[jaxie]

https://theconversation.com/how-iran...otesting-91439

I haven't seen a thread about this yet and it's interesting so I thought I'd start one with his article that gives a bit of the history.

Basically Iranian women have been protesting against the government by taking their hijabs off in public. It's quite ironic as wearing the hijab was also used as protest when the Shah was trying to reform and modernise the country before he was overthrown. So the whole thing has sort of come full circle.

As you know I am not a fan of religious uniforms like he hijab because I feel that the implication that a young woman is not modest because you can see her hair is incredibly mysogynistic and sexist. I find it quite moving that the young women in Iran are uncovering their hair to tell their government to back off with the control, particularly when there are moves in this country in some schools to force much younger girls to wear it.

Do others have any thoughts to share on this?

[y.winter]

I think it's a good thing, of course and I wish them well. Brave and dangerous.

[Niamh.]

I think this is where the protests against Hijabs etc should come from, those who wear them. Us in the west trying to force them to take them off is only doing what we're trying to stop.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I think this is where the protests against Hijabs etc should come from, those who wear them. Us in the west trying to force them to take them off is only doing what we're trying to stop.

But surely a line must be drawn with some primary school children being forced to wear it. Otherwise the message we are allowing little girls to have is that there is something wrong with them that needs covering while their brothers are perfect. That's pretty awful.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

But surely a line must be drawn with some primary school children being forced to wear it. Otherwise the message we are allowing little girls to have is that there is something wrong with them that needs covering while their brothers are perfect. That's pretty awful.

I don't disagree with you but I still think it needs to come from within that group for a real meaningful change to come about and I'm sure it will

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I don't disagree with you but I still think it needs to come from within that group for a real meaningful change to come about and I'm sure it will

I don't really understand the why of waiting it seems to give in to the demands perhaps forever for hard line imposers of Muslim dress on primary school children to get a clue. In my view as a country we can take this issue out of schools by saying that is unacceptable. What they do in their own time is their own problem. To say nothing seems so wrong.

The thing is, we wouldn't endorse children wearing say Nazi paraphernalia to school. So why must we pussy foot around religious groups that are promoting a misogynistic pov?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I don't really understand the why of waiting it seems to give in to the demands perhaps forever for hard line imposers of Muslim dress on primary school children to get a clue. In my view as a country we can take this issue out of schools by saying that is unacceptable. What they do in their own time is their own problem. To say nothing seems so wrong.

The thing is, we wouldn't endorse children wearing say Nazi paraphernalia to school. So why must we pussy foot around religious groups that are promoting a misogynistic pov?

I fervently believe that any Western country that wants to ban a garment that promotes inequality and contravenes its equality laws it should be banned. Those that choose to come and live here should respect that. If they don't they should live in a country where such views are shared - not to, at worst, try to force their views on the indigenous population or at best expect them to tolerate it. If the shoe were on the other foot it would be very different.

It is definely a step in the right direction when Muslim women stand up for themselves in this way. It also takes a lot of courage for women to do so in such a country and is an issue that should be addressed everywhere but of course it will have more significance when it is Muslim women themselves standing up to be counted. Good on them.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I don't really understand the why of waiting it seems to give in to the demands perhaps forever for hard line imposers of Muslim dress on primary school children to get a clue. In my view as a country we can take this issue out of schools by saying that is unacceptable. What they do in their own time is their own problem. To say nothing seems so wrong.

The thing is, we wouldn't endorse children wearing say Nazi paraphernalia to school. So why must we pussy foot around religious groups that are promoting a misogynistic pov?

I don't think comparing Nazis and Muslims is really a fair comparison tbh however much i agree with your opinions on Hijabs and misogyny within religion (which isn't just in the Muslim religion tbf)

[Livia]

The women taking part in this are incredibly brave. What other religion makes women cover themselves from head to toe.... because if a man gets lustful, it's the woman's fault? The same religion that encouraged the FGM of over 200 million women alive today, with 3 million girls at risk every year. Hard to believe in 2018. I'm not anti-Muslim, I'm pro-women. And Niamh's right, I think, that the fightback must start with the Muslim women themselves.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I don't think comparing Nazis and Muslims is really a fair comparison tbh however much i agree with your opinions on Hijabs and misogyny within religion (which isn't just in the Muslim religion tbf)

Well to be fair I didn't say it was 'just' the muslim religion, but the conversation started about the movement in Iran so this particular conversation is in fact about that religion.

No disrespect to you personally but your post reminds me of that little moment of embarrassment when some people say oh I like Ann as a housemate but I don't agree with her views. Or when politicians say I voted remain but I support Brexit. As if its some dirty little little opinion that I support but have to make clear 'its not really me'.

I have no racist views about any people, I'm talking about the specific point of children at primary school wearing religious uniform in school and the hijab in general. Why do people do that little embarrassed disclaimer thing?

I'm not comparing Nazi's to Muslims, I'm comparing wearing racist paraphernalia to the misogyny of thinking a little girl has something wrong with her that she needs covering.

I'm asking why one is unacceptable and the other causes this awkward well we can't condemn muslims? I have never once said 'all muslims are bad' etc. I have said that forcing little girls into religious uniform is giving the message they are somehow tainted and need covering. What is wrong with that?

[Niamh.]

No disrespect to you personally but your post reminds me of that little moment of embarrassment when some people say oh I like Ann as a housemate but I don't agree with her views.

What is the problem with saying that? I'm sure I did say that btw, I do like her as a HM but alot of her opinions are s**t I don't see what point you're trying to make here?

[arista]

Originally Posted by y.winter

I think it's a good thing, of course and I wish them well. Brave and dangerous.

Some have been arrested , sadly.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

No disrespect to you personally but your post reminds me of that little moment of embarrassment when some people say oh I like Ann as a housemate but I don't agree with her views.

What is the problem with saying that? I'm sure I did say that btw, I do like her as a HM but alot of her opinions are s**t I don't see what point you're trying to make here?

I don't know, but it strikes a chord with me like people are saying well I like this person or I agree with this but my peers will think I'm like her if I don't do a disclaimer. Or something. I'm not really sure where it comes from or what motivates it. I've even followed along and done it myself to a degree with Ann I think on a few posts and then wondered why I did that.

I suppose in the post where I picked up on it, it makes me feel like somewhere you are afraid there is something wrong with what I'm saying, or that people will view it that way so although you kind of agree you need to disclaim it so you don't appear as bad?

I'm not picking on you Naimh so don't take it that way, I just notice people doing that a lot over Brexit and more recently Ann and I suppose I think it's worth mentioning or asking about. Like is there a reason why people do that?

I mean if you said you liked Ann as a housemate I wouldn't take that as an admission that you agree with everything she ever said and did in her life and every vote she made in parliament.

If you said you support the governments position on Brexit I don't really need to know that you didn't vote for it.

Anyway are we going a bit off topic here and likely to get a spanking?

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Livia

The women taking part in this are incredibly brave. What other religion makes women cover themselves from head to toe.... because if a man gets lustful, it's the woman's fault? The same religion that encouraged the FGM of over 200 million women alive today, with 3 million girls at risk every year. Hard to believe in 2018. I'm not anti-Muslim, I'm pro-women. And Niamh's right, I think, that the fightback must start with the Muslim women themselves.

That's a wonderful post Livia but I think when it comes down to primary school children as young as seven it's up to us a country to say that school is not the place for religious dress. Even the Quran says puberty.

IDK maybe I was an odd little girl but if I was told I had to cover my hair at 7 to be modest I would have wanted to know why Jessica Brown didn't cover hers and what was wrong with my hair that wasn't wrong with hers and why brothers hair was ok and mine wasn't. It seems an awful burden to put on a child.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I don't know, but it strikes a chord with me like people are saying well I like this person or I agree with this but my peers will think I'm like her if I don't do a disclaimer. Or something. I'm not really sure where it comes from or what motivates it. I've even followed along and done it myself to a degree with Ann I think on a few posts and then wondered why I did that.

I suppose in the post where I picked up on it, it makes me feel like somewhere you are afraid there is something wrong with what I'm saying, or that people will view it that way so although you kind of agree you need to disclaim it so you don't appear as bad?

I'm not picking you Naimh so don't take it that way, I just notice people doing that a lot over Brexit and more recently Ann and I suppose I think it's worth mentioning or asking about. Like is there a reason why people do that?

I mean if you said you liked Ann as a housemate I wouldn't take that as an admission that you agree with everything she ever said and did in her life and every vote she made in parliament.

If you said you support the governments position on Brexit I don't really need to know that you didn't vote for it.

Anyway are we going a bit off topic here and likely to get a spanking?

Well I know exactly the reason why I would have said that re Ann, it's because I do think alot of her opinions are horrendous and I want to make it clear where my stance on that is?

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Well I know exactly the reason why I would have said that re Ann, it's because I do think alot of her opinions are horrendous and I want to make it clear where my stance on that is?

I get what you are saying. I guess I'm trying to say that I wouldn't have thought that you were an ardent supporter of all her views if you didn't say that. I don't think one necessarily goes hand in hand with the other. IDK if I'm making sense.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I get what you are saying. I guess I'm trying to say that I wouldn't have thought that you were an ardent supporter of all her views if you didn't say that. I don't think one necessarily goes hand in hand with the other. IDK if I'm making sense.

Ok but why am I not allowed say that anyway?

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Ok but why am I not allowed say that anyway?

Of course you are. I'm sorry I didn't mean to single you out specifically, it just struck me with your post that people do that a lot with Ann and Brexit other things and it made me feel slightly uncomfortable. So I remarked on it.

[parmnion]

Why all the fuss now? Iranian women have been protesting this for over 20yrs now.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Of course you are. I'm sorry I didn't mean to single you out specifically, it just struck me with your post that people do that a lot with Ann and Brexit other things and it made me feel slightly uncomfortable. So I remarked on it.

I still have no idea why other people wanting to make their stance on certain issues clear would make you feel uncomfortable though

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I still have no idea why other people wanting to make their stance on certain issues clear would make you feel uncomfortable though

Oh well in that particular post it felt like you were saying well yeah I do agree with you but that you needed a disclaimer because I'm shady on the subject and you aren't or something. That was how it struck me anyway, I'm not saying that was your intent.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Oh well in that particular post it felt like you were saying well yeah I do agree with you but that you needed a disclaimer because I'm shady on the subject and you aren't or something. That was how it struck me anyway, I'm not saying that was your intent.

No, I was giving my opinions on it which I thought was the purpose of the thread? I never said you were "shady" I just agreed with some of what you said but not everything, disagreeing with someone doesn't mean you think they're shady

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

No, I was giving my opinions on it which I thought was the purpose of the thread? I never said you were "shady" I just agreed with some of what you said but not everything, disagreeing with someone doesn't mean you think they're shady

Moving on, if you haven't seen it, the girl in the river documentary I posted the other day is very well made and interesting, not about hijab but about honour killing.

[Northern Monkey]

Good on them.Proper feminists with a real cause.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Well to be fair I didn't say it was 'just' the muslim religion, but the conversation started about the movement in Iran so this particular conversation is in fact about that religion.

No disrespect to you personally but your post reminds me of that little moment of embarrassment when some people say oh I like Ann as a housemate but I don't agree with her views. Or when politicians say I voted remain but I support Brexit. As if its some dirty little little opinion that I support but have to make clear 'its not really me'.

I have no racist views about any people, I'm talking about the specific point of children at primary school wearing religious uniform in school and the hijab in general. Why do people do that little embarrassed disclaimer thing?

I'm not comparing Nazi's to Muslims, I'm comparing wearing racist paraphernalia to the misogyny of thinking a little girl has something wrong with her that she needs covering.

I'm asking why one is unacceptable and the other causes this awkward well we can't condemn muslims? I have never once said 'all muslims are bad' etc. I have said that forcing little girls into religious uniform is giving the message they are somehow tainted and need covering. What is wrong with that?

I do know what you mean by this.
Politicians are doing it all the time in Brexit debates and it does get annoying.
Everytime They’re asked a question it’s “well as you know..I was obviously a remainer....blah blah blah”