[Livia]

Considering the terrible things that have happened to LGBT community in the past, I think if someone, accidentally or on purpose, misgenders them, it doesn't really warrant this whole hysterical backlash over someone's momentarily hurt feelings..

[Ammi]

....for many things change only happens though when awareness is raised...when concerns are raised and issues are raised...that’s not hysterical, there’s nothing hysterical about this case so far as I can see...she wrote to the hospital administration which was completely appropriate...I mean I just can’t see that ‘blokes in frocks’ can and will be moved on from in trans awareness because this is not dress up stuff..yeah I do understand in some situations it may not always be easier to tell the difference...?....but that’s surely why it’s important that these things do become highlighted...

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

....for many things change only happens though when awareness is raised...when concerns are raised and issues are raised...that’s not hysterical, there’s nothing hysterical about this case so far as I can see...she wrote to the hospital administration which was completely appropriate...I mean I just can’t see that ‘blokes in frocks’ can and will be moved on from in trans awareness because this is not dress up stuff..yeah I do understand in some situations it may not always be easier to tell the difference...?....but that’s surely why it’s important that these things do become highlighted...

Sure, yet anytime women raise concerns around trans issues, specifically self Iding, that's exactly what we're called. Shouldn't it work both ways?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Ammi

....for many things change only happens though when awareness is raised...when concerns are raised and issues are raised...that’s not hysterical, there’s nothing hysterical about this case so far as I can see...she wrote to the hospital administration which was completely appropriate...I mean I just can’t see that ‘blokes in frocks’ can and will be moved on from in trans awareness because this is not dress up stuff..yeah I do understand in some situations it may not always be easier to tell the difference...?....but that’s surely why it’s important that these things do become highlighted...

She was wearing an Ann Summers Mrs Santa outfit.

When I worked for an MP, we had countless cases come to surgery, families who were appalled by the neglect of their loved ones in hospitals, almost always elderly people who were left hungry, dehydrated, covered in bedsores, suffering unexplained injuries injuries. Because the families had got themselves Power of Attorney for finance, but not for medical care, there was little they could do. Social services couldn't provide a care place, nor would they allow the person home, so they were kept in the geriatric ward and treated like scum. I never ever saw a letter of apology from a hospital.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Sure, yet anytime women raise concerns around trans issues, specifically self Iding, that's exactly what we're called. Shouldn't it work both ways?

Only if it's hysterical?

"This is a sensitive issue on all sides that needs careful consideration before making new policies than may affect women"... fair and not hysterical.

"Blokes are dressing up as women to assault them and there are going to be sexual attacks right, left and centre!!!" ... needless and hysterical.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Livia

She was wearing an Ann Summers Mrs Santa outfit.

When I worked for an MP, we had countless cases come to surgery, families who were appalled by the neglect of their loved ones in hospitals, almost always elderly people who were left hungry, dehydrated, covered in bedsores, suffering unexplained injuries injuries. Because the families had got themselves Power of Attorney for finance, but not for medical care, there was little they could do. Social services couldn't provide a care place, nor would they allow the person home, so they were kept in the geriatric ward and treated like scum. I never ever saw a letter of apology from a hospital.

...yeah I do get that completely, Liv...that she was wearing something which I guess is specifically associated with ‘dress up’ or cosplay or whatever it is...I’m not familiar with the correct term...hence the bloke in frock thing I said and what you were saying about males that can dress up for stags etc and parties..?...errors can be understandable if something is unclear or misunderstood..?...but surely that’s even more reason why these things should be raised to clarify...?...because the fact of it is, it is extremely sad important to the trans community and surely should be to all of us...


...and yes I know the NHS had lots of issues ..(...and many great strengths as well...)...but one thing does not have any bearing on the other of this issue in my view...it’s a completely separate thing and deserves its own ‘airing’ with the hospital administration..l

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Sure, yet anytime women raise concerns around trans issues, specifically self Iding, that's exactly what we're called. Shouldn't it work both ways?

...yeah of course it should be a balanced field...I’m not sure which women have been called hysterical and for what reason....but when I find out, there’ll be trouble to pay.....

[bitontheslide]

Every time I venture out I could be offended by someone if I was minded too, and I would probably be perfectly justified in feeling that way too. The point being, if you go out looking to be offended you will be, but what is the point in letting others get you down? It's not a recipe for a mentally healthy life. To me it points to bigger issues that exist within the individual. Harsh maybe, but unless its behaviour repeated multiple times by the same individual, really, who cares.

[Ammi]

...or not..

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Every time I venture out I could be offended by someone if I was minded too, and I would probably be perfectly justified in feeling that way too. The point being, if you go out looking to be offended you will be, but what is the point in letting others get you down? It's not a recipe for a mentally healthy life. Yo me it points to bigger issues that exist within the individual. Harsh maybe, but unless its behaviour repeated multiple times by the same individual, really, who cares.

You've hit the nail on the head

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Only if it's hysterical?

"This is a sensitive issue on all sides that needs careful consideration before making new policies than may affect women"... fair and not hysterical.

"Blokes are dressing up as women to assault them and there are going to be sexual attacks right, left and centre!!!" ... needless and hysterical.

...raising potential concerns before any incident or issue... ‘prevent’..is also not hysterical though...only hysterical is hysterical...as in uncontrolled and unreasonable and negatively emotional etc..l

[Ammi]

...I just don’t know what particular thing Niamh is referring to in terms of women or a woman having been labelled hysterical for discussing anything trans related...my thoughts are just really focused on this story...

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Only if it's hysterical?

"This is a sensitive issue on all sides that needs careful consideration before making new policies than may affect women"... fair and not hysterical.

"Blokes are dressing up as women to assault them and there are going to be sexual attacks right, left and centre!!!" ... needless and hysterical.

Anytime a story bringing anything about trans issues is posted here it's called a smear campaign, anytime any concerns are raised it's hysteria or just transphobia .

In regards to your first example, the "reasonable one", unfortunately nobody seems to be consulted at all before policies (such as allowing transwomen in womens sports) are put through, so alot of times it's too late for lets discuss this first

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Livia

She was wearing an Ann Summers Mrs Santa outfit.

I understand why in this case that could cause a misunderstanding - it IS feasible that a non-trans male might dress up as Mrs Claus "pantomime style" for a Christmas thing and if it was a simple misunderstanding then that's one thing. However, the claim being made is that AFTER clarification was made that it was indeed a trans individual, the staff member openly showed disdain / disgust saying "Urgh", being dismissive, etc. and that's what makes it a different story. You could then say "well it's one person's word against another" as when emotions are high people tend to see things differently than they were intended... but again, the claim and complaint here is that there are uninvolved / unbiased witnesses who saw how the staff member reacted but no one asked those witnesses before accepting the staff member's explanation that it was just a misunderstanding.

So I suppose, the main issue here isn't the initial misgendering which CAN obviously happen completely innocently. Hell, it happens to non-trans people! A co-worker of mine once bellowed "EXCUSE ME!! That's the ladies!!" across the room at a little old man... who turned out to be a little old lady with a pixie cut . The issue is how the staff member reacted after clarification was made. The professional thing to do is to apologise and then refer to that person as they wish to be. The extremely UNprofessional option is a sceptical eye-roll and "ugh!". Like I said if there are two sides to the story then there needs to be balance, but if there ARE indeed witnesses - it's a clear staff attitude problem and should be considered one by the service .

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I just don’t know what particular thing Niamh is referring to in terms of women or a woman having been labelled hysterical for discussing anything trans related...my thoughts are just really focused on this story...

You haven't been posting here in a while Ammi

I don't know why I even started posting here again about this stuff because it does always tend to go round in circles

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Anytime a story bringing anything about trans issues is posted here it's called a smear campaign, anytime any concerns are raised it's hysteria or just transphobia .

In regards to your first example, the "reasonable one", unfortunately nobody seems to be consulted at all before policies (such as allowing transwomen in womens sports) are put through, so alot of times it's too late for lets discuss this first

It seems the only people who are fair game for any negative comments are straight, white people

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

You haven't been posting here in a while Ammi

I don't know why even started posting here again about this stuff because it does always tend to go round in circles

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

You haven't been posting here in a while Ammi

I don't know why I even started posting here again about this stuff because it does always tend to go round in circles

...yeah..maybe there was A THREAD.....

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...yeah..maybe there was A THREAD.....

Great to see you back though, you were missed

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I just don’t know what particular thing Niamh is referring to in terms of women or a woman having been labelled hysterical for discussing anything trans related...my thoughts are just really focused on this story...

I believe it might be referring to this;

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

And yet, the unrelated examples come out in force every time there's a thread even vaguely related to trans issues. Hmmm. And a LOT of protestations if it's pointed out; honestly it's the biggest backlash you'll get on this forum. A sensitive issue, clearly, though people are hesitant to admit it, and that says plenty.



Yes I imagine it probably seems so if you immerse yourself in social media/forum melting pots full of confirmation bias and frenzied hysteria.

(the above BIB is in reference to the way these discussions go on "Mumsnet")

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Oh hysteria

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's not a word I particularly like because of the etymology but honestly if you've ever been on a "more colourful" Mumsnet thread, I don't think there's any other applicable word. Pitchforks and paranoia.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Great to see you back though, you were missed

.....(...you were missed also by me..)...

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I believe it might be referring to this;



(the above BIB is in reference to the way these discussions go on "Mumsnet")

hhhmm I don't think that's the only time I've seen it posted in relation to the topic TS and I certainly wasn't referring to mumsnet I was talking about how people are spoken to or labelled here when they raise concerns about trans issues (specifically Self IDing, sports, prisons etc)

[Toy Soldier]

I stand by it too Ammi; the raging Mumsnet threads on trans rights are ridiculous transphobic witch-hunts that generate completely unreasonable levels of fear an paranoia, and threads on here on trans issues CAN and HAVE gone the same way

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I stand by it too Ammi; the raging Mumsnet threads on trans rights are ridiculous transphobic witch-hunts that generate completely unreasonable levels of fear an paranoia, and threads on here on trans issues CAN and HAVE gone the same way

Well, dismissing womens concerns as hysteria isn't very helpful to discussions either TS, is it?

*not to mention pretty sexist

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

hhhmm I don't think that's the only time I've seen it posted in relation to the topic TS and I certainly wasn't referring to mumsnet I was talking about how people are spoken to or labelled here when they raise concerns about trans issues (specifically Self IDing, sports, prisons etc)

In the recent thread about the issues in sports literally everyone agreed with the premise that there are unfair advantages, and the only disagreement was over the spite / anger / insensitivity that's often on display.

The argument was

"Yeah it's a problem and needs addressed but we need to find sensitive ways to do that"

vs

"TOUGH **** EX PENIS-PEOPLE get your wig off and back to your man-stuff!!!"


No one on this forum argued for trans athletes to be included unquestioningly in male sports. Literally no one. And people still managed to get angry about the mere existence of transpeople. Therein lies the issue that people keep insisting I'm imagining.