[Niamh.]

Is this what you were talking about Vicky? Can't believe I side with Piers

Can't post the video directly for some reason


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKBE...MorningBritain

[Vicky.]

Yeah. I cannot believe this is even being considered. And yes, it feels very odd to be on Piers side..so very strange. Its just nonsensical really. Male and female are no longer actual things but are simply a feeling for one to 'self declare' and then the rest of the world has to buy into the 'brain sex/gender identity/soul' religion else be named bigoted. Its quite insulting tbh.

Since when has the right of some males to feel validated in their 'womanhood' been more important than the actual women who need to use these services as they are escaping (on the whole) abusive males. That its even being considered, seriously, is beyond belief.

I like that he brought up prisons (thats already happened and conitnues to happen) and sport also. Very important areas.

And for gods sake, I am so sick of the 'but lesbians' argument when it comes to male people. Its so ****ing homophobic. Lesbians are not men. Male lesbians do not exist, contrary to what the transcult would have you believe.

And of course transwomen require different services to actual women. 'I am a womaaaan' again from India

'You are impying transgender women are a threat'. Nah. Knowing that male people are a threat (on the whole, not all men and such) to female ones is not wrong. And this is about any man being able to declare himself a woman.

[Niamh.]

Its incredibly narcissistic aswell to fight for something that will make abuse victims uncomfortable and decide you're more important

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Its incredibly narcissistic aswell to fight for something that will make abuse victims uncomfortable and decide you're more important

Yeah this. I'm stunned that anyone would give her airtime for this even. It's totally unacceptable.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Yeah this. I'm stunned that anyone would give her airtime for this even. It's totally unacceptable.

This^

[Livia]

India has been a man for most of her life, she thinks like a man. She stated in that interview which was centred on the abuse of women, how sorry she feels for men. The other woman on the panel replied with statistics about how many women were murdered and raped last year but India talked right over the top of her.

And I agreed with Piers Morgan. Ladies, we are down the rabbit hole.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Its incredibly narcissistic aswell to fight for something that will make abuse victims uncomfortable and decide you're more important

Good point.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Its incredibly narcissistic aswell to fight for something that will make abuse victims uncomfortable and decide you're more important

Of course it is. And everyone will be able to see that surely..

The reason this all came about was because womens aid is talking about letting self identified women (note. No changes, just any male who says he is a woman) work in womens refuges. They already allow transgender women to use their services on a case by case basis.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

God point.

Freudian slip?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Freudian slip?

Hahahaaaaaaaa.... I thought I'd edited that before anyone saw, should have known you'd be too quick for me.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Hahahaaaaaaaa.... I thought I'd edited that before anyone saw, should have known you'd be too quick for me.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Of course it is. And everyone will be able to see that surely..

The reason this all came about was because womens aid is talking about letting self identified women (note. No changes, just any male who says he is a woman) work in womens refuges. They already allow transgender women to use their services on a case by case basis.

Like how caring and empathetic would you be towards the victims if you're willing to take the job in the first place that may straight away make them feel scared and intimidated

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Like how caring and empathetic would you be towards the victims if you're willing to take the job in the first place that may straight away make them feel scared and intimidated

Yup. Its just awful. And honestly, shame on womens aid for considering this. Unless they are considering it as they have already been threatened with being sued because they do not consider male people to be female of course. There was a case in canada where a trans identified male (post op transexual, which is slightly different, but still a male person) held a rape crisis centre up in litigation for 12 years and near bankrupted them, as they said they did not employ males.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimber...pe_Relief_Case

Wiki but has links.

Sorry, but anyone who would do this is an utter arsehole and clearly does not care about the people these places are meant to help.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Yup. Its just awful. And honestly, shame on womens aid for considering this. Unless they are considering it as they have already been threatened with being sued because they do not consider male people to be female of course. There was a case in canada where a trans identified male (post op transexual, which is slightly different, but still a male person) held a rape crisis centre up in litigation for 12 years and near bankrupted them, as they said they did not employ males.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimber...pe_Relief_Case

Wiki but has links.

Sorry, but anyone who would do this is an utter arsehole and clearly does not care about the people these places are meant to help.

For someone who shouts how they are a real woman all the time, she doesn't seem to have any understanding or camaraderie with us, she seems to take the side of men alot more. I mean she basically tried to down play abused womens needs for refuges there in that video by saying but men had a bad year too

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

For someone who shouts how they are a real woman all the time, she doesn't seem to have any understanding or camaraderie with us, she seems to take the side of men alot more. I mean she basically tried to down play abused womens needs for refuges there in that video by saying but men had a bad year too

Yup. This is usually the case tbh. Bring up the mass abuse of women by men and get a bunch of 'but women do it too' 'what about the men' 'but lesbians are just as bad' and so on. When its just not true (obviously women DO do it too, but not on such a scale), and shows a disturbing lack of empathy for the women in need of single sex spaces and utter disregard for women fullstop.

[Tom4784]

I don't think that, if you're pre-op, you should not be allowed into places that are restricted to the gender you haven't transitioned to yet.

I don't see a problem with post op trans people using women's shelters though.

[Saph]

I dont really see the problem either

[Greg!]

Post op I think it should be allowed as it's very likely a trans woman in a men's prison would be assaulted

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Saph

I dont really see the problem either

Its about 'self identified women'. Not transsexual people. Self identified means simply, saying you are a woman while being a man. I am not sure India was the best person to be talking to about this, given she is actually transsexual and post-op. Muddies the waters a bit.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Greg!

Post op I think it should be allowed as it's very likely a trans woman in a men's prison would be assaulted

And what about the women?

Prisons could surely be solved by a trans wing in a couple of them, given there are large numbers of people claiming they are trans in prison oddly enough. And sex offenders are massively over represented too among the trans prison population, much moreso than among the 'normal' male prison population actually.

Many kinds of men are at risk of assault in mens prisons. Disabled men, gay men, small men, feminine men. Should they all be put in with the women to make them safer?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Greg!

Post op I think it should be allowed as it's very likely a trans woman in a men's prison would be assaulted

The main topic was having men who decide they're women (with no operation or even diagnosis) working in womens domestic abuse refuges

[Vicky.]

Here is the story that sparked the debate

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/w...taff-3txhcr8mb

(will copy text for those not a mamber as its paywalled but you do get 2 articles a week free)

Spoiler:

Rape and abuse victims in women-only refuges face being looked after by biological men after England’s biggest group of women’s shelters decided to review its ban on transgender staff.

The move, which could overturn almost half a century of refuges being run by women for women, was described by some feminists last night as the most significant erosion of female spaces yet.

It comes after the government promised to consult on letting people change sex on demand. Activists insist that “self-declared” transgender women — most of whom retain male organs — should be allowed to enter and work in woman-only spaces.

Justine Greening, the former equalities minister who drove the sex-change reforms, admitted for the first time last night that the concerns of women’s groups must be taken more into account.

She told The Sunday Times she still supported change, but stressed that the government should be “absolutely listening to the voices of women’s groups in all this and their concerns”.

The review of women’s refuges, which is not dependent on any government reform, was agreed last week by the board of the charity Women’s Aid, a federation that oversees more than 300 shelters.

Mary Mason, the board’s interim co-chairwoman, said: “We have agreed to start a review of our whole transgender policy, including the possibility of employment for self-declared transgender women without a gender recognition certificate.”

Describing it as “an extraordinarily difficult discussion,” Mason said the review, by Women’s Aid’s director of services, Nicki Norman, would take three to four months. Another board member, Sarah Forster, confirmed the move.

Prominent feminists expressed concern at the development. “Recent victims of male violence need women-only spaces where they can feel safe from men,” said Stephanie Davies-Arai, of the campaign group Transgender Trend. “This risks retraumatising vulnerable and victimised women for the sake of ideology.”

Karen Ingala Smith, head of the women’s sexual and domestic violence charity NIA, said she was concerned.

“I hope refuge providers protect the ‘for women by women’ vision of the feminist survivors and activists who built the refuge movement.

“A women-only space is one of the ways we can create a sanctuary for women to begin their recovery from men’s violence. Women and children escaping violent men should at the very least be able to expect this of a refuge,” Smith added.

A rape victim who stayed in a Women’s Aid centre said: “I am terrified for other women if this happens. I went through a patch where I feared and could not bear the sight of any man. The wonderful support I got just could not have been provided by staff who, to all intents and purposes, are men.”

Women’s Aid stressed that local refuges would be fully consulted in the review and would still have a say over who they employed.

Refuges already allow trans women as clients, though they are permitted to exclude them on a case-by-case basis. Women’s Aid’s quality standards say its services must be “accessible to transgender women”.

Currently, staff who are on the premises all the time with access to all areas are not employed in refuges without a female birth certificate. All refuge job ads on the Women’s Aid website say the applicant must be a woman.

Only people born female — or who have gone through the Gender Recognition Act process to change sex — can get a woman’s birth certificate. The government promised to consult on making the process easier, but has delayed the consultation amid growing controversy over the issue.

Equalities legislation allows providers of single-sex services to discriminate where this is “a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim”.

Women’s groups also fear predatory men could use any change to access shelters. Such cases are rare but in Canada, a sex offender, Christopher Hambrook, posed as trans to obtain entry to shelters and commit attacks. This view was attacked by trans campaigner Sarah Brown, who said it “punishes vulnerable trans women for hypothetical acts of infiltration by men claiming to be trans women”.

[ethanjames]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I don't think that, if you're pre-op, you should not be allowed into places that are restricted to the gender you haven't transitioned to yet.

I don't see a problem with post op trans people using women's shelters though.

pretty much how I feel if they have a doctors diagnosis of gender dysphoria idk why not I mean they are women so

[Greg!]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

The main topic was having men who decide they're women (with no operation or even diagnosis) working in womens domestic abuse refuges

Oh right okay, didn't really read it properly

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by ethanjames

pretty much how I feel if they have a doctors diagnosis of gender dysphoria idk why not I mean they are women so

A diagnosis of gender dysphoria actually makes you the opposite sex?