[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Alf

Rubbish, the hospital staff have until April, which suggests they're safe enough to work for another 5 months. If they were a danger they would be let go with immediate effect. I hope they all strike for the Winter until these authoritarian mandates are scrapped. Then we'll see a pandemic.

Canada have already backed down from their mandates.

I didn’t say anything about how safe it is or isn’t, I said having a vaccine mandate to work with vulnerable people does not constitute an encroachment on individual freedoms. It’s a job requirement. Think of it like a qualification, I suppose. It’s like 3-C’s-at-GCSE Jimmy being told he can’t have a job as a research academic because he doesn’t have a degree and him saying “waaah but I want to be a research academic, why are you stealing muh freedoms”. Or a man with no arms being told he unfortunately can’t be a firefighter, and screaming “discrimination!”.

It’s not a freedoms issue. It’s a job requirement. If you can’t or don’t want to meet the job requirements, find another job.

That said it’s all probably an empty threat anyway - there’s already a dire shortage of healthcare staff, they can’t afford to fire too many. They might just make a few highly publicised examples and hope that it’s enough to convince the others.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

I can't fathom why they would NOT want a jab. There is now enough statistical information to prove that jabs lower your risk of serious illness....dealing with sick people I would like all the protection I could. Like construction workers are not allowed on site without a hard hat, steel toe caps and high vis....

The difference is, people see the benefits in wearing steel toe caps and Hard hats, they agree with that, and they're not injecting something into their bodies, but many, many people don't see this as logical.

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Alf

It's simple, they don't believe what they're being told.

Can you fathom how the German people followed Hitler in the 1930s and into the 1940s? Can you fathom how they executed Jews without a second thought? It was through fear propaganda, similar to this.

I'm sure a construction worker doesn't think a piece of plastic on his will stop an iron girder killing him if it fell from a crane....but he still HAS to wear a hard hat on site.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I didn’t say anything about how safe it is or isn’t, I said having a vaccine mandate to work with vulnerable people does not constitute an encroachment on individual freedoms. It’s a job requirement. Think of it like a qualification, I suppose. It’s like 3-C’s-at-GCSE Jimmy being told he can’t have a job as a research academic because he doesn’t have a degree and him saying “waaah but I want to be a research academic, why are you stealing muh freedoms”. Or a man with no arms being told he unfortunately can’t be a firefighter, and screaming “discrimination!”.

It’s not a freedoms issue. It’s a job requirement. If you can’t or don’t want to meet the job requirements, find another job.

That said it’s all probably an empty threat anyway - there’s already a dire shortage of healthcare staff, they can’t afford to fire too many. They might just make a few highly publicised examples and hope that it’s enough to convince the others.

Does Jimmy have to inject something into his body?

Would you inject heroin into you if it was mandated to keep your job, or would you be angry that you had to do that, and feel you're being oppressed?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Alf

Would you inject heroin into you if it was mandated to keep your job, or would you be angry that you had to do that, and feel you're being oppressed?

The fact that you’re equating a vaccine to heroin honestly is just a ludicrous example of why this isn’t a real debate of any kind. I largely agree that medical procedures shouldn’t be mandatory but this is just over-the-top nonsense. “And what if your employer said you had to shoot someone in the face - would you do that???”. Soldiers (real ones, not the friendlier, more handsome Toy versions) have to do that. So I choose not to become a soldier. I don’t say “uhh but actually I still want to be a soldier I can’t believe you won’t let me be a soldier who doesn’t shoot anyone!”

In fact you can use an example I’ve already used. Running into a burning building is literally a million times more risky than taking a vaccine. Would I run into a burning building if my boss told me to? No ****ing chance. Guess who does that. Firefighters. People who don’t want to run into burning buildings don’t get to be firefighters. People who don’t want to vaccinate against illnesses that could kill their patients don’t get to work in healthcare. This is not a complicated issue.

[Alf]

The people all over the World are protesting on mass against this and they're being ignored by the media, they're not protesting against hard hats, steel toe caps and GCSE's

Do the people rule or does the government and media rule?

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The fact that you’re equating a vaccine to heroin honestly is just a ludicrous example of why this isn’t a real debate of any kind. I largely agree that medical procedures shouldn’t be mandatory but this is just over-the-top nonsense. “And what if your employer said you had to shoot someone in the face - would you do that???”. Soldiers (real ones, not the friendlier, more handsome Toy versions) have to do that. So I choose not to become a soldier. I don’t say “uhh but actually I still want to be a soldier I can’t believe you won’t let me be a soldier who doesn’t shoot anyone!”

In fact you can use an example I’ve already used. Running into a burning building is literally a million times more risky than taking a vaccine. Would I run into a burning building if my boss told me to? No ****ing chance. Guess who does that. Firefighters. People who don’t want to run into burning buildings don’t get to be firefighters. People who don’t want to vaccinate against illnesses that could kill their patients don’t get to work in healthcare. This is not a complicated issue.

I'm equating heroin and the vaccine because you're equating an injection into your body with PPE and GCSE's, two can play at that game.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Alf

The people all over the World are protesting on mass against this and they're being ignored by the media, they're not protesting against hard hats, steel toe caps and GCSE's

Do the people rule or does the government and media rule?

The government’s mandate in a democracy is to cater to the majority not to pander to a vocal minority. Try this argument again when more than 50% of the population is anti vaccination - not 5%. They are not protesting “on mass”. They are protesting in small, loud, uninformed pockets.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Alf

I'm equating heroin and the vaccine because you're equating an injection into your body with PPE and GCSE's, two can play at that fame.

We’ll go with my firefighter example then and I’ll let you argue that taking a vaccine is more dangerous than entering burning buildings.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The government’s mandate in a democracy is to cater to the majority not to pander to a vocal minority. Try this argument again when more than 50% of the population is anti vaccination - not 5%. They are not protesting “on mass”. They are protesting in small, loud, uninformed pockets.

I don't believe you're in the majority. Have you asked all the people that haven't even given an opinion?

Let's have a referendum on the mandates and find out. If at least 60,000 people who work in medical jobs are saying no, when you'd think they're all about health, then imagine what the rest of the 1000s of industries would add up to. You could never know because they arne't given a voice, so obviously you believe you're in the majority.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Alf

I don't believe you're in the majority. Have you asked all the people that haven't even given an opinion?

Let's have a referendum on the mandates and find out. If at least 60,000 people who work in medical jobs are saying no, when you'd think they're all about health, that imagine what the rest of the 1000s of industries would add up to. You could never know because they arne't given a voice, so obviously you believe you're in the majority.

I’ve already said I don’t agree with mandatory vaccine for non-healthcare employment so that’s not relevant? The only relevant question is whether or not healthcare staff, specifically, should have vaccines as a job requirement.

Again though I don’t think it’s even about majority pleb opinion. If you can’t give me a convincing argument for why people who don’t want to enter burning buildings should still be allowed to be firefighters, then you can’t give me a convincing argument for why people who don’t want to be vaccinated should still be allowed to work in care settings with vulnerable people.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I’ve already said I don’t agree with mandatory vaccine for non-healthcare employment so that’s not relevant? The only relevant question is whether or not healthcare staff, specifically, should have vaccines as a job requirement.

Again though I don’t think it’s even about majority pleb opinion. If you can’t give me a convincing argument for why people who don’t want to enter burning buildings should still be allowed to be firefighters, then you can’t give me a convincing argument for why people who don’t want to be vaccinated should still be allowed to work in care settings with vulnerable people.

I don't really get your question, but I'll try and answer from how I think what you're saying.

Firefighters who don't want to enter burning buildings can tackle fires from the outside while the ones who will enter buildings go in. They could drive the truck, do investigations, and there will be other jobs that are required in the fire department that don't require they enter a building.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Alf

Firefighters who don't want to enter burning buildings can tackle fires from the outside while the ones who will enter buildings go in. They could drive the truck, do investigations, and there will be other jobs that are required in the fire department that don't require they enter a building.

I honestly didn’t think you’d actually try to argue that people who don’t want to fight fires should be allowed to be firefighters but it’s bizarre enough for me to have had enough of this conversation, sorry .

[Toy Soldier]

Just to be clear Alf, if a firefighter said they no longer wanted to tackle fires they’d be told to take a hike. They wouldn’t be given a desk job.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I honestly didn’t think you’d actually try to argue that people who don’t want to fight fires should be allowed to be firefighters but it’s bizarre enough for me to have had enough of this conversation, sorry .

Well obviously I don't get what your question is that you're asking.

[joeysteele]

It's sad to think good care staff will be lost.
I don't understand why now, after all the time that's passed from the first vaccine, then the second and now to the booster.
Why those who can have it won't.

It's been stated by all the science and health advice, the strength of the protection gets less over time of the first vaccinations.
Hence the need for this booster.

On a personal level, I'm sorry but my Mum is not too well now, she has had all her vaccinations so she's protected more from covid.
I would not want, or let anyone near my Mum who wasn't vaccinated.

So overall I support the position of the vaccine is there, so it is a requirement for working in the care and hospital sectors.

I can accept some may not want anything injected into their bodies, they're unsure about.
Very sadly, that will mean then unless the government changes its mind.
They'll need to find another job.
It's a desperately sad situation however for me and mine, no one unvaccinated would I want around my Mum and in fact family.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Just to be clear Alf, if a firefighter said they no longer wanted to tackle fires they’d be told to take a hike. They wouldn’t be given a desk job.

OK, I get it.

My answer again would be the same as the PPE.

Are they being made to inject something into their bodies to keep their jobs when they sign up? They know the dangers of the job when they sign up to being a firefighter, so unless when they signed up they were told that you must inject something into your body, then it's the same as the PPE argument.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Alf

Well obviously I don't get what your question is that you're asking.

Tackling fires is extremely risky.

Taking a vaccine is not very risky.

Firefighters have to be willing to tackle fires to be firefighters, or they are putting the public in danger.

Healthcare workers have to be willing to have certain vaccinations, or they are putting the public in danger.

People who don’t want to tackle fires because they’re worried about the danger should (obviously, I would have thought) choose a non-firefighting career.

People who don’t want to have a vaccine because they’re worried about the danger should choose a non-healthcare career.

Neither are being forced to do anything. No one is being forced into burning buildings. No one is being forced to take the vaccine.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

It's sad to think good care staff will be lost.
I don't understand why now, after all the time that's passed from the first vaccine, then the second and now to the booster.
Why those who can have it won't.

It's been stated by all the science and health advice, the strength of the protection gets less over time of the first vaccinations.
Hence the need for this booster.

On a personal level, I'm sorry but my Mum is not too well now, she has had all her vaccinations so she's protected more from covid.
I would not want, or let anyone near my Mum who wasn't vaccinated.

So overall I support the position of the vaccine is there, so it is a requirement for working in the care and hospital sectors.

I can accept some may not want anything injected into their bodies, they're unsure about.
Very sadly, that will mean then unless the government changes its mind.
They'll need to find another job.
It's a desperately sad situation however for me and mine, no one unvaccinated would I want around my Mum and in fact family.

But what you're saying is that even though your mum is fully vaccinated, you don't trust that the vaccines protect her, so you have no faith in the vaccines. These people also have no faith in the vaccines, and they believe it's more risky to take one then to not take one.

Hope your mum gets well soon.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Alf

OK, I get it.

My answer again would be the same as the PPE.

Are the being made to inject something into their bodies to keep their jobs? They know the dangers of the job when they sign up to being a firefighter, so unless when they signed up they were told that you must inject something into your body, then it's the same as the PPE argument.

You’re hyperfocussed on the “inject something into their bodies” aspect. This is an irrational fear and it’s objectively far (far) less risky than entering a burins building, or a huge number of other examples of job requirements.

You may have a point in terms of contracts - it may not be legal to fire someone for not having the vaccine if they were hired pre-mandate. However, there’s nothing stopping them adding a clause on new contracts. And fire-and-rehire is a time tested method of forcing employees to accept updated contract terms in this country. Unfortunately.

A really delicious irony is that EU employment law would have made it harder for them to fire people. Oh well.

[Alf]

For the record, all of my family are vaccinated. I'm not anti-vax, I'm just pro free choice on something like this.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Alf

But what you're saying is that even though your mum is fully vaccinated, you don't trust that the vaccines protect her, so you have no faith in the vaccines.

This is incorrect logic; everyone knows (it is in fact proven) that none of the vaccines are 100% guaranteed to stop illness or death and so no one can be considered 100% protected. That is in no way the same as having “no faith” in vaccines.

To use allegory again; if you strap on a parachute and jump out of a plane, do you believe there is NO chance of injury or death? That parachutes are 100% effective 100% of the time? Of course not, everyone realises there are still risks in skydiving. Does that mean those people have “no faith in parachutes”? Does it mean they should jump out of the plane without one, declaring that it makes no difference?

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

This is incorrect logic; everyone knows (it is in fact proven) that none of the vaccines are 100% guaranteed to stop illness or death and so no one can be considered 100% protected. That is in no way the same as having “no faith” in vaccines.

To use allegory again; if you strap on a parachute and jump out of a plane, do you believe there is NO chance of injury or death? That parachutes are 100% effective 100% of the time? Of course not, everyone realises there are still risks in skydiving. Does that mean those people have “no faith in parachutes”? Does it mean they should jump out of the plane without one, declaring that it makes no difference?

I would never do a parachute jump unless there was no other choice, I've never even been on a plane in my life. The no other choice would be if I was on a plane and it was gonna crash, then I'd take the chance. Parachute jumps and sky diving are free choices.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Alf

For the record, all of my family are vaccinated. I'm not anti-vax, I'm just pro free choice on something like this.

I’m 100% against actual mandatory medical procedures and always will be, I would never support enforced vaccination of the whole population.

I just disagree that it being made a job requirement in a specific industry like healthcare is a removal of freedoms any more than any other job requirement. If someone doesn’t like the job requirements of a job (any job) they have the freedom to say “not for me, sorry” and find other employment. Trying to describe it as “being forced” is too problematic because all sorts of jobs have all sorts of requirements… the idea that “anyone should be able to have any job they want with no prerequisites” just isn’t feasible.

Legally (and practically) I think it’s probably not possible to fire all of the healthcare workers who refuse.

Morally I think that people who are in healthcare (or at the very least, working with the elderly) should either get vaccinated or voluntarily step away. The risk to the over-80’s with Covid is genuinely massive. It’s completely different to pretty much any other scenario.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Alf

I would never do a parachute jump unless there was no other choice, I've never even been on a plane in my life. The no other choice would be if I was on a plane and it was gonna crash, then I'd take the chance.

So you accept that you’re more likely to survive if you use a parachute than if you don’t, whilst agreeing that parachuting still has risks… or in other words, accepting that something isn’t a guarantee doesn’t mean you have “no faith” in that thing.