[Ruth]

Originally posted by Lauren
This may come across as me sounding patronising or something, but I don't know how else to put it without it sounding nicer.

I'm going to assume that both Ruth and Sunny don't have first-hand experience of this issue, as in... their own daughter experiencing it (Allow me to be corrected?), and although I fully accept that we're all allowed our opinions on the subject - to criticise someones decision for what they see fit for their OWN DAUGHTER - is just silly. Perhaps you don't agree with it, perhaps you see it as hypocritical in light of abortion (although sterilisation isn't killing a life!!) but someone isn't going to make a decision for their own daughter that would not benefit her in a way.

Perhaps someone with the mental age of 5 has not made the decision to be sterilised Ruth, but neither has she made the decision to have sex, to have an abortion (which lets face it, is what will have to happen unless it's adopted - also bad for the child). Therefore the lesser of the decisions is to sterilise, and I congratulate sarah for seeing what she see's as best for her daughter despite what other people may think - and also a general kudos for the hard work it must take to look after her children, she doesn't get enough appreciation for it.

(PS. I am in no way attacking others opinions, we're all entitled to them - I just think it's "silly" to say someone is hypocritical when making a decision they see best for their own child).

Who has called someone hypocritical? Certainly not me, and certainly not Sunny.

To be honest, your post did come across as patronising - everyone's opinion is valid whether or not they have personal experience of a situation. I'm not criticising Sarah one iota. What if someone in her position had a child and chose to make a different decision to Sarah? Who would be being 'silly' then?

Finally, this is a forum for serious debate. If people don't want to hear other opinions, then don't start a topic!

Sorry to seem rude, but I don't like being lectured to. I can't be bothered with arguing about it - so I'll say no more.

[Lauren]

"What if someone in her position had a child and chose to make a different decision to Sarah? Who would be being 'silly' then?"

Like I did say - Sarah's decision is made in the best of her daughters interest, and if someone chose to make a different decision - then they're obviously going to do it in the best of their daughters interest too. Neither are silly, they just know whats best for their daughter (regardless of you saying that thats just an excuse to make a decision for someone).

And whats the point in saying "your post did come across as patronising" - I acknowledged and apologised for that because I realised it did when I didn't mean it - so why did you mention it and claim I was lecturing you?
You didn't straight up say "hypocrite" but you said that it's "amazing" how someone can agree with abortion yet not sterilisation - what else could you have meant?

Furthermore, I ALSO mentioned that I was demeaning anyone elses opinions, yet you still picked up and said "Finally, this is a forum for serious debate. If people don't want to hear other opinions, then don't start a topic!"

And like you said, this is a DEBATES FORUM! Yet you then go on to say "I'm not arguing" ... neither am I? I'm just stating my opinion, you disagree, it's a debate.

[Ruth]

To clarify - my comment about abortion/sterilisation obviously hasn't been understood in the way I meant it.

I do have some experience of this issue, although not in the same way that Sarah does. Does that make my opinion more valid? I mean, I know you said everyone's opinion is valid, but when you then call their opinions 'silly' it doesn't really seem like you believe they are valid.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Ruth
To clarify - my comment about abortion/sterilisation obviously hasn't been understood in the way I meant it.

I do have some experience of this issue, although not in the same way that Sarah does. Does that make my opinion more valid? I mean, I know you said everyone's opinion is valid, but when you then call their opinions 'silly' it doesn't really seem like you believe they are valid.

I didn't say the opinion was silly. I meant to discount the fact that sarah will obviously be acting in the best interests of her daughter would be silly. You may not have done that, but if anyone had - that would have been silly. Sarah wouldn't work OUT of the interests of her daughter.

[Ruth]

Originally posted by Lauren
"What if someone in her position had a child and chose to make a different decision to Sarah? Who would be being 'silly' then?"

Like I did say - Sarah's decision is made in the best of her daughters interest, and if someone chose to make a different decision - then they're obviously going to do it in the best of their daughters interest too. Neither are silly, they just know whats best for their daughter (regardless of you saying that thats just an excuse to make a decision for someone).

And whats the point in saying "your post did come across as patronising" - I acknowledged and apologised for that because I realised it did when I didn't mean it - so why did you mention it and claim I was lecturing you?
You didn't straight up say "hypocrite" but you said that it's "amazing" how someone can agree with abortion yet not sterilisation - what else could you have meant?

Maybe ask for clarification of what I meant, before assuming?

Furthermore, I ALSO mentioned that I was demeaning anyone elses opinions, yet you still picked up and said "Finally, this is a forum for serious debate. If people don't want to hear other opinions, then don't start a topic!"

And like you said, this is a DEBATES FORUM! Yet you then go on to say "I'm not arguing" ... neither am I? I'm just stating my opinion, you disagree, it's a debate.

Sure....but I don't recall calling someone else's opinion 'silly'.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Ruth

Sure....but I don't recall calling someone else's opinion 'silly'.

Read my above post before putting words in my mouth.

[Ruth]

Originally posted by Lauren

Read my above post before putting words in my mouth.

And likewise, my post about abortion and sterilisation. You put words into my mouth.

Nobody has suggested that Sarah would not act in the best interests of her daughter. I'm sure her daughters best interests are her top priority - and I do mean that; I am NOT being sarcastic.

Sorry, but I don't like being spoken to like a naughty child. YOu yourself said that your post may come across as patronising. I agreed with you - it did. If I wanted a lecture, I'd go back to college.

Finally - I feel somewhat awkward discussing Sarah's situation when she is not online to speak for herself.

[Lauren]

"Nobody has suggested that Sarah would not act in the best interests of her daughter. I'm sure her daughters best interests are her top priority - and I do mean that; I am NOT being sarcastic."

And again, I said "IF anyone was to suggest this..." I didn't say you had.

I'm stating my opinion just like you are, yet you say I sound like I'm lecturing you and speaking to you like a naughty child. All I'm doing it stating my opinion like everyone else.

[Ruth]

I respect your opinion. But you were patronising - you yourself acknowledged that.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Ruth
I respect your opinion. But you were patronising - you yourself acknowledged that.

No, I acknowledged that it came across as patronising but I didn't mean it to. Why would I purposefully patronise someone?

[Ruth]

I don't know. I don't know you, do I?

[Lauren]

Gosh sorry, I'll have to remember in the future that stating my opinion automatically means I'm belittling someone.

[Ruth]

You wrote:

I'm going to assume that both Ruth and Sunny don't have first-hand experience of this issue, as in... their own daughter experiencing it (Allow me to be corrected?), and although I fully accept that we're all allowed our opinions on the subject - to criticise someones decision for what they see fit for their OWN DAUGHTER - is just silly. Perhaps you don't agree with it, perhaps you see it as hypocritical in light of abortion (although sterilisation isn't killing a life!!) but someone isn't going to make a decision for their own daughter that would not benefit her in a way.

Now, I could be wrong, but that looks to me as though you are reacting to a post made where someone was criticising Sarah's decision. Not a post where you saying "IF someone criticised her decision."

Anyway - I have a day off work and I sure have better things to do than sit here arguing all day - so I'm finished here.

[Ruth]

Originally posted by Lauren
Gosh sorry, I'll have to remember in the future that stating my opinion automatically means I'm belittling someone.

I respect your opinion - and whether or not I agree with it, I would fight for your right to state it. But what's the problem? You said that your post would sound patronising. It did. I agreed with you.

And as I said before, I really have far better ways than this to spend my time. So I really am finished.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Ruth
Not a post where you saying "IF someone criticised her decision."

Originally posted by Lauren
You may not have done that, but if anyone had- that would have been silly.

[Ruth]

Originally posted by Lauren

So why mention Sunny and myself by name? In that post (where you mentioned our names) it definitely read as though you were calling something that one of us said 'silly'. Go back and read it, and you may see what I mean. I'm not referring to the later posts where you said that you hadn't said that. And why would you say something was 'silly' if you did not believe that anyone had even suggested that anyway?

[Lauren]

I said to criticise someone for doing something they see fit for their own child is silly, nothing more nor nothing less?
Thats what the whole debate is about though? Whether sterilisation should take place, and I was simply stating that to suggest someone was working out of their childrens interests was silly. I didn't say someone had said that - but thats the other side of the coin.

[sarahtheangel]

in all honesty the reply you gave back to me ruth was upsetting and yes you appolgised for it . i dont wish to cause any arguments with you or lauren or sunny , i just wanted other peoples opions on the issue unfortunatally i got more than i wanted . i would like to say thank you too lauren for fighting my corner and i will now close the thread. if i new how

[Ruth]

Sarah, I never meant to upset you, and I'm sorry that I did. However, you must have known when you started the thread that you might hear some opinions you wouldn't like? After all, on any given subject it is highly unlikely that everybody will agree.

I don't see what I said that was so upsetting - except for my one post about abortion/sterilisation, which came over harsher than I meant it to, and which was obviously misunderstood by Lauren. Could have been my fault for the way I phrased it.

Only admin or a moderator can close a thread. Maybe they will do so if they see this, or you could u2u them if you want.

[Ruth]

Oh and for what it's worth - despite the implications to the contrary, I never suggested for one second that you might not act in the best interests of your daughters. I would never say that and never think it.

[sarahtheangel]

i dont wish to fall out with anyone on this forum , let alone you ruth so i wont to appolagise and say i should have really thought hard before starting this thread and would aso like to say sorry to the 3 of you if i caused any arguments .

[Sunny_01]

wow all this and I missed it.

Ok for what its worth when this thread was opened it was not made clear that we were debating someone on this forum and their decision, it does make it more personal as we all really care about each other.

Lauren I am aware that you and Ruth have debated this but I have to say in no way, shape or form did either of us say anything that would imply we felt someone was hypocritical. We simply said how we felt about a situation and stated our thoughts. Now not for one minute do I think my view point is the right one, but it is how I feel about the issue. I cant help that my view point is opposed to that of another forum member and their real life situation. I do really care that someone is going through this terrible decision making process.

I think that sometimes we read into things way to much and assume that things are written in a certain way, thats the problem when communicating on a forum, people interpret things in their own way.

I will say that when your post was made Lauren the whole thing appeared to be directed at myself and Ruth, and in fact it was patronising but you acknolwedged that it might come across as that way so no harm no foul.

[sarahtheangel]

i did not make it clear it was about my family , i took this oportunity wth the drama being shown to see what others would think was right or wrong , so sunny are you saying if you had known it was about my family you would have answered me differntly ,

[Sunny_01]

Sarah I would have stood by how I feel about the issue, but I think that if I am honest I would have really thought about how I worded it etc.. had I known it involved you. The last thing anyone wants to do is upset another member, especially when it is something as sensitive as this is.

We can all have our thoughts, feelings about an issue but for you it is intensly personal and as soon as people ctiricised the woman you said that you were in the same position which made it tough for people. Thats the human nature bit of it all, we want to air our views but we want to do them in a way that is least offensive.

[sarahtheangel]

i think your right i instintly took offence how things were worded ,at 1 point i was going to leave the forum . the world we live in is so cruel isnt it we never no what deck of cards we will be handed out .