[LeatherTrumpet]

BORIS SAYS NO



Boris Johnson has stood by his remarks about the burka after the Conservative Party chairman told him to apologise.

The former foreign secretary has been criticised for saying Muslim women wearing burkas "look like letter boxes" and comparing them to "bank robbers".

His remarks have been branded "offensive" and "deliberately provocative".

But a source close to Mr Johnson said: "It is ridiculous that these views are being attacked."

"We must not fall into the trap of shutting down the debate on difficult issues," the source added.

"We have to call it out. If we fail to speak up for liberal values then we are simply yielding ground to reactionaries and extremists."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45096519

Boris standing up to the classic "shut down"

[Alf]

Ricky Gervais said he'll apologise for mocking Christians if Boris apologises for this.

Spoiler:

He didn't really, I just made that up

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Alf

Ricky Gervais said he'll apologise for mocking Christians if Boris apologises for this.

Spoiler:

He didn't really, I just made that up

Funnily enough Alf I visited a church today and i spoke the vicar I said "good morning Vicar I love your church"

He said "Its Norman you know"

I said "oh, sorry Norman, I do love your church"

[jaxie]

Well he kind of has a point that head to toe covering is intimidating and doesn't encourage friendly interaction. I wonder if women who dress this way have any friends outside their own community.

The point people who come to the defense of this garb consistently miss is this is forced on women. They are brain washed to believe that 'god' thinks everyone who doesn't dress like that is a hussy. Or they are forced into it by the values of their husband or father. How can anyone claim it is a choice. It's horrible mysogianistic control of women.

Blessed be.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Well he kind of has a point that head to toe covering is intimidating and doesn't encourage friendly interaction. I wonder if women who dress this way have any friends outside their own community.

The point people who come to the defense of this garb consistently miss is this is forced on women. They are brain washed to believe that 'god' thinks everyone who doesn't dress like that is a hussy. Or they are forced into it by the values of their husband or father. How can anyone claim it is a choice. It's horrible mysogianistic control of women.

Blessed be.

Well said jaxie

[Toy Soldier]

So the current rules are, politicians aren't allowed to be anti-semitic (or vaguely critical of Israel) but they ARE allowed to be anti-Muslim and say whatever they want, and that's fair game.

It's getting hard to keep up

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

So the current rules are, politicians aren't allowed to be anti-semitic (or vaguely critical of Israel) but they ARE allowed to be anti-Muslim and say whatever they want, and that's fair game.

It's getting hard to keep up

I would say that depends on your point of view doesn't it? I mean if you are taking sides over Isreal and Palestine there is fault on both sides so why are you supporting one over the other? What's the motivation? Everyone there needs a bit of heads knocking in reality.

On the other hand are you supporting or condemning the subjugation of women through religious teaching, forced religious uniform, and indoctrination?

The two issues are fairly different regardless of who is discussing them.

May the Lord open. Can't you see the similarities?

[Oliver_W]

To be fair, making fun of an oppressive garment which doesn't exclusively belong to any religion and which does look a bit letterboxy and bankrobbery isn't really Anti-muslim.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

To be fair, making fun of an oppressive garment which doesn't exclusively belong to any religion and which does look a bit letterboxy and bankrobbery isn't really Anti-muslim.

I agree with this, there are plenty jokes about priests and nuns, (penguins, men in frocks) etc etc etc... where is the outrage? ...

Is something like this any different to saying all blondes are stupid

or all Essex girls look the same way ...

I don't think so, its just people take it upon themselves to be offended on behalf of the muslim community because it's just so popular to do that in the current climate

[MTVN]

^ I don't think you'd get a senior MP who carries a lot of influence making comments like that in a serious newspaper article though

There was no need for him to be so rude and offensive in making his point, he obviously did it deliberately though

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Funnily enough Alf I visited a church today and i spoke the vicar I said "good morning Vicar I love your church"

He said "Its Norman you know"

I said "oh, sorry Norman, I do love your church"

You at a church, community service again lt

[thesheriff443]

Boris only spoke about it, look at how many countries have banned it, then it's put into context.

[bitontheslide]

I'ts all part of the Boris campaign to become the next leader of the Tory party. Boris doesn't say anything without calculating the impact of it previously. He is aiming it at the anti PC crowd and those with a disaffection for immigrants. He will be fighting it out with Rees-Mogg from that side of the party so it's crucial for him to keep himself in the news after leaving the cabinet. It's all very transparent.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by MTVN

^ I don't think you'd get a senior MP who carries a lot of influence making comments like that in a serious newspaper article though

There was no need for him to be so rude and offensive in making his point, he obviously did it deliberately though

Yes it was deliberate, this is what everyone is raging about rather than his recommendation that in a free society we shouldn't be banning the garb

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Yes it was deliberate, this is what everyone is raging about rather than his recommendation that in a free society we shouldn't be banning the garb

I find it rather ironic that he was defending the right to wear it and people are still up in their grill about it.

I'm in two minds about the idea of banning it. I believe in freedom of choice but I don't believe this is a choice in the real sense of the person choosing. I do think public face covering is a crime potential but it is also such a negative for the woman. How does she interact with others or make friends like that? A smile goes a long way at the school gate.

I can't see it ever being banned in the UK unless there is a serious terroist crime wave with people wearing it. But I do wish people would look more at the reasons why she is supposed to cover herself and address that whole idea that there is something wrong with her, something shameful that must be covered. That's where the real wrong is and the defense of that is ugly.

[y.winter]

I watched the other day a Q&A video BBC 3 had with young women wearing burka/niqab. It was just ridiculous to be honest.
The notion of trying to weave these obvious misogynistic garments into feminism (it's a women's right to wear it!) is sad and laughable.
You can find this kind of garments also in the far strict Haredi stream amongst Jews and it's AS appalling as it is as part of the Islam (which to be honest, is never mentioned in the Quran).
This is hiding women, dismissing them as an equal human being, subjecting them to caprices of men and overall objectifying them (so men won't get turned on and be seduced by the existence of a woman).
It happens in lower volumes in Judaism and I'm against it as well (coming from a Jewish heritage).
This has nothing to do with the western world nor Britian itself, and I think society shouldn't encourage it.
Religion is not an excuse for everything in the name of freedom.

[Niamh.]

Agree with both your points Jaxie and ywinter but I also believe outright banning them probably isn't the way to help these women either, saying that, I don't think they should be allowed in schools or places where security would be an issue either, I don't know what the solution is to that really

[y.winter]

It's an uncomfortable situation, and I know it's something very Katie-Hopkins-y to say - but Europe should get their act together and stop tiptoeing around these issues.
There is a major problem in Muslim countries and up until recent years it was only Israel's problem, but now it's leaking to Europe and you can see it in 7/7, mass immigration, London's level of crime, Rochdale, Manchester and London Bridge (which I was "lucky" enough to be there when it happened).
Countries feel uncomfortable having major sanctions because there's a fine line between defending their country and getting in trouble with Islamophobia.
Because the world does not intervene in problematic Muslim countries, their people flee to Europe and become Europe's problem.
Yes, there's need to address the terrible problem that is spreading inside the Muslim community. No, the problem is not the Muslim community, but it's poisoned by sub-communities inside them that grow and grow.
Rochdale and Burkas share the same poisonous misogynistic primitive roots. Letting Burkas happen (=derogatory chauvinistic culture) is opening the door for another Rochdale culture. Be it in a Jewish community, Christians or atheist groups - no legitimization whatsoever.
Unfortunately I see it happen in Israel, when the authorities let Jewish men dismiss women in all sorts of aspects of life, instead of standing up to it (fortunately, we have the privilege of criticizing it for what it is without it being called antisemitism). This is unacceptable.
Europe should put their foot down and say - no, enough is enough, not in our culture.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by y.winter

It's an uncomfortable situation, and I know it's something very Katie-Hopkins-y to say - but Europe should get their act together and stop tiptoeing around these issues.
There is a major problem in Muslim countries and up until recent years it was only Israel's problem, but now it's leaking to Europe and you can see it in 7/7, mass immigration, London's level of crime, Rochdale, Manchester and London Bridge (which I was "lucky" enough to be there when it happened).
Countries feel uncomfortable having major sanctions because there's a fine line between defending their country and getting in trouble with Islamophobia.
Because the world does not intervene in problematic Muslim countries, their people flee to Europe and become Europe's problem.
Yes, there's need to address the terrible problem that is spreading inside the Muslim community. No, the problem is not the Muslim community, but it's poisoned by sub-communities inside them that grow and grow.
Rochdale and Burkas share the same poisonous misogynistic primitive roots. Letting Burkas happen (=derogatory chauvinistic culture) is opening the door for another Rochdale culture. Be it in a Jewish community, Christians or atheist groups - no legitimization whatsoever.
Unfortunately I see it happen in Israel, when the authorities let Jewish men dismiss women in all sorts of aspects of life, instead of standing up to it (fortunately, we have the privilege of criticizing it for what it is without it being called antisemitism). This is unacceptable.
Europe should put their foot down and say - no, enough is enough, not in our culture.

mmm religion trying to put women back in their places yet again, history repeats itself over and over and over

[arista]

Every news and radio station has debates about his comments.
But until he speaks , himself
its wasting debates.

He is now on holiday.

The PM is not doing any action on this , as yet

[parmnion]

Kind of puts the right wing press bias to bed....i would sack boris over this just to show labour how its done.

[arista]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Kind of puts the right wing press bias to bed....i would sack boris over this just to show labour how its done.

The PM is low on MP's
due to her STUPID 2017 General Election
Hung Parliament

[JoshBB]

Just goes to show what a terrible cretin he is. Regardless of a politician's view on burkhas, to insult a piece of religious clothing in such a way is extremely insensitive and prejudiced. I expect the Tories will find themselves struggling to pick up votes from Muslims if he isn't sacked..

[Maru]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Well he kind of has a point that head to toe covering is intimidating and doesn't encourage friendly interaction. I wonder if women who dress this way have any friends outside their own community.

The point people who come to the defense of this garb consistently miss is this is forced on women. They are brain washed to believe that 'god' thinks everyone who doesn't dress like that is a hussy. Or they are forced into it by the values of their husband or father. How can anyone claim it is a choice. It's horrible mysogianistic control of women.

Blessed be.

I think like with anything, when a person has a choice to walk away and they yet remain, then it becomes a choice... any person who chooses to leaves a religion, they don't remove themselves of that responsibility of that "choice". They understand what they did or didn't do and pay the emotional consequences. While I tend to agree with you that religion practiced in an abusive context with isolationist tendencies is very often brainwashing/force-feeding a victim, I don't think that people just simply stay in a situation like that with no willpower of their own unless they're physically forced. That would make them robots... except they're not? They have made a choice, based on the information they know at the time...

Remove the background noise to the more abusive practices of Muslim life and I think that the burqa would be fine if it wasn't in that context. Still off-putting to modern feminism, sure, but absent those privileges, it wouldn't have the same oppressive perception... except to those with staunch views against any religious practice.

I can understand joining a group identity that separates itself from an individualistic society.. it doesn't mean that that person's individuality is forfeit... but what we would call "choice" in our context has more significant meaning for someone in a religious mindset, than simply going about living as we please. Some people feel that a waste of time... absent any purpose or moral direction.

I guess put the shoe on the other foot... if all they can see in our society are people dressing down, putting out most single of their embarrassing life details in the public, no matter how gross or embarrassing, to the general public in the pursuit of some strange model called "personal expression" ... then they would probably feel at a loss. I know sometimes I do.

[LaLaLand]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

To be fair, making fun of an oppressive garment which doesn't exclusively belong to any religion and which does look a bit letterboxy and bankrobbery isn't really Anti-muslim.