[Nicky91]

Piers being insulted doesn't surprise me anymore and anything that little troll says is stinking rubbish


let him get shipped off to Ukraine too pls, if he thinks the war there is ''fake'' his latest disgusting tweet, maybe he should fight in the frontline

[ThomasC]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Single sex spaces (bathrooms and changing areas, refuges, prisons), it should go without saying why women deserve them.


Because they're not women.


You can't change your biological sex. They absolutely are still male. Gender identity has about as much sway over the physical as does religion.

I don't see an issue if you've gone through the change why you would not be able to use the same facilities.

Transwomen have rights too.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by ThomasC

Well why do women deserve their own spaces? And when you say spaces, what are you referring to?

It's not a competition. How do trans women nullify women's spaces? Again, what spaces?

Safeguarding.

I thought you worked in healthcare Thomas? If it needs more explanation than that one word I’m a little concerned.

Anyway, in the spirit of a good faith discussion: it’s not about “all trans people being dangerous” or anything of the sort, it’s about the push for and incoming likely adoption of “self-ID” laws that will completely remove the ability for women-only spaces to be kept safe from predatory men (not trans people) who can simply declare themselves transgender in order to access those spaces, and challenging that self declaration will be illegal.

The counter argument seems to be that “predators won’t do that” but that’s so laughably false it’s not even worth debating. Of course they will.

[Alf]

Oh dear, what a pickle we've got ourselves in!

I'll stock up on popcorn.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by ThomasC

I don't see an issue if you've gone through the change why you would not be able to use the same facilities.

Transwomen have rights too.

I agree that trans people who have transitioned should be able to and trans identifying people who are in the process should have special provision made so that they don’t have to use any gendered space.

The problem is that the current movement is not about traditional transsexuality where people actually transition, it’s the new “gender identity” philosophy that you can just declare your gender and that’s that, no matter how you present. I think maybe there’s an idea that that isn’t what’s happening but… it is.

I personally think “new gender ideology” is going to end up utterly trashing trans rights as well. It renders the entire concept of gender meaningless, and that is ENTIRELY incompatible with someone considering themselves to be trans.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by ThomasC

I don't see an issue if you've gone through the change why you would not be able to use the same facilities.

Transwomen have rights too.

"The Change"

Whatever they change about themselves, they're male. Michael Jackson didn't become caucasian, Elton John's wigs don't reverse hair loss.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Safeguarding.

I thought you worked in healthcare Thomas? If it needs more explanation than that one word I’m a little concerned.

Anyway, in the spirit of a good faith discussion: it’s not about “all trans people being dangerous” or anything of the sort, it’s about the push for and incoming likely adoption of “self-ID” laws that will completely remove the ability for women-only spaces to be kept safe from predatory men (not trans people) who can simply declare themselves transgender in order to access those spaces, and challenging that self declaration will be illegal.

The counter argument seems to be that “predators won’t do that” but that’s so laughably false it’s not even worth debating. Of course they will.

.

and people can claim that this wont happen or it will only happen in a small number of cases which of course may be the case, however one dead or asualted woman is one too many

[ThomasC]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

"The Change"

Whatever they change about themselves, they're male. Michael Jackson didn't become caucasian, Elton John's wigs don't reverse hair loss.

The lack of empathy is astounding. Thankfully you've never struggled with gender identity. You can be as padantic as you want.

I don't give a **** whether a female who use to be a male wants to use a bathroom labelled male or visa versa. I'm more bothered about people being happy rather than getting my knickers in a twist over something that doesn't affect me.

If they have transitioned I don't see an issue with. I am all for equality and fairness.

For example, I don't think it's fair that someone who has transitioned should compete in certain sports events.

But I think we should be more accepting and diverse. Unfortunately we're not. It's very sad

[Alf]

What do men think about trans-men sharing their spaces? I only ever see the argument about trans-women and women's spaces.

[ThomasC]

Originally Posted by Alf

What do men think about trans-men sharing their spaces? I only ever see the argument about trans-women and women's spaces.

No issue.

[Nicky91]

it's all a mental thing, born into the wrong body


everybody should be allowed who he or she is for themselves




but i'm not going into this discussion because it has no point talking towards some people who think they know it better

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by ThomasC

The lack of empathy is astounding. Thankfully you've never struggled with gender identity. You can be as padantic as you want.

I don't give a **** whether a female who use to be a male wants to use a bathroom labelled male or visa versa. I'm more bothered about people being happy rather than getting my knickers in a twist over something that doesn't affect me.

If they have transitioned I don't see an issue with. I am all for equality and fairness.

For example, I don't think it's fair that someone who has transitioned should compete in certain sports events.

But I think we should be more accepting and diverse. Unfortunately we're not. It's very sad

Toy Soldiers posts explain it pretty well. You keep saying "if they have transitioned" this is where the problem lies with this "new wave" of trans ideology, the traditional transexual is pretty much being taken over by the idea that sexed bodies aren't even a thing anymore, women can have penises, men can have vaginas etc etc This is of course a massive issue for safe guarding for women and an attack on our right to single sex spaces.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by ThomasC

No issue.

No issue for me either, but I can see why women would have an issue. Mainly for some of the points that Toy Soldier said about sexual predators taking advantage of the laws.

[ThomasC]

Originally Posted by Cherie

.

and people can claim that this wont happen or it will only happen in a small number of cases which of course may be the case, however one dead or asualted woman is one too many

What's the alternative solution? That we victimise a whole group of people? Make them feel more isolated?

Assaults happen in bathrooms regardless. I think it's a balancing act.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by ThomasC

What's the alternative solution? That we victimise a whole group of people? Make them feel more isolated?

Assaults happen in bathrooms regardless. I think it's a balancing act.

So the solution is taking away safe guarding because "it could happen anyway"? That's crazy, I mean would you think it's ok to take away Police vetting for example of people who want to work with children because "abusers will find away anyway"?

What about the violent men who identify as women so they can be housed in the women's estates in prisons? This has happened by the way. And I say men because these people have not transitioned.

[ThomasC]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Toy Soldiers posts explain it pretty well. You keep saying "if they have transitioned" this is where the problem lies with this "new wave" of trans ideology, the traditional transexual is pretty much being taken over by the idea that sexed bodies aren't even a thing anymore, women can have penises, men can have vaginas etc etc This is of course a massive issue for safe guarding for women and an attack on our right to single sex spaces.

There will always be people who will abuse it unfortunately. We'll agree to disagree on this one. There will always be risks. People get assaulted in bathrooms regardless of trans or not. You have cubicles anyway.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by ThomasC

There will always be people who will abuse it unfortunately. We'll agree to disagree on this one. There will always be risks. People get assaulted in bathrooms regardless of trans or not. You have cubicles anyway.

I will never agree to disagree on this subject I'm afraid Thomas, it's too important for the safety of women and girls. Why should women and girls be "acceptable collateral damage" just to validate a man's feelings? We should not and we will not.

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by ThomasC

There will always be people who will abuse it unfortunately. We'll agree to disagree on this one. There will always be risks. People get assaulted in bathrooms regardless of trans or not. You have cubicles anyway.

your disdain for what amounts to 50% of the worlds population is pretty abhorrent from my perspective. So by your same logic, lets not raise our voices about gays being thrown off of rooftops in muslim countries, lets not speak out and try and protect them. Does that sound ok to you?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by ThomasC

What's the alternative solution? That we victimise a whole group of people? Make them feel more isolated?

Assaults happen in bathrooms regardless. I think it's a balancing act.

It is but that balancing act should not include male-bodied people who still largely present as men having access to women’s facilities based on “gender identity”.

Trans status is a protected characteristic and has been for YEARS. “Gender identity” is not and there’s no reason for it to be. That is the balance. Transitioned people have been using these facilities for years without challenge. Current trans rights activism is trying to push it into this nebulous area of gender ideology and that is the issue… people just don’t seem willing to even discuss that and push it back to being about trans women as the term has classically been understood… I can only guess because they know it is very hard to make a good case for what’s actually being discussed, thus easier to make out that those with concerns are just bigoted about trans issues in general.

[Cherie]

its not just about bathrooms I don't know why people get hung up on bathrooms, for example Thomas do you think a transwoman with a penis who has been assaulted by her partner should have access to a woman only refuge?

[ThomasC]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

So the solution is taking away safe guarding because "it could happen anyway"? That's crazy, I mean would you think it's ok to take away Police vetting for example of people who want to work with children because "abusers will find away anyway"?

What about the violent men who identify as women so they can be housed in the women's estates in prisons? This has happened by the way. And I say men because these people have not transitioned.

Nope, your words not mine.

Also vetting to work with children is completely different.

You're assuming that someone who has transitioned shouldn't use a female bathroom because they might be, what, violent, towards another female or not use it as intended? Yes, of course, it is a possibility. Just like it's a possibility that I could be attacked in a male bathroom

I don't know what the solution is, but I just think it's a shame that someone who genuinely identifies as a woman and has undergone hormone replacement therapy and changed their genitalia would still be expected to use a male bathroom and feel ridiculed, embarrassment for it

[ThomasC]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I will never agree to disagree on this subject I'm afraid Thomas, it's too important for the safety of women and girls. Why should women and girls be "acceptable collateral damage" just to validate a man's feelings? We should not and we will not.

So you are not accepting that they have gone through the change them as you say a 'man's feelings'

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by ThomasC

Nope, your words not mine.

Also vetting to work with children is completely different.

You're assuming that someone who has transitioned shouldn't use a female bathroom because they might be, what, violent, towards another female or not use it as intended? Yes, of course, it is a possibility. Just like it's a possibility that I could be attacked in a male bathroom

I don't know what the solution is, but I just think it's a shame that someone who genuinely identifies as a woman and has undergone hormone replacement therapy and changed their genitalia would still be expected to use a male bathroom and feel ridiculed, embarrassment for it

You're going back to "who has transitioned" again so respectfully, maybe you should read up a little bit more on the current thinking from the trans activists side on this because we're not arguing the same points here at all

[Alf]

Let's create a possible scenario.

A young girl of school age goes into the changing room at the swimming baths and the only person in there is a trans-woman that still has their meat and two veg in tact and has it all out on display. Do you not see a problem with that Thomas?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by ThomasC

So you are not accepting that they have gone through the change them as you say a 'man's feelings'

Again, you're arguing a different point here to what the current line of thinking on this ideology is. We're not talking about fully transitioned transsexuals here at all, as TS has pointed out already these people have been using women's bathrooms etc for years with no real issues from women. These people are not the problem