[Redway]

Deep-ish for an early morning thread. What are people’s thoughts on reincarnation/life after death?

[Elliot]

I don’t believe in it at all. While I’d like to there’s literally 0 logic behind a lot of afterlife theories, even ‘scientific’ and it’s no wonder they’re so frequent in religion

[Jigs]

I like to think I'll live again, only with no recollection of my previous life. However I realise this is extremely unlikely and there's no empirical evidence to suggest anything about any sort of afterlife

[Niamh.]

As humans we only live once imo but I suppose you could say we live on in other things when we return to the ground through plant life etc?

[smudgie]

Your body dies, your soul lives on.

None of this playing harps on fluffy clouds stuff, maybe more of waiting about to be reincarnated.

[Northern Monkey]

What is a soul really though?
To me it’s an ancient religious idea that made it possible to enter an afterlife.An idea that has carried over until now.

I think,Once the blood stops pumping,the oxygen stops,the brain dies and the spark goes out.Then that’s it.Any idea of a soul dies with it.

Our brains are incredibly clever machines and they give us a sense of self.
We are just biological AI’s.

[Toy Soldier]

Since physical changes to the brain (deterioration or trauma, or even just hormonal and chemical fluctuation) can significantly alter both personality and memory, it seems to me that it's effectively proven that personality is not separate to the physical brain, and thus its very unlikely that an individual personality (as we understand it) persists when the brain is dead / destroyed.

As I know you've posted lots about ECT Redway, I think it's worth asking the question; how can you believe that an individual exists outside of their physical brain and persists when that brain ceases to exist, and also believe in ECT (that physically affecting the brain can alter mood or even personality)? I find the two to be inherently incompatible.

[Livia]

We don't even know how out own brains work. No way can we comprehend what happens after we die, even if we think we know. Those who have faith see it differently... and not just those who have faith, spiritual people too.

If someone believe that we go on after death, why not allow them that belief?

[parmnion]

You all get sucked up into the giant brain of the very first one of your ancestors who came to earth years and years ago..he pissed off back to wherever he came from leaving his jizz to populate his brain food on earth.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Livia

We don't even know how out own brains work. No way can we comprehend what happens after we die, even if we think we know. Those who have faith see it differently... and not just those who have faith, spiritual people too.

If someone believe that we go on after death, why not allow them that belief?

I don't think anyone is disallowing other people their beliefs... But does allowing people their beliefs mean never discussing belief (or the lack)? Sharing the belief that it doesn't seem logically likely (and the reasons for that belief) is no different to someone sharing their belief that it is possible?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by parmnion

You all get sucked up into the giant brain of the very first one of your ancestors who came to earth years and years ago..he pissed off back to wherever he came from leaving his jizz to populate his brain food on earth.

This seems like a feasible option also.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't think anyone is disallowing other people their beliefs... But does allowing people their beliefs mean never discussing belief (or the lack)? Sharing the belief that it doesn't seem logically likely (and the reasons for that belief) is no different to someone sharing their belief that it is possible?

It only seems to be people who don't believe in an After life who aren't allowed voice their opinions aswell. It's perfectly fine for you to say you believe in reincarnation rather than Heaven even though that's also saying you don't think Heaven is real

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

We don't even know how out own brains work. No way can we comprehend what happens after we die, even if we think we know. Those who have faith see it differently... and not just those who have faith, spiritual people too.

If someone believe that we go on after death, why not allow them that belief?

Well said Livia.

I have always myself tried to keep an open mind on this.

Form personal experiences and the faith I was born into, although I have moved considerably from that faith now, particularly as to its teachings.

You make very strong points.

[MTVN]

What afterlife that's non reincarnation do people believe in out of interest? Heaven?

[Shaun]

Yeah I think any form of afterlife would have to technically constitute as "reincarnation" lol, whether it's literal (ie. corporeal) or spiritual.

I don't believe in it but it's not something that preoccupies me and is something I'm more than happy to be proved wrong on, lol. Just not if that means I have to subscribe to some sort of religious code to make sure I get a "nice afterlife".

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't think anyone is disallowing other people their beliefs... But does allowing people their beliefs mean never discussing belief (or the lack)? Sharing the belief that it doesn't seem logically likely (and the reasons for that belief) is no different to someone sharing their belief that it is possible?

No, it doesn't mean no one should discuss it. It's just that the "once you're dead, you're dead and that's it" stance is pretty cold because the people who uphold that belief are so very sure of themselves. I remember being recently-bereaved and having several people tell me in a discussion how once you're dead you just rot in the ground. Now, I don't claim that they were saying stuff to upset me, they weren't. It's just no one knows for sure. No one. And in addition, non-religious people don't understand faith so attack it all the time in the firm opinion that they're right.

I do believe our soul, our energy, whatever you want to call it goes on and I also believe that what happens to you when you're dead depends on the kind of life you've lived.

Jews don't believe in heaven and hell, it's complicated... but there's a Jewish joke that says when we die we all go the the same place where Moses and other rabbis teach the Torah and the Talmud for eternity. To the righteous, this is heaven. To the wicked, it equates to eternal suffering.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by MTVN

What afterlife that's non reincarnation do people believe in out of interest? Heaven?

I believe "something" happens. I have no idea what.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

It only seems to be people who don't believe in an After life who aren't allowed voice their opinions aswell. It's perfectly fine for you to say you believe in reincarnation rather than Heaven even though that's also saying you don't think Heaven is real

That's not true.

The people that have no religion and the people who believe you just rot when you die believe they're right. I'm tired of defending my religion on here while people insult it because somehow they think they're more enlightened. It's impossible to discuss religion, and as a consequence, life after death, and not have your faith attacked by people with what they believe to be facts.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

That's not true.

The people that have no religion and the people who believe you just rot when you die believe they're right. I'm tired of defending my religion on here while people insult it because somehow they think they're more enlightened. It's impossible to discuss religion, and as a consequence, life after death, and not have your faith attacked by people with what they believe to be facts.

No one is asking you to defend anything, if you don't want to debate then don't? And so what if people believe they're right about there being no afterlife, people who believe there is also believe they're right

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

No one is asking you to defend anything, if you don't want to debate then don't? And so what if people believe they're right about there being no afterlife, people who believe there is also believe they're right

I don't know why you're being prickly with me Niamh. Have I upset you in some way?

I always say I uphold everyone's right to have their own their beliefs without being called a moron, or told they're believing in fairy stories. Everyone has a right to their beliefs, or to having none. Sadly that doesn't ever seem to be a two way street.

[Moniqua]

when we die, our spirit/soul leaves our bodies and then we just float wherever we want around the world for eternity WHEW

[Nicky91]

i don't know what to believe honestly

[Toy Soldier]

Giving it consideration I've gone with "other".

I stand by what I said before; "personality" is so firmly linked to the physical structure and chemical makeup of the brain that I don't think, in the absense of that brain, anything that's left behind could feasibly be thought of as "that same person". After all, what is a person? It so fundamentally affected by things like hormonal changes - and even just time - that surely it's impossible to take a snapshot of "a person" and say that it persists. Which version of the self? You today? You 5 years ago? You when your adrenaline is spiking? You when your serotonin is low? All very "different people" and you can take that to an extreme with dementia and brain injury. Brain injury has been shown to RADICALLY alter personality; turning the nicest people you'll ever meet nasty, or the gentlest of "souls" dangerously violent. So what if that happens to someone, and then 5 years later they die? "Who" is in the afterlife? Is it that "good" person who once existed, or is it the "bad" violent one that existed at the time of death? What of dementia? Does the healthy adult they were 30 years before they died live on in the afterlife, or the confused 90 year old with no memory of their loved ones who existed in the years leading up to death? And if we say it's the younger one - then what of that older personality? Did they simply never exist? Is their existence doomed because they're a less desirable version of "them"?

I can't get my head around that. I just don't know that identities are strong enough to persist in any meaningful way even DURING life, let alone beyond it. People who existed 10 years ago don't exist today - and it's not because they died. Where are those individuals?


So then I get onto, what IS possible in terms of persistent life... because I'm not dogmatically atheist and I don't think we as human beings have even scraped the surface of science, let alone having "all the answers".

There's a lot of pretty solid theory that "time" is nothing like we perceive it or understand it... and that's where I think it gets interesting. In theory, there is no such thing as now, or then, today, or yesterday... and thus no such thing as alive, or dead. If time really isn't linear then everyone who exists today, has ever existed, or will ever exist as we perceive it actually all exist concurrently and infinitely. So I suppose that's believing in life after death, or rather, life alongside death? "After" is a meaningless word if you're talking about non-linear existence though so I guess not technically an afterlife... just "life", no before or after. Just existence, all at once.

[The Slim Reaper]

There is no evidence that any of this is more than a nice story we tell each other to feel better about the fact we die.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

There is no evidence that any of this is more than a nice story we tell each other to feel better about the fact we die.

Well yes, to be fair there's a lot of evidence (or at least supporting theory) that the classic concepts of "heaven" and "reincarnation" aren't even to make us feel better about the dead, but rather, to make the "average working person" in a society feel better about their life as it is. From classic agricultural societies onwards there's been a heavy focus on "the good stuff" / morality that gets you into heaven involving A) Hard work and B) Not complaining about the hard work. People are less likely to complain about being oppressed and exploited if they believe that the "sweat of their brow" is a moral victory, and less likely to complain about poor or unequal quality of life if they believe that their "grand reward" awaits in the afterlife.

If people can see a light at the end of the tunnel, they'll keep trudging down the tunnel. If there's no light at the end - they might try to find their own solution - and "those at the top" certainly do NOT want that to happen.

It's slowly phasing out in the modern world though, in favour of entertainment and distraction. People are content with bite-sized servings of everyday happiness rather than "BIG happiness at the end, I promise!"