[kirklancaster]

I have always had a fascination with the paranormal and have always been a gambler, and some of the weirdest examples of 'synchronicity' - coincidence - have occurred during my punting on horses and dogs.

When I was younger, I had just finished reading; 'Morte d'Arthur' by Malory, where I learned that Uther Pendragon was Arthur's father. Later in the afternoon of the same day that I had finished reading the book, I called into the bookies for a few hours betting. it wasn't long before the betting for a Chase race at Chepstow opened and there at 33/1 was a horse called Uther Pendragon.

It was trained by Tim Forster, ridden by Graham Thorner, and it's form figures were dismal; Pulled Up, Pulled Up 0000 Fell, etc. but I couldn't ignore the coincidence and backed it each way. It won at 33/1 but never again won another race.

Another time, I was in the bookies and was reading in the Daily Mail, an item about members of the IRA being arrested just as the betting for a race was issuing from the tannoy. I read the words; 'fell swoop' at the identical seconds the betting commentator said 33/1 "Fell Swoop". Again the horse's form was dismal, but again, I couldn't ignore the coincidence and backed it each way. Again, it won at 33/1 but never again won another race.

There have been many other instances of this weird phenomena in my life - too many to list - but I wonder how many of you have had similar spooky experiences?

[Livia]

That's often happened to me, not involving gambling though. I've sometimes read a word just as it has been spoken or thought about someone I've not thought of for ages and then I see them or hear from them, that kind of thing. I think it's coincidence but if it works for you in a gambling way... maybe you're magical.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I have always had a fascination with the paranormal and have always been a gambler, and some of the weirdest examples of 'synchronicity' - coincidence - have occurred during my punting on horses and dogs.

When I was younger, I had just finished reading; 'Morte d'Arthur' by Malory, where I learned that Uther Pendragon was Arthur's father. Later in the afternoon of the same day that I had finished reading the book, I called into the bookies for a few hours betting. it wasn't long before the betting for a Chase race at Chepstow opened and there at 33/1 was a horse called Uther Pendragon.

It was trained by Tim Forster, ridden by Graham Thorner, and it's form figures were dismal; Pulled Up, Pulled Up 0000 Fell, etc. but I couldn't ignore the coincidence and backed it each way. It won at 33/1 but never again won another race.

Another time, I was in the bookies and was reading in the Daily Mail, an item about members of the IRA being arrested just as the betting for a race was issuing from the tannoy. I read the words; 'fell swoop' at the identical seconds the betting commentator said 33/1 "Fell Swoop". Again the horse's form was dismal, but again, I couldn't ignore the coincidence and backed it each way. Again, it won at 33/1 but never again won another race.

There have been many other instances of this weird phenomena in my life - too many to list - but I wonder how many of you have had similar spooky experiences?

...hmmmm....yeah, that is quite spooky in a way/strange coincidences....


..(my thoughts..)..are that, that sort of thing happens to most of us and quite a lot..?..because of your beliefs, you notice it maybe more than some other people would when it happens...I think for some people, these 'coincidences' just kind of go by and are often hardly noticed just because they're not 'looking for them'...kind of oblivious to them, you know...but they still happen and I think with gambling for instance and if it was horses, I know some people bet on 'form' but I think many also bet on 'instinct' and the type of things that you said...'oh, how strange there is a horse with this name and I was just reading/doing that..'..etc...but how many times was there not a horse connected to something they were doing etc...


..that thought made sense in my head but I'm not sure that it does now.....but yeah, I just think that being attuned to these things, you will connect them because sometimes there will be connections there to make but sometimes there won't....

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I have always had a fascination with the paranormal and have always been a gambler, and some of the weirdest examples of 'synchronicity' - coincidence - have occurred during my punting on horses and dogs.

When I was younger, I had just finished reading; 'Morte d'Arthur' by Malory, where I learned that Uther Pendragon was Arthur's father. Later in the afternoon of the same day that I had finished reading the book, I called into the bookies for a few hours betting. it wasn't long before the betting for a Chase race at Chepstow opened and there at 33/1 was a horse called Uther Pendragon.

It was trained by Tim Forster, ridden by Graham Thorner, and it's form figures were dismal; Pulled Up, Pulled Up 0000 Fell, etc. but I couldn't ignore the coincidence and backed it each way. It won at 33/1 but never again won another race.

Another time, I was in the bookies and was reading in the Daily Mail, an item about members of the IRA being arrested just as the betting for a race was issuing from the tannoy. I read the words; 'fell swoop' at the identical seconds the betting commentator said 33/1 "Fell Swoop". Again the horse's form was dismal, but again, I couldn't ignore the coincidence and backed it each way. Again, it won at 33/1 but never again won another race.

There have been many other instances of this weird phenomena in my life - too many to list - but I wonder how many of you have had similar spooky experiences?

Its not paranormal its called coincidence and they happen to every human many times over in life. Its not spooky either its a bog standard normal part of life.

[GypsyGoth]

I think maybe we just remember some events more than others, I wonder if you so easily recall all the times you lost while betting on a horse's name you felt somehow connected to.

[rubymoo]

On one occasion i woke up with the name Elsie in my head, and all i could think was Elsie all morning.....i took my dog for a walk and there was an elderly lady who looked a bit confused, i asked her if she was ok, and she said she was, but she couldn't remember where her house key was, she eventually found it in a zip compartment in her bag and said "come on Elsie pull yourself together!"

Another occasion i heard a voice say "keep your dog on the lead" as i turned onto a park, i shook it off and in the distance saw a Labrador, i saw no threat and let my dog off.....within 5 minutes the playful puppy like Labrador came bouncing over, my dog started to race around playfully, when to my horror they started to run towards the exit, my little dog was being chased by the Labrador onto a main road, i was screaming and shouting for my dog to come back but she wouldn't listen and off she ran with the Labrador chasing her across the busy road......i waited for the screech of tyres and a squeal of a dog being hit, but thankfully they both escaped unharmed, both myself and the owner of the Lab caught up with our dogs and quickly put them on their leads......i should've listened to that voice!

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Its not paranormal its called coincidence and they happen to every human many times over in life. Its not spooky either its a bog standard normal part of life.

Perhaps I should not have used the word 'spooky' but rather 'weird', but please educate me as to the true meaning of the word 'coincidence'? What is it? and I don't mean the 'label'.

Carl Jung - the discoverer of 'synchronicity' relates how a patient of his had an 'impressive' dream the night before, in which someone offered her a golden scarab – a valuable piece of jewellery. At the precise moment she was relating the dream to Jung, there was a tap on the office window. Jung opened up the window and a scarabaeid beetle, whose gold-green colour closely resembles that of a golden scarab, flew into the room. Jung caught the beetle in his hand and said; “Here is your scarab.”

Is this something than can be categorised as a 'bog standard' normal part of life?

From a scientific point of view; what are the mathematical odds of that particular beetle appearing at Jung's window at the precise moment his patient was relating a dream about such a random subject?

There are well documented examples of synchronicity which transcend 'coincidence'; two complete strangers meeting on a train who lapse into conversation, only to discover that they have the same names, same date of birth, are married to women who have the same Christian name, have the same number of children etc.

We often explain the scientifically inexplicable by trotting out a 'label' which becomes 'accepted' but actually explains nothing. Scientists cannot always provide answers to life's questions, and even when they do, advances in science itself, often teaches us that those scientists got it wrong.

As for the 'Paranormal', what is it? What does it mean? The word simply means; "events that can not readily be explained by "the range of normal experience or scientific explanation.". It is, however, a term which has suffered due to its abuse and misuse by all the charlatans and hoaxers out there, as well as by the slanted, dishonest documentaries and articles by - supposedly impartial, but sceptical authors.

There are millions of ordinary, sane Elvis Presley fans, but one could be forgiven - when watching the average documentary on Elvis - that all his fans are eccentrics, cranks or just plain mentally impaired, because those are mainly the type of fans these programs feature, and it's basically the same with - so called 'documentaries' on the 'paranormal'.

I know how much BS and fakery there is on supposedly 'paranormal' matters, but I am an intelligent, educated man, and I do not accept without question and research, and I know this; that when all the trickery, hoaxing and lies are stripped away, there remains real, hard-core mysteries in life which 'science' cannot explain - some of which I know from personal experience. Thus, I will go on questioning and believing and not being satisfied by words such as 'coincidence'- a word which is meaningless really, and does not address the mystery behind my own personal experiences, even if it wasn't.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

I think maybe we just remember some events more than others, I wonder if you so easily recall all the times you lost while betting on a horse's name you felt somehow connected to.

Truthfully, this has never happened to me. I have - obviously - lost many times when punting, but that's been due to poor selecting or following poor tipsters. The couple of examples I relate in my post have been two of four 'stand out' moments. I have never experienced any other times of pure synchronicity involving gambling - just four which couldn't be ignored and which led to me winning - once which really answered my prayers in the weirdest way when I was in financial trouble .

There have, however, been other examples in my life.

I know the cynics and sceptics say that it's 'coincidence', and that once we are 'alerted' to a name or number or phrase, then we (subconsciously, perhaps) look out for the same, but I'm not referring to what someone else on here referred to as 'bog standard' coincidence. Though I'd like a definition of just what 'coincidence' actually means?

I am known amongst those close to me for my 'intuition'. I cannot explain just what it is, or why it happens, but sometimes, I experience what can only be called ESP. If only I could summon it at will or control it, but I can't. The fact remains that it is real and cannot be explained away by a glib term like 'coincidence'.

A few years ago, I was at a party and surrounded by six girls who I had never met before. One of my friends told them I was 'spooky' and that I could 'read palms' (which I cannot - except in a BS way for making a girl's acquaintance as part of the 'chatting up' process or flirting) and these girls all thrust out their hands. I went into my 'routine' and the first girl was suitably impressed because I managed to hit certain 'targets' with my educated 'guesswork' BS reading. The next girl was an attractive 30 year old and from the moment I took her hand the weirdest thing happened; a film flashed into my mind - 'The Roman Spring of Mrs Stone'; a 1960's film starring Warren Beatty and Vivien Leigh. A scene from the film has Leigh undecided whether to embark on an affair with a younger man or not, and her mother cautions her that; "If you have an affair with him you'll regret it, and if you don't have an affair with him you'll regret it" or words to that effect. Anyway, this phrase kept repeating itself in my mind.

l ended up asking this complete stranger whether she wanted the truth or not, and she said 'yes'. I told her that she had been tormenting herself for a "long time" over whether she should or shouldn't do something highly personal, left it at that, then made an excuse that I was going get a top up drink and left the room with my friend. She followed with one of her friends and asked me what I had meant. Her demeanour had changed but she insisted, so I told her the 'impressions' I had experienced. I said that she was married, and that for some time her husband's best friend had been making advances to her. I added that she wanted to have an affair with him but that she hadn't yet. She was visibly shocked by this and accused her friend of "telling" me - quite an illogical statement considering how I'd never met any of them before; as her friend, who denied "telling me", explained to her. Anyway, this woman ended up confiding in me - a total stranger - that I was 100% correct, and that she couldn't resist her husband's friend, but had not gone all the way yet because she didn't want to hurt her husband who was a "kind caring husband". I told her to watch the Vivien Leigh film.

Could I explain the above incident? - No. Had it happened before? - Yes, but in a different way.

Some people can simply accept that 'life' is accidental, and that there is neither meaning to it, nor purpose, and that death is final. I respect their views but do not agree.

[Kizzy]

You will always encounter closed minds, at some point these messages will be understood and there will be no more scoffing.
The same people who suggest logical explanations are convinced of extra terrestrials for instance... it's not a huge leap of faith between the two in my eyes, the human mind is amazing and we haven't even nearly begun to understand its capabilities.

Deja vu , Synesthesia, hypnosis they are all mysteries, it doesn't mean they don't exist or can be fully rationalised ....at present.

I've had what I prefer to call episodes of intuition or instinct rather than 'coincidence'.
Usually between my daughter and myself, I call her as she goes to pick the phone up to call me, hum a song she's thinking of.. I know if she's ill or upset wherever she is.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Perhaps I should not have used the word 'spooky' but rather 'weird', but please educate me as to the true meaning of the word 'coincidence'? What is it? and I don't mean the 'label'.

Carl Jung - the discoverer of 'synchronicity' relates how a patient of his had an 'impressive' dream the night before, in which someone offered her a golden scarab – a valuable piece of jewellery. At the precise moment she was relating the dream to Jung, there was a tap on the office window. Jung opened up the window and a scarabaeid beetle, whose gold-green colour closely resembles that of a golden scarab, flew into the room. Jung caught the beetle in his hand and said; “Here is your scarab.”

Is this something than can be categorised as a 'bog standard' normal part of life?

From a scientific point of view; what are the mathematical odds of that particular beetle appearing at Jung's window at the precise moment his patient was relating a dream about such a random subject?

There are well documented examples of synchronicity which transcend 'coincidence'; two complete strangers meeting on a train who lapse into conversation, only to discover that they have the same names, same date of birth, are married to women who have the same Christian name, have the same number of children etc.

We often explain the scientifically inexplicable by trotting out a 'label' which becomes 'accepted' but actually explains nothing. Scientists cannot always provide answers to life's questions, and even when they do, advances in science itself, often teaches us that those scientists got it wrong.

As for the 'Paranormal', what is it? What does it mean? The word simply means; "events that can not readily be explained by "the range of normal experience or scientific explanation.". It is, however, a term which has suffered due to its abuse and misuse by all the charlatans and hoaxers out there, as well as by the slanted, dishonest documentaries and articles by - supposedly impartial, but sceptical authors.

There are millions of ordinary, sane Elvis Presley fans, but one could be forgiven - when watching the average documentary on Elvis - that all his fans are eccentrics, cranks or just plain mentally impaired, because those are mainly the type of fans these programs feature, and it's basically the same with - so called 'documentaries' on the 'paranormal'.

I know how much BS and fakery there is on supposedly 'paranormal' matters, but I am an intelligent, educated man, and I do not accept without question and research, and I know this; that when all the trickery, hoaxing and lies are stripped away, there remains real, hard-core mysteries in life which 'science' cannot explain - some of which I know from personal experience. Thus, I will go on questioning and believing and not being satisfied by words such as 'coincidence'- a word which is meaningless really, and does not address the mystery behind my own personal experiences, even if it wasn't.

Its just coincidence, you are failing to understand the countless possibilities for coincidence to happen in every aspect of our day and the fact (as GG stated) that humans end to recall only things they wish to and put importance on (hence the reason vile mediums and the like flourish)

All you are really doing is creating aspects of your life and attaching special meaning to make yourself appear more desirable to feed the basic human instinct to be liked. We all do this.


Statistically coincidences are inevitable and often less remarkable than they may appear intuitively. Take the birthday problem, where the probability of two individuals sharing a birthday already exceeds 50% with a group of only 23 people.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

You will always encounter closed minds, at some point these messages will be understood and there will be no more scoffing.
The same people who suggest logical explanations are convinced of extra terrestrials for instance... it's not a huge leap of faith between the two in my eyes, the human mind is amazing and we haven't even nearly begun to understand its capabilities.

Deja vu , Synesthesia, hypnosis they are all mysteries, it doesn't mean they don't exist or can be fully rationalised ....at present.

I've had what I prefer to call episodes of intuition or instinct rather than 'coincidence'.
Usually between my daughter and myself, I call her as she goes to pick the phone up to call me, hum a song she's thinking of.. I know if she's ill or upset wherever she is.

Me too Kizzy - with my children, and exactly the same examples which you point out with your daughter.

[Kizzy]

We must be more at one with the universe... maybe we're aliens?
What can we expect from these mere mortals, let them be.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Its just coincidence, you are failing to understand the countless possibilities for coincidence to happen in every aspect of our day and the fact (as GG stated) that humans end to recall only things they wish to and put importance on (hence the reason vile mediums and the like flourish)

All you are really doing is creating aspects of your life and attaching special meaning to make yourself appear more desirable to feed the basic human instinct to be liked. We all do this.


Statistically coincidences are inevitable and often less remarkable than they may appear intuitively. Take the birthday problem, where the probability of two individuals sharing a birthday already exceeds 50% with a group of only 23 people.

Respectfully, I think you are over-simplifying a very real and complex phenomena, and I do not understand the section I have emboldened, for I am at an age where "being liked" is of no consequence. I posted on this subject because I wanted to, both, elicit other forum members viewpoints, and also discover if any had experienced similar synchronicity in their lives.

I agree that statistical 'coincidences' are inevitable in certain given circumstances, but the synchronicity I am referring to transcends ordinary accepted 'coincidence'.

Please apply your logic to the following - again - perfectly true incident; concerning another of the 4 sole synchronistic incidents in my life involving gambling;

I was very young and working 'continental' shifts at a local factory as a Quality Control Inspector - a 'staff' position. At this particular time - 1980 - I was on night duty, the best shift for Quality Control staff because it afforded lots of spare time which was invariably spent in the office reading.

I started my shift, went into the empty office to dump my 'stuff' on the desk and there on the desktop was a magazine left by the day shift QC inspector, whose name I shall come to shortly. The magazine was left open at a double page spread about Ben Nevis, the mountain in Scotland.

I did my 'rounds' then went back into the office, where I moved the magazine out of the way, put my copy of the 'Sporting Life', in its place', poured myself a coffee, lit a cigarette, then started to read.

I soon came to a feature with the advance entries for the forthcoming Grand National steeplechase at Aintree which was still some weeks away, and my eye was drawn to a horse called Ben Nevis.

During the next couple of weeks, I could not escape that name; my next door neighbour - a keen keep fit enthusiast - announced that he was going on a holiday to Scotland, to Fort William which would take in "walking up Ben Nevis", my older sister won some caramels or toffee at a charity bash which just happened to have a photo of Ben Nevis decorating the lid, and a Writers Circle meeting which I attended were discussing Compton Mckenzie's works - notably, his Highland Novels, some featuring Ben Nevis.

As soon as the betting for the Grand National opened, I started placing 'each way' bets on Ben Nevis at 40/1.

The horse won and I won a tidy sum.

Now, to the name of the day shift Quality Control Inspector who had left the magazine that - fateful - night? It was a very studious, outdoor type of guy who had no interest in horse racing or gambling and who would not know a chase from a flat race, and his name was Charles Fenwick. The name of the American jockey who rode Ben Nevis to Grand National glory? Charlie Fenwick!

The above is true and can all be corroborated.

I cannot accept this as 'bog standard' 'coincidence'.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Respectfully, I think you are over-simplifying a very real and complex phenomena, and I do not understand the section I have emboldened, for I am at an age where "being liked" is of no consequence. I posted on this subject because I wanted to, both, elicit other forum members viewpoints, and also discover if any had experienced similar synchronicity in their lives.

I agree that statistical 'coincidences' are inevitable in certain given circumstances, but the synchronicity I am referring to transcends ordinary accepted 'coincidence'.

Please apply your logic to the following - again - perfectly true incident; concerning another of the 4 sole synchronistic incidents in my life involving gambling;

I was very young and working 'continental' shifts at a local factory as a Quality Control Inspector - a 'staff' position. At this particular time - 1980 - I was on night duty, the best shift for Quality Control staff because it afforded lots of spare time which was invariably spent in the office reading.

I started my shift, went into the empty office to dump my 'stuff' on the desk and there on the desktop was a magazine left by the day shift QC inspector, whose name I shall come to shortly. The magazine was left open at a double page spread about Ben Nevis, the mountain in Scotland.

I did my 'rounds' then went back into the office, where I moved the magazine out of the way, put my copy of the 'Sporting Life', in its place', poured myself a coffee, lit a cigarette, then started to read.

I soon came to a feature with the advance entries for the forthcoming Grand National steeplechase at Aintree which was still some weeks away, and my eye was drawn to a horse called Ben Nevis.

During the next couple of weeks, I could not escape that name; my next door neighbour - a keen keep fit enthusiast - announced that he was going on a holiday to Scotland, to Fort William which would take in "walking up Ben Nevis", my older sister won some caramels or toffee at a charity bash which just happened to have a photo of Ben Nevis decorating the lid, and a Writers Circle meeting which I attended were discussing Compton Mckenzie's works - notably, his Highland Novels, some featuring Ben Nevis.

As soon as the betting for the Grand National opened, I started placing 'each way' bets on Ben Nevis at 40/1.

The horse won and I won a tidy sum.

Now, to the name of the day shift Quality Control Inspector who had left the magazine that - fateful - night? It was a very studious, outdoor type of guy who had no interest in horse racing or gambling and who would not know a chase from a flat race, and his name was Charles Fenwick. The name of the American jockey who rode Ben Nevis to Grand National glory? Charlie Fenwick!

The above is true and can all be corroborated.

I cannot accept this as 'bog standard' 'coincidence'.

I think you just have a bit of a gambling issue and a fanciful imagination

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I think you just have a bit of a gambling issue and a fanciful imagination

And I think that you have taken the route of others before you who cannot answer points made in an adult debate, so resort to cheap personal insults.

I hardly gamble any more, just as I don't go 'clubbing' any more, because I am older, so I have no 'gambling issues', and as for a 'fanciful imagination', that is akin to calling me insane or a liar - and I am neither.

You amuse me.

As stated, I do not gamble so much these days, but I will wager any amount you should choose that I can prove what I have written by giving names and dates and producing corroborative statements from those witnesses who were at hand during the events which I have related.

I will also have a friendly wager that you are a nihilist, a member of The Flat Earth Society, and that you do not believe in God and therefore 'Divine Right' but still believe in the Monarchy, and do not believe in Jesus Christ but still celebrate Christmas.

As I said, you amuse me.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

And I think that you have taken the route of others before you who cannot answer points made in an adult debate, so resort to cheap personal insults.

I hardly gamble any more, just as I don't go 'clubbing' any more, because I am older, so I have no 'gambling issues', and as for a 'fanciful imagination', that is akin to calling me insane or a liar - and I am neither.

You amuse me.

As stated, I do not gamble so much these days, but I will wager any amount you should choose that I can prove what I have written by giving names and dates and producing corroborative statements from those witnesses who were at hand during the events which I have related.

I will also have a friendly wager that you are a nihilist, a member of The Flat Earth Society, and that you do not believe in God and therefore 'Divine Right' but still believe in the Monarchy, and do not believe in Jesus Christ but still celebrate Christmas.

As I said, you amuse me.

There is very little to debate over alleged personal claims and pseudo science I am afraid

And Christmas was around before Christianity adopted it

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

There is very little to debate over alleged personal claims and pseudo science I am afraid

And Christmas was around before Christianity adopted it

"Christmas was around before Christianity adopted it"???? Do you mean that a pagan festival in December was around before Christianity adopted it? Christmas or Christ's Mass means a celebration of Christ's birthday and although the actual date on which we celebrate is not accurate and has pagan and secular origins, a celebration of Christ's birthday, is just that; a celebration of Christ's birthday - as distinct from a celebration of the actual time of year.

You will be telling me next that the Shroud of Turin was manufactured by Da Vinci - even though it was in existence 300 years before he was born.

As for; "alleged personal claims..." my claims are substantiated by hard corroborating evidence from eye-witnesses and contemporaries, some of who do not believe in anything 'paranormal' but cannot deny what they did witness as fact. Truthful people in other words.

"Pseudo science"? I don't really understand. Oh you mean pseudo science as in George Zweigt's 1964 proposal for the existence of 'quarks' - the subatomic particles that combine to form all matter? The theory which saw him ridiculed and branded a 'charlatan' by the Scientific Establishment? The very same Establishment which just 5 years later embraced the award of the Nobel prize in Physics to one of Zweigt's contemporaries for the identical theory?

Or Ludwig Boltzmann who was so ridiculed and ostracised for his proposal to that atoms existed, that he hung himself?

There are numerous other examples of pseudo science becoming accepted science.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

"Christmas was around before Christianity adopted it"???? Do you mean that a pagan festival in December was around before Christianity adopted it? Christmas or Christ's Mass means a celebration of Christ's birthday and although the actual date on which we celebrate is not accurate and has pagan and secular origins, a celebration of Christ's birthday, is just that; a celebration of Christ's birthday - as distinct from a celebration of the actual time of year.

You will be telling me next that the Shroud of Turin was manufactured by Da Vinci - even though it was in existence 300 years before he was born.

As for; "alleged personal claims..." my claims are substantiated by hard corroborating evidence from eye-witnesses and contemporaries, some of who do not believe in anything 'paranormal' but cannot deny what they did witness as fact. Truthful people in other words.

"Pseudo science"? I don't really understand. Oh you mean pseudo science as in George Zweigt's 1964 proposal for the existence of 'quarks' - the subatomic particles that combine to form all matter? The theory which saw him ridiculed and branded a 'charlatan' by the Scientific Establishment? The very same Establishment which just 5 years later embraced the award of the Nobel prize in Physics to one of Zweigt's contemporaries for the identical theory?

Or Ludwig Boltzmann who was so ridiculed and ostracised for his proposal to that atoms existed, that he hung himself?

There are numerous other examples of pseudo science becoming accepted science.

tbf though Christmas has evolved into something different for alot of people, a time to spend time with their family, give and receive presents, eat and drink lots etc I get almost 2 weeks holidays from work at that time of year because where I work closes, I'm not religious, I'm also not a moron so I'm not going to stop doing something I enjoy just cause I stole it from the Christians

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

"Christmas was around before Christianity adopted it"???? Do you mean that a pagan festival in December was around before Christianity adopted it? Christmas or Christ's Mass means a celebration of Christ's birthday and although the actual date on which we celebrate is not accurate and has pagan and secular origins, a celebration of Christ's birthday, is just that; a celebration of Christ's birthday - as distinct from a celebration of the actual time of year.

You will be telling me next that the Shroud of Turin was manufactured by Da Vinci - even though it was in existence 300 years before he was born.

As for; "alleged personal claims..." my claims are substantiated by hard corroborating evidence from eye-witnesses and contemporaries, some of who do not believe in anything 'paranormal' but cannot deny what they did witness as fact. Truthful people in other words.

"Pseudo science"? I don't really understand. Oh you mean pseudo science as in George Zweigt's 1964 proposal for the existence of 'quarks' - the subatomic particles that combine to form all matter? The theory which saw him ridiculed and branded a 'charlatan' by the Scientific Establishment? The very same Establishment which just 5 years later embraced the award of the Nobel prize in Physics to one of Zweigt's contemporaries for the identical theory?

Or Ludwig Boltzmann who was so ridiculed and ostracised for his proposal to that atoms existed, that he hung himself?

There are numerous other examples of pseudo science becoming accepted science.

Christmas is not a celebration of anyone's birthday. Its about Santa, trees, winter and giving presents all of which are pagan in origin.

religion has thankfully jack all to do with Christmas apart from a few drunks going to a service to sing carols




As for; "alleged personal claims..." my claims are substantiated by hard corroborating evidence from eye-witnesses and contemporaries, some of who do not believe in anything 'paranormal' but cannot deny what they did witness as fact. Truthful people in other words.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

tbf though Christmas has evolved into something different for alot of people, a time to spend time with their family, give and receive presents, eat and drink lots etc I get almost 2 weeks holidays from work at that time of year because where I work closes, I'm not religious, I'm also not a moron so I'm not going to stop doing something I enjoy just cause I stole it from the Christians

I'd never advocate anyone not enjoying Christmas Niamh, whether they are religious or not - my point about it was in specific response to LeatherTrumpet's quite aggressive and offensive post. I'm no Bible-Thumping Evangelist. I live a normal life, curse, shag, eat meat on Fridays and have broken my share of the 10 Commandments in my time, but I also happen to believe in God and in elements of the paranormal, have courage in my convictions, and will defend myself when personally attacked.

[Niamh.]

Back on topic please

[LeatherTrumpet]

Now that was an expected coincidence...

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Now that was an expected coincidence...

Too cryptic??? What was?

In fact, let me propose that we end this like Gentlemen and agree to disagree.

Finis.