[DemolitionRed]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...abused-7340086

When people start believing that whole cultural groups are inherently evil, then THIS is what can happen.

That poor old man. Respect to his friends and family.

[Nicky91]

well there is really no respect for elderly


and also i hope he gets life in prison

[Ammi]

When people start believing that whole cultural groups are inherently evil, then THIS is what can happen


...surely this murder is not about a belief of whole cultural groups, it's more personal and specific of a belief in grooming...Mr Robertson said Jones had become agitated, violent and aggressive due to an issue concerning his partner's son's father....Jones may be a racist/hold racist views but that's not the reason for him targeting Mushin Ahmed...

[Ammi]

....hmmm, maybe I've interpreted that article wrong..(it is the Daily Mirror..)...but it reads to me that Mushin's faith wasn't why this lunatic killed him but what in his head, he believed him to be and that he would have equally acted in the same way, had they have not been a Muslim...(him being racist being a separate issue/but kept in perspective also..)...?...

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Ammi

When people start believing that whole cultural groups are inherently evil, then THIS is what can happen


...surely this murder is not about a belief of whole cultural groups, it's more personal and specific of a belief in grooming...Mr Robertson said Jones had become agitated, violent and aggressive due to an issue concerning his partner's son's father....Jones may be a racist/hold racist views but that's not the reason for him targeting Mushin Ahmed...

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...abused-7340086

When people start believing that whole cultural groups are inherently evil, then THIS is what can happen.

That poor old man. Respect to his friends and family.

This is tragic and enraging, and these pair of cowards should be jailed for the rest of their natural lives, but this is quite simply just a case of a pair of evil, twisted, racist misfits venting their rage at targets who they have made scapegoats for their own pathetic inadequacies, and they would have killed this poor innocent pensioner - or some other poor Asian victim - sooner or later, even if a total media embargo on reporting adverse news concerning Muslims/Asians/Foreigners/Immigrants was in force.

Thankfully, no such embargo is in force, because Muslims/Asians / Foreigners/Immigrantsit ARE currently responsible for some of the most heinious crimes being committed in this country, as well as responsible for other more ordinary crimes in sheer volume, and NO ONE should resort to not reporting crime simply because of the nationality or colour of the perpetrators of such crimes, or because of the fear that some twisted psycopath may use such news as an excuse to commit a murder which they would ultimately commit anyway at some stage.

[Tom4784]

I agree with everything you said, Red.

I hope these bastards face the full extent of the law.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

....hmmm, maybe I've interpreted that article wrong..(it is the Daily Mirror..)...but it reads to me that Mushin's faith wasn't why this lunatic killed him but what in his head, he believed him to be and that he would have equally acted in the same way, had they have not been a Muslim...(him being racist being a separate issue/but kept in perspective also..)...?...

A short time before the fatal attack, Jones racially abused an Asian taxi driver, the jury was told.

Mr Robertson said: "There was an incident of blatant aggression by Jones that demonstrated his racist attitude.

"A taxi driver came down Doncaster Road.

The driver was Asian. Jones began shouting racial abuse."

Around 10 minutes later, Mr Ahmed emerged on to Doncaster Road, where Jones was with Hunt and brothers Kieran and Shane Rice.

Mr Robertson said: "Jones immediately accused him of being a groomer.

"No doubt his word for paedophile and no doubt an accusation made by Jones for no better reason than Mr Ahmed was Asian."

r Robertson said Jones saw a friend around an hour after the attack.

When the friend asked how he was, he replied: "It's a good job you're not a ****."

The barrister said: "A good indication of what motivated him to attack Mr Ahmed and a good indicator of how he felt about it."

I see nothing at all to suggest he would have reacted the same way had he not been Muslim, what did you see?

[Ammi]

..I see the same as everyone else sees, I see two men who have brutally murdered an old man on his way to prayer...I see an ongoing trial which hopefully will establish whether that murder was the result of racism only/of a hate of race or whether a thought of grooming as well...either way, these are two men who have brutally murdered someone and I hope get the full sentencing for that but that's all they are, two men and not representive of...'people believing that whole cultural groups are inherently evil', which is a perspective that should be apparent ..and no indication that they're 'extremists' either in the context used...(all murderers are extremists/they've committed an extreme act..)...

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I see the same as everyone else sees, I see two men who have brutally murdered an old man on his way to prayer...I see an ongoing trial which hopefully will establish whether that murder was the result of racism only/of a hate of race or whether a thought of grooming as well...either way, these are two men who have brutally murdered someone and I hope get the full sentencing for that but that's all they are, two men and not representive of...'people believing that whole cultural groups are inherently evil', which is a perspective that should be apparent ..and no indication that they're 'extremists' either in the context used...(all murderers are extremists/they've committed an extreme act..)...

You don't see the same as DR, dezzy or myself, the OP suggests a belief that a culture is evil it may illicit this response, and it did exactly that.
There was nothing to suggest Mr Ahmed is or was a 'groomer' it was a targeted attack based solely on perceived cultural differences.
You're right though when people behave like this they're less extremist and more terrorist.

[arista]

[Jones, 29, and Hunt, 29, of Doncaster Road, Rotherham, both deny murder and are expected to blame each other, the court heard.

The trial continues.]


Evil Punks

[Ammi]

..even if it is established in court that this was a purely racist murder then it still doesn't make it anything more than an isolated act of two hate filled/racist men not indicative of anything more...much the same way as isolated non-terrorist incidents of hatefilled people screaming This is for Syria before slitting a non Muslim throat or any other such the like hate-filled isolated incidents...you may call terrorist and add to the hate/fuel it but I do not, I take these racist incidents, which sadly there has always been and probably always will be, as completely isolated in what they are...


..just directly to the OP herself, I know how passionately you feel about media slants and potentially 'inciting' etc and I do understand any outrage/passion of feelings about this murder, I really do...but I think there is a danger of people becoming 'alarmist' also in 'kneejerk', which would have a very counter-productive effect and the media would then be manipulating us as well...

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by arista

[Jones, 29, and Hunt, 29, of Doncaster Road, Rotherham, both deny murder and are expected to blame each other, the court heard.

The trial continues.]


Evil Punks

...'friends in hate', enemies in self preservation, eh...

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..even if it is established in court that this was a purely racist murder then it still doesn't make it anything more than an isolated act of two hate filled/racist men not indicative of anything more...much the same way as isolated non-terrorist incidents of hatefilled people screaming This is for Syria before slitting a non Muslim throat or any other such the like hate-filled isolated incidents...you may call terrorist and add to the hate/fuel it but I do not, I take these racist incidents, which sadly there has always been and probably always will be, as completely isolated in what they are...


..just directly to the OP herself, I know how passionately you feel about media slants and potentially 'inciting' etc and I do understand any outrage/passion of feelings about this murder, I really do...but I think there is a danger of people becoming 'alarmist' also in 'kneejerk', which would have a very counter-productive effect and the media would then be manipulating us as well...

Is this a suggestion these acts (bolded) can't be considered extremist or terrorist either?

An increase in attacks is worthy of discussion without being considered alarmist, why would reportage of attacks be counter productive?
I'd worry suppression of that information would be manipulative.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...-paris-attacks

[Toy Soldier]

You can't take racially motivated attacks as being entirely isolated, Ammi. You just... Can't. Social prejudices are what lead to, or are at least huge contributing factors, in these attacks. Ignoring that is flat out dangerous.

[bitontheslide]

you can't determine trends from one small groups actions though, which is what is being implied to me anyway. I don't believe the average joe would go out and murder someone, no matter the circumstances, so trying to draw conclusions from this is not sensible

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..even if it is established in court that this was a purely racist murder then it still doesn't make it anything more than an isolated act of two hate filled/racist men not indicative of anything more...much the same way as isolated non-terrorist incidents of hatefilled people screaming This is for Syria before slitting a non Muslim throat or any other such the like hate-filled isolated incidents...you may call terrorist and add to the hate/fuel it but I do not, I take these racist incidents, which sadly there has always been and probably always will be, as completely isolated in what they are...


..just directly to the OP herself, I know how passionately you feel about media slants and potentially 'inciting' etc and I do understand any outrage/passion of feelings about this murder, I really do...but I think there is a danger of people becoming 'alarmist' also in 'kneejerk', which would have a very counter-productive effect and the media would then be manipulating us as well...

Racism has gone up by a massive 69% in the UK since the French incident. I live in central London and the white supremacy marches are running amok. Crime against Muslims, mostly women and children is at a record high and so it was only a matter of time before a racial hate murder was committed.

I'm not sure what you mean about knee-jerk reaction? do you mean to this thread (the first of its kind I believe) ? or all the threads that keep going up about Muslims committing crimes? The only reaction you can have to a thread like this is a sense of sadness and anger towards this man's killers but on that other thread about Muslim rape, I've seen a few very strong knee-jerk reactions towards Muslims not just the rapists.

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Racism has gone up by a massive 69% in the UK since the French incident. I live in central London and the white supremacy marches are running amok. Crime against Muslims, mostly women and children is at a record high and so it was only a matter of time before a racial hate murder was committed.

I'm not sure what you mean about knee-jerk reaction? do you mean to this thread (the first of its kind I believe) ? or all the threads that keep going up about Muslims committing crimes? The only reaction you can have to a thread like this is a sense of sadness and anger towards this man's killers but on that other thread about Muslim rape, I've seen a few very strong knee-jerk reactions towards Muslims not just the rapists.

I think you need to be careful about terms. People are rightly concerned after the events in Paris, they have been told by governments to be more vigilant and careful. That advice doesn't come without consequences, but it doesn't necessarily equate to racism either

Some English fans used to go abroad and cause havoc where ever they went. It was a small bunch out of the total, number of fans, but the towns where they visited would be vigilant and prepared for trouble from any English fans. That doesn't make them racist, not in the least.

[Lee.]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

I think you need to be careful about terms. People are rightly concerned after the events in Paris, they have been told by governments to be more vigilant and careful. That advice doesn't come without consequences, but it doesn't necessarily equate to racism either

Some English fans used to go abroad and cause havoc where ever they went. It was a small bunch out of the total, number of fans, but the towns where they visited would be vigilant and prepared for trouble from any English fans. That doesn't make them racist, not in the least.

But would it have been acceptable for everybody to fear the whole population of England based on a small group of hooligans? No, that would be silliness

[lostalex]

now lets compare the number of muslims killed in the western world by western people, to the number of christians and gays killed in the muslim world by muslims...

if you really want to go there let's compare numbers. shall we?

[Ammi]

....hmmm no, the 'knee jerk' was more about any understandable outrage/or sadness felt about Mushnin Ahmed's murder, which I think we all feel and which I believe I said.. but keeping it in perspective as being two hate-filled people having killed him, rather than it being an indication of 'a result of..' or having any link to any white supremist marches etc...I don't personally really do statistics/percentages/reports show this and that/ type thing because these things allow for so many inaccuracies/things factored into and not factored into and such the like and also are not inclusive of all...69% is a huge number, a huge rise so I think wherever we lived, we would have all seen some signs of that huge rise in racism/it would be hard to not see ... but not only is it not something I've experienced myself, so would doubt the figures (that's not saying that there may be some type of rise..).. but this isn't only racism, is it...it's that someone was murdered../and possibly a pure racist act of hate because of his faith...but for me to factor into that isolated hate act as well would be a day or evening of alcohol drinking/drug taking/both prescription and other ...and getting into a 'raging fury' and together with an inbuilt racial prejudice, which built up to hate, extreme hate, yes of course...but still no indication of any other factors involved in that hate of, for instance 'all of these Muslim people are ISIS, 'we' don't want any here'....those are things that we could not possibly know unless it was stated by these men, yes we've felt this since the Paris attacks or another IS attack...what we do know is that they were hate filled when they killed Mushnan and they have to 'own' that hate themselves and hopefully recieve maximum sentences for it, seperate and apart from any ISIS acts in the world...

..I do feel personally that thinking any correlation..(I'm using Marsh's word..)...with what these two men did that day and any possible 'influenced encoragement/incitement' from world events is just something that isn't there atm...

[Toy Soldier]

No, normal people don't just go around killing people, but generally for a murder to occur you need two things unless you're dealing with a complete psychopath. Those two things being a precondition, and a trigger. In this case, it seems fairly evident that there are two preconditions at play... a steady underlying general level of violence in that individual, and an escalating level of casual racism. The trigger being the actual events of the day. The concern is the escalating casual racism though, and anyone who acts like this isn't "a thing" in this country at the moment is walking around with their eyes shut. The media, and society in general, is desperately clawing to make it more and more acceptable to hold racial prejudices and to express them. This is a FACT. People with underlying prejudice are starting to feel more and more comfortable expressing them - and using them as an excuse. This has a snowball effect. The more people do it, the more it becomes acceptable, and the more people do it... and so on and so on.

The main problem there, is that the more people talk about and share these prejudices with other like-minded individuals, the further they are reinforced and the more "wound up" about it that person becomes, until (in cases like this, with other triggers and a general violent precondition) it ends up being used as a subconscious justification for doing something awful. It scrubs away empathy. After all, it's "just a p**i", not "someone like them".

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I do feel personally that thinking any correlation..(I'm using Marsh's word..)...with what these two men did that day and any possible 'influenced encoragement/incitement' from world events is just something that isn't there atm...

It is there though Ammi, I don't really know how you haven't seen it. To use an example - I've now had 4 or 5 incidents in the last 2 years of people having to be barred completely from my shop for racist outbursts. Most of them totally unprovoked. I've been in the same job 6 years... in the 4 preceeding years there were zero such incidents. Were there still racist individuals? Of course there were. They would whisper their jokes and chuckle. One old man once gave me a home-printed pamphlet about Muslims taking over the world. But they didn't start shouting it at the top of their voice proudly - and they didn't start verbally attacking other individuals openly. People do that now. They think it's acceptable, that they're "only saying what everyone's thinking".

It's slowly, but quite obviously, becoming more socially (and in many people's opinion, morally) acceptable to violently express dislike of foreigners in various ways. Obviously, physical violence is an extreme example of this, but it *absolutely is* a factor. Ignoring that, or making excuses that it's "probably other unrelated things" is the absolute worst thing we can do.

I obviously don't think it's right to see any attack by a person of one race on a person of another and automatically assume racism when there's no other evidence of that person being racist. However, In this case, there is clear evidence that this individual IS racist and WAS openly expressing racist views at various times, even escalating in the lead up to the attack. He then violently attacked a non-white-English person. It would be massively naive to assume that that's purely coincidence. In my opinion.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

I think you need to be careful about terms. People are rightly concerned after the events in Paris, they have been told by governments to be more vigilant and careful. That advice doesn't come without consequences, but it doesn't necessarily equate to racism either

Some English fans used to go abroad and cause havoc where ever they went. It was a small bunch out of the total, number of fans, but the towns where they visited would be vigilant and prepared for trouble from any English fans. That doesn't make them racist, not in the least.

Careful about what terms?
Some people were concerned after the events in Paris and some people remained concerned because the government and popular media were warning us all to be more vigilant. My question was and still is, be more vigilant about what exactly? I have Muslims all around me, what am I supposed to be looking out for?. Should I learn Arabic? or just listen for random words like 'Allah Akbar'?. Should I be checking the Muslim guy on the tube to make sure he doesn't have a knife? that he's not about to slit my throat?.

At the same time our government were telling us all to be vigilant (whatever that means) they were rushing through new snooping laws for this "war on terror" . They'd already been spanked for snooping on us without our permission and were still smarting from the Snowden leaks. This new 'war on terror' has now given our government cart-blanc permission to push through new legislation that we would otherwise refuse to have. From where I'm sitting, it feels like we've all been played.

We have keep the threat in proportion to what happens in our life every day. The chances of me being attacked or involved in an incident by an Islamic terrorist is probably as remote as winning the national lottery.

[DemolitionRed]

@TS

I wholeheartedly agree with everything you wrote in that post.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

No, normal people don't just go around killing people, but generally for a murder to occur you need two things unless you're dealing with a complete psychopath. Those two things being a precondition, and a trigger. In this case, it seems fairly evident that there are two preconditions at play... a steady underlying general level of violence in that individual, and an escalating level of casual racism. The trigger being the actual events of the day. The concern is the escalating casual racism though, and anyone who acts like this isn't "a thing" in this country at the moment is walking around with their eyes shut. The media, and society in general, is desperately clawing to make it more and more acceptable to hold racial prejudices and to express them. This is a FACT. People with underlying prejudice are starting to feel more and more comfortable expressing them - and using them as an excuse. This has a snowball effect. The more people do it, the more it becomes acceptable, and the more people do it... and so on and so on.

The main problem there, is that the more people talk about and share these prejudices with other like-minded individuals, the further they are reinforced and the more "wound up" about it that person becomes, until (in cases like this, with other triggers and a general violent precondition) it ends up being used as a subconscious justification for doing something awful. It scrubs away empathy. After all, it's "just a p**i", not "someone like them".



It is there though Ammi, I don't really know how you haven't seen it. To use an example - I've now had 4 or 5 incidents in the last 2 years of people having to be barred completely from my shop for racist outbursts. Most of them totally unprovoked. I've been in the same job 6 years... in the 4 preceeding years there were zero such incidents. Were there still racist individuals? Of course there were. They would whisper their jokes and chuckle. One old man once gave me a home-printed pamphlet about Muslims taking over the world. But they didn't start shouting it at the top of their voice proudly - and they didn't start verbally attacking other individuals openly. People do that now. They think it's acceptable, that they're "only saying what everyone's thinking".

It's slowly, but quite obviously, becoming more socially (and in many people's opinion, morally) acceptable to violently express dislike of foreigners in various ways. Obviously, physical violence is an extreme example of this, but it *absolutely is* a factor. Ignoring that, or making excuses that it's "probably other unrelated things" is the absolute worst thing we can do.

I obviously don't think it's right to see any attack by a person of one race on a person of another and automatically assume racism when there's no other evidence of that person being racist. However, In this case, there is clear evidence that this individual IS racist and WAS openly expressing racist views at various times, even escalating in the lead up to the attack. He then violently attacked a non-white-English person. It would be massively naive to assume that that's purely coincidence. In my opinion.

..(you don't have to put the 'in my opinion every time....)...but yes, I can see that they were obviously racist and the level of their prejudice, 'hate' escalated by other factors that day as well and resulting in them brutally murdering Mushnin..but there is still no correlation between that day/their hate actions and any other world events as being the case...