[arista]

This all the Facebook Freaks
and other Internet sites at Fault.

We are getting the same problem
in the UK , as well sadly



[The disgraced British former doctor
behind the anti-vaccine movement has
defended his recent communications
with the ultra-Orthodox Jewish
community in the US.
Andrew Garfield published now widely discredited
and condemned research suggesting
a possible link between the MMR vaccine and autism.
In 2010 his licence to practice was revoked
and he was struck off the medical register
in the UK after being found
guilty of dishonesty, the "abuse" of developmentally
delayed children by giving them
unnecessary and invasive
medical procedures, and acting
without ethical approval of his research.]


https://news.sky.com/story/us-faces-...cades-11727836

[Liam-]

It should be illegal to not vaccinate your kids imo.

If you don’t want to vaccinate your kids then like, crack on dummy, but don’t then allow their socialise with other kids, it’s unfair and incredibly irresponsible

[Tom4784]

Anti-Vaxxers should lose their kids for child endangerment of their own children and other children too young to be vaccinated. There's few things I hate more in this world than Anti-Vaxxers, their ignorance is dangerous and they are representative of everything that is wrong with the world.

[Niamh.]

An unfortunate side effect of social media I think

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Liam-

It should be illegal to not vaccinate your kids imo.

If you don’t want to vaccinate your kids then like, crack on dummy, but don’t then allow their socialise with other kids, it’s unfair and incredibly irresponsible

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Anti-Vaxxers should lose their kids for child endangerment of their own children and other children too young to be vaccinated. There's few things I hate more in this world than Anti-Vaxxers, their ignorance is dangerous and they are representative of everything that is wrong with the world.

I'm not anti-vax (and I hate that I --always-- have to preface this opinion with that) but I completely 100% disagree with this dystopian nonsense . Social media is responsible for a lot of the anti-vax movement, yes that's probably true, but it's also responsible for the frankly bizarre levels of terror that surround vaccine-preventable illness, the majority of which are minor and self-limiting.

A child is MASSIVELY - not insignificantly but ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE - at more risk from road traffic accidents as a pedestrian or passenger and that would be true even if NO ONE vaccinated. I've yet to see hoards of people clutching their pearls and screeching about the dangers of cars existing, or suggesting that parents should be stripped of their children for taking them on the motorway .

There are countless other examples beyond this. The phobia (yes, phobia - irrational fear) of the risk presented by MMR-preventable illnesses would be hilarious if it wasn't infuriating. More infuriating still is the gaggle of people bleating about "ignorance" whilst in the same breath suggesting that unvaccinated children are "unlikely to reach adulthood", when if that had any knowledge at all of these diseases or of the statistics surrounding them they would realise how ludicrously over the top statements like that are.

There are some horrendous diseases in the world. They're not the ones we routinely vaccinate against.

There are some groups that are at risk from minor vaccine-preventable illness. Otherwise healthy children and adults are not one of those groups.

Other often ignored points;

1) Vaccines are far from always effective.

2) Unlike natural immunity, vaccines can often wear off and if you go today and have your immunities tested, you will probably discover that you are not immune to many of the things you were vaccinated against as a child. You're one of the unvaccinated . Better stay in your house!

3) Almost all of the social stats surrounding vaccine effectiveness fail to present control variables or adjust for other factors (sanitation, antibiotics, modern healthcare) and are thus (deliberately?) botched.

4) Vaccines do carry risks. This has been medically verified. There is no evidence of a link with autism but there are plenty of other - again, medically and scientifically verified - vaccine injuries that can and do occur. This is frequently outright lied about for fear of more people then rejecting vaccines which may be a valid fear - but it presents a huge problem for me as I believe that in a civilised society it is ESSENTIAL that any medical procedure comes with informed consent and this is being happily pissed into the wind.


Again I'll punctuate this by saying I'm not anti-vax. I'm vaccinated, my children are vaccinated, if I had more children they would be vaccinated, and I would strongly encourage any other parent to have their children vaccinated, and in fact, I would encourage adults to have their immunities checked (because as mentioned before, if you think you're immune to all of the things you were vaccinated against as a child, you're probably living in blissful ignorance).

But it is a medical procedure and should be being discussed openly and properly in a balanced way. It should ALWAYS require respectful consent and the idea that we should start legally mandating people to have needles stuck in them at the government's whim is genuinely horrifying to me.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm not anti-vax (and I hate that I --always-- have to preface this opinion with that) but I completely 100% disagree with this dystopian nonsense . Social media is responsible for a lot of the anti-vax movement, yes that's probably true, but it's also responsible for the frankly bizarre levels of terror that surround vaccine-preventable illness, the majority of which are minor and self-limiting.

A child is MASSIVELY - not insignificantly but ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE - at more risk from road traffic accidents as a pedestrian or passenger and that would be true even if NO ONE vaccinated. I've yet to see hoards of people clutching their pearls and screeching about the dangers of cars existing, or suggesting that parents should be stripped of their children for taking them on the motorway .

There are countless other examples beyond this. The phobia (yes, phobia - irrational fear) of the risk presented by MMR-preventable illnesses would be hilarious if it wasn't infuriating. More infuriating still is the gaggle of people bleating about "ignorance" whilst in the same breath suggesting that unvaccinated children are "unlikely to reach adulthood", when if that had any knowledge at all of these diseases or of the statistics surrounding them they would realise how ludicrously over the top statements like that are.

There are some horrendous diseases in the world. They're not the ones we routinely vaccinate against.

There are some groups that are at risk from minor vaccine-preventable illness. Otherwise healthy children and adults are not one of those groups.

Other often ignored points;

1) Vaccines are far from always effective.

2) Unlike natural immunity, vaccines can often wear off and if you go today and have your immunities tested, you will probably discover that you are not immune to many of the things you were vaccinated against as a child. You're one of the unvaccinated . Better stay in your house!

3) Almost all of the social stats surrounding vaccine effectiveness fail to present control variables or adjust for other factors (sanitation, antibiotics, modern healthcare) and are thus (deliberately?) botched.

4) Vaccines do carry risks. This has been medically verified. There is no evidence of a link with autism but there are plenty of other - again, medically and scientifically verified - vaccine injuries that can and do occur. This is frequently outright lied about for fear of more people then rejecting vaccines which may be a valid fear - but it presents a huge problem for me as I believe that in a civilised society it is ESSENTIAL that any medical procedure comes with informed consent and this is being happily pissed into the wind.


Again I'll punctuate this by saying I'm not anti-vax. I'm vaccinated, my children are vaccinated, if I had more children they would be vaccinated, and I would strongly encourage any other parent to have their children vaccinated, and in fact, I would encourage adults to have their immunities checked (because as mentioned before, if you think you're immune to all of the things you were vaccinated against as a child, you're probably living in blissful ignorance).

But it is a medical procedure and should be being discussed openly and properly in a balanced way. It should ALWAYS require respectful consent and the idea that we should start legally mandating people to have needles stuck in them at the government's whim is genuinely horrifying to me.

This is basically the anti-vaxx equivalent of 'I'm not a racist but...'

[arista]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

An unfortunate side effect of social media I think

Yes but so dangerous in America.
And Now some Online Mum's in UK
are going the same way.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

This is basically the anti-vaxx equivalent of 'I'm not a racist but...'

It isn't, in simple terms all it is, is pointing out that "anti-anti-vax" is often as ridiculous and hysterical as anti-vax and calling for it to be discussed properly and without people screeching and hammering the panic button, and advocating for the government having control over medical procedures.

I think everyone should vaccinate. I will NEVER agree that anyone should be forced. Especially not when the mechanism used for doing so involves grossly exaggerating the medical facts.

But feel free to completely side-step any rational discussion of the issue by all means. The rest of the world does so what's one more.

[Toy Soldier]

Comparing it to racism as well . Really Dezzy? You've scraped right through the barrel and into the pavement.

[AnnieK]

I wasn't vaccinated as a child. My older brother suffered convulsions and was hospitialised after he had his injections so they refused to give them to me. I got them later though, after my brother was again hospitalised because of mumps.

My son was done, didn't cross my mind not to. A lot of my friends (who had kids a lot earlier than I did) paid for individual shots for their kids as they believed the link to autism hype.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

My son was done, didn't cross my mind not to. A lot of my friends (who had kids a lot earlier than I did) paid for individual shots for their kids as they believed the link to autism hype.

Ironically, the three individual measles/mumps/rubella injections are actually riskier than the combined MMR (more injections = higher risk of an adverse reaction).

Tbh though the mumps and rubella vaccines could easily wait until age 8+.

[Mokka]

I held off vaccinating my kids till they were in school. Here in Canada they start when the babies are 3 months old. My issue at that time was they were giving babies a relatively untested HepB vaccination mixed in with everything else... in one shot. I decided it wasn't worth the risk.
When we moved provinces... the health regulations were different and it wasn't all one shot. And my kids were older. It made sense then.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Mokka

I held off vaccinating my kids till they were in school. Here in Canada they start when the babies are 3 months old. My issue at that time was they were giving babies a relatively untested HepB vaccination mixed in with everything else... in one shot. I decided it wasn't worth the risk.
When we moved provinces... the health regulations were different and it wasn't all one shot. And my kids were older. It made sense then.

I personally think a more spread out schedule is sensible and also should be just as effective. There are also a (not small) number of things that the US vaccinate against that the UK doesn't, that are unnecessary. The effectiveness of flu vaccination has also literally NEVER been demonstrated in a legitimate study.

Basically I think they would actually convince far more people to agree to the MMR and DTAP if they weren't pushing to introduce new schedules on top.

Also increasingly in the US they're pushing for the full schedule to be given to babies within the first few months - the effects of which are entirely untested, and it's totally unecessary. The "traditional" schedule that we've had in the UK for decades doesn't need changed, and there don't need to be more.

[Alf]

I can't remember if I've had measles. I'd have to ask me mam.

I do remember having chickenpox when I was younger.

[Twosugars]

TS so what are the risks?

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Comparing it to racism as well . Really Dezzy? You've scraped right through the barrel and into the pavement.

I see that comment went over your head completely.

I'm not comparing it to racism, I'm comparing the old saying that racists often use when they say 'I'm not racist but *Enter racist statement here*'. You said you're not anti-vaxx but you sound very anti-vaxx.

Do you understand now? Need anything else explained to you while I'm here?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

TS so what are the risks?

Fever and seizures are the most common which don't usually have lasting effects but can obviously have the same lasting effect as any fever or seizure if there are complications. The other major one (less common) is anaphylaxis which is obviously much more severe and can result in death. Most other side effects are mild and temporary.

The important factor is of course that the risks of vaccinating are much smaller than the risks of getting the illnesses so it's still the sensible option by far. Though its also worth stating that the risks from vaccine preventable childhood illness is much (much) lower than some people seem to believe.

But the idea that it's risk free is just false. And obviously false, too - there's no such thing as a risk free medical procedure. I get that the "aim" behind pretending there's no risk is to get more people to choose to vaccinate but I think it's wrong headed and patronising, and only adds to the mistrust that already exists.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I see that comment went over your head completely.



I'm not comparing it to racism, I'm comparing the old saying that racists often use when they say 'I'm not racist but *Enter racist statement here*'. You said you're not anti-vaxx but you sound very anti-vaxx.



Do you understand now? Need anything else explained to you while I'm here?

I sound anti-vaxx because I don't want to play into the patronising lie that vaccinations are risk free, despite clearly explaining that I have vaccinated my children, advocate vaccination of children, and clearly have laid out that the risks that exist are smaller than the risks of not vaccinating? OK champ.

I think I'll avoid your explanations since your comprehension here is based in typical tabloid style "outrage nonsense". Not one iota of substance. Meh.

[Cherie]

I agree with everything you said TS, I believe it should be parental choice, at the moment if feels like parents are being pressured by government and other parents into putting something into their children's bodies they are not keen on. No body should be under pressure to do anything to their bodies they are not comfortable with. Like the uptake of the flu jab, we were routinely offered it at the special school I used to work at, I never took it up but some people felt pressured to do so as they felt they would be singled out if they got the flu, even though you are only vaccinated for the type that is more likely to be around that year and there are many variations of flu

[arista]

Originally Posted by Mokka

I held off vaccinating my kids till they were in school. Here in Canada they start when the babies are 3 months old. My issue at that time was they were giving babies a relatively untested HepB vaccination mixed in with everything else... in one shot. I decided it wasn't worth the risk.
When we moved provinces... the health regulations were different and it wasn't all one shot. And my kids were older. It made sense then.

That's the sensible way.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I agree with everything you said TS, I believe it should be parental choice, at the moment if feels like parents are being pressured by government and other parents into putting something into their children's bodies they are not keen on.

Yes, plus that doesn't even work! It just makes people even more determined to stick to their guns. If people just calmly explained the REAL risk balance between vaccinating and not vaccinating, I think more people would actually be swayed.

At the moment it's

"Vaccines are a miracle that will 100% protect your kids forever!"

vs

"If you don't vaccinate your kids they will probably die so you are guilty of child abuse".


... Both a load of balls

[Ammi]

....hmmmm I have never heard anyone advocate vaccines as 100% miracle type thing...the risks have always been informed and it’s always being a weighing up of these things and the possibilities if the vaccine is decided against...really, no medical person would ever say if your child is not vaccinated they WILL die...

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Ammi

....hmmmm I have never heard anyone advocate vaccines as 100% miracle type thing...the risks have always been informed and it’s always being a weighing up of these things and the possibilities if the vaccine is decided against...really, no medical person would ever say if your child is not vaccinated they WILL die...

The UK is still far more reasonable about the issue than the US. A lot of the online rhetoric is US-lead.

[Ammi]

...surely it’s not a thing about reasonable or not reasonable ....but medical facts..which medical sections are saying that children would probably die without a vaccine and indicating child abuse...?...

[Toy Soldier]

And in terms of public scare tactics... literally the first two replies on this post, Ammi...

Originally Posted by Liam-

It should be illegal to not vaccinate your kids imo.

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Anti-Vaxxers should lose their kids for child endangerment of their own children and other children too young to be vaccinated. There's few things I hate more in this world than Anti-Vaxxers, their ignorance is dangerous and they are representative of everything that is wrong with the world.

This sort of talk is not uncommon.