[LeatherTrumpet]

The decision, described as a first, hinges on the state’s ‘personhood’ law recognising legal rights of the unborn.

An Alabama judge has recognized the legal rights of an aborted fetus,
allowing a man whose girlfriend ended her pregnancy at six weeks to sue
the manufacturer of the pill she used and the clinic that gave it to her.

The decree, issued by Madison County Probate Judge Frank Barger, explicitly
states “Baby Roe” is a person and allows plaintiff Ryan Magers to name the
fetus as a co-plaintiff in the suit for “wrongful death.” Magers said in court
filings that when his then-girlfriend discovered she was pregnant in early 2017,
he “repeatedly pleaded” with her to carry the pregnancy to term and give birth,
but she wanted to have an abortion.

Abortion rights groups expressed alarm, saying the Alabama judge’s decision last
month sets a dangerous precedent at a time when the idea of “fetal rights” — which
recognize embryos and fetuses as separate from the women who carry them — is gaining
currency in state legislatures, courts and law enforcement agencies. In one New Jersey case,
a mother lost custody of her child when she had a vaginal birth instead of the C-section her
doctors insisted was necessary. In others, pregnant women who drank or took drugs — both illegal
and prescribed — and then had miscarriages were accused of child abuse. And dozens of states have
passed fetal homicide laws that treat the unborn as a separate entity from the woman carrying them.

Ilyse Hogue, president of NARAL Pro-Choice America, tweeted Tuesday that the Alabama lawsuit is
a “very scary case.” It asserts that a woman’s rights are “third in line,” after the rights of a
man who impregnates her and the fetus she aborts, she said.

“It has the potential to be used in other states, and it’s part of abortion opponents being
emboldened … and conservatives turning over every rock to see how they can ban abortion,”
said Elizabeth Nash, who studies state legislation at the Guttmacher Institute, which supports abortion rights.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/healt...=.513806319a4d

[Niamh.]

Ridiculous

[Vicky.]

****ing ridiculous. This is always going to be an issue, as its something men cannot have control over in reality, nor should they. Its just biology. I f it was the opposite way and men had the babies, women would not get a say as such...you cannot force someone to go through a pregnancy they don't want, its just wrong.

In an idea world, a decision will be reached with both parents, but quite simply, the woman MUST have the final say and must be able to overrule his opinion, as its her body.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

The decision, described as a first, hinges on the state’s ‘personhood’ law recognising legal rights of the unborn.

An Alabama judge has recognized the legal rights of an aborted fetus,
allowing a man whose girlfriend ended her pregnancy at six weeks to sue
the manufacturer of the pill she used and the clinic that gave it to her.

The decree, issued by Madison County Probate Judge Frank Barger, explicitly
states “Baby Roe” is a person and allows plaintiff Ryan Magers to name the
fetus as a co-plaintiff in the suit for “wrongful death.” Magers said in court
filings that when his then-girlfriend discovered she was pregnant in early 2017,
he “repeatedly pleaded” with her to carry the pregnancy to term and give birth,
but she wanted to have an abortion.

Abortion rights groups expressed alarm, saying the Alabama judge’s decision last
month sets a dangerous precedent at a time when the idea of “fetal rights” — which
recognize embryos and fetuses as separate from the women who carry them — is gaining
currency in state legislatures, courts and law enforcement agencies. In one New Jersey case,
a mother lost custody of her child when she had a vaginal birth instead of the C-section her
doctors insisted was necessary. In others, pregnant women who drank or took drugs — both illegal
and prescribed — and then had miscarriages were accused of child abuse. And dozens of states have
passed fetal homicide laws that treat the unborn as a separate entity from the woman carrying them.

Ilyse Hogue, president of NARAL Pro-Choice America, tweeted Tuesday that the Alabama lawsuit is
a “very scary case.” It asserts that a woman’s rights are “third in line,” after the rights of a
man who impregnates her and the fetus she aborts, she said.

“It has the potential to be used in other states, and it’s part of abortion opponents being
emboldened … and conservatives turning over every rock to see how they can ban abortion,”
said Elizabeth Nash, who studies state legislation at the Guttmacher Institute, which supports abortion rights.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/healt...=.513806319a4d

Womens rights are being trampled left, right and centre at the moment it seems, but this is Alabama, I wouldn't expect anything else


Take that rape Steam game for instance that would never have got past the ideas stage if it were male rape involved

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Womens rights are being trampled left, right and centre at the moment it seems, but this is Alabama, I wouldn't expect anything else


Take that rape Steam game for instance that would never have got past the ideas stage if it were male rape involved

Yeah or child rape. But it's acceptable for women to be raped it seems

[bitontheslide]

i'm usually pretty slow on the uptake, but I have certainly noticed a fairly major erosion of womens rights almost on a daily basis over the last 18 months, its quite shocking

[Josy]

Pathetic

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

i'm usually pretty slow on the uptake, but I have certainly noticed a fairly major erosion of womens rights almost on a daily basis over the last 18 months, its quite shocking

It really is, it feels like we're going backwards

[arista]

Its typical USA

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

i'm usually pretty slow on the uptake, but I have certainly noticed a fairly major erosion of womens rights almost on a daily basis over the last 18 months, its quite shocking

Oh for sure, there is a targetted attack on womens rights over the past few years, from many angles. Its scary really, and many seem quite willing to give away the few rights we have :/

You know the abortion argument from MRAs, tends to be 'men should get a say in abortions'...which on the face of it seems sort of reasonable, BUT they also say, if men do not want to bring up/pay for a kid then they should be able to make the woman get rid. So basically..a woman gets no say at all even though its her undergoing either the medical procedure (which is not ****ing pleasant..or easy) or a pregnancy (which again is not as easy as they seem to think it is..though less dangerous thse days). Basically just more..'rargh men should have control of everything, even biology'. Its all the womans fault when something happens, and she should not get a choice, it should all be the man who decides because, thats right

Also quite interesting, is these 'abortion is murder' types tend to crossover with those who think that parents who **** off should not have to pay for the kids they abandon (well, they stick up for fathers who **** off at least, obviously mothers ****ing off is rarer, but those are basically the devil and should be hunted down and imprisoned...). I have even recently noticed a crossover with these religious types, and saying that even contraception is murder as it was a potential child 'chucked away' So everyone should just have endless babies then...as anything else is murder. Well, that would end well.

[parmnion]

It's a tough one because the law the man is using was set up to prosecute neglectful parents who damaged their unborn kids by drinking and taking drugs.

[LeatherTrumpet]

i wonder why she did not tell the father that she was going to abort the baby?

seems odd

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

i wonder why she did not tell the father that she was going to abort the baby?

seems odd

Erm, given his reaction has been to sue the clinic, I think thats probably quite obvious

[Tom4784]

His permission?

What an arsehole, a woman can do what they want with their own bodies and if men like this don't like it, they can figure out a way to carry babies instead. Until that happens they need to shut the **** up.

****ty attitude from the man and a desperate cashgrab to boot. Vile.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

His permission?

What an arsehole, a woman can do what they want with their own bodies and if men like this don't like it, they can figure out a way to carry babies instead. Until that happens they need to shut the **** up.

****ty attitude from the man and a desperate cashgrab to boot. Vile.

So you are saying that in any relationship where a happy couple conceive the woman can go off an abort the baby at anytime without discussion and if the man is upset he can F+++ off?

that cant be what you mean (I may have got the wrong end of the stick?)

[Toy Soldier]

It ultimately always has to be the woman's choice. That said, I do think there should always be a conversation just borne of mutual respect before action is taken, even if their mind is made up, just to explain the reasons and talk it through. I obviously don't think it should be legally mandated but I do think it's morally the right thing to do.

Obviously, that's only if it's a normal relationship or situation. If it's any sort of abusive relationship or there's a risk of such then there are clear reasons for not having that conversation. Also if it's just the result of a one night stand with a random I don't think it's particularly necessary.

Most men (unless there's some religious element) will ultimately accept the decision if it's a respectful relationship, even if they're upset at first. A lot of the hurt caused by these things comes as much from "being left in the dark" as it does the actual outcome.

[Vicky.]

There should be talks about it of course, ideally. It should be a joint decision, in a way. However, the ultimate decision must come down to the woman, and of course she should be able to overrule what the man wants. However, I think that usually it IS talked about, in abusive relationships...not so much. I figure this woman knew the reaction to her saying she wanted an abortion, hence doing it 'behind his back'.

Of course men can be upset about it, but there is no solution to this. It really cannot be any other way, for civilised people at least.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

There should be talks about it of course, ideally. It should be a joint decision, in a way. However, the ultimate decision must come down to the woman, and of course she should be able to overrule what the man wants. However, I think that usually it IS talked about, in abusive relationships...not so much. I figure this woman knew the reaction to her saying she wanted an abortion, hence doing it 'behind his back'.

Of course men can be upset about it, but there is no solution to this. It really cannot be any other way, for civilised people at least.

Yes I agree with that; even if the man is adamant that he doesn't want it to be done the decision is ultimately the woman's.

[Ashley.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

i wonder why she did not tell the father that she was going to abort the baby?

seems odd

Odd? He isn't the one having the child, and therefore he shouldn't have the final say. Seems fair to me.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

So you are saying that in any relationship where a happy couple conceive the woman can go off an abort the baby at anytime without discussion and if the man is upset he can F+++ off?

that cant be what you mean (I may have got the wrong end of the stick?)

Yes because it's her body, he doesn't have a claim on it. It's women who go through the process, it's women who take the risks so the idea that they have to ask for permission from a man for an abortion is ridiculous. We don't go through pregnancy so why should we dictate whether a woman should be forced through it?

Also it's not a ****ing baby, it's a collection of cells that could not sustain life on it's own.

This man is a money grabbing arsehole and I hope he gets laughed out of court.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Ashley.

Odd? He isn't the one having the child, and therefore he shouldn't have the final say. Seems fair to me.

isnt it that he had no say as she did not tell him?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Ashley.

Odd? He isn't the one having the child, and therefore he shouldn't have the final say. Seems fair to me.

To be fair LT did say "tell", not "ask". I agree that it's entirely the woman's choice but I also think (again, if it';s an actual relationship, not some random and not an abusive relationship) that the right thing to do would be to inform the father of the decision even if there's no chance it's going to change.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Yes because it's her body, he doesn't have a claim on it. It's women who go through the process, it's women who take the risks so the idea that they have to ask for permission from a man for an abortion is ridiculous. We don't go through pregnancy so why should we dictate whether a woman should be forced through it?

Also it's not a ****ing baby, it's a collection of cells that could not sustain life on it's own.

This man is a money grabbing arsehole and I hope he gets laughed out of court.

Again, respectfully informing a partner of a decision, even one that isn't going to change, is clearly not "asking for permission" it's basic decency in any relationship. To reiterate, not saying that anyone "has to" do anything, but on a personal level, I wouldn't be in a continuing relationship with someone on those terms.

[Denver]

I never understand when people say men should have no say on an unborn baby

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Again, respectfully informing a partner of a decision, even one that isn't going to change, is clearly not "asking for permission" it's basic decency in any relationship. To reiterate, not saying that anyone "has to" do anything, but on a personal level, I wouldn't be in a continuing relationship with someone on those terms.

He pleaded with her not to have an abortion so he knew. It's not like she just upped and popped an abo-bo pill one day and even if she did, it's her right to do so.

When it comes to the pregnancy process, we are just, at best, supportive spectators. It's not us going through it's effects. The man's actions are both money grabbing and it sets a dangerous precedent that can set women's rights back, he's an arsehole.

It's down to the women's discretion whether they want to discuss it or not.