[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

It seems to be

But "seems to be" doesn't cut it in court, Niamh.

No one on this thread is right or wrong, none of us know exactly what happened, we're all guessing. And frankly, I'm tired of being insulted by TS with the "feminist" thing (feminist is dirty word on here)... so once again, I'm going to leave him to it.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Livia

And that's what happened in this case?

As with the vast majority of sexual assault cases there sadly isn't enough evidence to make any sort of concrete claim on what actually happened and while that may well mean that it's right for the accused to be released without charge, it certainly isn't evidence that the accuser "should be punished for lying". Or as Oliver more boldly suggested - that she should serve 12 consecutive rape sentences.

[Niamh.]

Yeah I do agree with TSs points on this one Livia and my opinion on it is what I posted a few posts back on consent and especially consent to do with drunk girls and multiple men. What may or may not stand up in court is not what I was arguing, just my personal opinion from a moral stand point I suppose

[Amy Jade]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Everyone knows what Ayia Napa is like. Its the place where young people go to get legless drunk and have sex. So it's a seedy place basically. I wouldnt trust any of the accounts because the likelihood was they were completely out the game

Posts like this ****ing frighten me!

I have been on a few girls holidays with my friends (between 5 and 19 of us at various times/destinations) and I can assure anyone reading this that I never once went expecting to have sex and actually never did on a girls holiday, just not how I am although I don't judge anyone who does.

However the accusation that a young girl only goes to say Maga to have sex with strangers and would be best off not being believed is chilling.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Livia

But "seems to be" doesn't cut it in court, Niamh.

No one on this thread is right or wrong, none of us know exactly what happened, we're all guessing. And frankly, I'm tired of being insulted by TS with the "feminist" thing (feminist is dirty word on here)... so once again, I'm going to leave him to it.

Am I insulting you by calling you a feminist or by saying that you're not being feminist? I can't quite figure that out. Because whilst I'm certainly not any sort of radical, when it comes right down to it I honestly think on balance it's fairly clear that I do believe in MANY of the central principles of feminism? Being totally honest I can even fully appreciate where the self-ID concerns come from and the need for authorities to be considering with a level head rather than going off full steam ahead without any evidence base, and I got a bit too caught up in the point-scoring argument in that thread. If you'd asked me 3 years ago I'd have said that feminism is not the ongoing answer and equality rights need to move on to the next phase. Events of the last few years have shown that to be naive and that many, many aspects of feminism are still vital. I've taken a feminist stance on contless topics quite consistently on here but was instantly labelled anti-feminist and a misogynist because of a lapse on one issue that gets quickly layered and complicated, and I found that unfair, and yes it stung, so it has been spilling back out since.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I mean, from what I've read about it, the suggestion has been that she did it as "revenge" for a group of them (possibly not all 12) having sex with her consensually, but several of them filming it on their phones without consent and then refusing to delete it.

So whilst accusing them of rape is obviously a MASSIVELY over the top and immature reaction ... I would say that Nicky's assessment of "vile boys" is still quite accurate. No?

And TBQFH I'm very skeptical about how "consensual" a gangbang between one probably drunk 19 year old girl and multiple boys being filmed on smartphones is likely to have been, and strongly suspect she may have withdrawn her statement due to being grilled about it in an unpleasant manner and just wanting to get the hell out of there. If her statement was obviously a bit mis-remembered and confused (as it obviously would be) and then one of the boys proved he wasn't there, because perhaps that one did leave the group earlier without her realising, it makes her entire statement fall apart, the police start aggressively quizzing her for "lying", and she just wants to go home.

Spot on.

Honestly, I reckon she probably consented to a couple, then they all just went to town. Now some would say consenting to a gangbang means it IS a free for all, but IMO no, consent is still needed for each bloke tbh. Told the story, police were all like 'well consent to one dick means consent to all' or something, so it was withdrawn. Something along those lines tbh.

Plus filming her without consent, is very dodgy ground too.

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

This also serves as a prime example of why that "punish the accuser when there's proof" thread is utterly wrong headed because I'm getting the impression that plenty of people on this thread believe that there is "proof" that this girl wasn't assaulted in any way and would gleefully see her charged with a crime, when there clearly just ****ing isn't proof of that at all.

Yes, its a bit concerning how..if a allegation is withdrawn for any reason..its always 'see, proof she LIED, hang her!' type posts., And from people who minutes before were saying IF there was proof the guys should go to jail or whatever. The proof does not seem to need to be there for attacking the alleged victim though? Very odd.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Amy Jade

Posts like this ****ing frighten me!

I have been on a few girls holidays with my friends (between 5 and 19 of us at various times/destinations) and I can assure anyone reading this that I never once went expecting to have sex and actually never did on a girls holiday, just not how I am although I don't judge anyone who does.

However the accusation that a young girl only goes to say Maga to have sex with strangers and would be best off not being believed is chilling.

It is chilling. I'd honestly be interested to know that statistics comparing sexual assault allegations on young holiday destinations vs charges pursued, because I'd bet that it's a horrifyingly low percentage even compared to the already-very-low rate generally. I do think people probably find it VERY hard to have their story heard and believed, and that the reasoning will often be "Well that's what you went there for wasn't it?".

[Nicky91]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Spot on.


Yes, its a bit concerning how..if a allegation is withdrawn for any reason..its always 'see, proof she LIED, hang her!' type posts., And from people who minutes before were saying IF there was proof the guys should go to jail or whatever. The proof does not seem to need to be there for attacking the alleged victim though? Very odd.

also the attorney who represents these boys had said they are gonna press charges on the girl even further

like do YOU have strong evidence to support your charges of her false rape claims

if there isn't evidence then these guys are in trouble, since then they make false charges of their own, or evidence that one of the guys filmed it without her consent the guys are also in trouble

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It is chilling. I'd honestly be interested to know that statistics comparing sexual assault allegations on young holiday destinations vs charges pursued, because I'd bet that it's a horrifyingly low percentage even compared to the already-very-low rate generally. I do think people probably find it VERY hard to have their story heard and believed, and that the reasoning will often be "Well that's what you went there for wasn't it?".

I reckon most girls would want to go home and try to forget it ever happened rather than face a trial/police grilling with all those insinuations made/their sex life up for public scrutiny etc I wonder would this girl have done that too had it not been for the recording that was made. (which should be a crime on it's own whether the sex was viewed as consentual or not)

[Denver]

So they have video evidence of sexual activity happening but also evidence that the boys in the video were not actually there so how does that work? also in The UK sharing sexual contents without permission is legal so im guessing Cyprus doesnt have those laws?

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by Amy Jade

Posts like this ****ing frighten me!

I have been on a few girls holidays with my friends (between 5 and 19 of us at various times/destinations) and I can assure anyone reading this that I never once went expecting to have sex and actually never did on a girls holiday, just not how I am although I don't judge anyone who does.

However the accusation that a young girl only goes to say Maga to have sex with strangers and would be best off not being believed is chilling.

i lived in Cyprus for several years, I know Ayia Napa very well, what I said was true about it. It's a place where young people go to get very drunk and have sex. Some may not know about it, that is unfortunate, but many do.

[Daniel-X]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

i lived in Cyprus for several years, I know Ayia Napa very well, what I said was true about it. It's a place where young people go to get very drunk and have sex. Some may not know about it, that is unfortunate, but many do.

I got back from Ayia Napa last week and was staying near Pambos Napa Rocks were this encounter took place. I can assure you that it is not always the case that people just go to have sex, just as me and the majority of my friends didn’t. Your view on the subject is quite out of touch with modern society.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Daniel-X

I got back from Ayia Napa last week and was staying near Pambos Napa Rocks were this encounter took place. I can assure you that it is not always the case that people just go to have sex, just as me and the majority of my friends didn’t. Your view on the subject is quite out of touch with modern society.

so your opinion is based on like 4 people?

BOTS was not saying every single person goes there with that in mind but its a common theme - get wasted and lose your inhibitions and do something that you will regret at your leisure

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

i lived in Cyprus for several years, I know Ayia Napa very well, what I said was true about it. It's a place where young people go to get very drunk and have sex. Some may not know about it, that is unfortunate, but many do.

Just because many of the young people who go there are looking to get drunk and have sex, doesn't mean that EVERY young person does, nor that even if a young person DID go there to get drunk and have sex, she should expect not to be believed if she's sexually assaulted or raped. I'm sorry BOTS I know you've already said it's "words in mouth" but this is still sounding a lot like victim blaming? It doesn't matter "what sort of place it is" or "why some people go there", any more than it matters what someone is wearing or if they're "being clearly flirty".

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

BOTS was not saying every single person goes there with that in mind but its a common theme - get wasted and lose your inhibitions and do something that you will regret at your leisure

Something that you will regret like gang banging a drunk girl with dubious levels of consent and filming it on your smartphone. The perils of youth, eh.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Something that you will regret like gang banging a drunk girl with dubious levels of consent and filming it on your smartphone. The perils of youth, eh.

i expect, if that is true, the lad was every bit as drunk as she was?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

i lived in Cyprus for several years, I know Ayia Napa very well, what I said was true about it. It's a place where young people go to get very drunk and have sex. Some may not know about it, that is unfortunate, but many do.

So is blackpool ... doesn't mean that a case originating there should be given any less gravitas.

[LeatherTrumpet]

"Cyprus will take legal action against anyone who helped promote the lie, Ayia Napa Mayor Yiannis Karousos told Israel’s Channel 13 news, “including the girl who gave the alleged statement to police.”


The last thing the ISland wants is a rape case so they will throw the book at her as she could have damaged tourism

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

i expect, if that is true, the lad was every bit as drunk as she was?

That creates a reasonable grey area in an apparently-at-the-time one on one sexual encounter between a very drunk girl and a very drunk guy.

Trying to make it stretch to a group of pals tag-teaming one girl and filming it is a stretch. Actually it's not just "a stretch", it's bloody grim.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

The last thing the ISland wants is a rape case so they will throw the book at her as she could have damaged tourism

This will be amazing for them, as I can only assume their rate of reported rapes and sexual assaults will drop to near enough zero. Grim.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

That creates a reasonable grey area in an apparently-at-the-time one on one sexual encounter between a very drunk girl and a very drunk guy.

Trying to make it stretch to a group of pals tag-teaming one girl and filming it is a stretch. Actually it's not just "a stretch", it's bloody grim.

Yep. Excuse making for that sort of behaviour is also grim

[Denver]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

i expect, if that is true, the lad was every bit as drunk as she was?

So you are saying its on to rape someone if drunk? Because you dont know what you are doing?

[Tom4784]

It makes me uneasy that charges were brought against her and I'll probably feel the same way until they reveal what they actually have on her.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

so your opinion is based on like 4 people?

BOTS was not saying every single person goes there with that in mind but its a common theme - get wasted and lose your inhibitions and do something that you will regret at your leisure

Like rape someone? :/

[Vicky.]

People can go there specifically to get drunk and shag about if they want, still doesnt mean they cannot be raped tbh. This convo, as per usual on rape threads, is making me feel a bit uncomfortable in all honesty