[Marsh.]

Not Cherie laying bait and catching someone?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Not Cherie laying bait and catching someone?

[jet]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

This thread amounts to little more than "Well let me tell you sonny, in my day..."

Cold hard facts time: it's not "your day" any more, just like "your day" wasn't a Victorian workhouse, and just like the victorian work house wasn't hunting wild game with sharpened sticks.

Relative poverty is relative poverty, and just because (you believe) you "had it rly hard back then and these young uns don't know they're born!" does not mean that anyone living in relative poverty today has it GOOD.

No, you didn't have central heating in every house me "back then". Do you know what else you didn't have? People getting themselves into huge amounts of unsecured personal debt in order to pay their rent and not lose their home, central heated or otherwise. And then you also didn't have interconnected, computerised credit files attached to that debt. "Back I the day" you could live in relative poverty and then find yourself on the up, with a fresh slate, at any time. Today's working poor have creditors banging down the door, interest payments and fines mounting day on day, and an electronic record of all of this that makes it a very real possibility that they will never, ever be able to escape that cycle and there is no such thing as a fresh slate.

You didn't have the same sort of benefits system - but you also didn't live in an economy where wages don't even cover a month's rent on their own, never mind a jam sandwich on top of that.

No one is saying that people have ever "had it easy" but honestly... Stop trying to pretend that having to "make your way" 40 years ago means that you have any idea, at all, of the issues that face people on low incomes today. I'm sure it's very easy to see modern luxuries and think "Oh lol they don't know wot poor means!" and laugh your little socks off, while kids in their 20's are literally killing themselves because they've found themselves under a mountain of debt that will follow them until the day they die.

Thats what you're missing here. You didn't "moan as much" back then because for most people, if not everyone, knuckling down and working your way out was a realistic possibility. Young people today are completely lacking in any sort of hope or optimism, a horrendous existence for anyone, and do people recognise that this is a huge and tragic problem? No, the young find themselves just like in this thread, laughed at and belittled by older generations who see themselves as being somehow stronger and more resilient. Who not only lack understanding, but have a stubborn and smug avoidance of any understanding. Who look at a depressed, hopeless young person and can only see all of their modern conveniences and think "lol pathetic!" instead of "how can we help young people to have hope and ambition again?"

But by all means continue to pat yourselves on the back, for what, I'm not quite sure. It's hugely beneficial to society. Rly.

Oh for goodness sake, stop this pity party. What age are you, TS? (That's not a sarcastic comment, I genuinely want to know). Many of us in our 50's have known more hardship and back breaking work and despair and poverty than the young ones of today can even imagine. Yes, they currently have it hard, but that doesn't mean you can denigrate the older generation who have also had it hard and know that you can come through it in the fullness of time.
It's not being smug to pass on our experiences, it's saying hope is there - we went through it, so can you. Your post smacks of hopelessness and bitterness and gives in to depressing pessimism and 'I'm owed this- ery and that -ery and why don't I have it'!! What message does that achieve? - lie down and die, it's hopelessness all round?
Well NO, it is not - not when I was young and not now! The future is all before you - with all its promises of better times down the line. Today does not define all your tomorrows.

I always find that the more optimistic you are, the more you realise what you already have and the more good luck finds you. It's worked for me.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Indeed. If the "older generations didn't moan much back in the day!" I have to seriously question what's changed since then... Because a lot of them don't half enjoy moaning about absolutely anything and everything today.

True, I can't count the amount of times I've been called down from the office to deal with some irate customer whining over something ultimately inconsequential and they are almost always older people. On Wednesday I literally had abuse from a woman because SHE missed a promotion and she wanted us to extend it just for her. Most of the time I get called down because an older person is having a tantrum over the fact that we haven't got something in stock, when you tell them you can order it in for them for the next day they screech it's not good enough, when you recommend that sell it, half the time you'll get abuse because they don't want to go anywhere else, they just expect you to pull what they want out of thin air.

I.ve seen bad customers of all ages and sizes but most customer complaints tend to come from people of older generations moaning about things no one can control. You can't say that people in older generations never moan about anything and they just got on with things because anyone that has ever worked in retail know differently.

The reality is that people have always complained about the present while romanticising the past. Nostalgia is dangerous when you use it to to push issues of the present under the rug.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

True, I can't count the amount of times I've been called down from the office to deal with some irate customer whining over something ultimately inconsequential and they are almost always older people. On Wednesday I literally had abuse from a woman because SHE missed a promotion and she wanted us to extend it just for her. Most of the time I get called down because an older person is having a tantrum over the fact that we haven't got something in stock, when you tell them you can order it in for them for the next day they screech it's not good enough, when you recommend that sell it, half the time you'll get abuse because they don't want to go anywhere else, they just expect you to pull what they want out of thin air.

I.ve seen bad customers of all ages and sizes but most customer complaints tend to come from people of older generations moaning about things no one can control. You can't say that people in older generations never moan about anything and they just got on with things because anyone that has ever worked in retail know differently.

The reality is that people have always complained about the present while romanticising the past. Nostalgia is dangerous when you use it to to push issues of the present under the rug.

You are off topic. This thread isn't about customer complaints.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

What I actually said was, the way to climb out of a depression and stagnation (created by the 2008 crisis not immigration) is by stimulating growth. After the world crash our national debt soured to 87% of GDP. After WW2 it stood at 243%. One of the first things Clement Attlee did was build the NHS.

A recession is not a time to start putting money in the piggy bank and making cuts that cripple future Growth. This isn't home economics, its a government that owes its debt to The Bank of England of which it owns. In other words, the Ł453 billion it borrowed to help pay off the debt was borrowed from itself and therefore could of been written off.

Instead it chose massive cuts on its nation and those cuts have created further economic stagnation.

I have NOT referred to you or your posts in this thread???

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Its an odd thing. I said

Kirk then quoted me and said

which was an odd thing to say as it had absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

You then agree with him which means you either didn't read what I said or just want to tag team.

All you lot are trying to do is kill a debate with glib sarcasms that have nothing to do with what this thread is about.

I have NOT quoted you on this thread?????

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Livia

There won't be any poor left in London once they've shipped them all out to make way for more gentrification, more hipsters, more wealthy people, more Russians... The East End used to have a culture all of its own but it's been destroyed bit by bit.

So TRUE Liv.

London is a 'FOREIGN COUNTRY to most people in the North and has been for a very long time.

Stanley Holloway, The 'Crazy Gang', Pearly Kings and Queens and The Lambeth Walk are but 'Museum Pieces', distant memories and the culture that spawned them is no more.

[Ammi]

...I don’t feel the younger generation of today, have anything easier...by definition of being younger they have yet to ‘achieve’ in terms of work and careers...there are specific things with each generation, which hadn’t applied so much to the generation before etc...so not easier, just different is all, I think...more younger people now have the opportunity of going to uni and achieving more academics...but the high price they’ve paid for that ‘priveledge’ is their debts before their working life has even started...and for many, sadly...any academic achievements won’t secure a higher earning job...there are many younger people who leave uni and have long periods of unemployment...or are presented with job opportunities...which would still have been presented had they not gone to uni and not incurred their debts...so there is a huge ‘deflation’ there for younger people of today...that their time in education feels ‘pointless’, which increases the ‘weight’ felt by the educutaupion debt...but with a lack of apprenticeships etc in the present day...the alternatives are not there so much...

...deteriating and poor mental health is increasing in younger people, so they definately don’t feel ‘priveledged’ in any way...many feel a sense of ‘hopelessness’......for those who are not fortunate enough to be able to secure a job and an income...the benefit system of today is not as ‘easy’ as previous generations, I would say...younger people often spend more time living with parents because salaries often don’t increase and stay in line with inflation../...house prices etc...and when they are able to leave home to achieve independance...I think it’s more and more that younger people have to move great distances away from friends and family etc ...so they don’t have the ‘family unit’ support in the same way either...we do have great communication with technology etc in this day though...but it’s still hard for them ...suicide rates seem to be ever increasing with younger people...yeah problems and issues are just different in each younger generation... not better or worse, I don’t think...but the only ones we can address are the ones of today, to try and make the future feel less ‘hopeless’ to so many young people...’we survived’ as it were.....so it’s ensuring that our children do too....not just survive though, but grow and expand and progress also and feel a sense of worth and value...so that the next generation can be moaned at and etc, etc...

[Ammi]

..in terms of the ‘great depression’...was that not always predicted with a Brexit vote...by all who have financial knowledge in these things..?...it was always an inevitably, is what was always said...although the ‘depth’ would be unknown and not so easy to predict...how ‘great’ it would be...

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Indeed. If the "older generations didn't moan much back in the day!" I have to seriously question what's changed since then... Because a lot of them don't half enjoy moaning about absolutely anything and everything today.

Careful TS you’re almost the older generation yourself in your mid-30s. 35 is official middle-age. The mid-life crisis can do funny things to people.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I have NOT quoted you on this thread?????

My apologies. I've just re-read through the post and see it wasn't me.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I don’t feel the younger generation of today, have anything easier...by definition of being younger they have yet to ‘achieve’ in terms of work and careers...there are specific things with each generation, which hadn’t applied so much to the generation before etc...so not easier, just different is all, I think...more younger people now have the opportunity of going to uni and achieving more academics...but the high price they’ve paid for that ‘priveledge’ is their debts before their working life has even started...and for many, sadly...any academic achievements won’t secure a higher earning job...there are many younger people who leave uni and have long periods of unemployment...or are presented with job opportunities...which would still have been presented had they not gone to uni and not incurred their debts...so there is a huge ‘deflation’ there for younger people of today...that their time in education feels ‘pointless’, which increases the ‘weight’ felt by the educutaupion debt...but with a lack of apprenticeships etc in the present day...the alternatives are not there so much...

...deteriating and poor mental health is increasing in younger people, so they definately don’t feel ‘priveledged’ in any way...many feel a sense of ‘hopelessness’......for those who are not fortunate enough to be able to secure a job and an income...the benefit system of today is not as ‘easy’ as previous generations, I would say...younger people often spend more time living with parents because salaries often don’t increase and stay in line with inflation../...house prices etc...and when they are able to leave home to achieve independance...I think it’s more and more that younger people have to move great distances away from friends and family etc ...so they don’t have the ‘family unit’ support in the same way either...we do have great communication with technology etc in this day though...but it’s still hard for them ...suicide rates seem to be ever increasing with younger people...yeah problems and issues are just different in each younger generation... not better or worse, I don’t think...but the only ones we can address are the ones of today, to try and make the future feel less ‘hopeless’ to so many young people...’we survived’ as it were.....so it’s ensuring that our children do too....not just survive though, but grow and expand and progress also and feel a sense of worth and value...so that the next generation can be moaned at and etc, etc...

Both you and TS have made some very realistic posts.

Thank you both.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..in terms of the ‘great depression’...was that not always predicted with a Brexit vote...by all who have financial knowledge in these things..?...it was always an inevitably, is what was always said...although the ‘depth’ would be unknown and not so easy to predict...how ‘great’ it would be...

Austerity has created stagnation. Its nearly a decade since the collapse of the banks and we are on the brink of them collapsing again because austerity has allowed those rescued banks to continue (in tenfold) with the cause and effect of the last crash. Meanwhile we, because of he pull on austerity, have seen little stable growth compared to pre-crash norms. This means as we head towards Brexit we, as a country, are in a weak position.

We've had the slowest recovery from recession for over a hundred years and Brexit may be the thing that pushes us over a cliff.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Austerity has created stagnation. Its nearly a decade since the collapse of the banks and we are on the brink of them collapsing again because austerity has allowed those rescued banks to continue (in tenfold) with the cause and effect of the last crash. Meanwhile we, because of he pull on austerity, have seen little stable growth compared to pre-crash norms. This means as we head towards Brexit we, as a country, are in a weak position.

We've had the slowest recovery from recession for over a hundred years and Brexit may be the thing that pushes us over a cliff.

Didn't you vote out though

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by jet

Oh for goodness sake, stop this pity party. What age are you, TS? (That's not a sarcastic comment, I genuinely want to know). Many of us in our 50's have known more hardship and back breaking work and despair and poverty than the young ones of today can even imagine. Yes, they currently have it hard, but that doesn't mean you can denigrate the older generation who have also had it hard and know that you can come through it in the fullness of time.
It's not being smug to pass on our experiences, it's saying hope is there - we went through it, so can you. Your post smacks of hopelessness and bitterness and gives in to depressing pessimism and 'I'm owed this- ery and that -ery and why don't I have it'!! What message does that achieve? - lie down and die, it's hopelessness all round?
Well NO, it is not - not when I was young and not now! The future is all before you - with all its promises of better times down the line. Today does not define all your tomorrows.

I always find that the more optimistic you are, the more you realise what you already have and the more good luck finds you. It's worked for me.

Fantastic post Jet.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Didn't you vote out though

Yes I did and it was short sighted.

When I voted out, I desperately wanted to disable the TTIP because the thought of that really frightens me. It was disabled but now May's come up with something similar just for us, which is equally frightening.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Fantastic post Jet.

I second that. Jet has a way of getting to the point with absolute clarity. I very much enjoy reading his posts.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by jet

You are off topic. This thread isn't about customer complaints.

I was replying to TS' point that, unlike what's been said by others, moaning is not exclusive to younger generations. My post is on topic.

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

This thread amounts to little more than "Well let me tell you sonny, in my day..."

Cold hard facts time: it's not "your day" any more, just like "your day" wasn't a Victorian workhouse, and just like the victorian work house wasn't hunting wild game with sharpened sticks.

Relative poverty is relative poverty, and just because (you believe) you "had it rly hard back then and these young uns don't know they're born!" does not mean that anyone living in relative poverty today has it GOOD.

No, you didn't have central heating in every house me "back then". Do you know what else you didn't have? People getting themselves into huge amounts of unsecured personal debt in order to pay their rent and not lose their home, central heated or otherwise. And then you also didn't have interconnected, computerised credit files attached to that debt. "Back I the day" you could live in relative poverty and then find yourself on the up, with a fresh slate, at any time. Today's working poor have creditors banging down the door, interest payments and fines mounting day on day, and an electronic record of all of this that makes it a very real possibility that they will never, ever be able to escape that cycle and there is no such thing as a fresh slate.

You didn't have the same sort of benefits system - but you also didn't live in an economy where wages don't even cover a month's rent on their own, never mind a jam sandwich on top of that.

No one is saying that people have ever "had it easy" but honestly... Stop trying to pretend that having to "make your way" 40 years ago means that you have any idea, at all, of the issues that face people on low incomes today. I'm sure it's very easy to see modern luxuries and think "Oh lol they don't know wot poor means!" and laugh your little socks off, while kids in their 20's are literally killing themselves because they've found themselves under a mountain of debt that will follow them until the day they die.

Thats what you're missing here. You didn't "moan as much" back then because for most people, if not everyone, knuckling down and working your way out was a realistic possibility. Young people today are completely lacking in any sort of hope or optimism, a horrendous existence for anyone, and do people recognise that this is a huge and tragic problem? No, the young find themselves just like in this thread, laughed at and belittled by older generations who see themselves as being somehow stronger and more resilient. Who not only lack understanding, but have a stubborn and smug avoidance of any understanding. Who look at a depressed, hopeless young person and can only see all of their modern conveniences and think "lol pathetic!" instead of "how can we help young people to have hope and ambition again?"

But by all means continue to pat yourselves on the back, for what, I'm not quite sure. It's hugely beneficial to society. Rly.

Ive said that...but hey i was unemployed or unemployable in the 80s..living on 40 pound a week...i sat hungry and shivering daily...

Now im no better than minimum wage yet here i am on a train coming back from my 2nd trip to scotland this year..i will be popping the heating on this evening, and will probably have a beer...its all down to not feeling like i need to have this or have that..for me anyway.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Ive said that...but hey i was unemployed or unemployable in the 80s..living on 40 pound a week...i sat hungry and shivering daily...

Now im no better than minimum wage yet here i am on a train coming back from my 2nd trip to scotland this year..i will be popping the heating on this evening, and will probably have a beer...its all down to not feeling like i need to have this or have that..for me anyway.

Well your alright jack, no need to worry then.

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Well your alright jack, no need to worry then.

Imo there wouldnt be anything to worry about if everyone lived within thier own meens.


Ie, not moving from another country all the way to london if you havnt got a life sorted...or taking crack and chuffing fags whilst you wait on the phone to get your latest loan from the dole to pay for drink n drugs..or as some put it..a new washing machine
.

Ps, maybe ask me how i manage to be ok jack, rather than the belittling pish.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Imo there wouldnt be anything to worry about if everyone lived within thier own meens.


Ie, not moving from another country all the way to london if you havnt got a life sorted...or taking crack and chuffing fags whilst you wait on the phone to get your latest loan from the dole to pay for drink n drugs..or as some put it..a new washing machine
.

Ps, maybe ask me how i manage to be ok jack, rather than the belittling pish.

What if you are born there and grew up in poverty? Got a job as a cleaner, maybe you aren't that bright and working up ladders isn't an option?
My argument was what of those people...

How easy was it for you to find a place to live then, you are just not being objective enough. As you said you were feckless when you were young, that isn't an option now, if your feckless there's no safety net to cradle you till you get your **** together like you did.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

That said that has nothing to do with the topic which is austerity, the cost of living and cuts that is unprecedented in modern times.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Imo there wouldnt be anything to worry about if everyone lived within thier own meens.


Ie, not moving from another country all the way to london if you havnt got a life sorted...or taking crack and chuffing fags whilst you wait on the phone to get your latest loan from the dole to pay for drink n drugs..or as some put it..a new washing machine
.

Ps, maybe ask me how i manage to be ok jack, rather than the belittling pish.

So you want to make this about immigrants... thought you might!

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

So you want to make this about immigrants... thought you might!

Maybe quote that bit next time then....but yes i firmly believe that the huge influx of immigrants into this country is the one, and ONLY reason this country has started to struggle...

But you probably thought i might have said that..
Just like i think a lot about you, but i tend to keep it to myself cause im not a rude person.