[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Smithy

People voted for leave having no idea what it would entail, forecasts have shown that the UK will be worse off regardless of any deal, why should people be denied a vote now they know the facts?

The only people that don’t want a second referendum are leavers who are terrified that people have realized what a **** show this is and will vote to remain

A second referendum would be a blow to the heart of our parliamentary democracy. It would introduce the principle – elitist to the core – that the legitimacy of a political decision rests upon a judgment about the knowledge that informed it. And it would rely on a dirty plebiscitarianism as a way out of the political impasse in Westminster. Those arguing for a second referendum should be careful what they wish for. Chaos is rarely a harbinger of good outcomes.

• Chris Bickerton teaches politics at Cambridge University

https://www.theguardian.com/global/c...y-peoples-vote


Chris disagrees with you

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

A second referendum would be a blow to the heart of our parliamentary democracy. It would introduce the principle – elitist to the core – that the legitimacy of a political decision rests upon a judgment about the knowledge that informed it. And it would rely on a dirty plebiscitarianism as a way out of the political impasse in Westminster. Those arguing for a second referendum should be careful what they wish for. Chaos is rarely a harbinger of good outcomes.

• Chris Bickerton teaches politics at Cambridge University

https://www.theguardian.com/global/c...y-peoples-vote

There wasn't a concrete plan to leave first time around. Do you agree with that?

I'm not talking about a general leave or remain referendum, I'm talking about get a brexit plan together and put that on a ballot against remaining.

Would that really be an attack on democracy?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Smithy

People voted for leave having no idea what it would entail, forecasts have shown that the UK will be worse off regardless of any deal, why should people be denied a vote now they know the facts?

The only people that don’t want a second referendum are leavers who are terrified that people have realized what a **** show this is and will vote to remain

Neither leave nor remain had any idea what was going on because it wasn't presented to us. But people with a brain looked into the likely impacts of no deal, they considered exports and imports, at least I did before I voted. And not just leavers, remainers too... but there are small pockets on both sides who think the other side are complete morons. I guess you're in that group.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

A second referendum would be a blow to the heart of our parliamentary democracy. It would introduce the principle – elitist to the core – that the legitimacy of a political decision rests upon a judgment about the knowledge that informed it. And it would rely on a dirty plebiscitarianism as a way out of the political impasse in Westminster. Those arguing for a second referendum should be careful what they wish for. Chaos is rarely a harbinger of good outcomes.

• Chris Bickerton teaches politics at Cambridge University

https://www.theguardian.com/global/c...y-peoples-vote


Chris disagrees with you

I agree with Chris.

[Rob!]

Originally Posted by Livia

It's not my job to prove your point, Rob. I could post half a dozen newspaper articles with a views in 180deg opposition to these.

I'm not asking you to prove my point. It's a point that is evident from the many people who are saying it. Denying they exist is hardly beneficial is it?

[Smithy]

Originally Posted by Livia

Neither leave nor remain had any idea what was going on because it wasn't presented to us. But people with a brain looked into the likely impacts of no deal, they considered exports and imports, at least I did before I voted. And not just leavers, remainers too... but there are small pockets on both sides who think the other side are complete morons. I guess you're in that group.

People with a brain might have, a lot of people however were riled up with right wing nonsense and a bus saying 350million pound would go to the NHS. People who voted leave were lied to. Fact.

[bitontheslide]

Sack all our current mp's and get a new lot in that actually reflect the views of their constituents

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Smithy

People with a brain might have, a lot of people however were riled up with right wing nonsense and a bus saying 350million pound would go to the NHS. People who voted leave were lied to. Fact.

DO you think any one is lied to in general elections?

Do you remember Tony Blair?

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

A second referendum would be a blow to the heart of our parliamentary democracy. It would introduce the principle – elitist to the core – that the legitimacy of a political decision rests upon a judgment about the knowledge that informed it. And it would rely on a dirty plebiscitarianism as a way out of the political impasse in Westminster. Those arguing for a second referendum should be careful what they wish for. Chaos is rarely a harbinger of good outcomes.

• Chris Bickerton teaches politics at Cambridge University

https://www.theguardian.com/global/c...y-peoples-vote

Don't ever ask for a second Scottish ref in your lifetime then

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Smithy

People with a brain might have, a lot of people however were riled up with right wing nonsense and a bus saying 350million pound would go to the NHS. People who voted leave were lied to. Fact.

I have faith in the wisdom of crowds, I don't subscribe to the thinking that anyone who wasn't of the same mind as me is an idiot. Nor am I impressed by right wing nonsense. Every time that bus appeared people were criticising it. I don't know anyone who was taken in by it. The truth is, remain lost the referendum. And that's it.

[hijaxers]

Originally Posted by Smithy

People with a brain might have, a lot of people however were riled up with right wing nonsense and a bus saying 350million pound would go to the NHS. People who voted leave were lied to. Fact.

I'm sick of hearing about that bloody bus , it had zero to do with how i voted or anyone else i know , i've been waiting years for this vote and mine went back by return of post.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Rob!

I'm not asking you to prove my point. It's a point that is evident from the many people who are saying it. Denying they exist is hardly beneficial is it?

"Many leavers are looking at the mess and saying that they would now vote completely differently."

That's what you said initially. I know many leavers and they're all adamant that we leave, like the referendum result said. The only people I hear saying they want to remain are remainers.

[Rob!]

Originally Posted by Livia

I have faith in the wisdom of crowds, I don't subscribe to the thinking that anyone who wasn't of the same mind as me is an idiot. Nor am I impressed by right wing nonsense. Every time that bus appeared people were criticising it. I don't know anyone who was taken in by it. The truth is, remain lost the referendum. And that's it.

Nobody is denying that. But don't you think that we now know more about the potential results that we did the first time the question was put to us? Surely that means that we deserve a second say at the very least? The definition of democracy is that we're allowed to change our minds as Theresa May so kindly keeps trying to give parliament the opportunity to do. If the UK still wants to leave, then the result surely won't change?

[James]

I'd say leave with May's deal, which is (mainly) only a transitional arrangement anyway, and would buy us two more years to find some sort of consensus about the future relationship with the EU.

It would probably end up being soft Brexit one way or another.

[reece(:]

Revoke or leave with Norway plus/Canada arrangement

[bitontheslide]

i think if no deal looks like being the way we are heading, having voted against that in the majority only last week, they should then revoke with the condition of there being a new referendum.

The referendum should then be a simple choice, remain or leave without a deal. This means everyone is clear on exactly what their choice is and there will be no further negotiation with the EU

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Rob!

Nobody is denying that. But don't you think that we now know more about the potential results that we did the first time the question was put to us? Surely that means that we deserve a second say at the very least? The definition of democracy is that we're allowed to change our minds as Theresa May so kindly keeps trying to give parliament the opportunity to do. If the UK still wants to leave, then the result surely won't change?

Regardless of the outcome of a second referendum, it would be undemocratic to hold one.

May's deal keeps us tied to the EU.

Personally I think we should still leave... but remainers have screwed the whole process into the ground, strung it out, voted against, in the hopes we'll stay.

Just my opinion of course.

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Livia

"Many leavers are looking at the mess and saying that they would now vote completely differently."

That's what you said initially. I know many leavers and they're all adamant that we leave, like the referendum result said. The only people I hear saying they want to remain are remainers.

To be fair, I know a few leavers who changed their minds = mainly because they are so pissed off with the whole thing they think it would just be easier to stay in.

I voted remain, I still want to remain - but cannot be arsed with another 2 years of this. I do still believe if we leave with no deal we are in for a whole world of pain in the immediate aftermath and for a good few years but I want the whole debacle over.

Now, if you excuse me, I am off to stockpile toilet rolls and tinned tuna.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Livia

Anecdotal evidence is not useful here.




Remainers seem to have lost their grasp of what democracy means. It's not open to interpretation.

And what are we leaving? What have people voted to leave? Do they even know themselves?
EU
Single Market
Customs' Union

You do realize you can leave EU and remain in the other two? They may be conflated with the EU but in fact they are stand-alonge entities. That was not asked.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

To be fair, I know a few leavers who changed their minds = mainly because they are so pissed off with the whole thing they think it would just be easier to stay in.

I voted remain, I still want to remain - but cannot be arsed with another 2 years of this. I do still believe if we leave with no deal we are in for a whole world of pain in the immediate aftermath and for a good few years but I want the whole debacle over.

Now, if you excuse me, I am off to stockpile toilet rolls and tinned tuna.

LOL... Annie... you do make me laugh x

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

And what are we leaving? What have people voted to leave? Do they even know themselves?
EU
Single Market
Customs' Union

You do realize you can leave EU and remain in the other two? They may be conflated with the EU but in fact they are stand-alonge entities. That was not asked.

Is this you not patronising me again, sugar squared? You're sh1t at it x

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Livia

Is this you not patronising me again, sugar squared? You're sh1t at it x

doesn't answer my question

edit: and no, I'm not trying to patronise, that' just my style of discussion
so get used to it and lay off those lame accusations

[LeatherTrumpet]

I must say there is a certain irony about TM and her deal and the referendum

"its no good" says parliament

"wait let me try again" says may

"its no good" says parliament

"wait, look at it now, iv changed the font" says may

"its no good" says parliament

"wait, let me give a billion quid to the DUP, how about now? says may

"its no good" says parliament



"how about another referendum PM?" says the Great British Public


says May - you had one, Brexit means Brexit, how dare you

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

doesn't answer my question

Yes, I realise that you can leave one and remain in the other two. Was that your question?

[Rob!]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I must say there is a certain irony about TM and her deal and the referendum

"its no good" says parliament

"wait let me try again" says may

"its no good" says parliament

"wait, look at it now, iv changed the font" says may

"its no good" says parliament

"wait, let me give a billion quid to the DUP, how about now? says may

"its no good" says parliament



"how about another referendum PM?" says the Great British Public


says May - you had one, Brexit means Brexit, how dare you