[bitontheslide]

life isn't fair

[arista]

[Archie Battersbee treatment should stop, judge rules

Treatment for a brain-damaged boy
in a coma should stop, a judge has ruled.
Archie Battersbee, 12, was found unconscious
at his home in Southend, Essex, on 7 April.

Doctors treating him at the
Royal London Hospital in
east London told the High Court
it was "highly likely" he was
"brain-stem dead" and asked
for his life support to end.

Archie's mother Hollie Dance said she
was "devastated" and the family planned to appeal.
The court previously heard that Archie suffered
brain damage during an incident at home,
which his mother believed may
have been related to an online challenge.

He has not regained consciousness since.

Archie's mother, and his father Paul Battersbee,
disagreed with the hospital and have been
supported by the Christian Legal Centre
campaigning organisation.]


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-61731843

[arista]

["Basing this judgement on an MRI test
and that he is 'likely' to be dead,
is not good enough.
This is believed to be the first time that
someone has been declared 'likely'
to be dead based on an MRI test."

She said she felt "sickened" that the
hospital and judge had not taken
into account the wishes of the family
and added she did "not believe Archie has
been given enough time".

"His heart is still beating, he has gripped
my hand, and as his mother,
I know he is still in there," she said.

"Until it's God's way I won't accept
he should go.
I know of miracles when people
have come back from being brain dead.

"We intend to appeal and will
not give up on Archie."]

[arista]

Dr. Hilary Live on GMBHD itv

Pointed out his heart is still beating
but turn the Life Support Off
it will stop.

[ThomasC]

Originally Posted by arista

Dr. Hilary Live on GMBHD itv

Pointed out his heart is still beating
but turn the Life Support Off
it will stop.

Yes his heart is still beating because that is what the life support machine is doing,,keeping his heart moving, but his brain is dead. Once they turn that machine off his heart will stop, they are just artificially keeping him alive.

Life can change in the split of a second. There's no words really, but it's just so sad

[bitontheslide]

it's very sad, but being blunt about it, the machine will be better utilised on someone with a chance of survival, and thats what it comes down to in the end

[ThomasC]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

it's very sad, but being blunt about it, the machine will be better utilised on someone with a chance of survival, and thats what it comes down to in the end

Agreed.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

it's very sad, but being blunt about it, the machine will be better utilised on someone with a chance of survival, and thats what it comes down to in the end

See that's where I think there's a slight moral issue though; I'm not saying keep the machines on indefinitely, however if the reason for turning them off is because they're needed elsewhere rather than to reduce suffering EVEN IF there is no chance of recovery, then I think it's a shame that we're in that situation and can't give the family a little more time to come to terms with their loss before forcing the issue. "Lack of resources" doesn't seem a good enough reason to force traumatic action on the family. He isn't suffering so there's no moral reason not to keep the machines on, from that angle.

Again I'm not saying keep the machines on indefinitely, just that (in a perfect world) they could be given more time and counselling to understand what's happened, what brain death means, to come more to terms with the fact that he will never wake up etc. before "brute force" taking control of the situation.

[Niamh.]

The whole thing is just so heartbreaking, those poor people

[rusticgal]

This is such a tragedy. Any parent would fight and have hope but sometimes you have to listen to the experts and think what is best for your son.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

See that's where I think there's a slight moral issue though; I'm not saying keep the machines on indefinitely, however if the reason for turning them off is because they're needed elsewhere rather than to reduce suffering EVEN IF there is no chance of recovery, then I think it's a shame that we're in that situation and can't give the family a little more time to come to terms with their loss before forcing the issue. "Lack of resources" doesn't seem a good enough reason to force traumatic action on the family. He isn't suffering so there's no moral reason not to keep the machines on, from that angle.

Again I'm not saying keep the machines on indefinitely, just that (in a perfect world) they could be given more time and counselling to understand what's happened, what brain death means, to come more to terms with the fact that he will never wake up etc. before "brute force" taking control of the situation.

Well yeah. Clinging onto blind hope aside,I'm not entirely sure his family fully grasps what braindeath means, as in, what's going on with him physically and neurologically, and what things would be like for him if he woke up.
I'm not saying potential brain damage means someone's life isn't worth living, by the way.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by rusticgal

This is such a tragedy. Any parent would fight and have hope but sometimes you have to listen to the experts and think what is best for your son.

I mean tbf he probably isn't suffering he's not conscious so probably has no idea what's going on

[bitontheslide]

every parent wishes for a miracle in this situation, so facts don't really enter into it. Realistically, the process of acceptance could take months or years to reach, and thats why it's necessary to be blunt some times

[ThomasC]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

See that's where I think there's a slight moral issue though; I'm not saying keep the machines on indefinitely, however if the reason for turning them off is because they're needed elsewhere rather than to reduce suffering EVEN IF there is no chance of recovery, then I think it's a shame that we're in that situation and can't give the family a little more time to come to terms with their loss before forcing the issue. "Lack of resources" doesn't seem a good enough reason to force traumatic action on the family. He isn't suffering so there's no moral reason not to keep the machines on, from that angle.

Again I'm not saying keep the machines on indefinitely, just that (in a perfect world) they could be given more time and counselling to understand what's happened, what brain death means, to come more to terms with the fact that he will never wake up etc. before "brute force" taking control of the situation.

They are being given more time though as they are appealing it. There will be counseling and a family liaison officer.

Also, it's not a case of turning them off because they're needed elsewhere and that is certainly not what BOTS is saying, but rather that inevitably his life is extinct and the machine could be used with someone else. If there's a chance of survival them he would be kept on the machine for as long as needed or put into a coma.

There will become a time though where it will need to be switched off. It's not even just about the use of the machine, but the resources, time, cost and bed. We have an amazing NHS, but it is stretched, underfunded and under resourced.

You say rather than to reduce suffering. He isn't suffering.

I think it's a hard one because the grieving process can be extremely long and it's just not viable to keep a machine on for an extended period of time of there's no chance of recovery... Like I say, they're being given time... Will that time ever be enough, no it won't unfortunately

[ThomasC]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Well yeah. Clinging onto blind hope aside,I'm not entirely sure his family fully grasps what braindeath means, as in, what's going on with him physically and neurologically, and what things would be like for him if he woke up.
I'm not saying potential brain damage means someone's life isn't worth living, by the way.

Yeah and as you know brain damage and brain dead are different.

Depending on the extent of the brain damage is a question as to whether that life is worth living.

I have looked after people with brain damage and they are pretty much in a vegetated state and you are just caring for someone who isn't there.... The lights are on and no one is home.

I advocate for euthanasia in extreme cases, but it's extremely complicated and another debate.

Having said that, I express strongly that it depends on the extent of the brain damage and I'm not blanket talking all those with brain damage...but it can leave some with little to no quality of life

[Toy Soldier]

Yeah there are obviously different degrees of brain damage - e.g. plenty of ex-professional-fighters, or people arfter having a tumor removed or aneurism, actually have some degree of brain damage that just manifests as things like slurred speech, memory problems, etc. and in fact there might be no obvious symptoms at all. In this case though it sounds like even on the slimmest of chances of him breathing on his own, he would be in a permanent coma or persistent vegetative state which is effectively not even consciousness.

[ThomasC]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Yeah there are obviously different degrees of brain damage - e.g. plenty of ex-professional-fighters, or people arfter having a tumor removed or aneurism, actually have some degree of brain damage that just manifests as things like slurred speech, memory problems, etc. and in fact there might be no obvious symptoms at all. In this case though it sounds like even on the slimmest of chances of him breathing on his own, he would be in a permanent coma or persistent vegetative state which is effectively not even consciousness.

Yep, brain is divided into 4 sections all responsible for different cognitive functions.

Frontal, occipital, perefial and I can't think of the 4th.

Frontal lobe damage is more common than others

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by ThomasC

Yep, brain is divided into 4 sections all responsible for different cognitive functions.

Frontal, occipital, perefial and I can't think of the 4th.

Frontal lobe damage is more common than others

Frontal, parietal, temporal and occipital plus the cerebellum and then all the “stuff inside” that I couldn’t possibly name. Full disclosure I scraped a pass on neuropsychology/brain anatomy hence then focussing on social psychology rather than physical psychology

[arista]

The Mum claims he gripped her hand

[bitontheslide]

you can imagine anything if you want it enough

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

you can imagine anything if you want it enough

It's very similar to the story a few years ago with the little boy who the parents wanted to take to America for treatment - which is sadly something people have to be aware of both in terms of private healthcare providers who will offer hope in return for insane sums of money when in reality there's no real chance of success... or also offers of experimental treatments for free where the reality of it is really that they're looking for test subjects for data purposes and again have no real hopes of a successful outcome. Desperate parents are "easy targets" for both groups. Not that there isn't good reason for medical research but people need to go into something like that with their eyes fully open, not being promised a shot at a miracle.

[arista]

BBC1 AM

Is doing a big story on Archie
showing more videos
from when he was fit.

And an interview with his Mother.

The Appeal is going through
this week,
they may hear today.

[arista]

The Mother
has been granted an Appeal.


All Media.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by arista

The Mother
has been granted an Appeal.


All Media.

that is great news, they need time to come to terms with what has happened and hope for a miracle

[arista]

[Archie Battersbee parents
win appeal to reconsider case]

[The parents of a 12-year-old boy at the
centre of a life-support dispute have won
an appeal for his case to be heard again.

Archie Battersbee was found unconscious
at his home in Southend, Essex, on 7 April.

A High Court judge previously ruled Archie
was dead and told doctors they could end
his life-support treatment.]

[The Court of Appeal has ordered
a new hearing at the High Court to determine
if it is in Archie's best interests.]


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-61980761