[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

If you're genuinely trying to convince me that people are going to fancy dress blacked up as Bob Marley as an act of admiration and respect, and not for a cheap laugh, again I'm going to have to call bull**** Parm. You know fine well people would only be doing it for "shock value" and that people don't black up for any other reason. It just doesn't happen. We're prancing around in fantasy land again.

I disagree...I think the percentages of 80s fancy dress parties that have had a bob marley fan admiring his hero will be very very high.....you can't call popping some mascara on your face to complete the look racist or even blackface iny head...not when you love his music and what he was all about...

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by DouglasS

It’s always fascinated me because I think the majority of people that do ‘blackface’ don’t know any better or are just ignorant. I don’t for one second believe most are racist at all, maybe uneducated on the matter or not knowing people can take offence.

I’ve always wondered why it is as offensive as it is perceived to be, i understand the associations and Past, but it’s like men dressing as women/drag, you can argue that women had it rough and were used/raped/had little rights pre history and yet this is fine? It’s an interesting thought

Also painting parts of your face black isn’t always ‘blackface’, I’ve gone as the angel of death a few times for Halloween that involved putting black paint over a good portion of my face. The angel of death isn’t a race, it’s a mythological creature that I was dressing up as. If people saw me and took a photo would I be regarded racist by some when clearly I’m not/I’m just in fancy dress, with nothing to do with race

Some good points raised..I don't know where to start.

[Northern Monkey]

You know,There is a traditional English morris dancing group who’ve been painting their faces black for years.It’s apparently from the 16th century and nothing to do with race.
I’ve seen them a few times in the 80’s/90’s and there was no problem.Everyone enjoyed it.
Only the other year though they apparently suffered abuse and had to flee from crowds who didn’t understand the tradition.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

You know,There is a traditional English morris dancing group who’ve been painting their faces black for years.It’s apparently from the 16th century and nothing to do with race.
I’ve seen them a few times in the 80’s/90’s and there was no problem.Everyone enjoyed it.
Only the other year though they apparently suffered abuse and had to flee from crowds who didn’t understand the tradition.

Thus, someone blacking up as Bob Marley so that their friends can have a chuckle on Facebook because they're the biggest fan EFFER!! is also acceptable.

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Thus, someone blacking up as Bob Marley so that their friends can have a chuckle on Facebook because they're the biggest fan EFFER!! is also acceptable.

What's facook got to do with things. .

[Livia]

Originally Posted by WickedSkengMan

White people were not kidnapped from their own countries and force to live as a slave who was worth nothing in a foreign land.

That is why its unacceptable to act be black for fancy dress

What makes you think that? The slave trade is alive and well my friend...

[Livia]

Every time this subject comes up I say the same thing, so I apologise if you've heard it before. Black people have been oppressed for centuries. So have Jewish people. Here is a picture of black Eddie Murphy whited up as a Jew. Note the big stereotypical Jewish nose...

Was I offended? Was anyone offended? Because I've never heard anyone say this is wrong. Only that it's wrong for white people to black up.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by parmnion

I disagree...I think the percentages of 80s fancy dress parties that have had a bob marley fan admiring his hero will be very very high.....you can't call popping some mascara on your face to complete the look racist or even blackface iny head...not when you love his music and what he was all about...

You're a racist, Parm, face it. So am I... and so is everyone who doesn't think exactly what others think. Like everything racist, it's all about intent.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Thus, someone blacking up as Bob Marley so that their friends can have a chuckle on Facebook because they're the biggest fan EFFER!! is also acceptable.

No but it does show that context and nuance should be applied.
Just a blanket ‘Thou shalt never apply boot polish to ones face under any circumstance’ (as some people think) isn’t always appropriate(as with the morris dancers).
People’s intentions aren’t always clear.

[Tom4784]

False equivalency and unrealistic hypotheticals in an attempt to justify blackface? The state of Tibb gets grimmer by the day.

You can dress up as a black musician without blacking up your skin, there is no reason for blackface to exist in modern day considering the history of it. If you don't understand why it's so wrong then look it up.

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Several countries in northern Africa kidnapped and used white slaves, so is it unacceptable for black people from those countries to white up?

Whataboutism for SLAVERY?! jfc......

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Livia

Every time this subject comes up I say the same thing, so I apologise if you've heard it before. Black people have been oppressed for centuries. So have Jewish people. Here is a picture of black Eddie Murphy whited up as a Jew. Note the big stereotypical Jewish nose...

Was I offended? Was anyone offended? Because I've never heard anyone say this is wrong. Only that it's wrong for white people to black up.

Look up the history of Blackface, Livia, and you'll see why people get upset about it in particular.

As for your whataboutism, there's been cases of black people whiting up and it causing controversies, it's not a one way street but blackface in particular has a sordid history which is why it's judged harshly.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Whataboutism for SLAVERY?! jfc......

No? Someone said that white people have never been slaves, which is nonsense.

As white people have been slaves, that puts us on even footing, so whiting up and blacking up are the same.

[Vicky.]

I think its pretty wellknown that blackface is offensive to many. And therefor really the only reason I see for doing it is to shock or whatever. 'Whiteface' is not really a thing tbh..and no I don't think its the same if it was a thing given..well history.

Interesting point about drag though, thats came up before in similar discussions. Yes, some drag queens just do it for fun or because they want to, but the huge majority I have seen seem to do it to basically mock women. Especially the ones clubs hire. Those ones are just pure misogynists IMO.

[Livia]

So I'm taking it that "Jewing up" is perfectly fine.... Good to know.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Livia

What makes you think that? The slave trade is alive and well my friend...

The slave trade (especially sex slavery) is very much alive and well, that much is sadly very true, however I think the fact that black people were enslaved specifically by white Europeans is what makes it especially inappropriate for white people to "black up", in comparison to vice-versa, or other costumes.

Honestly, the rule of thumb should be, if the majority of a group of people find something offensive (and I think this DOES apply to blackface) then other people should respect that and stop doing it. It should really be as simple as that. No matter what group that is.

[Shaun]

jesus christ this forum is pathetic

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Livia

So I'm taking it that "Jewing up" is perfectly fine.... Good to know.

Again I'd refer to the above; if the majority of Jewish people are genuinely offended by the costume then no it's not fine and it's not something people should continue doing it. . But does Murphy's "Jew Costume" actually offend you or is it just being used an example of "other people doing it too".

[Jordan.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

If black humans are going to a party that involves fancy dress, say an 80s party or something...do they white up like white humans black thier faces up for bob marley or stevie wonder?

The fact you needed to ask answered your own question. Did you just need to get some ignorant blackface opinions out of your system?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The slave trade (especially sex slavery) is very much alive and well, that much is sadly very true, however I think the fact that black people were enslaved specifically by white Europeans is what makes it especially inappropriate for white people to "black up", in comparison to vice-versa, or other costumes.

Honestly, the rule of thumb should be, if the majority of a group of people find something offensive (and I think this DOES apply to blackface) then other people should respect that and stop doing it. It should really be as simple as that. No matter what group that is.

Frankly I've only ever heard white people complain about it.

The slave trade is rife and it's happening all over the world. How many times have you heard about slaves in this country, kept to work in dreadful conditions, no access to medicine... and that's in one of the most developed countries in the world. Trouble is that we don't hear that much about modern slavery. I don't know why anyone should suppose slavery is any better for the slave now.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

No? Someone said that white people have never been slaves, which is nonsense.

As white people have been slaves, that puts us on even footing, so whiting up and blacking up are the same.

Yes those 'white trash' girls are slaves to the perverted grooming gangs and that is not history ,it's happening now, Lets not forget those white girls.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Livia

Frankly I've only ever heard white people complain about it.

The slave trade is rife and it's happening all over the world. How many times have you heard about slaves in this country, kept to work in dreadful conditions, no access to medicine... and that's in one of the most developed countries in the world. Trouble is that we don't hear that much about modern slavery. I don't know why anyone should suppose slavery is any better for the slave now.

I guess I wont be able to come as a chimney sweep to your party now Livia

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Again I'd refer to the above; if the majority of Jewish people are genuinely offended by the costume then no it's not fine and it's not something people should continue doing it. . But does Murphy's "Jew Costume" actually offend you or is it just being used an example of "other people doing it too".

I'm sure you have no idea whether Jews were offended... it wouldn't have occurred to you. But you LEAP on the blackface thing. So I should just stick with that if I were you.

[GiRTh]

I've been saying for years that people on this forum dont really understand these issues and along comes a thread like this to prove me right.

[Matthew.]

Originally Posted by Shaun

jesus christ this forum is pathetic

+1

Only on this forum eh

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Jordan.

The fact you needed to ask answered your own question. Did you just need to get some ignorant blackface opinions out of your system?

Well rather than take tibb at its word or opinion I've asked my black friend bobby all about it.


He says definatly racist and he would kick me out his party if I came with make up on ...he still likes me though