[Denver]

A transgender woman who told her friends she would kill herself if she was sent to a male prison has been found dead in jail.

Vicky Thompson, 21, was being held at Armley, Leeds, where she was pronounced dead on Friday.

Friends of Ms Thompson, who was born male but had identified as female since her mid-teens, said she had asked to be sent to a female prison.

An investigation into her death has been launched, the Prison Service said.

Ms Thompson, from Keighley, West Yorkshire, was handed a 12-month jail term in August which was suspended for 24 months.

The BBC understands she later breached the terms of the sentence, and was remanded in custody at Bradford Crown Court.

Her solicitor, Mohammed Hussain, said he had advised the judge she was "essentially a woman" and asked for her to be sent to New Hall women's prison, near Wakefield.

He said he also asked for any sentence to be reduced if it was decided Ms Thompson would be sent to an all-male prison.

Mr Hussain described Ms Thompson, who had not undergone gender reassignment surgery, as a vulnerable transgender person.

The issue of sentencing transgender prisoners was raised last month, after Tara Hudson was initially sent to an all-male prison.

She was later*transferred to a female jail*after a campaign calling for her to be moved.

Alex Kaye, from SafeT, which represents transgender people, said he hoped Ms Thompson's death would bring about a change in the law.

"Any woman would not be happy to be in a male prison regardless of any gender identity history," he said.

Transgender prison rules Prisoners should be placed according to their gender "as recognised by UK law" - usually as stated on their birth certificateIf a person has obtained a "gender recognition certificate", they will have a new birth certificate in their "acquired gender"Prisoners who obtain a gender recognition certificate while in prison "should in most cases be transferred to the estate of their acquired gender"But the rules also say some transgender people will be "sufficiently advanced in the gender reassignment process" that they could be placed "in the estate of their acquired gender, even if the law does not yet recognise they are of their acquired gender"Where issues arise, a "case conference" should be held to "review the prisoner's individual circumstances and make a recommendation"

Source:*The Care and Management of Transsexual Prisoners, Ministry of Justice website

Ms Thompson's boyfriend, Robert Steele, said he had spoken to her a day before and had booked a visit to the prison before her death.

"She didn't like it in there because people were saying things to her because she was dressing as a female," he said.

A Prison Service spokesperson said: "HMP Leeds prisoner Vicky Thompson was found unresponsive on the evening of Friday, 13 November.

"Staff and paramedics attempted resuscitation but she was pronounced dead at 20:48 GMT.

"As with all deaths in custody there will be an investigation by the independent Prisons and Probation Ombudsman".

West Yorkshire Police said Ms Thompson's death was not being treated as suspicious.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-34869620

[Marsh.]

To be fair, that is a grey area.

Someone who has legally changed their sex/gender or had reassignment surgery it is relatively simple to treat them as their assigned/preferred gender.

Someone who simply chooses to wear clothes traditionally worn by another gender shouldn't warrant moving to a different prison. Opens the floodgates for anybody to say "I'm not legally this nor made any actual changes but I would like...." It's a farce tbh.

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

To be fair, that is a grey area.

Someone who has legally changed their sex/gender or had reassignment surgery it is relatively simple to treat them as their assigned/preferred gender.

Someone who simply chooses to wear clothes traditionally worn by another gender shouldn't warrant moving to a different prison. Opens the floodgates for anybody to say "I'm not legally this nor made any actual changes but I would like...." It's a farce tbh.

.

[Marsh.]

Yeah, I sound a little heartless there. You know, heartbreaking for the person who this happened to and tragic but, yeah.

[Samm]

RIP

[LeatherTrumpet]

what was she in for?

[Locke.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

what was she in for?

Something that would be mentioned in the article the other 99.99% of the time. Very odd that it isn't here.

[Kizzy]

Really surprised that following the other transgender female transferred she wasn't.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Really surprised that following the other transgender female transferred she wasn't.

If we transferred people for their whims the system would be in a worse state than it is.

[JoshBB]

RIP.

Regardless of their crime, they should serve their time fairly in the correct gendered prison. It's utterly ridiculous that someone should be put in a male prison when they so clearly identify as a woman. Forget the legal nonsense, it's not like she kept silent and suddenly decided to kill herself in prison.. this is something that has undoubtedly been brought up repeatedly yet ignored despite the clear mental health risks and discrimination involved with this.

Just wrong. I'm not going to go along with the whole "respect the law! she broke it, tough luck!!" mentality. Truly respecting the law would be to punish those who break it properly, by sentencing them correctly.

[Vanessa]

[Denver]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

RIP.

Regardless of their crime, they should serve their time fairly in the correct gendered prison. It's utterly ridiculous that someone should be put in a male prison when they so clearly identify as a woman. Forget the legal nonsense, it's not like she kept silent and suddenly decided to kill herself in prison.. this is something that has undoubtedly been brought up repeatedly yet ignored despite the clear mental health risks and discrimination involved with this.

Just wrong. I'm not going to go along with the whole "respect the law! she broke it, tough luck!!" mentality. Truly respecting the law would be to punish those who break it properly, by sentencing them correctly.

She had not undergone surgery so still a man in the eyes of the law

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

this is something that has undoubtedly been brought up repeatedly yet ignored despite the clear mental health risks and discrimination involved with this.

How do you know it's been brought up repeatedly?

According to the article she broke the rules of her sentence too, so if she wanted respect you'd think she'd do the same.

[JoshBB]

Originally Posted by Adam.

She had not undergone surgery so still a man in the eyes of the law

Oh give me a break. She is CLEARLY identifying as a woman, and she even said that if she went to a male prison she would commit suicide. Why on earth did they ignore this and send her there anyway??

The legal status should have been sorted out BEFORE sending her into an environment she would be attacked, harrassed, and experience poor mental health - and suicide, the unfortunate end result.

Originally Posted by Marsh.

How do you know it's been brought up repeatedly?

According to the article she broke the rules of her sentence too, so if she wanted respect you'd think she'd do the same.

Well, we know that she said that she would kill herself if sent to a male prison - so we can logically make the assumption that she was not sent there without concern raised. And regarding your last statement, mental health of prisoners is important regardless of crimes committed.. and though she may have broken the rules of her sentence (I must have flicked past that), she is still a human being - and with transgender people, they face a lot of discrimination and why the hell she was sent there I want to know. The people responsible should be sacked or worse.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

If we transferred people for their whims the system would be in a worse state than it is.

Hang on, I didn't suggest that...however it shouldn't be one rule for one due to a little media attention and another for everyone else.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Hang on, I didn't suggest that...however it shouldn't be one rule for one due to a little media attention and another for everyone else.

I never said that's what you suggested.

It wasn't one rule for one, they were both sent to male prisons.

[Denver]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

Oh give me a break. She is CLEARLY identifying as a woman, and she even said that if she went to a male prison she would commit suicide. Why on earth did they ignore this and send her there anyway??

The legal status should have been sorted out BEFORE sending her into an environment she would be attacked, harrassed, and experience poor mental health - and suicide, the unfortunate end result.



Well, we know that she said that she would kill herself if sent to a male prison - so we can logically make the assumption that she was not sent there without concern raised. And regarding your last statement, mental health of prisoners is important regardless of crimes committed.. and though she may have broken the rules of her sentence (I must have flicked past that), she is still a human being - and with transgender people, they face a lot of discrimination and why the hell she was sent there I want to know. The people responsible should be sacked or worse.

Whether she identified as a girl or if she took no steps to change her body into a female body how can she being treated like a women? Female prison would be up in arms over it

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

Well, we know that she said that she would kill herself if sent to a male prison - so we can logically make the assumption that she was not sent there without concern raised. And regarding your last statement, mental health of prisoners is important regardless of crimes committed.. and though she may have broken the rules of her sentence (I must have flicked past that), she is still a human being - and with transgender people, they face a lot of discrimination and why the hell she was sent there I want to know. The people responsible should be sacked or worse.

Yeah, people are discriminated against for many reasons, especially in a prison environment, transgendered or not.

If people could be taken to a separate prison based on their "differences" it would be one prison per person.

As it is, this prisoner was male and therefore in a male prison.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

I never said that's what you suggested.

It wasn't one rule for one, they were both sent to male prisons.

When did I say people should be transferred on a whim then?...

I am aware they were both sent to male prisons too, and yet one was transferred... either they all are or none, it shouldn't be a lottery.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

When did I say people should be transferred on a whim then?...

I am aware they were both sent to male prisons too, and yet one was transferred... either they all are or none, it shouldn't be a lottery.

Yes. And anyone who says they're a monkey should be transferred to a zoo too.

I never said you did. I'm calling it a whim.

[bitontheslide]

the prison service evaluates the suitability of a prison for each and every prisoner when they are first assigned. This applies to every single person and takes into account personal circumstances.

Why make a system less flexible than it already is, it doesn't make sense.

[JoshBB]

Originally Posted by Adam.

Whether she identified as a girl or if she took no steps to change her body into a female body how can she being treated like a women? Female prison would be up in arms over it

Forced sex reassignment? No. That would be a huge step backwards, and not only that but it would be a huge breach of human & transgender rights.

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Yeah, people are discriminated against for many reasons, especially in a prison environment, transgendered or not.

If people could be taken to a separate prison based on their "differences" it would be one prison per person.

As it is, this prisoner was male and therefore in a male prison.

We are talking gender here. The UK officially recognises two, and so we are not having a 'one prison per person' type situation here. That is quite an exaggeration.

People are discriminated in prison for a number of reasons. I agree with you. We need to prevent that - and one of the ways we can do this is to place prisoners in the correct prisons so they can at least feel comfortable with their own body & self-esteem, I don't doubt issues with prejudice & harassment will still arise but it would be much worse with her in a male prison.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

We are talking gender here. The UK officially recognises two, and so we are not having a 'one prison per person' type situation here. That is quite an exaggeration.

Not really. He "says" he's woman but his legal status is that of a man.

If they were serious you'd think they'd have taken steps to be recognised as their chosen gender? No.

If it was a case of wanting a different name, you wouldn't expect to be officially recognised by your chosen nickname in any court/prison/legal matter unless you'd taken steps to officially change the name on your records?

In a perfect world we could take people at face value, but then that opens up a can of worms that's difficult to close.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Adam.

She had not undergone surgery so still a man in the eyes of the law

Yes but she was a woman in her own eyes. 21 is still very young to have gone through surgery; that doesn't mean she wasn't on female hormones and attending all the counselling required before being considered for reassignment surgery.

We have a family friend who is pre-op transgender, female to male. he's had all the hormones and so he's lost the hips, grown a beard and now speaks with a deeper voice. He straps his still female breasts down and there is no way you would know that he was anything other than a bloke unless he took his clothes off. You couldn't and shouldn't send someone like him to a female prison if he committed a crime...he's a man!

This is just so, so wrong.
R.I.P. Vicky Thompson, you didn't deserve this.

[JoshBB]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Not really. He "says" he's woman but his legal status is that of a man.

If they were serious you'd think they'd have taken steps to be recognised as their chosen gender? No.

If it was a case of wanting a different name, you wouldn't expect to be officially recognised by your chosen nickname in any court/prison/legal matter unless you'd taken steps to officially change the name on your records?

In a perfect world we could take people at face value, but then that opens up a can of worms that's difficult to close.

She says she is a woman, and the legal status clearly needs changing. We can't just stick our heads in the sand and ignore their clear gender identity for the sake of what's written on paper. You seem to care more for the logistics of things than the people actually involved. I recognise that we cannot assume a gender and that we must seek their legal recognition. But when it has been brought up that said document is wrong, we must correct it before putting someone into an environment where they will not be comfortable.