[arista]

Sort this out PM Starmer.....


https://www.theguardian.com/society/...ction-over-pay



[Junior doctors in England will ballot for
strike action over 'ignored' demands for pay,
the British Medical Association has announced.
The union said three weeks had passed
since it warned the Government of
the 'consequences of the absence of a reasonable,
timely pay offer'.

The ballot will open on May 27 and closes on July 7.]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...mands-pay.html

[Livia]

Shame on them.

[Quantum Boy]

Thing is, there's this idea that it's some noble mission, and people say if someone doesn't like the pay they should have chosen another career... but the only alternative choice to healthcare staff asking for improved pay (if they don't want to work for peanuts) is indeed for them to not go into healthcare in the firstplace.

But we need healthcare staff. And the same people complaining about workers striking also complain (endlessly) if we import staffing from other countries.

You have to choose one. Make it an attractive career for people to get themselves the education and training to go into, or accept more and more staff via immigration. People just have this "I don't want us to do either of those things " mindset but no alternative solution.

[Livia]

Further to my previous comment... I don't know any profession where those in training are overpaid. Indeed, in some professions people work for nothing in order to gain experience. All the GPs at my local surgery work part time because they can afford to, so it's not like their training doesn't lead to lucrative careers.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Quantum Boy

Thing is, there's this idea that it's some noble mission, and people say if someone doesn't like the pay they should have chosen another career... but the only alternative choice to healthcare staff asking for improved pay (if they don't want to work for peanuts) is indeed for them to not go into healthcare in the firstplace.

But we need healthcare staff. And the same people complaining about workers striking also complain (endlessly) if we import staffing from other countries.

You have to choose one. Make it an attractive career for people to get themselves the education and training to go into, or accept more and more staff via immigration. People just have this "I don't want us to do either of those things " mindset but no alternative solution.

I agree with all you've said there.
I will still support the Junior Doctors and this government need to ensure they are retained.
They had enough to contend with from the last lot.

[Quantum Boy]

Originally Posted by Livia

Further to my previous comment... I don't know any profession where those in training are overpaid. Indeed, in some professions people work for nothing in order to gain experience. All the GPs at my local surgery work part time because they can afford to, so it's not like their training doesn't lead to lucrative careers.

Junior doctors are not "doctors in training", it doesn't just refer to FY1&2, junior doctor refers to any doctor below consultant level. The only doctors NOT under the "junior doctor" umbrella are those who can go into independent practice i.e. consultants, GP's and a small number of non-consultant specialists.

Couple that with the fact that training entry requirements are sky high, which means people being accepted into medical training could go into basically any field they want ... so if other careers simply offer better salary with (most likely) less effort - medicine degrees are gruelling and from what I hear FY1 and 2 are worse, often 60hr weeks for what? Mid-30k salaries? It works out practically minimum wage .

Yes GPs and consultants can make good money but meh. Why would someone put themselves through that into their 40's when, if they're the sort of straight-A student they'd need to be to get into medicine, they could be making more by their late 20's in another field.

It's a mess just at that. BUT then consider, that a UK medical degree is accepted all over the world, and other countries pay more. A lot more. So what actually happens is, a lot of them simply (and understandably) fk off abroad.

Again the same people who don't like that we import professionals from abroad, don't seem concerned about us losing all of our own professionals to countries that'll pay them.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Quantum Boy

Junior doctors are not "doctors in training", it doesn't just refer to FY1&2, junior doctor refers to any doctor below consultant level. The only doctors NOT under the "junior doctor" umbrella are those who can go into independent practice i.e. consultants, GP's and a small number of non-consultant specialists.

Couple that with the fact that training entry requirements are sky high, which means people being accepted into medical training could go into basically any field they want ... so if other careers simply offer better salary with (most likely) less effort - medicine degrees are gruelling and from what I hear FY1 and 2 are worse, often 60hr weeks for what? Mid-30k salaries? It works out practically minimum wage .

Yes GPs and consultants can make good money but meh. Why would someone put themselves through that into their 40's when, if they're the sort of straight-A student they'd need to be to get into medicine, they could be making more by their late 20's in another field.

It's a mess just at that. BUT then consider, that a UK medical degree is accepted all over the world, and other countries pay more. A lot more. So what actually happens is, a lot of them simply (and understandably) fk off abroad.

Again the same people who don't like that we import professionals from abroad, don't seem concerned about us losing all of our own professionals to countries that'll pay them.

You are right.

I had 2 Cousins who were junior doctors after out of all training.
They sadly for their family but good for them went over to New Zealand and then Australia.
After the strikes during Jeremy Hunt's time as health secretary.
Never looked back and are valued far more than here in the UK.

As I understand it, it can be that the term junior doctor can apply to those still in some training but it also applies to junior doctors no longer so too.

I also think the BMA wants the term junior doctor changed to resident doctor.

[Beso]

We never had this before mass immigration.