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Big Brother 19 [Autumn 2018] Posts about BB19 UK. Discuss the housemates and series - which was won by Cameron - here.


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Old 17-09-2018, 05:56 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Marsh. View Post
You've answered your own question.

Things said behind closed doors are behind closed doors.

A lot of people just don't think of things like Twitter and Facebook as what they are... a PUBLIC DOMAIN.

So, yes when you're posting things on them, it's as good as physically saying it in public and then getting a reputation based on that.

So, Twitter and Facebook aren't dodgy, they're just not suitable for such naive and immature people.

No use blaming social media itself, it's people's use of these platforms that is their pitfall.

Also, there is no "punishing people for being young and dumb", people don't want to associate with someone who has such offensive material ATTACHED to their name on a PUBLIC platform.
You can say she did such and such when she was 15, but it's still there under her username on the internet years later.
Excellent post, Marsh. Ellis should now be older and wiser, and if her views have changed she should be embarrassed enough by her past words to remove them. Yet she has chosen not to.....

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Old 17-09-2018, 09:30 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Marsh. View Post
You've answered your own question.

Things said behind closed doors are behind closed doors.

A lot of people just don't think of things like Twitter and Facebook as what they are... a PUBLIC DOMAIN.

So, yes when you're posting things on them, it's as good as physically saying it in public and then getting a reputation based on that.
You are right. There is a difference between private and public speech.

Social media is a relatively new phenomenon (only been around about 10 years) and lots of people still haven't quite adjusted to it yet and how it all works.

Many people still treat it the same as their private text messages or e mails without understanding the differences; social media has far greater reach and ramifications than normal private talk and they forget all that.

People are so used to speaking freely and saying what they think and feel. In most 'real life' cases, a rude or racist comment would either be ignored or challenged directly person-to-person.

Social media is a different ball game. Because of the public element of it, people are judged and punished much more harshly and seriously for their bad words than they would be in private chat or when talking face to face.

People like Ellie are fools - not just for saying bigoted stuff on there in the first place, but for not realising how social media comes with a whole world of judgmental baggage.

Still it is sad to see young lives potentially ruined by these errors. We all make mistakes and say horrible things about other people (especially when we're young).

Maybe in a few years time the net will be widened and the people today who make death threats against Trump or make derogatory remarks about celebrities, politicians etc - will get the Ellie treatment and perhaps be ejected from a gameshow or lose their job for offensive things they said years ago.

Maybe one day we will all be forced to be nice, to everyone, always;

Won't that be fun.
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Old 17-09-2018, 09:33 PM   #28
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it's honestly not that hard to just not be racist lol
"But mah edginess"
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Old 17-09-2018, 09:37 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Robodog View Post
You are right. There is a difference between private and public speech.

Social media is a relatively new phenomenon (only been around about 10 years) and lots of people still haven't quite adjusted to it yet and how it all works.

Many people still treat it the same as their private text messages or e mails without understanding the differences; social media has far greater reach and ramifications than normal private talk and they forget all that.

People are so used to speaking freely and saying what they think and feel. In most 'real life' cases, a rude or racist comment would either be ignored or challenged directly person-to-person.

Social media is a different ball game. Because of the public element of it, people are judged and punished much more harshly and seriously for their bad words than they would be in private chat or when talking face to face.

People like Ellie are fools - not just for saying bigoted stuff on there in the first place, but for not realising how social media comes with a whole world of judgmental baggage.

Still it is sad to see young lives potentially ruined by these errors. We all make mistakes and say horrible things about other people (especially when we're young).

Maybe in a few years time the net will be widened and the people today who make death threats against Trump or make derogatory remarks about celebrities, politicians etc - will get the Ellie treatment and perhaps be ejected from a gameshow or lose their job for offensive things they said years ago.

Maybe one day we will all be forced to be nice, to everyone, always;

Won't that be fun.
Again, you're defending her right to be racist under the guise of "God, you can't do anything anymore. I wonder if people will get the sack in future for saying Janet Street Porter has funny teeth!"

No. She's not a victim of "Evil Internet", she's opted to do a stupid teenager thing on the internet, rather than in life where it can be forgotten. There's a difference.

It's not about being "nice to everyone" it's about not being racist, and not being racist in public where, guess what, people will judge you for that.

Yes, making a racist joke to your mum or friends is something that could just be forgotten or not ruin your life, something you can regret and move on from. But this isn't about that, she made it online next to a profile identifying her to the whole world. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Last edited by Marsh.; 17-09-2018 at 09:37 PM.
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Old 17-09-2018, 09:42 PM   #30
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Ellis has grown up in the age of social media, so I would expect her to be more aware of the pitfalls.

By the age of 20, you do form and know your own views, and are old enough to decide whether the prejudices or ignorances you've grown up with are right or wrong. Therefore, if your past views were prejudiced, racist, etc, that is not what you believe any longer, then surely you choose to remove offending posts, tweets, etc?
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Old 17-09-2018, 09:48 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Marsh. View Post
Again, you're defending her right to be racist under the guise of "God, you can't do anything anymore. I wonder if people will get the sack in future for saying Janet Street Porter has funny teeth!"

No. She's not a victim of "Evil Internet", she's opted to do a stupid teenager thing on the internet, rather than in life where it can be forgotten. There's a difference.

It's not about being "nice to everyone" it's about not being racist, and not being racist in public where, guess what, people will judge you for that.

Yes, making a racist joke to your mum or friends is something that could just be forgotten or not ruin your life, something you can regret and move on from. But this isn't about that, she made it online next to a profile identifying her to the whole world. BIG DIFFERENCE.
Another great post.

You are so right - she is not the victim of the evil Internet; she is the victim of her own stupidity, ignorance and prejudices. At 20, she is an adult, and responsible for her own actions, i.e. whether or not to delete foolish comments made previously.
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Old 17-09-2018, 10:28 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Marsh. View Post
Again, you're defending her right to be racist under the guise of "God, you can't do anything anymore. I wonder if people will get the sack in future for saying Janet Street Porter has funny teeth!"

No. She's not a victim of "Evil Internet", she's opted to do a stupid teenager thing on the internet, rather than in life where it can be forgotten. There's a difference.

It's not about being "nice to everyone" it's about not being racist, and not being racist in public where, guess what, people will judge you for that.

Yes, making a racist joke to your mum or friends is something that could just be forgotten or not ruin your life, something you can regret and move on from. But this isn't about that, she made it online next to a profile identifying her to the whole world. BIG DIFFERENCE.

I know there's a 'BIG DIFFERENCE'. That's exactly what my last post clearly explained. No need for capitals when we agree.

Neither am i 'defending her right to be racist' - again i clearly said she was a fool to make such bigoted remarks. And its not just about race, people are punished in this way for all types of 'hate speech' (against groups).

My point: 'Will people get the sack in the future for other types of offensive remarks they made in the past?'

Well it's already happening over racist speech, as with anti-religious and homophobic remarks. Laws are currently being discussed to make misogyny a hate crime.

Not exactly a giant leap to expect that trend to continue into other areas of potentially offensive speech:

Currently the focus is on minorities (POC etc) but do you not think that insulting people for being white, straight etc will one day be treated in the same manner? In the name of equal treatment, i guess it would have to go that way.

What about going beyond groups? Will offending individuals eventually be treated the same as offending whole groups?

Are we heading for a world where all offensive remarks and rudeness are treated as 'hate speech', subject to the same level of outrage as anti-racial/religious remarks are today?

If not - at what point do you think it will stop?

Not challenging you or anyone personally, but it's a big topic worthy of thought.
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Old 17-09-2018, 10:33 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Marsh. View Post
Again, you're defending her right to be racist under the guise of "God, you can't do anything anymore. I wonder if people will get the sack in future for saying Janet Street Porter has funny teeth!"

No. She's not a victim of "Evil Internet", she's opted to do a stupid teenager thing on the internet, rather than in life where it can be forgotten. There's a difference.

It's not about being "nice to everyone" it's about not being racist, and not being racist in public where, guess what, people will judge you for that.

Yes, making a racist joke to your mum or friends is something that could just be forgotten or not ruin your life, something you can regret and move on from. But this isn't about that, she made it online next to a profile identifying her to the whole world. BIG DIFFERENCE.
I see both sides of the argument tbh. I think the biggest flaw for social media is that it doesn't allow us room to learn from our mistakes... it's treated more like a permanent record. I think we all say problematic things, especially at a younger age and maybe not so much racial commentary. However, certainly people write things when they are thinking freely that can be misconstrued or twisted by a malicious 3rd party ... but it shouldn't be that what we write can be used to encourage harassment or stalking behavior. Which arguably, that's what social media largely is... a pseudo-collective whose full potential is only realized through stalking behavior...

That will always be the case with social and it should not be used irresponsibly. She was a minor at the time and parents should've probably been paying attention to the types of things she put up . Yes, weird that she didn't erase it later. Of course, that could've been naivety as well, that those momentary posts from her being a minor couldn't have been misused... some people hang onto their accounts just to keep that adolescent post count (), especially if they're an "original" Tweeter...

But to approach it at another angle: It is actually our right to be racist... believe it or not ... we can have those thoughts, we can cross those boundaries socially. We can do a list of things on the personal level. We can even set our personal boundaries along those lines. Sure, it's not morally-correct according to society, but then the social media mob was always less about being a moral police force and more about being attention-seeking. Engaging in stalking/harassment-like behavior keeps it all going. Which all sides do with their pointed words... it's only become this toxic form of a moral authority only recently.

It doesn't justify her remarks but do her remarks justify her losing her employment outside of the public domain (i.e. television)?... that's something we will have to figure out as a society as time goes on... but right now, it feels like an Eye For Eye, and it can only go on so long I think before we will have to rethink... it is already at the point that people are being banned/censored for holding certain political views... but if we use the moral lens to police other people's behavior in a more concise manner, then well, pretty much any reason can be invented to condone that behavior using moral "guidelines"... that's one of the lessons of fascism... so yeah, it's a double-edged sword... the Eye for an Eye mentality... that persons who belittled another down to their pigment, we are allowed to undress them and tear them down to their studs, etc. How this is helpful to society, not the person themselves, is the question.

I think whatever pigment the offender is, they should not lose their employment over it unless they are a public figure, PR, etc... with this one it is complicated if she announced her place of employment proudly, then in a way she was "representing" them. However, her showing her bum, jumping in another person's bed the first night, etc, it wasn't like she was going to be a good representative anyway... so that's a tough call.

I didn't think she is a victim, but arguably the punishment is a bit high and unnecessary... she is off the show, so her personal life should be off-limits to some degree... the concern for me is that the thing that used to empower us now gives me pause... I don't think most people who rant on social care about racism. Most don't even care they are causing more division in our society... the thing they want is to affect other people's lives... in effect, they can be bullies as long as they want to, as long as they work within a certain moral prism... and many have expressed this concern, so it's not just an Ellis thing...
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Old 17-09-2018, 10:37 PM   #34
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Currently the focus is on minorities (POC etc) but do you not think that insulting people for being white, straight etc will one day be treated in the same manner? In the name of equal treatment, i guess it would have to go that way.

What about going beyond groups? Will offending individuals eventually be treated the same as offending whole groups?

Are we heading for a world where all offensive remarks and rudeness are treated as 'hate speech', subject to the same level of outrage as anti-racial/religious remarks are today?
This part tells me you don't actually understand racism and what it entails so we'll just end it there.

Equating "hate speech" with any and all "rudeness" is dense.

Last edited by Marsh.; 17-09-2018 at 10:38 PM.
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Old 17-09-2018, 11:15 PM   #35
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This part tells me you don't actually understand racism and what it entails so we'll just end it there.

Equating "hate speech" with any and all "rudeness" is dense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsh. View Post
This part tells me you don't actually understand racism and what it entails so we'll just end it there.

Equating "hate speech" with any and all "rudeness" is dense.
I didn't equate them.

Quite the opposite, i fearfully asked 'will they become equated' as speech laws increase? This question by it's very nature makes clear my distinction between punishable 'hate speech' and common rudeness;

Talking of which, there is no need to call me 'dense' - especially when you have just failed to understand that point.


As for me 'not understanding racism', i fail to see what you mean.

I'm mixed race, i know exactly how it works.

Unless you are implying that 'white people cannot be the victims of racism'. If that is the case, then i am certainly happy to leave it there with you.
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Old 17-09-2018, 11:16 PM   #36
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i would add, dont leave your backdoor open to intruders
Her backdoor is beautiful. It should be seen.
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Old 17-09-2018, 11:20 PM   #37
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The real message it sends out and one people aren't talking about enough is:

Housemates should not be ejected for things that happened outside of the house
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Old 17-09-2018, 11:29 PM   #38
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I see both sides of the argument tbh. I think the biggest flaw for social media is that it doesn't allow us room to learn from our mistakes... it's treated more like a permanent record. I think we all say problematic things, especially at a younger age and maybe not so much racial commentary. However, certainly people write things when they are thinking freely that can be misconstrued or twisted by a malicious 3rd party ... but it shouldn't be that what we write can be used to encourage harassment or stalking behavior. Which arguably, that's what social media largely is... a pseudo-collective whose full potential is only realized through stalking behavior...

That will always be the case with social and it should not be used irresponsibly. She was a minor at the time and parents should've probably been paying attention to the types of things she put up . Yes, weird that she didn't erase it later. Of course, that could've been naivety as well, that those momentary posts from her being a minor couldn't have been misused... some people hang onto their accounts just to keep that adolescent post count (), especially if they're an "original" Tweeter...

But to approach it at another angle: It is actually our right to be racist... believe it or not ... we can have those thoughts, we can cross those boundaries socially. We can do a list of things on the personal level. We can even set our personal boundaries along those lines. Sure, it's not morally-correct according to society, but then the social media mob was always less about being a moral police force and more about being attention-seeking. Engaging in stalking/harassment-like behavior keeps it all going. Which all sides do with their pointed words... it's only become this toxic form of a moral authority only recently.

It doesn't justify her remarks but do her remarks justify her losing her employment outside of the public domain (i.e. television)?... that's something we will have to figure out as a society as time goes on... but right now, it feels like an Eye For Eye, and it can only go on so long I think before we will have to rethink... it is already at the point that people are being banned/censored for holding certain political views... but if we use the moral lens to police other people's behavior in a more concise manner, then well, pretty much any reason can be invented to condone that behavior using moral "guidelines"... that's one of the lessons of fascism... so yeah, it's a double-edged sword... the Eye for an Eye mentality... that persons who belittled another down to their pigment, we are allowed to undress them and tear them down to their studs, etc. How this is helpful to society, not the person themselves, is the question.

I think whatever pigment the offender is, they should not lose their employment over it unless they are a public figure, PR, etc... with this one it is complicated if she announced her place of employment proudly, then in a way she was "representing" them. However, her showing her bum, jumping in another person's bed the first night, etc, it wasn't like she was going to be a good representative anyway... so that's a tough call.

I didn't think she is a victim, but arguably the punishment is a bit high and unnecessary... she is off the show, so her personal life should be off-limits to some degree... the concern for me is that the thing that used to empower us now gives me pause... I don't think most people who rant on social care about racism. Most don't even care they are causing more division in our society... the thing they want is to affect other people's lives... in effect, they can be bullies as long as they want to, as long as they work within a certain moral prism... and many have expressed this concern, so it's not just an Ellis thing...
Maru

What a brilliant post. Full of so many excellent points and all so well thought out.

Best post i've read on this site for a very long time. So much to think about in there.

Yes we have so much to work out, socially. We have to be careful that the tools we build to protect people, do not themselves become weapons.

Ultimately i am confident in humanity and despite swinging between extremes like we do these days, i feel that we will get the balance right in the end.

People are waking up more and more, and are wanting to fix things for the better.

Reading intelligent posts like yours makes realise there are plenty of good souls out there
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Old 17-09-2018, 11:35 PM   #39
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The real message it sends out and one people aren't talking about enough is:

Housemates should not be ejected for things that happened outside of the house
Totally agree with that.



.

Last edited by Robodog; 17-09-2018 at 11:43 PM.
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