[joeysteele]

If this is really a planned policy.

On balance I'd be against it.

I haven't any children so I'd bow more to the views of parents on this issue.
However education is vital and compulsory.
So in my view a child's education should be the dominating factor.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

I think you're making it into a big big brother like scenario.

It is just vaccines

Not buying this thin end of the wedge stuff

It's just vaccines today, and just the main ones today, until they start adding more vaccines that are mandatory, and then slide sideways into other medical procedures. This isn't tinfoil hat stuff; if we give governments the right to make medical decisions for us, they absolutely will grab it with both hands, and thinking that long term it'll remain "just vaccines" is, to be blunt, recklessly naive.

This is what I mean about cognitive dissonance - multiple people on this thread who I am 90+% sure would agree on principle if it was any other topic... ... ... ... "But vaccines eek!".

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I hope it goes through, pro-disease people and their offspring should not be allowed around places in which their lack of immunity is a danger to others.

The whole movement is based on nothing but stupidity and narcissism.

Nonsense "Reddit-rhetoric" like this is only going to compound that subset of people's beliefs and make them close ranks and gain following, ultimately reducing overall vaccination rates. You don't convince people with threats and insults.

If your actual goal is increasing vaccination rates - and not just venting frustration - then you're being part of the problem, not the solution.

Accurate, honest, respectful education will increase vaccination rates. Force and mocking will not. People have been trying this "angry dad" / "shame the parents" routine with it for years if not decades. Rates are still falling. It doesn't work. Grow up.

[Ammi]

...it would be impossible to implement as a ban because it’s compulsory by law for a child to attend school...(..I would also doubt that teachers or unions would be on board with that at all..)...but I guess what it’s doing in screaming this ...is paving the way to scream...’we will fine...’...another day, another tax...etc..

[arista]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...it would be impossible to implement as a ban because it’s compulsory by law for a child to attend school...(..I would also doubt that teachers or unions would be on board with that at all..)...but I guess what it’s doing in screaming this ...is paving the way to scream...’we will fine...’...another day, another tax...etc..

Already a Nursery went on National TV
saying everyone has to prove their kid has been vaccinated

[Kizzy]

Mine were vaccinated however I've never understood why they lump them together, fighting off a virus is hard for a little body..but 3 together?

When mine were at school there were worries about MMR causing autism, that has been discredited however makes you wonder how or why it was linked initially :/

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Nonsense "Reddit-rhetoric" like this is only going to compound that subset of people's beliefs and make them close ranks and gain following, ultimately reducing overall vaccination rates. You don't convince people with threats and insults.

If your actual goal is increasing vaccination rates - and not just venting frustration - then you're being part of the problem, not the solution.

Accurate, honest, respectful education will increase vaccination rates. Force and mocking will not. People have been trying this "angry dad" / "shame the parents" routine with it for years if not decades. Rates are still falling. It doesn't work. Grow up.

I have sympathy with the body autonomy argument, but this point, whilst it makes sense to you or I, doesn't translate in the real world. We have an increasing number of people who trust their gut or a celebrity saying their child looked at a dr for 1 minute and now has autism.

I don't really look at it as either a threat or an insult, but merely a requirement to enter public education. We've seen diseases on the verge of being wiped off the planet, suddenly enjoying a resurgence because of parents that won't vaccinate.

It's also not a specific section of the population; we have religious parents refusing it for religious reasons, we have crystal waving hippie lefties that aren't vaccinating, and we have Jenny McCarthy believing parents. It's too widespread, and it unnecessarily endangers the lives of children that can't vaccinate.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

I have sympathy with the body autonomy argument, but this point, whilst it makes sense to you or I, doesn't translate in the real world. We have an increasing number of people who trust their gut or a celebrity saying their child looked at a dr for 1 minute and now has autism.

I don't really look at it as either a threat or an insult, but merely a requirement to enter public education. We've seen diseases on the verge of being wiped off the planet, suddenly enjoying a resurgence because of parents that won't vaccinate.

It's also not a specific section of the population; we have religious parents refusing it for religious reasons, we have crystal waving hippie lefties that aren't vaccinating, and we have Jenny McCarthy believing parents. It's too widespread, and it unnecessarily endangers the lives of children that can't vaccinate.

Right but attempting to increase vaccination rates through shaming (calling people stupid / trying to tell them that their kids will die) or force (the threat of banning children from public spaces) simply won't work on any of those groups. It'll compound the problem by pushing those already inclined to retreat into sub-communities completely removed from the entire conversation and in 2 or 3 generations you'll have even lower vax rates. Honestly I understand the temptation to try to use force, I just know it won't work, and while you can ban unvaccinated kids from schools, you can't ban them from parks, or soft play areas, or any other public space, so it doesn't really matter.

[Toy Soldier]

There's a YouTube video around somewhere of 3 anti-vaxxers talking to three experts... two of the experts go down the usual internet-age hysteria route, screeching at them like they're feeding their kids plague rats for dinner. The conversation goes absolutely nowhere.

ONE doctor conceeds that vaccines carry small risks, as any medical procedure does, and takes the time to explain the statistics and that the possible vaccine side effects are largely identical to the possible complications of the illnesses - and much rarer - and they actually engage in conversation with him.

It's EXTREMELY illustrative of the situation in my opinion. I haven't been able to find the damn thing though.

[Toy Soldier]

If anyone's interested, here's a very simple pro-vax argument that relies on the real figures and not the lies.

The main fear that anti-vax people have, is brain injury caused by encephalitis. Encephalitis IS a possible vaccine side effect, at a rate of roughly 1 in 130000.

Encephalitis is also a possible side effect of measles, at a rate of around 1 in 600.

In other words, a child is 200x more likely to get "the scariest side effect" from measles than they are from the MMR.

People don't bother to explain that though, they're happier just saying "reeeeeee if your child gets measles their head will fall off, so you must hate them and be pro-death, get out of our schools reee"

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Right but attempting to increase vaccination rates through shaming (calling people stupid / trying to tell them that their kids will die) or force (the threat of banning children from public spaces) simply won't work on any of those groups. It'll compound the problem by pushing those already inclined to retreat into sub-communities completely removed from the entire conversation and in 2 or 3 generations you'll have even lower vax rates. Honestly I understand the temptation to try to use force, I just know it won't work, and while you can ban unvaccinated kids from schools, you can't ban them from parks, or soft play areas, or any other public space, so it doesn't really matter.

I'm not calling anyone stupid or threatening them, I just advocate having vaccination as an entry requirement if you want your child to attend school. We can't eradicate all risk from every life and never will, but I disagree with because we can't ban them from everywhere then it's pointless trying to protect them when we can.

Anti-vax movements are increasing in popularity already, and the problem with conspiracy theorists, is evidence and facts are used to prove to them that it's just more of a conspiracy, rather than an attempt to help them help their children.

Maybe requiring those children to be vaccinated will help them see in a generation or two, that actually they're not giving our children autism afterall, whereas allowing this issue to go on unaddressed is currently having the opposite effect.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

I'm not calling anyone stupid or threatening them, I just advocate having vaccination as an entry requirement if you want your child to attend school.

I know you haven't, I was mainly referring to comments like this

Originally Posted by Dezzy

pro-disease people and their offspring should not be allowed around places in which their lack of immunity is a danger to others.

The whole movement is based on nothing but stupidity and narcissism.

With super-edgy reddit buzz terms like "pro-disease" (often "pro-death") that are sadly not uncommon in this "debate", and entirely unhelpful if not counterproductive.

We can't eradicate all risk from every life and never will, but I disagree with because we can't ban them from everywhere then it's pointless trying to protect them when we can.

Anti-vax movements are increasing in popularity already, and the problem with conspiracy theorists, is evidence and facts are used to prove to them that it's just more of a conspiracy, rather than an attempt to help them help their children.

Maybe requiring those children to be vaccinated will help them see in a generation or two, that actually they're not giving our children autism afterall, whereas allowing this issue to go on unaddressed is currently having the opposite effect.

The problem with not using the facts though is that THAT feeds the idea that it's all conspiracy. Encephalitis occurs as a vaccine side effect. Brain injury occurs in many (not most, but many) cases of encaphalitis. Permanent brain injury *can and does happen as a result of vaccination* and that can be confirmed with very little searching. So if you have a tonne of people shouting that something doesn't happen, when it is a medical fact that it DOES happen, the argument breaks down completely.

For it to be a valid debate and get anywhere the starting point has to be getting those who know that there are risks, to understand that not vaccinating carries far higher risks.

I just can't comprehend why anyone thinks this is going to be addressed with lies and force, or why anyone would want it to be, given the potential for precedent.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I know you haven't, I was mainly referring to comments like this



With super-edgy reddit buzz terms like "pro-disease" (often "pro-death") that are sadly not uncommon in this "debate", and entirely unhelpful if not counterproductive.



The problem with not using the facts though is that THAT feeds the idea that it's all conspiracy. Encephalitis occurs as a vaccine side effect. Brain injury occurs in many (not most, but many) cases of encaphalitis. Permanent brain injury *can and does happen as a result of vaccination* and that can be confirmed with very little searching. So if you have a tonne of people shouting that something doesn't happen, when it is a medical fact that it DOES happen, the argument breaks down completely.

For it to be a valid debate and get anywhere the starting point has to be getting those who know that there are risks, to understand that not vaccinating carries far higher risks.

I just can't comprehend why anyone thinks this is going to be addressed with lies and force, or why anyone would want it to be, given the potential for precedent.

That encephalitis point is a really good point that I was unaware of, but is that the main driver of the anti-vax movement (genuine question, as I don't know)? Because the main stuff I've heard about are the actual conspiracy theories. Maybe that's a case of the craziest voices making the most noise?

Is there real world data out there for those that don't want to vaccinate their children for genuine medical reasons vs those that believe the gubmint just want to inject satan's urine into your arm, then that would probably help us identify the most successful approach.

There are probably a lot of people that float across the middle of those 2 positions, that have heard bad things about it, but don't really bother with the details, so I think the regulatory vaccinations in conjunction with education as opposed to either or, would probably be the most effective strategy.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's just vaccines today, and just the main ones today, until they start adding more vaccines that are mandatory, and then slide sideways into other medical procedures. This isn't tinfoil hat stuff; if we give governments the right to make medical decisions for us, they absolutely will grab it with both hands, and thinking that long term it'll remain "just vaccines" is, to be blunt, recklessly naive.

This is what I mean about cognitive dissonance - multiple people on this thread who I am 90+% sure would agree on principle if it was any other topic... ... ... ... "But vaccines eek!".

I do sympathise with your argument TS.
But we've given up our privacy to CCTV. Vaccines is another example where personally I'd expect that common good should trump individual freedom. Sorry, it is my gut reaction even though I understand your concerns

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Nonsense "Reddit-rhetoric" like this is only going to compound that subset of people's beliefs and make them close ranks and gain following, ultimately reducing overall vaccination rates. You don't convince people with threats and insults.

If your actual goal is increasing vaccination rates - and not just venting frustration - then you're being part of the problem, not the solution.

Accurate, honest, respectful education will increase vaccination rates. Force and mocking will not. People have been trying this "angry dad" / "shame the parents" routine with it for years if not decades. Rates are still falling. It doesn't work. Grow up.

More fool you for trying to reason with stupidity, anti-vaxxers are narcissists that think they can overpower science with essential oils and healing crystals. They do not listen to reason or common sense because they possess neither and their actions are bringing back diseases and illnesses we had all but gotten rid of. Talking to them is like trying to convince a gun nut to see the issue with AR-15s being sold in US supermarkets, they will never listen and I won't waste my time on morons telling them any different. Their actions endanger vulnerable people and all you are doing is empowering them by offering their insane viewpoints an out.

Do not patronise me and tell me to grow up when you're going to be pulling splinters out of your arse for sitting on the fence for a pretty black or white issue. Science vs Stupidity, that is what this boils down to and your tin foil what ifs do nothing but create more reasons for those idiots to stick their heads in the sand.

[Jessica.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

More fool you for trying to reason with stupidity, anti-vaxxers are narcissists that think they can overpower science with essential oils and healing crystals. They do not listen to reason or common sense because they possess neither and their actions are bringing back diseases and illnesses we had all but gotten rid of. Talking to them is like trying to convince a gun nut to see the issue with AR-15s being sold in US supermarkets, they will never listen and I won't waste my time on morons telling them any different. Their actions endanger vulnerable people and all you are doing is empowering them by offering their insane viewpoints an out.

Do not patronise me and tell me to grow up when you're going to be pulling splinters out of your arse for sitting on the fence for a pretty black or white issue. Science vs Stupidity, that is what this boils down to and your tin foil what ifs do nothing but create more reasons for those idiots to stick their heads in the sand.

I completely agree, anti-vaccers thing they know more than people who are constantly saving lives. Vaccination should not be a choice, it should be mandatory.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

More fool you for trying to reason with stupidity, anti-vaxxers are narcissists that think they can overpower science with essential oils and healing crystals. They do not listen to reason or common sense because they possess neither and their actions are bringing back diseases and illnesses we had all but gotten rid of. Talking to them is like trying to convince a gun nut to see the issue with AR-15s being sold in US supermarkets, they will never listen and I won't waste my time on morons telling them any different. Their actions endanger vulnerable people and all you are doing is empowering them by offering their insane viewpoints an out.

Do not patronise me and tell me to grow up when you're going to be pulling splinters out of your arse for sitting on the fence for a pretty black or white issue. Science vs Stupidity, that is what this boils down to and your tin foil what ifs do nothing but create more reasons for those idiots to stick their heads in the sand.

It's not a black and white issue when what you're touting as "white" is the frankly utterly insane notion of allowing government-enforced medical procedures. I can only imagine the backflips you must be doing in your mind to advocate for this, based on being frustrated by anti-vaxxers. "Some people make dumb decisions so ... time to cancel the right to bodily autonomy I guess!"

You're also drawing completely false comparisons with things like gun laws. The idea that you can convince anti-vaxxers to vaccinate by screeching at them that being anti-vax is being "pro death" is more akin to the idea that you could convince someone to give up their handgun by repeatedly bellowing that it's secretly a nuclear bomb.

Debate using the facts or don't debate at all. Don't insist on your right to abandon them to boring internet-parrot-rhetoric because it's an issue that you find frustrating.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

If anyone's interested, here's a very simple pro-vax argument that relies on the real figures and not the lies.

The main fear that anti-vax people have, is brain injury caused by encephalitis. Encephalitis IS a possible vaccine side effect, at a rate of roughly 1 in 130000.

Encephalitis is also a possible side effect of measles, at a rate of around 1 in 600.

In other words, a child is 200x more likely to get "the scariest side effect" from measles than they are from the MMR.

People don't bother to explain that though, they're happier just saying "reeeeeee if your child gets measles their head will fall off, so you must hate them and be pro-death, get out of our schools reee"

Nothing to add really. But its very rare for me to agree with you much..but on this every word you have typed..I agree with.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's not a black and white issue when what you're touting as "white" is the frankly utterly insane notion of allowing government-enforced medical procedures. I can only imagine the backflips you must be doing in your mind to advocate for this, based on being frustrated by anti-vaxxers. "Some people make dumb decisions so ... time to cancel the right to bodily autonomy I guess!"

You're also drawing completely false comparisons with things like gun laws. The idea that you can convince anti-vaxxers to vaccinate by screeching at them that being anti-vax is being "pro death" is more akin to the idea that you could convince someone to give up their handgun by repeatedly bellowing that it's secretly a nuclear bomb.

Debate using the facts or don't debate at all. Don't insist on your right to abandon them to boring internet-parrot-rhetoric because it's an issue that you find frustrating.

Be less of a hypocrite, TS. You've been preaching about how we need to handle anti-vaxxers with kid gloves and be respectful to them but you've been screeching at me telling me to grow up because my views upset you. Come speak to me when you've sorted out your hypocrisy because you can't be all 'we need to reason and treat anti-vaxxers with kindness!' in one breath and then be patronising as **** to someone you disagree with. That **** won't fly with me and that hypocrisy will completely upend everything you're saying here.

[Vicky.]

The main fear I hear from parents (mind, sample size is very small..) is the link with vaccination and autism. And no amount of showing them that Wakefield was an a fraud will get them to see reason.

Did he go to prison? He ****ing should have as he is responsible for a LOT of this.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

The main fear I hear from parents (mind, sample size is very small..) is the link with vaccination and autism. And no amount of showing them that Wakefield was an a fraud will get them to see reason.

Did he go to prison? He ****ing should have as he is responsible for a LOT of this.

To me, the anti-vaxx movement is just another example of how humanity is becoming wilfully dumb to facts. We live in an age where people will believe fairy tales they want to believe are true over science, where people think facts can be overcome with belief and I hate it. I hate how we're sliding back through wilful ignorance.

I will never tolerate an anti-vaxx viewpoint or anything that even slightly validates it because the only way this world will continue spinning is if people drop the fantasy worlds they live in and rejoin reality. The anti-vaxx movement is a testament to stupidity and an insult to all the sacrifices and efforts of people that all but eradicated these illnesses that are coming back.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Be less of a hypocrite, TS. You've been preaching about how we need to handle anti-vaxxers with kid gloves and be respectful to them but you've been screeching at me telling me to grow up because my views upset you. Come speak to me when you've sorted out your hypocrisy because you can't be all 'we need to reason and treat anti-vaxxers with kindness!' in one breath and then be patronising as **** to someone you disagree with. That **** won't fly with me and that hypocrisy will completely upend everything you're saying here.

I'm talking about the best way to handle them in order to convince them to vaccinate and address a large issue, I'm not saying treat them with kid gloves out of concern for their feelings . Honestly when it comes right down to it I don't care all THAT much about how you speak to them, so long as no one starts sticking needles in anyone with dubious levels of consent. (Remember: consent under duress is NOT consent.)


All of this aside... I've not even started on one of my main gripes with "vax-hyperbole" rhetoric. The constantly touted (and completely incorrect) assertion that infant and child mortality rates have dramatically dropped over the last century thanks to vaccination.

This is false. Vaccination has improved rates slightly, but it is MINISCULE in comparison to the ACTUAL reason for the vast reduction in infant mortality. Which is undeniably, 100%, the discovery of penicillin and further development of anti-biotics.

Why is this important? Because anti-biotics are at risk. Ironically, they're MOST at risk from exactly the same people who are furious at other parents for not vaccinating; the parents who rush their kids for AB's at the slightest cough. And the doctors who over-prescribe them. The effects of AB resistance have the potential to be utterly catastrophic, orders of magnitude above what would happen if EVERYONE stopped vaccinating tomorrow.

But how do you even begin to convince the public of the FACT that anti-biotics are the real reason - almost entirely - for reduced child death, and that we must preserve working anti-biotics and reduce AB resistance progression at all costs - when there's a horde of other people insisting that reduced child mortality is all thanks to vaccination? It's very difficult. Very, very difficult. The idea that vaccines have "saved the children" is firmly rooted in the public mindset.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

The main fear I hear from parents (mind, sample size is very small..) is the link with vaccination and autism. And no amount of showing them that Wakefield was an a fraud will get them to see reason.

Did he go to prison? He ****ing should have as he is responsible for a LOT of this.

The problem is that vaccine-related encephalitis can cause permanent brain injury that can manifest as learning disability, and that often gets "lumped in" with autism (even though it is NOT autism). So people see "evidence" of "something that looks a bit like autism" resulting from vaccine injury and assume that Wakefield must have been right all along.

Of course, we're supposed to lie and pretend that LD can't be a result of vaccination because that's how we'll convince people to vaccinate, and telling the truth "just gives anti-vaxxers ammo". Apparently.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm talking about the best way to handle them in order to convince them to vaccinate and address a large issue, I'm not saying treat them with kid gloves out of concern for their feelings . Honestly when it comes right down to it I don't care all THAT much about how you speak to them, so long as no one starts sticking needles in anyone with dubious levels of consent. (Remember: consent under duress is NOT consent.)


All of this aside... I've not even started on one of my main gripes with "vax-hyperbole" rhetoric. The constantly touted (and completely incorrect) assertion that infant and child mortality rates have dramatically dropped over the last century thanks to vaccination.

This is false. Vaccination has improved rates slightly, but it is MINISCULE in comparison to the ACTUAL reason for the vast reduction in infant mortality. Which is undeniably, 100%, the discovery of penicillin and further development of anti-biotics.

Why is this important? Because anti-biotics are at risk. Ironically, they're MOST at risk from exactly the same people who are furious at other parents for not vaccinating; the parents who rush their kids for AB's at the slightest cough. And the doctors who over-prescribe them. The effects of AB resistance have the potential to be utterly catastrophic, orders of magnitude above what would happen if EVERYONE stopped vaccinating tomorrow.

But how do you even begin to convince the public of the FACT that anti-biotics are the real reason - almost entirely - for reduced child death, and that we must preserve working anti-biotics and reduce AB resistance progression at all costs - when there's a horde of other people insisting that reduced child mortality is all thanks to vaccination? It's very difficult. Very, very difficult. The idea that vaccines have "saved the children" is firmly rooted in the public mindset.

More attempts at validating the anti-vaxx movement while not dealing with the utter hypocrisy how you approach the different sides. You're just being the Abby Huntsman of anti-vaxx.

At the end of the day we are seeing a rise of infection rates of illnesses that were almost non-existent before, that's purely because of the anti-vaxx movement and their stupidity is putting people who genuinely have valid reasons to not be vaccinated at risk. You can jump through as many hoops as you like but thousands of kids get immunised every day without incident and everything that anti-vaxxers preach is basically bull**** regurgitated from a conman doctor that was struck off the register.

Even if this bill goes through, it's not gonna force parents to immunise their children, it just means that if their insane beliefs are more important to them then the well being of their child, they'll have to homeschool them instead.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

To me, the anti-vaxx movement is just another example of how humanity is becoming wilfully dumb to facts. We live in an age where people will believe fairy tales they want to believe are true over science, where people think facts can be overcome with belief and I hate it. I hate how we're sliding back through wilful ignorance.

I will never tolerate an anti-vaxx viewpoint or anything that even slightly validates it because the only way this world will continue spinning is if people drop the fantasy worlds they live in and rejoin reality. The anti-vaxx movement is a testament to stupidity and an insult to all the sacrifices and efforts of people that all but eradicated these illnesses that are coming back.

Yeah agree with all this too tbh,

I don't quite understand why some are willing to overlook everything else, and cling on to one study by Wakefield..