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Old 11-07-2019, 09:21 AM   #1
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Default Panorama: Labour and Anti-Semitism

Anyone catch the Panorama last night? Here's a short 8 minute version showing how much anti-Semitism has rooted itself in the party and how much people's hands were tied by senior members of Corbyns team who were trying to investigate it

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Senior Labour figures have expressed anger and alarm over claims some of Jeremy Corbyn's closest allies tried to interfere in disciplinary processes involving allegations of anti-Semitism.

Deputy leader Tom Watson said there was a "permissive culture" of anti-Semitism in the party and Mr Corbyn was "the only one" to fix it.

But Chief Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis said the leadership was "directly complicit".

Labour has insisted the claims made in Wednesday's Panorama were inaccurate.

They denied any interference and said the former staff who had spoken to the programme were "disaffected".

Shadow chancellor John McDonnell said the "serious charges" were being "hotly contested", and the process of dealing with complaints in the party had been "improved dramatically".

But Mr Watson said he "deplored the statement made" by the party and to dismiss the testimony of the staff - some of whom had signed non-disclosure agreements (NDAs) when they left - was "wrong".

Labour's disputes team is supposed to operate independently from the party's political structures, including the leader's office.

BBC Panorama spoke to former party officials, who alleged they had to deal with a huge increase in anti-Semitism complaints since Mr Corbyn became Labour leader in 2015.

Eight former officials who worked in the team and dealt with anti-Semitism cases claimed to the BBC that:

The leader's office was "angry and obstructive" when it came to the issue

Officials brought in by the party's general secretary, Jennie Formby, "overruled" some of their disciplinary decisions and "downgraded" punishments to a "slap on the wrist"

Seumas Milne, one of Mr Corbyn's closest aides, laughed when advised by a long-serving party official about what Mr Corbyn should do to tackle anti-Semitism in the party

On one occasion, Mr Corbyn's office ordered batches of anti-Semitism complaints to be brought to his Commons office for processing by his aides

Full article: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48946070
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Old 11-07-2019, 09:38 AM   #2
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There’s been quite a few things that have come out to debunk the show, chopped emails to misrepresent, the director is a life long labour hater, most of the incindents recorded, were reported before Corbyn even became leader and were sat on until he took charge, it was a one sided smearfest.
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Old 11-07-2019, 09:40 AM   #3
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And here come the excuses
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Old 11-07-2019, 09:42 AM   #4
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And here come the excuses
*facts

I wonder when the BBC will commission a Panorama on the rife islamophobia in the Tory party?
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Old 11-07-2019, 09:50 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Liam- View Post
*facts

I wonder when the BBC will commission a Panorama on the rife islamophobia in the Tory party?
It will happen at some point I guess,but this is about the labour party
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Old 11-07-2019, 09:51 AM   #6
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I didn't watch it, I will do soon. Tom Watson seems to be doing all he can to bring down the Labour party I know that.
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Old 11-07-2019, 09:56 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Liam- View Post
Theres been quite a few things that have come out to debunk the show, chopped emails to misrepresent, the director is a life long labour hater, most of the incindents recorded, were reported before Corbyn even became leader and were sat on until he took charge, it was a one sided smearfest.
Corbyn heaped praise on the director a few years ago

Sounds more like the smearfest is against those who dared speak out in the program, a lot of which I've noticed has already crept into casual anti-Semitism with the contributors accused of being part of the 'Israeli lobby' and one of the guys shamed for the crime of having been involved with Labour Friends of Israel.

My two questions would be: what is the BBC's interest in producing such a biased and manipulated program? And does that stuff above outweigh all the other compelling evidence and testimonies that the program featured?
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Old 11-07-2019, 09:56 AM   #8
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Panorama generally get their investigations correct, and Tom Watson is trying to save the labour party. I've never agreed with his politics, but his intentions with regard to antisemitism are 100% well intentioned. Pity the same can't be said about Corbyn.
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Old 11-07-2019, 10:00 AM   #9
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Old 11-07-2019, 10:11 AM   #10
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Terrible Docu
full of old footage.

You learn more on LBC Live now
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Old 11-07-2019, 11:23 AM   #11
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It was going over a lot of old ground.
As arista indicated.

I never make excuses for anyone, as a Labour party member and supporter
I am really annoyed at this issue in the Labour party.
One of the people in the documentary I hold high respect for.
I wouldn't doubt his word at all.

However, I don't think this documentary revealed much more than has been said over the last 2 years.

Of course the usual Labour bashers will dive in while ignoring the mess in their own Party's garden.

It is a disgrace that the Labour party even has this issue which is seemingly taking ages to eradicate.
Which it should be.
In fact should have been so now.

There is thankfully, a fully independent investigation going on in the Labour party now and the organisation doing that will I hope leave no stones unturned.
Then present their findings and instructions if needed to clear this awful mess up.

Is the leader to be held responsible.
Is Mrs May responsible for the Islamophobia in her Party, NO.

I have many reservations about Corbyn, I make no secret he was not my choice for leader.
I'd even add I'd rather another leader now too.

Do I really believe he's anti semitic,
No
Do I really believe the Labour party is rife with antisemitism, NO

However anyone holding any genuine antisemitic views should be out the party.
No its or buts.
In my view.

I will wait and take the findings of this independent investigation.
That is now the thing I've hoped for.
Anyone or organisation complained about, in my view should never investigate themselves.
So I am happier and confident that this independent investigation will be the better way.

I think myself an antisemitic problem in Labour will be identified but I'd doubt, the often vast over exaggerations of the haters of the left and Labour will be proven right in their rubbing of hands glee, of their over exaggerations against Labour.
Maybe too, even as to the present leader.

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Old 11-07-2019, 11:33 AM   #12
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There is no amount of evidence that would be enough to convince the Corbyn supporters. They'll all be making excuses and using "yeah, but whataboutthetories…"

The denials about Labour's anti-Semitism, the hatred for Jews within the party, the excusing of anti-Semitic language... it's all horribly familiar. But at least people are becoming more aware of it now.
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Old 11-07-2019, 11:39 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeysteele View Post
It was going over a lot of old ground.
As arista indicated.

I never make excuses for anyone, as a Labour party member and supporter
I am really annoyed at this issue in the Labour party.
One of the people in the documentary I hold high respect for.
I wouldn't doubt his word at all.

However, I don't think this documentary revealed much more than has been said over the last 2 years.

Of course the usual Labour bashers will dive in while ignoring the mess in their own Party's garden.

It is a disgrace that the Labour party even has this issue which is seemingly taking ages to eradicate.
Which it should be.
In fact should have been so now.

There is thankfully, a fully independent investigation going on in the Labour party now and the organisation doing that will I hope leave no stones unturned.
Then present their findings and instructions if needed to clear this awful mess up.

Is the leader to be held responsible.
Is Mrs May responsible for the Islamophobia in her Party, NO.

I have many reservations about Corbyn, I make no secret he was not my choice for leader.
I'd even add I'd rather another leader now too.

Do I really believe he's anti semitic,
No
Do I really believe the Labour party is rife with antisemitism, NO

However anyone holding any genuine antisemitic views should be out the party.
No its or buts.
In my view.

I will wait and take the findings of this independent investigation.
That is now the thing I've hoped for.
Anyone or organisation complained about, in my view should never investigate themselves.
So I am happier and confident that this independent investigation will be the better way.

I think myself an antisemitic problem in Labour will be identified but I'd doubt, the often vast over exaggerations of the haters of the left and Labour will be proven right in their rubbing of hands glee, of their over exaggerations against Labour.
Maybe too, even as to the present leader.


Well that's quite a change of tack there joey. Haters of the left will be rubbing their hands in glee? You think it's all an exaggeration now? All those people in that clip were lying? Yes, let's wait for the independent investigation, and what a shame that was needed.

Lastly, why the reference to the Tories and the alleged Islamophobia? Is it now the thinking that two wrongs make a right?
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Old 11-07-2019, 11:44 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Livia View Post
There is no amount of evidence that would be enough to convince the Corbyn supporters. They'll all be making excuses and using "yeah, but whataboutthetories"

The denials about Labour's anti-Semitism, the hatred for Jews within the party, the excusing of anti-Semitic language... it's all horribly familiar. But at least people are becoming more aware of it now.
All of this pales in comparison to that time a Tory backbencher tweeted something mean about islam
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Old 11-07-2019, 11:44 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Livia View Post
There is no amount of evidence that would be enough to convince the Corbyn supporters. They'll all be making excuses and using "yeah, but whataboutthetories"

The denials about Labour's anti-Semitism, the hatred for Jews within the party, the excusing of anti-Semitic language... it's all horribly familiar. But at least people are becoming more aware of it now.
Sorry but incorrect.
A problem yes, not rife in the party.

I operate in elections and meetings alongside Jewish members of the Party.
Who don't see the party as a whole as you appear to.

Also, I'm no Corbyn apologist, I don't care for him at all.
I'd rather another leader.

Frankly, I have always been an anti Mrs May individual so accept my intense dislike of her would cloud my judgement.

I think the same applies to those who without any real evidence, fire their constant hate of Corbyn too.

Also, please don't try to say.
Had this been a thread on say Islamaphobia in the Conservatives.
That the Labour haters would not be jumping in with applauding of each other, saying what about antisemitism in Labour.

Politics on both sides, left and right have major issues on rights and prejudices.
Politics is, because of weak leadership of all established Parties, in the worst state it's maybe ever been in for centuries.
Soon to get likely even worse too as to division and prejudice.
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Old 11-07-2019, 11:48 AM   #16
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Sorry but incorrect.
A problem yes, not rife in the party.

I operate in elections and meetings alongside Jewish members of the Party.
Who don't see the party as a whole as you appear to.

Also, I'm no Corbyn apologist, I don't care for him at all.
I'd rather another leader.

Frankly, I have always been an anti Mrs May individual so accept my intense dislike of her would cloud my judgement.

I think the same applies to those who without any real evidence, fire their constant hate of Corbyn too.

Also, please don't try to say.
Had this been a thread on say Islamaphobia in the Conservatives.
That the Labour haters would not be jumping in with applauding of each other, saying what about antisemitism in Labour.

Politics on both sides, left and right have major issues on rights and prejudices.
Politics is, because of weak leadership of all established Parties, in the worst state it's maybe ever been in for centuries.
Soon to get likely even worse too as to division and prejudice.
There is no talking to you about this now joey. A couple of weeks ago maybe, not now though.

I'd be interested to hear what all these Jews you work with have to say about it. Not to you.... to me.

Forget Labour haters. Forget Corbyn haters. Anti-Semitism is a problem shaming your party, and the constant denial make you all look like anti-Semites, or at least enablers of anti-Semitics.
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Old 11-07-2019, 11:49 AM   #17
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All of this pales in comparison to that time a Tory backbencher tweeted something mean about islam
Yeah, that'll be it.

Labour supporters have the cheek to complain about people being racist when their own anti-Semitism shames them, and will continue to shame them until someone does something about it.
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Old 11-07-2019, 12:08 PM   #18
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The way the reports of anti-semitism have been handled, could have been much better, but calling the leader and every member of said party antisemetic, without any actual proof of such, is dangerous and smear 101.

Like I’ve said, I look forward to the day that the BBC issue an investigation into the islamaphobia in the Tory party, or the corrupt money of the Brexit party, but I can’t see it happening.
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Old 11-07-2019, 12:11 PM   #19
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Such a shame.
Not about left versus right, its the Labour Party that are bringing it to our attention, and making most of the claims.
Absolute disgrace that needs sorting out, sackings should be in the offing.
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Old 11-07-2019, 12:14 PM   #20
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It's just standard deflection when saying what about this that or the other.

See if I was in a responsible position in an organisation being investigated, I would be concerned to say the least if there was even 1 grain of truth in the documentary ... but no ... discredit the people making the observations is the order of the day.

As a non jewish person, I have no idea what these people are experiencing, but the fact remains, there is much to much evidence associated with Corbyn and the people he surrounds himself with already that they have a big problem.

Behaviour in a political party is enabled by its leadership, that's a fact and I don't have a big enough allegiance with any political party to call out an issue when I see one.
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Old 11-07-2019, 12:15 PM   #21
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There is no talking to you about this now joey. A couple of weeks ago maybe, not now though.

I'd be interested to hear what all these Jews you work with have to say about it. Not to you.... to me.

Forget Labour haters. Forget Corbyn haters. Anti-Semitism is a problem shaming your party, and the constant denial make you all look like anti-Semites, or at least enablers of anti-Semitics.

Actually wrong again.

I have always expressed disgust at any proven antisemitism in the Labour party.
It isn't just in the Labour party however.

As to my Labour Jewish associates, they aren't members of tibb so hardly can say it to you.

However it's a fact, there are Jewish members of the Party who don't in any shape or form,think as you do on the Labour Party and most on the left.

As for not believing those accounts in this documentary.
You again do me a disservice yet again.

I state clearly in my post there was someone there I would not doubt the word of.
I have spoken to him and know his word would be valid all ways.

So keep being selective.
Yes. It is shameful Labour is in this antisemitic mess.
However, let's see what the fully independent organisation's investigation brings up.

I have s feeling those with over exaggerations of how rife it is in the Party, may be disappointed somewhat when it's concluded.

Antisemitism should not be in any Party.
I don't think anyone even denies Labour has a problem with it either.

This too also actually is s gross insult to Labour members and supporters.
When you state publicly, anyone questioning how big the problem is, or if it exists, makes us all look like antisemites.

That may be your view of the Labour Party and its members but it's way off the mark and insulting too.
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Old 11-07-2019, 01:53 PM   #22
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There is no talking to you about this now joey. A couple of weeks ago maybe, not now though.

I'd be interested to hear what all these Jews you work with have to say about it. Not to you.... to me.

Forget Labour haters. Forget Corbyn haters. Anti-Semitism is a problem shaming your party, and the constant denial make you all look like anti-Semites, or at least enablers of anti-Semitics.
Guilty until proven innocent, that's not how is goes is it?
There is support for Labour and Corbyn among prominent Jewish figures and a specific group within the party itself. Are they too Anti-Semites?
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Old 11-07-2019, 02:15 PM   #23
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Excise the rot from the party and rebuild it.
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Old 12-07-2019, 10:28 AM   #24
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Corbyn heaped praise on the director a few years ago

Sounds more like the smearfest is against those who dared speak out in the program, a lot of which I've noticed has already crept into casual anti-Semitism with the contributors accused of being part of the 'Israeli lobby' and one of the guys shamed for the crime of having been involved with Labour Friends of Israel.

My two questions would be: what is the BBC's interest in producing such a biased and manipulated program? And does that stuff above outweigh all the other compelling evidence and testimonies that the program featured?
Yup, thats usually the way it goes. I don't really get why Panorama would suddenly go from investagtive work, to purposely smearing Labour fo the sake of it tbh.
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Old 12-07-2019, 10:38 AM   #25
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The way the reports of anti-semitism have been handled, could have been much better, but calling the leader and every member of said party antisemetic, without any actual proof of such, is dangerous and smear 101.
I don't think anyone thinks every member is anti-Semitic. This reply is a bit...'not all men' when people talk about the men who do rape and behave atrociously towards women. Wails of 'not all X are like that!' are both pointless and annoying. Pointless as, when discussing the bad people, the bad people are being discussed. The subject does not need to change into 'most X are nice'..annoying because its constant.

Its a fairly widespread problem within the party it seems. But, when people talk about it that does not mean they think all labour members are bigoted, that would be insane!

Also I do think, people expect a bit much of Labour sometimes. Like, I don't really get what can be done about random members being antisemitic, besides chucking them out when their views are noted. They cannot control the behaviour of members beyond that. But I do think Corbyn could do much much more.
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Like I’ve said, I look forward to the day that the BBC issue an investigation into the islamaphobia in the Tory party, or the corrupt money of the Brexit party, but I can’t see it happening.
Whataboutery tbh. I usually agree with your posts, or at least I find them to be fair on the whole. Here though..I despite whataboutery tbh, and don't really see the point in it when dicussing a program that delves into a known problem in the Labour party. Of course other parties have their own issues..but if there WAS a thread about a program into Islamophobia in the Tory party, the 'what about Labour having a problem with antisemitism' would be derided, as whataboutery tbh.
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