[Withano]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I am completely mystified by your stance here, Withano.

Dezzy himself has stated how he is in favour of 'trialling' this proposition yet here you are all Quixotically mounted on your Rocinante tilting at windmills on his behalf.

Dezzy is undoubtedly one of the most intelligent and able members on this forum - yes, I do really believe that - so do you truly believe that he is incapable of taking care of himself if such a situation as the one you envisage did occur? (which it will not).

My proposition is not any kind of 'trap' it is a genuine attempt to resolve a very real issue on here for the sake of the forum, the Administrators, the members and the Mods and I genuinely believe that opening up these Infractions will be a step in the right direction for the reasons which Dezzy and me have already given.

Well, you’re not really the worst offender of this (top 10 perhaps, but there are far worse), people like to lay in to the mods quite regularly, and unfortunately, most of the others in that top 10 are quite friendly with each other, so I think it will just amount to group fights, which is just ugly.

I don't see how making mods’ decisions public will limit that... i mean, it definitely will not, I guess that’s not Dezzy’s point.

I think Dezzy wants to do it so that he can point out the facts when people inevitably kick up a fuss... I think he shouldn’t because it will encourage people to angrily kick up a fuss more regularly, making the entire excercise kinda counterintuitive.

I guess my issue is not quite believing the bit I’ve bolded. And if it is actually true of you, it would not be true of several others, who would misuse this new system as a way to vent anger at the mods and believe that they’re justified in doing it.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Shaun

Out of interest for the practicality of this being implemented: wouldn't infractions being made public counteract the measure of deleting an infraction-worthy post, if you can just then see it in this "list of infractions" idea?

For example:

Blurryface calls Amy Jade a 'nasty bitch'.
Blurryface receives an infraction, the post is deleted.
Everyone heads to "Latest Infractions" and sees: "Blurryface - 2pts - reason with quoted post"

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I'd assume if it were to happen, we'd just say something like

'Blurryface - 2pts - Insulting a forum member'

The infracted person would know the post in question and, in a situation where they could lie about it to rile people up, I'd say we reveal the infraction in it's entirely.

It's something I've been tempted to do often when I see people blatantly lie about why they've got infracted It's one way an open system could benefit the mods I suppose. Can't call bias if we can expose the truth when issues are raised. In the current system we kind of have to sit on our hands even when we know we can end a situation by revealing the truth.

...I’m going to quote Shaun and Dezzy’s posts just because they feel relevant to my thoughts is all...


...so much is obviously difficult for me to comment on because of my time off the forum with my illness...but even ‘going back to the day’.....it was still a thing of not being always able to feel a perspective of transparency because of deletions in threads...for instance, blurry face might have insulted Amy in such a way so it’s easy to feel....aha, you’re guilty blurry face...you broke the rules and insulted a member so really you deserved your infraction etc...but it still wouldn’t be giving an accurate thing if Amy persistently and consistently had prodded and poked Blurryface through thread after thread and over time after time etc....to the point where he had insulted her...?...I mean, we all know the rules but there is also a point where rules will inevitably be broken when people are pushed to feel and react in....enough already!!!!...I do feel these things are relevant as well to get full context to a group or community ‘dynamic’....otherwise it’s a bit like what most of us hate about BB in getting the edited highlights......but the ‘live feed’ would have given full context and full understanding....I don’t think it’s as black and white as showing a post or explaining a post when an infraction was given, I think it’s a little more complicated than questioning of own infractions...but more the participation of others or another...and is fairness being shown..?...(...because all has to be seen to be fair also, that has to have transparency...)...if for instance someone is ‘baited and trolled’, pushed and prodded etc from thread to thread and over much time...to the point where an insult is given...?....then obviously that one insult and one reason isn’t the only factor or only issue...in fact it’s relatively small in the grand scheme of trying to create ‘more harmony’...I would say, personally....people are human, people will react...whether it breaks a rule or not, you know....if someone’s posts and thoughts are constantly ‘picked at’ in negative ways...by the same member or the same few members, then it will inevitably lead to the frustrations and the insults....and I know ‘two wrongs don’t make a right’...but it’s understandable why these things happen....


...anyways, I guess really what I’m saying and what my thoughts are ...I realise that James doesn’t like threads and posts remaining in their entirety because of the negative vibe it gives the forum for any browsers and potential new members....I understand that completely...(...and there are times when individual threads../posts would be justified to be removed and deleted immediately because of a prejudice or intolerant value etc...)....but other than those occasions....maybe a compromise of leaving a complete thread without any deletions etc up for a limited time of 24hours or 48 hours, type thing....(...it could still be closed if appropriate...)...but it would help with transparency for members to have whole context...not just in that thread...’the guilty thread’.. of the infraction or infractions being revealed....but with other threads that have come before as well and what ‘has led to’....I do think that’s very relevant to feelings of ‘fairness for all’....


....maybe not, maybe I’m completely off key here...but I personally would always like to get the full context of something rather than one or two person’s ‘truths’...which may be true, but there are many truths usually....

[Ammi]

...a big shout out to the staff though.....crikey not for all the tea in China as the saying goes...

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

This thread's been mentioned in the tower and, tbh, I actually agree with the idea of, at least on a temporary basis, infractions being made public. Mainly because it will result in the wind being knocked out of a lot of people's sails when they realise that assumed bias against them doesn't exist.

In fact, to spill a little tea, a lot of people who are for this who also typically believe they are being unfairly persecuted would be faced with undeniable proof of the opposite, that they aren't infracted as much as other people are.

If this does happen, it'll be a good way to teach people to never confuse their assumptions for facts.



Erm.

It was the use of the word Mods plural Dezzy

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Sincere thanks for your honesty, Dezzy.

I am chagrined about my 'Michael' post thread removal which I thought was unnecessary and about the Infraction which I thought was heavy-handed.

The thread and my OP was light-hearted, friendly to and actually supportive of Michael, but surely, even if removing it was deemed necessary as a precautionary measure for the reasons given, was it REALLY necessary to give me an infraction instead of a mere friendly note by pm or even a Warning?

I agree Kirk, it was light hearted and obviously in support of Michael who has been the target of quite a bit of late by some nasty comments but I appreciate the explanation from Dezzy and that is very helpful and positive going forward

I do think that the infraction for Kirk was unfair and should be overturned. In a situation like that it would be better for the thread to be closed and a brief explanation given and no infractions, imo.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I agree Kirk, it was light hearted and obviously in support of Michael who has been the target of quite a bit of late by some nasty comments but I appreciate the explanation from Dezzy and that is very helpful and positive going forward

I do think that the infraction for Kirk was unfair and should be overturned. In a situation like that it would be better for the thread to be closed and a brief explanation given and no infractions, imo.

I agree with this, good post LT, I would also like someone we can chat with if we think something is unfair ,people wouldn't need to air it on the forum then.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

I agree with this, good post LT, I would also like someone we can chat with if we think something is unfair ,people wouldn't need to air it on the forum then.

It would even be an area that is not for all to see but all mods and admin can and is accessible via a password type thing. I get everyone usually thinks they have been unfairly treated at times but because a forum is words only with no facial recognition its very hard to sometimes get the gist of a comment and so something said in all innocence and in jest can be viewed as hostile and baiting, for example and i bet that fits many grievances

[LeatherTrumpet]

And can I just add, and in no way of a dig, that if forum member Dezzy was not a mod I would wager, and I think many others would, he would be infracted and banned as frequently as me, Kirk, brillo or Marsh is. So I would not take too much of the moral high ground Dezzy - there is no other Mod who would come close - that is not because you are a bad person but its to do with the fact when you get angry at a differing opinion you cant help but get personal and or condescending (i like to do this too, it makes me feel better) . Its just who you are but dont think that you are somehow immune to the faults you find in others and highlight in threads like this. I still love you but as the forum Dad I am just telling you how it is. x

[Amy Jade]

Originally Posted by Withano

I think Dezzy wants to do it so that he can point out the facts when people inevitably kick up a fuss... I think he shouldn’t because it will encourage people to angrily kick up a fuss more regularly, making the entire excercise kinda counterintuitive.

Haven't you noticed that's how you get your way on this forum? It's become very apparent to me in the last few months.

99% of the forum are happy with how the forum is run fundamentally and accept the odd infraction for perhaps over stepping the mark but the vocal few aren't happy so now we have to change things? We aren't meant to discuss infractions but there is going to be a thread pointing everyones out? I agree with Withano, it is bound to cause trouble.

[bitontheslide]

i disagree that they should be made public. If someone has enough infractions to be close to a ban, people could goad them into them crossing the line. Also, people will start complaining that so and so didn't get an infraction for blah or that the infraction was too heavy or light handed ..... It will just create even more animosity and argument

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Amy Jade

Haven't you noticed that's how you get your way on this forum? It's become very apparent to me in the last few months.

99% of the forum are happy with how the forum is run fundamentally and accept the odd infraction for perhaps over stepping the mark but the vocal few aren't happy so now we have to change things? We aren't meant to discuss infractions but there is going to be a thread pointing everyones out? I agree with Withano, it is bound to cause trouble.

"99% of the forum are happy with how the forum is run fundamentally"

can you provide any evidence to back up this extravagant claim?

[Amy Jade]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

"99% of the forum are happy with how the forum is run fundamentally"

can you provide any evidence to back up this extravagant claim?

Are most of the forum wanting change or just the same people over and over again?

How about we have an opt in list for your infractions being public so you can have yours posted but I can keep mine where they should be, in my inbox. Frankly it is nobody elses business what my infractions are or if I even have any.

It's like a wall of shame essentially.

[bitontheslide]

Also on the Michael thread, no matter how good intentioned, it was encouraging personal referral to a forum member which will illicit both positive and negative opinions. Those that appreciate a forum members contributions will let them know one way or another, without needing a specific thread

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

i disagree that they should be made public. If someone has enough infractions to be close to a ban, people could goad them into them crossing the line. Also, people will start complaining that so and so didn't get an infraction for blah or that the infraction was too heavy or light handed ..... It will just create even more animosity and argument

If we had a mediator though bots,it wouldn't be aired on the forum ,people could talk it out privately, and sort things out,as it stands,some people think there is some unfairness in certain areas, those bleating that people are just out to cause trouble haven't got a clue as to what goes on or went on, sometimes people need to get things off their chests and the forum is not the place ,we need someone we can approach,who we know will do a fair job,who we can talk to,as it stands people are just infracted and cannot explain why they think it's unfair (if it is),I am not bothered either way,but I don't think it's a bad idea.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Also on the Michael thread, no matter how good intentioned, it was encouraging personal referral to a forum member which will illicit both positive and negative opinions. Those that appreciate a forum members contributions will let them know one way or another, without needing a specific thread

I get that aswell but we get it all the time in threads like for example 'which Tibb member blah,blah,blah, they aren't taken down and members are talked about.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

I get that aswell but we get it all the time in threads like for example 'which Tibb member blah,blah,blah, they aren't taken down and members are talked about.

Good point, Micheal's was a light hearted thread, he posted in it himself, what is wrong with boosting a member who gets alot of negativity up, i think what should have happened is the negative comments should have been removed,. there have been threads about members before when they went awol and they went pages long with no penalities.

Dezzy I comment you for your comments in this thread I do think progress has been made across the great divide

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Good point, Micheal's was a light hearted thread, he posted in it himself, what is wrong with boosting a member who gets alot of negativity up, i think what should have happened is the negative comments should have been removed,. there have been threads about members before when they went awol and they went pages long with no penalities.

Dezzy I comment you for yoru comments in this thread I do think progress has been made across the great divide

Totally agree plus most people could see it was a positive thread,shame some have to spoil them.There is nothing wrong with being nice now and again.Plus I really don't care who sees my infractions bans etc,if I have been bad I will take a slap on the wrist.

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Good point, Micheal's was a light hearted thread, he posted in it himself, what is wrong with boosting a member who gets alot of negativity up, i think what should have happened is the negative comments should have been removed,. there have been threads about members before when they went awol and they went pages long with no penalities.

Dezzy I comment you for yoru comments in this thread I do think progress has been made across the great divide

But then, those that posted negatively will get pissed if their posts were deleted, and also, it projects a group mentality that i don't think is healthy personally as I already think there is far to much group mentality on display already.

[Denver]

I'm a good girl so wouldn't affect my life #Noinfractions

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Adam.

I'm a good girl so wouldn't affect my life #Noinfractions

I didn't realize you were a girl Adam

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

But then, those that posted negatively will get pissed if their posts were deleted, and also, it projects a group mentality that i don't think is healthy personally as I already think there is far to much group mentality on display already.

If someone makes a feel good thread, going into it to specifically say nasty things is against forum rules as it is insulting members so there should be no debate over their deletion

[Amy Jade]

The Michael thread asked a question and people answered. I won't elaborate on my reply but it was my honest opinion. Why do people seek to censor only those who oppose their way of thinking?

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Amy Jade

The Michael thread asked a question and people answered. I won't elaborate on my reply but it was my honest opinion. Why do people seek to censor only those who oppose their way of thinking?

That's fine and no problem as long as those that do that can take the negativity back.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Sincere thanks for your honesty, Dezzy.

I am chagrined about my 'Michael' post thread removal which I thought was unnecessary and about the Infraction which I thought was heavy-handed.

The thread and my OP was light-hearted, friendly to and actually supportive of Michael, but surely, even if removing it was deemed necessary as a precautionary measure for the reasons given, was it REALLY necessary to give me an infraction instead of a mere friendly note by pm or even a Warning?

Like I said, if it was anyone else they would have gotten the same so I can't make exceptions.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

I agree with this, good post LT, I would also like someone we can chat with if we think something is unfair ,people wouldn't need to air it on the forum then.

I've been for a return of appeals for quite a while but the problem is that people will inevitably abuse it like they did last time. If it were to ever come back it would need to come with certain rules like

- You can't appeal blatantly deserved infractions, if someone gets infracted for calling another member a twat for example, that's obviously infraction worthy and there's no way it's a mistake. Ultimately if it were to make a comeback members would need to be more self critical than they were back when the previous Appeals were a thing and accept that most infractions are justified.
- You've got to be respectful in the appeal itself, in the old appeals we'd get tons of irate appeals with people screaming the odds at us over infractions they ultimately deserved. If appeals were to come back, members would have to be reasonable and explain why they believe their infractions were wrong without basically screaming curses on our bloodline at us.
- Members would have to understand it's not a place to appeal EVERY infraction they'd get, we used to get a lot of members who would try to appeal everything and it was a waste of time for all involved.
- People would have to accept the verdict, whether it's given out by me or another mod anyone might dislike, members would have to accept that our final says are well, final.

That being said, if you want to talk then there's nothing stopping you PMing me or any other mod. I'm always saying to people who disagree with my decisions or anything to do with modding that they can talk to me over PM but people rarely take me up on that offer.

I remember saying it a lot during the last time I had a wave of attack threads against me but I think only Cherie took me up on that offer? I can remember us having a good chat about things and resolving issues and now I think there's a mutual respect there and we can have a laugh and a joke now.

I will always make time for people who are reasonable and want to fix things and not just want to have a screaming match. My PMs are always open.