[Maru]

Which is better? Which is progress?

...


Miss America Says Farewell To Its Swimsuit Competition, Embracing 'Whole New Era'
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...-whole-new-era

Women Are Not Sex Objects, And They Need To Stop Seeing Themselves That Way
https://thoughtcatalog.com/miya-yama...lves-that-way/

Female self-objectification is a direct consequence of societal sexual objectification of women. Perceiving ourselves as sexual objects leads us to develop self-consciousness, or the habitual monitoring of how our body appears outwardly. Internalizing our society’s sexual objectification practices and engaging in habitual body monitoring creates a disturbance in our consciousness. This pervades our emotional, attentional and motivational states.

In her 2013 TED Talk exploring the harmful impact of sexual objectification, Caroline Heldman noted that the average woman engages in habitual body monitoring every 30 seconds. According to Heldman, the more we as women internalize sexual objectification by viewing ourselves as sex objects, the higher our rates of the following are:

• Depression
• Body imagine issues and eating disorders
• Body-shaming
• Depressed cognitive functioning (Habitual body monitoring takes away time from cognitive functioning.)
• Sexual dysfunction (We impede our own sexual pleasure and enjoyment by engaging in “spectatoring” during sexual activity)
• Decreases our self-esteem
• Decreases our academic grades
• Decreases our political efficacy (the belief that we have a voice in politics)
• Decreases our ability to build rapport and make connections with other women as we engage in female competition

----- Vs. -----

A Feminist's Argument On How Sex Work Can Benefit Women
http://www.inquiriesjournal.com/arti...-benefit-women

5 Promiscuous Things Women Do That Are Actually Empowering
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...wome_b_8150260

1. Send that scandalous selfie

We’ve all been there. There are those days when you look damn good and you want the men in your snapchat list to know that. I know it’s hard to feel comfortable taking a promiscuous photo let alone a naked photo. Do not let society tell you that sending this is slutty or that you’re being sexualized. Instead, remind yourself that you are a sexy, confident woman and you are proud of your body and of course, those snapchats! You get to set the timer and you have the ultimate power. There is nothing more satisfying than feeling confident and sending that photo knowing that he will be thinking about you.

[Vicky.]

Progress would be for women to stop being viewed as sex objects. A woman can feel sexy and whatever if she choses to, but default should not be women are there to look pretty and turn men on. So I would say getting rid of the ridiculous swimsuit thing is progress, though honestly, I cannot stand pageants and stuff anyway.

The liberal feminist argument about how sex work is empowering is absolute bollocks too. But most libfem stuff is bollocks and really comes across to me as doing anything and saying anything to please men, and basically centreing men and their wants in everything. Which is NOT feminism to me tbh.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Progress would be for women to stop being viewed as sex objects. A woman can feel sexy and whatever if she choses to, but default should not be women are there to look pretty and turn men on. So I would say getting rid of the ridiculous swimsuit thing is progress, though honestly, I cannot stand pageants and stuff anyway.

The liberal feminist argument about how sex work is empowering is absolute bollocks too. But most libfem stuff is bollocks and really comes across to me as doing anything and saying anything to please men, and basically centreing men and their wants in everything. Which is NOT feminism to me tbh.

That's a contradiction in itself really , I notice certain angry feminists will shout and complain about grid girls ( i still don't see what the issue is with grid girls) , but they don't seem as bothered about more sexualised jobs . They like to pick and choose what offends them today and tomorrow it's something else .

Women should be allowed to do what job they want , i think some of them are overreacting to stuff like grid girls , beauty pageants again it's their choice i don't see the issue .

And Men are treated as sexual objects aswell but these angry feminists aren't bothered about that , they're more bothered about telling women what they should and shouldn't do as a job .

[Vicky.]

I am not offended by grid girls..it up to them what they want to do for a living. Whats a bit depressing is that there is only grid girls...it always seems to be women there just to look good. I don't see how its a contradiction in itself to say I disagree with (most) liberal feminist theories tbh.

I also love how men suddenly turn into feminists when their eye candy is threatened to be removed. Not all men, before that crap starts, but a lot of them.

And no, feminists are not generally bothered by men being sexualized (which rarely happens) given feminists are more concerned about women. Would you complain that black lives matter focus on black people? Are you a 'but surely all lives matter' person (I used to be, until I understood it all..which is embarassing to admit)

[Toy Soldier]

I think we've been over this in threads a couple of times before Vicky so this time I'm not going to prevaricate and just cut to the point;

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I also love how men suddenly turn into feminists when their eye candy is threatened to be removed. Not all men, before that crap starts, but a lot of them.

The only way you could possibly believe that this is "a lot" of men rather than a small minority of men, is if you surround yourself with a disproportionate number of chavs. Because it's not a male mindset; it's a chav mindset.

I don't mean that to be harsh but any long discourse I could sit and type out would boil down to that, with too many words, and I'm trying something new .

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I am not offended by grid girls..it up to them what they want to do for a living. Whats a bit depressing is that there is only grid girls...it always seems to be women there just to look good. I don't see how its a contradiction in itself to say I disagree with (most) liberal feminist theories tbh.

I also love how men suddenly turn into feminists when their eye candy is threatened to be removed. Not all men, before that crap starts, but a lot of them.

And no, feminists are not generally bothered by men being sexualized (which rarely happens) given feminists are more concerned about women. Would you complain that black lives matter focus on black people? Are you a 'but surely all lives matter' person (I used to be, until I understood it all)

No Vicky when i said it's a contradiction i meant the feminists that say "sex work is empowering" .

There is grid men but it's mainly in Monaco? not sure if there's many still around but yeah we all know usually when it comes to eye candy in these jobs and events it's predominately women . It's like the glamorous assistant routine advertising a sports car .

It's not that i want feminists to focus hugely on men all the time , but surely it works both ways when it comes to ogling eye candy? . Yeah we hear more about females in this line of work but men judged by their looks too . There was even a ignorant feminist who didn't want to admit that magic mike on BGT brought enjoyment to screaming women , and she actually said men aren't abused .

Now if she'd of said statistically we don't hear about male abuse as often then fair enough but she pretty much acted like men are alright and invincible to being used and treated like a sex object .

I don't have issue with black lives matter when they're fighting for true equality but i DO however have issue with the ones that abuse the cause , e.g a couple of black lives matter members totally gatecrashed bernie sanders election rally and it made them look like petulant kids screaming about nothing .

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The only way you could possibly believe that this is "a lot" of men rather than a small minority of men, is if you surround yourself with a disproportionate number of chavs. Because it's not a male mindset; it's a chav mindset.
.

This is entirely possible

Though its not something I encounter too much in real life, its whenever there is articles about grid girls or some other job thats about sexualizing women. Suddenly a bunch of men come from nowhere and care about a womans right to chose. But then, when discussing the likes of abortion for example, those men are notwhere to be seen. So basically, they only care about keeping their eye candy, thats all I can take from that

But yeah, I probably know a large amount of chavs. I live in a pretty rough area (well, my house is not but Gateshead and such is clearly rough as ****)

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

No Vicky when i said it's a contradiction i meant the feminists that say "sex work is empowering" .

Ah right, I got you. I agree.

There is grid men but it's mainly in Monaco? not sure if there's many still around but yeah we all know usually when it comes to eye candy in these jobs and events it's predominately women . It's like the glamorous assistant routine advertising a sports car .

It's not that i want feminists to focus hugely on men all the time , but surely it works both ways when it comes to ogling eye candy? . Yeah we hear more about females in this line of work but men judged by their looks too . There was even a ignorant feminist who didn't want to admit that magic mike on BGT brought enjoyment to screaming women , and she actually said men aren't abused .

Now if she'd of said statistically we don't hear about male abuse as often then fair enough but she pretty much acted like men are alright and invincible to being used and treated like a sex object .

I don't have issue with black lives matter when they're fighting for true equality but i DO however have issue with the ones that abuse the cause , e.g a couple of black lives matter members totally gatecrashed bernie sanders election rally and it made them look like petulant kids screaming about nothing .

I know some men are in sex work, but the numbers are nowhere near similar. Plus, power inbalance and that so its not quite the same but obviously still not OK..but at the same time its up to them to chose what they want to do. Its all so complicated but overall, I do not think sex work is a good thing for equality. Class analysis and all of that (which I know TS disagrees with )

Its ridiculous to claim men are never abused too. We don't hear about it as often as its rarer. But anyone who claims it doesn't happen is just a twat.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

This is entirely possible

Though its not something I encounter too much in real life, its whenever there is articles about grid girls or some other job thats about sexualizing women. Suddenly a bunch of men come from nowhere and care about a womans right to chose. But then, when discussing the likes of abortion for example, those men are notwhere to be seen. So basically, they only care about keeping their eye candy, thats all I can take from that

On social media and online tabloid comments sections yes but that's just more chavs .

+ Mumsnet obviously

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

On social media and online tabloid comments sections yes but that's just more chavs .

+ Mumsnet obviously

Men are an endangered species on mumsnet. Its part of the reason I like it tbh, as its so rare to have a place thats dominated by women, the dymanics are so different to everwhere else. Maybe you should join, and cheer for that side

---

Anyway, will be leaving this thread now as I get drawn into huge arguments on this topic and I go onto large rants which are not really productive at all. But yeah, libfem stuff is usually bull.

[Toy Soldier]

The thing about ... err... gender gap? in sex work though basically comes down to inherent differences between male and female sexuality I think. Though male prostitutes for women exist, most tend to be for gay men. There just isn't a "market" for male hookers... if there was a market for it you can be 100% sure there would be plenty of people filling that market.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Men are an endangered species on mumsnet. Its part of the reason I like it tbh, as its so rare to have a place thats dominated by women, the dymanics are so different to everwhere else. Maybe you should join, and cheer for that side

My own forum was a pregnancy and parenting one Vicky and I was the only male on it. The only male. An admin. On a forum full of women.
Women who were either pregnant or who had recently given birth.

Never again.

I have PTSD

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The thing about ... err... gender gap? in sex work though basically comes down to inherent differences between male and female sexuality I think. Though male prostitutes for women exist, most tend to be for gay men. There just isn't a "market" for male hookers... if there was a market for it you can be 100% sure there would be plenty of people filling that market.

Even if there's not as many male sex workers as there are female , the male ones are still around but some people act like there's no males in this line of work .

[GoldHeart]

Youtube video

[Oliver_W]

Getting rid of the bikini and ballgown sections of Miss America is rather pathetic. If it's suddenly about wit and intellect, send out Betty White. But that won't happen, as it's a beauty pageant, making it fine for appearance to be part of the judging process.

That said, I don't have much respect for such pageants anyway, so I don't care that much about them, but it's silly to change what it actually is. Einstein wouldn't win any pageants, and no-one entering Miss America is gonna be the next Einstein.

[Maru]

I think both trains of thought are kind of dated (imo).

Ok, women should not view themselves as sex objects... duh.

The second, promiscuity = empowerment... I think either way we do it, there has to be real thought into how we handle sexuality. We are empowered by our own certainty of why we choose the path we do, for example... i.e. has meaning versus just giving thought to some "empowering tips" on the front of a sex mag or something...

If we do things because other people think we should do them, or because we think other people think we should do them (they don't actually care maybe...), or some other reasoning besides... hey I like to be sexy... or maybe today I want to feel sexy, but tomorrow... eh... pyjamas...

That's the difference. Having that freedom emotionally and with your identity. Not our juxtaposition being based on some phrase or popular social norm(s). Promiscuity just to meet some condition of empowerment, I think is quite silly especially with the risks that are sometimes involved with that... I also think the only thing it really empowers, short of giving women a clean flight path to living that lifestyle (making it OK by society) is that it can create the same peer pressure of women having to "embrace" their sexuality in one warm tone, in order to be like yay modernism... when maybe they are happy being quite reserved or just maybe that is even too much focus on sex for where they're at in life... currently.

My point, anything we do as people... not just as women... we should do them with some kind of thought. i.e. Did I want to do that?... Or was it because Cosmo told me it would be empowering or I just want to rile the guys... (i.e. don't sexualize me, because feminism, but here's my fanny and shirt showing off my boob job...)... I do feel like there is sometimes an exhibitionist personality type that is inclined towards promiscuity.. and for some people, that's not their cup of tea anyway... and that's OK.

Either way, I don't necessarily reject either view... I just think that if a person is going to pick one, put some thought into why they are choosing that direction as an individual... don't pick because it's the new trendy thing to do and because feminism. Feminism, in my opinion, quite dated in a lot of thinking... just like a lot of today's "social engineered" politics... it's just an easy way to get into the papers, but it's not necessarily "empowering" women to become conscious of their own decision making... so I think either two tend to become bandwagons than true solid ways of thinking if you know I mean... I think women can think for themselves just fine ... but to our young children, it's good when they hear the first... and the second well... helps to end the shame can be developed there societally as it's a bit of a self-declaration of sexual independence... but I do feel like these can be covered in sex ed even. (or God forbid parenting...).. though I think our views as individuals count more than what the "status quo" says... especially with certain ethnic backgrounds or cultural make ups, they have different views on sexuality and that's usually up to the individual to continue that practice... (after a point)... those shouldn't be excluded or sneered upon on the basis of it not fitting into feminist propaganda. Anyway, I'm an individualist feminist... so probably not feminist by the most popular form now, but that's OK... I quite like myself, am happy... and don't to follow a "doctrine"... just need room to be me... thanks, to my feminist ancestors for helping with that... but I got it from here now.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Getting rid of the bikini and ballgown sections of Miss America is rather pathetic. If it's suddenly about wit and intellect, send out Betty White. But that won't happen, as it's a beauty pageant, making it fine for appearance to be part of the judging process.

That said, I don't have much respect for such pageants anyway, so I don't care that much about them, but it's silly to change what it actually is. Einstein wouldn't win any pageants, and no-one entering Miss America is gonna be the next Einstein.

Yeah, I agree with that in general... only thing I would include, is that I do think that beauty is not necessarily just physical. It has an emotional and social component... i.e. someone's personality can make up for looks I think. Though that's just me... I had a male friend who recently dumped someone because they were too heavy (among other reasons he says)... his choice, but I think with a bad personality, I can easily pass on veneer... I'm quite decisive though when it comes to my thoughts on things... and so I have a great emotional kill switch

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

No Vicky when i said it's a contradiction i meant the feminists that say "sex work is empowering" .

There is grid men but it's mainly in Monaco? not sure if there's many still around but yeah we all know usually when it comes to eye candy in these jobs and events it's predominately women . It's like the glamorous assistant routine advertising a sports car .

It's not that i want feminists to focus hugely on men all the time , but surely it works both ways when it comes to ogling eye candy? . Yeah we hear more about females in this line of work but men judged by their looks too . There was even a ignorant feminist who didn't want to admit that magic mike on BGT brought enjoyment to screaming women , and she actually said men aren't abused .

Now if she'd of said statistically we don't hear about male abuse as often then fair enough but she pretty much acted like men are alright and invincible to being used and treated like a sex object .

I don't have issue with black lives matter when they're fighting for true equality but i DO however have issue with the ones that abuse the cause , e.g a couple of black lives matter members totally gatecrashed bernie sanders election rally and it made them look like petulant kids screaming about nothing .

Agree with you Goldheart, prostitution is in the main not empowering, given the woman is more often than not controlled by a man, or needs a fix

Grid girls are empowered as they use their bodies out of their own choice, some of these feminists have things back to front

[Northern Monkey]

This is just their little contribution to the latest moral virtue signalling trend.They’ll bring it back in a couple of years when they realise that they’re confused about what the thing actually is.
Is it a beauty contest or a personality contest?
If it’s the latter then invite some 300lb women with cracking personalities (they won’t).

Either that or it’ll be scrapped when it flops.