[Twosugars]

The longer the cons oppose it the more popular it will get. Win-win imo

[Greg!]

Originally Posted by Livia

How does that change the fact that the last referendum was a once in a lifetime vote? It didn't say it was a once in a lifetime vote, unless Nicola gets a particularly good result partially because Labour failed. And Boris has a mandate for something the people actually voted for last time.

Politicians say a lot of things. Alex Salmond also said before the vote in 2014 there could be a second vote if there was a mandate to hold one in a Scottish Parliament election, which happened in 2016, as well as the second mandate in the election last month. Referendums do tend to be ‘once in a generation’ but Scotland was told the only way to stay in the EU was to vote No. Well we did vote no, and were ignored. A lot has changed since 2014, surely you must see that?

[Cherie]

Sadiq has now issued a licence for a party

[arista]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Sadiq has now issued a licence for a party

Very Good
of the Mayor

[Cherie]

I'm in the wrong thread

back to the bong thread with this one

[Twosugars]

Didnt know there was a party celebrating the refusal of the referendum

So many parties..wow

[James]

I can't believe so many people are cheer leading for the UK to be broken up.

It's like Remainers are thinking 'we didn't get what we wanted with Brexit so we might as well trash the country'.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by James

I can't believe so many people are cheer leading for the UK to be broken up.

It's like Remainers are thinking 'we didn't get what we wanted with Brexit so we might as well trash the country'.

Completely wrong.

I'm for equality, Brexiters are picking and choosing what's considered democratic based on their own preferences. It's utterly hypocritical for a brexiter to deny Scotland a referendum when I remember back in 2016, on the day of the vote when things didn't look good for Brexit, that brexiters were already lining up their excuses and accusations, plans for another vote.

The landscape has changed since the last indyref. Scotland voted to remain, and they've voted heavily in favour of the SNP whose whole stance in independence. The EU was a big part of why the last Indyref failed and I think a lot of people that voted against leaving the UK would vote for it now.

We can't force Scotland to stay with us if they don't want to and they deserve to have the choice of facing Brexit with us or going their own way.

Trying to paint that as spite on the part of remainers is just plain dishonest.

[James]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Completely wrong.

I'm for equality, Brexiters are picking and choosing what's considered democratic based on their own preferences. It's utterly hypocritical for a brexiter to deny Scotland a referendum when I remember back in 2016, on the day of the vote when things didn't look good for Brexit, that brexiters were already lining up their excuses and accusations, plans for another vote.

The landscape has changed since the last indyref. Scotland voted to remain, and they've voted heavily in favour of the SNP whose whole stance in independence. The EU was a big part of why the last Indyref failed and I think a lot of people that voted against leaving the UK would vote for it now.

We can't force Scotland to stay with us if they don't want to and they deserve to have the choice of facing Brexit with us or going their own way.

Trying to paint that as spite on the part of remainers is just plain dishonest.

Well, I am Scottish and I don't want another referendum because I think independence would be a very bad idea - a historic mistake, and also how bitter and divisive another campaign would be.

I never wanted another EU referendum (after 2016) either because I recognised how entrenched people's views had become, and how much worse another referendum would be.

Polls here show that most people don't want independence, and the SNP don't get overwhelming support - they get in the 40% range in elections now - and many people don't like them.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by James

Polls here show that most people don't want independence, and the SNP don't get overwhelming support - they get in the 40% range in elections now - and many people don't like them.

45% in the last GE and an 8% increase over 2017, and there's no reason to assume that only SNP voters would vote for independence. Stop trying to mislead with fudged figures .

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by James

Well, I am Scottish and I don't want another referendum because I think independence would be a very bad idea - a historic mistake, and also how bitter and divisive another campaign would be.

I never wanted another EU referendum (after 2016) either because I recognised how entrenched people's views had become, and how much worse another referendum would be.

Polls here show that most people don't want independence, and the SNP don't get overwhelming support - they get in the 40% range in elections now - and many people don't like them.

If enough people are demanding a vote then the government must listen, it is the democratic way of things. As TS has said, your stats aren't exactly infallible, the SNP's hold has increased with every election in the past few years and there's no reason to believe that their hold will get weaker since people aren't likely to vote for the Tories and Labour's in disarray. With Labour in the state it's in, SNP's majority in Scotland will likely only increase.

A brexiter like Boris denying Scotland a referendum is nothing short of high hypocrisy.

[Josy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

45% in the last GE and an 8% increase over 2017, and there's no reason to assume that only SNP voters would vote for independence. Stop trying to mislead with fudged figures .

An very similar percent as the first indyref (45 for 55 against iirc?)

If you are judging by the figures of the latest GE then it points to Scotland still not wanting independence.

[Josy]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

If enough people are demanding a vote then the government must listen, it is the democratic way of things. As TS has said, your stats aren't exactly infallible, the SNP's hold has increased with every election in the past few years and there's no reason to believe that their hold will get weaker since people aren't likely to vote for the Tories and Labour's in disarray. With Labour in the state it's in, SNP's majority in Scotland will likely only increase.

A brexiter like Boris denying Scotland a referendum is nothing short of high hypocrisy.

Disregarding the vote from the first referendum isn't exactly democratic either though.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Josy

Disregarding the vote from the first referendum isn't exactly democratic either though.

You must admit though that brexit constitutes a serious and material change in circumstances

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Josy

Disregarding the vote from the first referendum isn't exactly democratic either though.

Having another ref is not disregarding, it's asking again due to major constitutional change. That is very democratic

[Josy]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

You must admit though that brexit constitutes a serious and material change in circumstances

That seems to be what's posted ad nauseam tbh, the fact is you cant completely disregard what the voters chose first time round by claiming it's democratic to hold another election. That would be true hypocrisy.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by James

I can't believe so many people are cheer leading for the UK to be broken up.

It's like Remainers are thinking 'we didn't get what we wanted with Brexit so we might as well trash the country'.

Well what's the difference they are both unions of countries...not country.
This is the issue nobody sees the other countries in Britain as deserving of a voice.

It's hypocritical to suggest we leave one union to assert our independence while at the same time denying another that right.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Josy

That seems to be what's posted ad nauseam tbh, the fact is you cant completely disregard what the voters chose first time round by claiming it's democratic to hold another election. That would be true hypocrisy.

Posted ad nauseam bc it is true.
It's hard to imagine a bigger upheaval in terms of change than that.

[Kizzy]

If the circumstances were the same as in indy ref 1 I would agree to a definate no. But they are not, they are being torn away from the European union , with all their rights, protection, funding, laws and trade for what?...

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Having another ref is not disregarding, it's asking again due to major constitutional change. That is very democratic

Not me agreeing with you

[parmnion]

Such politeness for the management....why can't it be like this all the time?

[bitontheslide]

I can see why Scottish people may feel they are out of step with england regarding the wish to remain part of the EU, but something the SNP are being very quiet on is that Scotland are much less financially viable as an independent entity than they were when the last referendum was held and it was touch and go financially back then because the SNP's figures didn't add up.

To (re) join the EU they wouldn't pass the relevant financial criteria either without major reforms

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

If the circumstances were the same as in indy ref 1 I would agree to a definate no. But they are not, they are being torn away from the European union , with all their rights, protection, funding, laws and trade for what?...

You are discussing scotland as a whole...sorry, but scotland just ain't like that.

No matter what the snp won in the election scotland is still very divided...so NO...another referendum is not just pointless but also unjust and undemocratic.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by parmnion

You are discussing scotland as a whole...sorry, but scotland just ain't like that.

No matter what the snp won in the election scotland is still very divided...so NO...another referendum is not just pointless but also unjust and undemocratic.

Just like England then?..

Again the argument for another ref would be based on the result of the EU ref and warranted on that principle for me.

[Toy Soldier]

For what it's worth I strongly suspect another referendum would yield more or less exactly the same result as the first one if held right now. Holding one before the full effects of Brexit become apparent is not sensible. If Brexit is a disaster, the voters should know that before deciding on independence. In the unrealistic even that Brexit is actually an economic success for the rUK, then unfortunately I feel that independence with rUK outside a common market is probably a mistake. Realistically, trade between Scotland and England is always going to be higher, and it may be more sensible to seek DevoMax (full devolution of taxation, benefits and social care - THESE are the important factors) over full indy.

On the thread topic though, the letter to BoJo is a formality and they will obviously have fully expected a "no" from Westminster, it's just something they legally had to do before pushing other avenues.