[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

To be honest I don't think I have either. She always comes across as very polite in her language on this issue.

I don't think men understand this issue from a women's standpoint at all. But then they are coming from the sex with all the advantages and none of the discrimination.

Yeah I agree and that's not me trying to shut down men from having opinions or whatever more trying to explain why we as woman might feel more nervous about some of the issues to do with transgenders and worry about going backwards when it comes to stereo typing

Originally Posted by AnnieK

Part of the problem on this forum at the moment is there are two distinct types of posters.
These transgender views and topics are a fairly recent issue, one of which some of the older members of the forum are not familiar with, new terminology, cis etc. Younger posters are more used to an all accepting (or more accepting) population. We all need to be more understanding and informed about issues. The problems that a lot of people have is the manner in which more informed members of this forum try to educate. I have many times typed out a question and then not posted because I cant be arsed with the "duh...[insert patronising insulting reply]" from a section of this forum

Like on this page, cherie posted a question, Shaun answered and Marsh answered. Both basically with the same information but one to the point end of the other with barbed patronising language. And you wonder why people bite?

yep totally agree

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Withano

The place is going to go in to a meltdown when the bigender woman enters the bar.

Nah, she'd just be referred to as a woman.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by jaxie

That's a very good post and I agree with some of it. But I will disagree that some of us 'need educating'. As women we've spent a lifetime fighting for just the right to be treated as an equal and it still isn't happening, you've seen the recent news on gender pay issues to name but one. Now along comes another group telling we aren't even women anymore. No. This isn't even an issue about transgender or transsexual people. I don't have any problem with how someone wants/needs to live their life. I have a problem with someone trying to redefine my identity and trying to 'include' someone at my expense.

Completely agree Jaxie. We should not be expected to tolerate others trying to redefine our identity. We know who we are and do not need to be dictated to by anyone about what we do or do not accept. It isn’t our responsibility to define others or to suffer any negative consequences as a result.

[Marsh.]

Nobody's dictating anything. Our opinions and viewpoint on transgender and how they are identified affects us ALL, not just women.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by jaxie

That's a very good post and I agree with some of it. But I will disagree that some of us 'need educating'. As women we've spent a lifetime fighting for just the right to be treated as an equal and it still isn't happening, you've seen the recent news on gender pay issues to name but one. Now along comes another group telling we aren't even women anymore. No. This isn't even an issue about transgender or transsexual people. I don't have any problem with how someone wants/needs to live their life. I have a problem with someone trying to redefine my identity and trying to 'include' someone at my expense.

Nobody has changed your identity. Your identity is the exact same. You were always cisgendered. Your gender and your sex always correlated, unlike bigender, agender, and transgender women. The word woman is a collective term for all groups of women (whether you like that or not), cisgendered is specifically designed to separate you from the other groups when needed.

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Completely agree Jaxie. We should not be expected to tolerate others trying to redefine our identity. We know who we are and do not need to be dictated to by anyone about what we do or do not accept. It isn’t our responsibility to define others or to suffer any negative consequences as a result.

But as women we expected to be treated as equals and men had to be educated to do that so surely as times move on as women we should be more aware of discrimination and try to embrace change. We don't have to change our own definitions but we do need to recognise change in my opinion

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Nobody's dictating anything. Our opinions and viewpoint on transgender and how they are identified affects us ALL, not just women.

Not to the same degree though. And I believe there are considerably more trans women than trans men. The resulting effects are completely different.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Not to the same degree though. And I believe there are considerably more trans women than trans men. The resulting effects are completely different.

It is men that are becoming trans women.

We have a say and a voice in the discussion. I won't be told I don't by you.

[Jamie89]

The trans group includes women whichever way you look at it, like if you don't consider transwomen to be women then you consider transmen to be women, so I don't think it should be something where it's women being pitted against transpeople, I cant see how that helps anybody. Everyone wants the same thing at the end of the day which is rights and inclusion within society and to be treated with respect etc, it shouldn't have to be a case of one vs the other (especially when both groups include each other).

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

But as women we expected to be treated as equals and men had to be educated to do that so surely as times move on as women we should be more aware of discrimination and try to embrace change. We don't have to change our own definitions but we do need to recognise change in my opinion

Recognising change is one thing but certain proposals such as self-identified non-transitioned men using ladies bathrooms is stamping over the rights of women on several levels. There are potential problems with that that concern many women and rightly so. This is not really the case for men though.

As far as I am aware Women have never even been asked about their views on this which I find astonishing considering the implications for them. It says a lot about how their views are valued by some including transwomen. It comes across as some seeing their rights as more important. I find the whole thing quite frustrating.

[Northern Monkey]

I don’t think (from what i’ve seen) that Niamh and Vicky are transphobic they just disagree with this self identification stuff where any pervy bloke can say they ‘identify’ as a woman to get into womens changing rooms,toilets,prisons and in womens equality roles.Also this idea of a ‘female penis’ and lesbians being transphobic if they won’t sleep with a male with a penis ‘identifying’ as a woman.I agree.
A man wearing a dress is still a male at the end of the day.They should’nt be able to encroach on womens private spaces.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

I don’t think (from what i’ve seen) that Niamh and Vicky are transphobic they just disagree with this self identification stuff where any pervy bloke can say they ‘identify’ as a woman to get into womens changing rooms,toilets,prisons and in womens equality roles.Also this idea of a ‘female penis’ and lesbians being transphobic if they won’t sleep with a male with a penis ‘identifying’ as a woman.I agree.
A man wearing a dress is still a male at the end of the day.They should’nt be able to encroach on womens private spaces.

That is how I read their feelings on it as well.

[Marsh.]

I don't think TS' problem was with their viewpoint per se. He says he doesn't believe they're transphobic.

But the language used when they're discussing it wouldn't ordinarily be tolerated if similar was used when discussing another minority group.

[jaxie]

Thanks

Originally Posted by Withano

Nobody has changed your identity. Your identity is the exact same. You were always cisgendered. Your gender and your sex always correlated, unlike bigender, agender, and transgender women. The word woman is a collective term for all groups of women (whether you like that or not), cisgendered is specifically designed to separate you from the other groups when needed.

The big difference between us Withano is if you or any other member found a term offensive or didn't like it I would immediately out of politeness stop using it. You on the other hand are delighting in using it. I don't have anything else to say to someone like that.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

The trans group includes women whichever way you look at it, like if you don't consider transwomen to be women then you consider transmen to be women, so I don't think it should be something where it's women being pitted against transpeople, I cant see how that helps anybody. Everyone wants the same thing at the end of the day which is rights and inclusion within society and to be treated with respect etc, it shouldn't have to be a case of one vs the other (especially when both groups include each other).

Not one of us has said that a trans woman shouldn't be included or treated with respect as a trans woman.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Not one of us has said that a trans woman shouldn't be included or treated with respect as a trans woman.

I wasn't meaning that you or anyone else didn't want them to be treated with respect, I was just trying to highlight my view that the things they want are the same things everyone wants (and I used things such as respect as examples). Rather than it needing to be a case of one group competing with another for rights etc. I felt like the rhetoric was turning into a women v trans thing, if someone is supporting of one then they're against the other, I was just trying to put across that I don't see it in that way is all.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

I wasn't meaning that you or anyone else didn't want them to be treated with respect, I was just trying to highlight my view that the things they want are the same things everyone wants (and I used things such as respect as examples). Rather than it needing to be a case of one group competing with another for rights etc. I felt like the rhetoric was turning into a women v trans thing, if someone is supporting of one then they're against the other, I was just trying to put across that I don't see it in that way is all.

It's not a v thing until you start to encroach on the identity of one group in a desire to give the other group what you perceive they want. Few of us get everything we want, particularly at the expense of others.

It's great to stand up for something you believe in but not at someone else's expense. You have to learn to listen to others too. If you miss the very strong consensus from women on these threads then you really aren't listening.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by jaxie

It's not a v thing until you start to encroach on the identity of one group in a desire to give the other group what you perceive they want. Few of us get everything we want, particularly at the expense of others.

It's great to stand up for something you believe in but not at someone else's expense. You have to learn to listen to others too. If you miss the very strong consensus from women on these threads then you really aren't listening.

I may disagree with some opinions but that doesn't mean I haven't listened to them. I've engaged a lot with women in these threads so I'm not sure where this is all coming from/what you're trying to say here? And I'm not sure where I've encroached on anyone's identity? If this is regarding the 'cis' conversation I don't know how else I can put across that the use of the word is unrelated to labeling someones gender. It's a gender non-specific term. And I'm not saying that people should get what they want at the expense of others, I'm not sure where that's come from either/what I've said that would suggest otherwise?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

It is men that are becoming trans women.

We have a say and a voice in the discussion. I won't be told I don't by you.

And I won’t be told by you that this group’s feelings and wishes should get priority over those of non-trans women. Neither will I be accepting the description as a cis woman. Nonsense.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

I may disagree with some opinions but that doesn't mean I haven't listened to them. I've engaged a lot with women in these threads so I'm not sure where this is all coming from/what you're trying to say here? And I'm not sure where I've encroached on anyone's identity? If this is regarding the 'cis' conversation I don't know how else I can put across that the use of the word is unrelated to labeling someones gender. It's a gender non-specific term. And I'm not saying that people should get what they want at the expense of others, I'm not sure where that's come from either/what I've said that would suggest otherwise?

When I say you in that post I'm speaking more generally not specifically. When you when we do this or that. Although you have brought in the cis thing I don't feel you've been pushing it.

You, as in you personally, are engaging in discussion and you are a lot more polite than many posters about it. But I do get a vibe you are not really listening and understanding the problem.

This has nothing to do with trans prejudice and everything to do with the rights of women. When I say women I mean those born a woman not those choosing it, not bananas, women.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by jaxie

When I say you I'm speaking generally not specifically. When you when we do this or that.

You, as in you personally, are engaging in discussion and you are a lot more polite than many posters about it. But I do get a vibe you are not really listening and understanding the problem.

This has nothing to do with trans prejudice and everything to do with the rights of women. When I say women I mean those born a woman not those choosing it, not bananas, women.

Ok I get you, I think we'll just have to disagree in that case then because I think I do listen and understand those other views (and have had discussions at length about those problems) unless it can be pointed out where I haven't in which case I'd happily discuss.

On your last point though, that's what I was getting at earlier with the original post when I said that trans people are included within the group of women whichever way it's looked at, because if you're referring specifically to women who were born as women, then that would include trans men. It's not a one or the other when it comes to women and trans people. However I do consider transwomen to be women (albeit women who are different/not 'the same as') so when talking about women's rights I take into consideration transwomens rights as well, not 'instead of' though. But just because I disagree on that it doesn't mean I'm not listening to or misunderstanding the opposing view, I just hold a different opinion to it.

[Maru]

I'd always been under the impression that the brain's spacial differences developed more according to how we used it, not necessarily by biology. Have we separated genetic brain development from what is environmental/individually ingrained...

And the way I see it, some people have higher aptitude in certain areas, so perhaps more connections are made... but for example, if you have never developed a certain skill or trait, then that part lays in atrophy... and developing, encouraging new habits, it takes a lot of repetition, I guess to map learn new behavioral patterns....

But our personalities are a complex thing. They're likely dependent on several dependencies, and some areas may strongly reinforce certain aspects, so different to remap in that sense....

As far as biology, yes, they've seen differences between brains, but I was under the impression that was individualized and didn't necessarily mean there was a cause, it could be instead be a symptom...

For example, if I have an addiction, my pleasure centers are going to look different than other folk.

If someone is suffering from dysphoria and is constantly dealing with the discomfort of their identity, then why would it not make sense they may align or develop their behaviors according to chosen sex... and as such, that those brain characteristics may grow accordingly.

I sometimes sound like a Latina, and have certain characteristic of that speech as those were the female peers I associated with... but then I don't think that because my speech patterns show in brain images that that suddenly means I'm full Mexican. It just means my environment shaped my thinking, my mannerisms and the way I feel comfortable communicating with others...

The thing is, when many people transitions, it doesn't end the dysphoria. It helps to alleviate it, but it doesn't end the symptoms. That's why I err on the side of caution when it comes to "brain scans" as being the proof in the pudding. I think more research needs to be done into why there is a dysphoria in the first place... not simply, oh, there's more female centers and thus female... there's a lot we still don't really understand about the human brain... and if it down to mental illness, then we need to know what it is, so we can treat it better actually and improve the livelihood of those who are suffering with it... but when these discussions are had, they are treated as "transphobic" by activists for not falling in line with their subscribed thought processes...

I think on SD in particular, it feels like an inquisition sometimes... and I think Nom and Vicky, maybe they were like me, did their own research in their own time in an attempt to understand why there are so many difficult feelings there when simply having a discussion... and what I've found does not necessarily paint a pretty picture of where we are going as a society, when discussions about science are labeled as counter-productive, anti-insert thing, pro-male white supremacy, etc... there's an uglier side to this activism, and I think--because these issues are so close to home to them--some folk would rather ignore that this exists and fosters a looming sense of anxiety when it comes to these discussions... because there are political ideologies trying to entrench themselves with this activist... and for better or worse, they have hijacked the discussion which I think has distracted from what is actually helpful to those suffering versus what they'd like to accomplish instead... but yes, that is the short version, and I think people who are talking about what they think is evidence, would not like to be straw-manned into one of those side conversations about what is decency, what is socially acceptable in discussion and so on...

[bitontheslide]

Bang on Maru

Pass me a taco

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

In this instance everyone in the room did know, having spent some time as the opposite sex is not a dirty secret either.

Well as it happened, everyone in the room couldn't care less.

Being born female isn't a dirty secret but its up to the individual about sharing such information. Having someone else broadcast personal details about a persons gender is unnecessary and in his case damaging.

[parmnion]

Serious question...you know if someone loses a leg they can get that phantom leg syndrom..which i have been told hurts like buggery.Does anyone know if well, you know..phantom boaby syndrome...is it a thing?