[Soldier Boy]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Trans people and women, were, up until around 2019 sharing spaces without any issue whatsoever, and then women have been propagandised/radicalised (mainly by men) into believing their world is being taken away and they are being replaced by a new group of "chicks with dicks" to quote our Cambridge educated lawyer.

I would be radicalised too, if that's what I believed. Everyone always believes they can see through propaganda, which of course only ever happens to other people, but all of us are susceptible to it.

On the other side of that, we have trans people just going about their lives, until they became the topic on everyone else's tongue, not to include in discussion, but to be attacked, marginalised and placed in fear. As a marginalised minority, they also have every right and I'd go beyond that to say duty, to actually fight for their lives, because eradicating trans genderism is just starting to be brought up in the US, which means it will be here too, soon enough.

That's a real and fundamental difference; the very people you all opine on everyday, now face these real and targeted threats consistently. I mean, what the fcuk are people doing having rallies to attack people. I know the Nazi thing gets overdone, but Jesus

I've obviously had my issues with TS, but he's tied himself in knots here to try and be understanding, but has been met with nothing more than weirdness about either supporting women, or supporting lady boys. It's just not true.

There are no solutions, no attempt to be understanding, just vitriol and abuse thrown at a marginalised community. I have issues with trans people in sports, and I think maybe that's because I played a lot of sports growing up, but none of you (I'll exclude ts here) are in any way interested in finding a way forward. I think the first time I ever posted on trans issues, I asked what solutions you had, and to this day, tibb is still way more interested in finding attack pieces; which is cool if that's what you want to do, but seriously, I never thought I'd be happy to see a M&H thread appear, because I have to say, most of you are being completely ridiculous.


If you can't see there is an all out culture war attack on trans people at this point, then you'll never see it, but keep up with this hateful language, and it will soon be followed by hateful actions, and then you won't be able to backpedal away from it. I know deep down, that's not what most of you want, but that's where the buy in to this constant noise ends up, because we've all seen one history documentary, or read one book at least.

I agree that this is a very new issue and also very grateful for a long and balanced post to read. I would add though that I don't know that it's necessarily true that everything was going along as always until 2019 (I'd say the last 5 years so close enough) and then it all changed because of propaganda and radicalisation; there has also been a dramatic and quite rapid shift in gender ideology and "queer theory"/identity politics that - frankly - actually has little if anything to do with trans people as they've existed in women's spaces up to this point.

I genuinely don't believe that trans women - people actually clearly living as women, for whatever reason that may be - are a risk to women. But modern gender ideology has completely jumped the shark and reason/logic/any sort of evidence-based practice has gone completely out the window (e.g. womanhood being purely an ethereal concept and male-presenting people identifying as women = unquestionably valid) and its a safeguarding nightmare.

Also the situation with adolescent girls identifying in larger and larger number as boys (the numbers absolutely DWARF male to female teens) and engaging in things like breast binding, plus associated varying degrees of self harm and poor mental health that's going untreated because it's masked under gender identity issues, is utterly shocking and shameful. It's extreme body dismorphia that's rooted in patriarchy and self-loathing misogyny and it's being normalised as progressive and positive... this is a real problem.

Alongside a myriad of other very complicated, quite separate, issues that there's no point even trying to discuss when everything is oversimplified into one battleground.

BUT yes I largely agree - at this point all of those very real issues have unfortunately been swamped... not just "kinda overshadowed" but completely and utterly swamped... by a culture war that feels oddly pre-planned and, lo and behold, benefits precisely one group of people: blokes. Wealthy White Western blokes to be more specific. Who would have thought.

There is no more pressing concern than the rise and widespread acceptance of right wing pseudo-evangelism and I honestly think from what I can see, it's coming.

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Then we need a 5th for the communists.

You better start protesting then.

[Cherie]

The idea that self ID has not contributed to where we are is just papering over the cracks remember when the silly women pointed out the gaping loophole that predators and opportunists might jump through and were told to run along because it would never happen…, mmm where are we now on that then

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

The arrogance to pretend you knew what women thought about men invading their safe spaces

This you?

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

its always the mum and often when they wanted a girl

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

There obviously can never be "evidence" for any individuals internal overall motivations one way or the other because ultimately they're only known by that person; she may or may not have the over-arching goal of protecting women's spaces. However she courts the alt-right to gain notoriety, funding and a platform and (albeit, just observationally) ... she's just plain starting to sound and look like an alt-righter.

However she courts the alt-right


ok - how

and i hope its not, she gave an interview to X, because if she spoke to the BBC i hope you will also say she courts the hard left?

"guilty by association" does not stand up in any court

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

However she courts the alt-right


ok - how

and i hope its not, she gave an interview to X, because if she spoke to the BBC i hope you will also say she courts the hard left?

"guilty by association" does not stand up in any court

I think if you go on the platform of an open white supremacist who has called for a Canadian, white, ethno-state, then you're on shaky ground.

Not even you believes the bbc is hard left.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

I agree that this is a very new issue and also very grateful for a long and balanced post to read. I would add though that I don't know that it's necessarily true that everything was going along as always until 2019 (I'd say the last 5 years so close enough) and then it all changed because of propaganda and radicalisation; there has also been a dramatic and quite rapid shift in gender ideology and "queer theory"/identity politics that - frankly - actually has little if anything to do with trans people as they've existed in women's spaces up to this point.

I genuinely don't believe that trans women - people actually clearly living as women, for whatever reason that may be - are a risk to women. But modern gender ideology has completely jumped the shark and reason/logic/any sort of evidence-based practice has gone completely out the window (e.g. womanhood being purely an ethereal concept and male-presenting people identifying as women = unquestionably valid) and its a safeguarding nightmare.

Also the situation with adolescent girls identifying in larger and larger number as boys (the numbers absolutely DWARF male to female teens) and engaging in things like breast binding, plus associated varying degrees of self harm and poor mental health that's going untreated because it's masked under gender identity issues, is utterly shocking and shameful. It's extreme body dismorphia that's rooted in patriarchy and self-loathing misogyny and it's being normalised as progressive and positive... this is a real problem.

Alongside a myriad of other very complicated, quite separate, issues that there's no point even trying to discuss when everything is oversimplified into one battleground.

BUT yes I largely agree - at this point all of those very real issues have unfortunately been swamped... not just "kinda overshadowed" but completely and utterly swamped... by a culture war that feels oddly pre-planned and, lo and behold, benefits precisely one group of people: blokes. Wealthy White Western blokes to be more specific. Who would have thought.

There is no more pressing concern than the rise and widespread acceptance of right wing pseudo-evangelism and I honestly think from what I can see, it's coming.

I'm logging off in a few mins, so not really time to write a reply that your post deserves. I'll pick it up at some point tomorrow.

[Soldier Boy]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

However she courts the alt-right


ok - how

and i hope its not, she gave an interview to X, because if she spoke to the BBC i hope you will also say she courts the hard left?

"guilty by association" does not stand up in any court

She evidently and openly accepts support from right-wing individuals with a smile and a wave, it's not particularly subtle. To give one example, she's openly stated regarding Roe vs Wade that women in the US losing abortion rights is an acceptable price to pay if it helps in the gender identity wars. These people are not fighting for women's rights. Again maybe she believes its possible to use these individuals "for the numbers" in her own battles and not ultimately hand power to them. In the long run, but if she does I think she's very wrong.

The idea that the BBC is hard left is daft too. I don't really know what it is at this point.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

She evidently and openly accepts support from right-wing individuals with a smile and a wave, it's not particularly subtle. To give one example, she's openly stated regarding Roe vs Wade that women in the US losing abortion rights is an acceptable price to pay if it helps in the gender identity wars. These people are not fighting for women's rights. Again maybe she believes its possible to use these individuals "for the numbers" in her own battles and not ultimately hand power to them. In the long run, but if she does I think she's very wrong.

The idea that the BBC is hard left is daft too. I don't really know what it is at this point.

by losing abortion rights do you mean more people in a state dont agree with abortion for all and voted accordingly?

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Cherie

The idea that self ID has not contributed to where we are is just papering over the cracks remember when the silly women pointed out the gaping loophole that predators and opportunists might jump through and were told to run along because it would never happen…, mmm where are we now on that then

Omg..Dont mention predators and loopholes when referring to LGBT

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Livia

I find it disturbing and disgusting in equal parts to see people on the far Left referring to people as Nazis. It's old and tired and meaningless.

OMG only just seen this nugget

Who do you think defeated the nazi's?

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Cherie

why not? we make up over 50% of the population ...our voices matter as do transwomen but its not an either or situation...these mobs have nothing to do with trans people...they are women haters

Oh god not the Incel community getting involved.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

Oh god not the Incel community getting involved.

mock you know they watch a lot of manga?

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Omg..Dont mention predators and loopholes when referring to LGBT

Tbf predators are in every community.

But Aliens are only in Liverpool.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

mock you know they watch a lot of manga?

I still don't have to like them.

Unless they like Berserk, then they have a shot at redemption.

[LeatherTrumpet]

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

mock you know they watch a lot of manga?

You can't watch manga, manga are the comics anime is the cartoons.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

You can't watch manga, manga are the comics anime is the cartoons.

I cant be expected to keep up with incel media consumption what with the wokery, gender wars and the SNP implosions

[Livia]

Amazing how some men not only have the answers but are also willing to reel off hundreds of words on the subject. And guess what? Turns out women are overreacting and being "weird". That's what I take away from this thread. Thanks though to the men who see it for what it is: middle aged men dressed up as women using any means necessary to push their agenda... Assaults, death threats, rape threats....

[Soldier Boy]

Originally Posted by Livia

middle aged men dressed up as women using any means necessary to push their agenda... Assaults, death threats, rape threats....

I'd never deny that those people exist, especially "online", but it's a much more complicated issue than that and there is a lot to say . Again my overall stance in pretty clear and I lean closer to TERF than TRA when it comes right down to it but I can also see that Gender ID stuff is a hugely broad ranging topic.

As I said above, most people identifying as the opposite gender (in 2023) are actually NOT middle aged men identifying as women - they're adolescent girls identifying as boys. The reasons for that are complex and very sad. But they're obviously, when it comes down to it, very different issues to address ... so lumping everything into one basket just doesn't work.

[Livia]

I was referring to the men who attacked Posie Parker That's the topic of the thread. Apparently she brought it on herself because she's a Nazi.

The abuse of kids by indoctrinating them with ideology and theory taught as fact is another thread entirely.

[Liam-]

I love the idea that women like this Parker label these sort of events as ‘let women speak’ rallies, which happily include open nazis, Christian extremists and even worse, men! When in reality, all she (and her ilk) want is to be the loudest voices, they only want women (and men) who agree with them to speak, women especially that don’t agree with them and their hateful ideologies get torrents of abuse for not being likeminded bigots, so these ‘worriers of women’s rights’ aren’t really that, they themselves don’t respect and treat all women equally so right from the start the bull**** is very easy to see through.

And yes, she does very blatantly hold hands with the nazis and women hating far right, she doesn’t get hijacked by then, she welcomes them with open arms because at the basis of her belief, she’s a bigot, so fellow bigots are all good and well, even if they hate her at heart as well, as long as they also hate the people she hates too, if you don’t want to be likened to Nazis and far right bigots, don’t happily associate yourself and your ‘cause’ with them, it’s simple as that really I’m afraid.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Liam-

I love the idea that women like this Parker label these sort of events as ‘let women speak’ rallies, which happily include open nazis, Christian extremists and even worse, men! When in reality, all she (and her ilk) want is to be the loudest voices, they only want women (and men) who agree with them to speak, women especially that don’t agree with them and their hateful ideologies get torrents of abuse for not being likeminded bigots, so these ‘worriers of women’s rights’ aren’t really that, they themselves don’t respect and treat all women equally so right from the start the bull**** is very easy to see through.

And yes, she does very blatantly hold hands with the nazis and women hating far right, she doesn’t get hijacked by then, she welcomes them with open arms because at the basis of her belief, she’s a bigot, so fellow bigots are all good and well, even if they hate her at heart as well, as long as they also hate the people she hates too, if you don’t want to be likened to Nazis and far right bigots, don’t happily associate yourself and your ‘cause’ with them, it’s simple as that really I’m afraid.

she is a nazi

she is a bigot

she is a transphobe

=

shut down tactic

shut down tactic

shut down tactic

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Liam-

And yes, she does very blatantly hold hands with the nazis and women hating far right, she doesn’t get hijacked by then, she welcomes them with open arms

Like who? When?

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

To give one example, she's openly stated regarding Roe vs Wade that women in the US losing abortion rights is an acceptable price to pay if it helps in the gender identity wars.

Being against abortion doesn't mean someone can't be left wing or a feminist tbh.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I cant be expected to keep up with incel media consumption what with the wokery, gender wars and the SNP implosions

Seriously checkout Berserk, it's a phenomenal Manga imo.