[y.winter]

I wouldn't say transphobic as there was nothing "phobic" against trans.
While it wasn't the best of statements from Anne (and I don't know much about her) - She did use to be a boy (not an opinion), for the sake of the argument she was "on the other side" like women might base their argument on being on the discriminated side.
Was it necessary or meant to support a serious debate about these things? there wasn't much of a thought behind it. People say stuff...
If it's a discussion about gender issues - Anne brings the fact of being herself a woman, like Paris bringing the fact that she's a transwoman to the table (and it's something that India has discussed on CBB21 - changing sides from the "oppressive" gender to the "oppressed" gender, which is a valid point).

[Kizzy]

It comes to something doesn't it when women are immediately oppressive as soon as a man says 'I'm a woman now'... no, you're not.

[chuff me dizzy]

I dont think she said anything wrong

[Northern Monkey]

I think this person of trans origin should stop being such a snowflake and grow some balls.Take it on the chin.
I don’t think old Frosty Drawers meant any harm.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

I think this person of trans origin should stop being such a snowflake and grow some balls.Take it on the chin.
I don’t think old Frosty Drawers meant any harm.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

I think this person of trans origin should stop being such a snowflake and grow some balls.Take it on the chin.
I don’t think old Frosty Drawers meant any harm.

Bwaahaaaa I spit my coffee!

[Toy Soldier]

You know... I'm not going to say that it isn't a topic that needs to be up for debate - but I have to say, it sort of seems like trans people are becoming the "accepted targets of vitriol", and I've noticed it especially on here.

Is that not worrying to anyone else? Several of the posts on this thread would not be accepted if they were directed at any other group and - let's call a spade a spade here - that's almost entirely down the the moderator's personal opinions and prejudices. Sort it out, guys. Some sort of consistency.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You know... I'm not going to say that it isn't a topic that needs to be up for debate - but I have to say, it sort of seems like trans people are becoming the "accepted targets of vitriol", and I've noticed it especially on here.

Is that not worrying to anyone else? Several of the posts on this thread would not be accepted if they were directed at any other group and - let's call a spade a spade here - that's almost entirely down the the moderator's personal opinions and prejudices. Sort it out, guys. Some sort of consistency.

You're braver than me for saying this but I have to agree with you. Some of the things that have been said about trans people on here recently are quite depressing.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You know... I'm not going to say that it isn't a topic that needs to be up for debate - but I have to say, it sort of seems like trans people are becoming the "accepted targets of vitriol", and I've noticed it especially on here.

Is that not worrying to anyone else? Several of the posts on this thread would not be accepted if they were directed at any other group and - let's call a spade a spade here - that's almost entirely down the the moderator's personal opinions and prejudices. Sort it out, guys. Some sort of consistency.

A moderator's role though is not really to play thought police, which is what we are getting into when we are starting to hand select what is "unacceptable" conversation versus what isn't. It should only be to manage discussions so that they topics don't fall entirely apart and to moderate for obvious baiting and incendiary behavior. SD is a boiler room, and I think that that will never change. The goal should be to moderate as little as possible. (anything else is "curation"). And sometimes less is done of what is needed because of the thin line between censorship and guiding discussion... otherwise it'll turn into a cliquey turf war.

I'm still for creating a relationships/LGBT/humanities section, as I think this forum really needs it. It will help alleviate the pressure I think. In which case, I nominate Jamie89 for President of said section.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You know... I'm not going to say that it isn't a topic that needs to be up for debate - but I have to say, it sort of seems like trans people are becoming the "accepted targets of vitriol", and I've noticed it especially on here.

Is that not worrying to anyone else? Several of the posts on this thread would not be accepted if they were directed at any other group and - let's call a spade a spade here - that's almost entirely down the the moderator's personal opinions and prejudices. Sort it out, guys. Some sort of consistency.

I agree with the first paragraph, I'm not sure if its the mods' personal prejudices though - its just a lack of consistency.

Its like theres some sort of heirachy. You can be a little bit transphobic or islamophobic, just no sexism or homophobia.. racism is somewhere in the middle. Idgi either.

[smudgie]

It's all this "Branding" that gets on my tits.
Everything has to be have a label, be a this or a that.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

If so I’m in the right place as the forum is full of them. Takes on to know one.

Grow up.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..that’s the thing though, Marsh...(..obviously it can’t be completely generalised because some Aspergers do have excellent debating skills..)...but ‘debating skills’ is not something generally associated with Aspergers...so yeah, those skills were not shown in a good light...because for her it would be more..a quick, sharp, ‘truth’.../type response and thought...the ‘strength’ that’s more ‘typical’ and would be shown in The Chase as a chaser, something she excels at I believe...a little cynic in me feels, well they would know that in having her as a guest on a debate show...and maybe hoping for a ‘controversial’ remark...and hey, we’re back in the news, guys...Anne did that, that’s what we hoped for...she didn’t let us down...Oooops...

Absolutely.

The Wright Stuff is horrible in that sense. Like last week when they were goading Iain Lee about his personal life after he specifically asked them beforehand he wasn't there to talk about it. The media can be a vile cesspit.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Grow up.

When you do.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by y.winter

I wouldn't say transphobic as there was nothing "phobic" against trans.
While it wasn't the best of statements from Anne (and I don't know much about her) - She did use to be a boy (not an opinion), for the sake of the argument she was "on the other side" like women might base their argument on being on the discriminated side.
Was it necessary or meant to support a serious debate about these things? there wasn't much of a thought behind it. People say stuff...
If it's a discussion about gender issues - Anne brings the fact of being herself a woman, like Paris bringing the fact that she's a transwoman to the table (and it's something that India has discussed on CBB21 - changing sides from the "oppressive" gender to the "oppressed" gender, which is a valid point).

She didn't say it as though to say "You used to be a boy, you weren't always on the oppressed gender" she said it as though as a boy she would know all about the "boy's club" (ie. the patriarchy) as though every male is the enemy.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You know... I'm not going to say that it isn't a topic that needs to be up for debate - but I have to say, it sort of seems like trans people are becoming the "accepted targets of vitriol", and I've noticed it especially on here.

Is that not worrying to anyone else? Several of the posts on this thread would not be accepted if they were directed at any other group and - let's call a spade a spade here - that's almost entirely down the the moderator's personal opinions and prejudices. Sort it out, guys. Some sort of consistency.

What... Where

Where are they the accepted targets of vitriol on here?
Exactly what would be so unacceptable, if you take issue with a comment quote it then it might highlight any discrepancy that's been overlooked by every moderator and the rest of the forum.

[Matthew.]

not necessarily transphobic, just an ill-timed comment and i certainly don’t think she meant any malice by it.

as previously said, anne has aspergers syndrome. so she sometimes doesn’t think before speaking. transphobic is not the right word here.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

It comes to something doesn't it when women are immediately oppressive as soon as a man says 'I'm a woman now'... no, you're not.

There's one Kizzy. That was easy enough.

Maru: that's why I said A) that I am perfectly willing to agree that it's open for reasonable, considered debate and also B) that my main concern is consistency.

There isn't just a sharing of beliefs when it comes to this topic... There's some quite clear anger, and mocking, when it comes to "blokes pretending to be women" that simply isn't accepted when it comes to other topics and the main reason it's accepted is because Vicky, and to a lesser extent Niamh, the most active SD mods, have (fairly recently) been expressing open cynicism and anger towards the very concept of transsexualism. Frankly, Vicky is more or less the worst for the "blokes in frocks prancing about pretending to be real women!!" type comments.

And like I said, it wouldn't be accepted against other groups. My problem is the double standards.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

When you do.

So childish.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

There's one Kizzy. That was easy enough.

Maru: that's why I said A) that I am perfectly willing to agree that it's open for reasonable, considered debate and also B) that my main concern is consistency.

There isn't just a sharing of beliefs when it comes to this topic... There's some quite clear anger, and mocking, when it comes to "blokes pretending to be women" that simply isn't accepted when it comes to other topics and the main reason it's accepted is because Vicky, and to a lesser extent Niamh, the most active SD mods, have (fairly recently) been expressing open cynicism and anger towards the very concept of transsexualism. Frankly, Vicky is more or less the worst for the "blokes in frocks prancing about pretending to be real women!!" type comments.

And like I said, it wouldn't be accepted against other groups. My problem is the double standards.

What a surprise... If you have an issue in the future just quote me don't be making out the whole forum has some kind of prejudice because you have taken exception to one comment.

There isn't anger from me, I have said many times personally I don't believe blokes can be women...female yes, women no.

I don't know how you can equate an opinion on transpeople to that of any other topic such as racism the two are not even nearly comparable.
I'll go further and refer you back to a comment you made on gaming... do you remember that conversation when you suggested I wasn't qualified to have an opinion on games or gaming?.... I'll find it if needs be.

I'm wondering now, if I didn't have the relevant experience to participate in that discussion then what credentials do you have to suggest that my opinion on this topic, that I have a lifetime of experience in to be 'wrong'?

[Marsh.]

Thinking someone can't hold an educated opinion on something because of a lack of understanding/research on something is different to saying they can't understand something because of their genitalia.

That's the difference between TS' stance that you weren't "qualified" to fully have an opinion on that games debate versus Anne insinuating this other woman couldn't hold an opinion simply because she used to have a penis I would imagine.

And before I get pushed into a corner and threatened with my life, that's just my understanding of the situation.

[DemolitionRed]

Being close to someone who is trans female to male, I know how hurt he (and yes he is a 'he') would be if someone said to him, "you should know, you were once female" especially if that comment was in front of a public audience. Knowing how desperate he was to become a male (though he's not completely re-assigned yet). The hysterectomy, the mastectomy, the hormone regime and the coming out I feel for him every time I hear people mocking transgenders on here.
For him its somewhat easier because as his hips fell away and his beard grew, his voice deepened and his whole persona took on a very muscular appearance. For men who transition its much more difficult. The voice often remains deep, the Adams still protrudes, the facial features often look masculine and the hips don't grow and I think because of all those things they are less accepted. They are still seen as a c**k in a frock and people don't take them seriously.

I hate to hear a trans woman being called a 'he' because that's not what she is. Every time I hear someone saying that I think of the trans guy I know and how he would feel if someone insisted on calling him 'she'. It works both ways.

[michael21]

Well she old and she called Ann

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Thinking someone can't hold an educated opinion on something because of a lack of understanding/research on something is different to saying they can't understand something because of their genitalia.

That's the difference between TS' stance that you weren't "qualified" to fully have an opinion on that games debate versus Anne insinuating this other woman couldn't hold an opinion simply because she used to have a penis I would imagine.

And before I get pushed into a corner and threatened with my life, that's just my understanding of the situation.

Right now I'm less interested in Annes take on things and more interested why my take on this subject is being labeled 'vitriol' :/

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Being close to someone who is trans female to male, I know how hurt he (and yes he is a 'he') would be if someone said to him, "you should know, you were once female" especially if that comment was in front of a public audience. Knowing how desperate he was to become a male (though he's not completely re-assigned yet). The hysterectomy, the mastectomy, the hormone regime and the coming out I feel for him every time I hear people mocking transgenders on here.
For him its somewhat easier because as his hips fell away and his beard grew, his voice deepened and his whole persona took on a very muscular appearance. For men who transition its much more difficult. The voice often remains deep, the Adams still protrudes, the facial features often look masculine and the hips don't grow and I think because of all those things they are less accepted. They are still seen as a c**k in a frock and people don't take them seriously.

I hate to hear a trans woman being called a 'he' because that's not what she is. Every time I hear someone saying that I think of the trans guy I know and how he would feel if someone insisted on calling him 'she'. It works both ways.

DR I think you're preaching to the converted somewhat here, I would say that 99% of the forum and for certain me personally am very sympathetic to M/F or F/M transitions.

I have to say though that as upsetting as it was the fact was they were once a different gender... and as such will have had experiences that they could draw on for comment in relation to that.
Which to my mind is more or less what happened here, they didn't die and get reborn they transitioned, the memory of socialisation, patriarchy and peer pressure is still all there to relate to isn't it?

Should I transition tomorrow I would still have a wealth of experience as a female to draw upon a a trans man.