Christians

[BBUK4LYFE]

What y'all have to say about this image?

http://i37.tinypic.com/e6u351.jpg

I just came across this and I showed it to a few Christians that I know and they had no response at all.

[Novo]

I think a wheel like this can apply to all religions not just christianity

[ILoveTRW]

Religion is just away of controlling people

[BBUK4LYFE]

I'm at the point in my life where blind faith is simply not enough. I need concrete evidence to show that something does exist before I start patterning my life after a religion.

[bananarama]

What y'all have to say about this image?

http://i37.tinypic.com/e6u351.jpg

I just came across this and I showed it to a few Christians that I know and they had no response at all.




This is what it should read........




The Bible is the word of MAN

The Bible is a big lie

The Bible is dangerous to mental health

[andyman]

Some ok stories in that old book..

[Alf]

a load of codswallop
never the less, the bible is a good read

[arsenalforever]

a load of codswallop
never the less, the bible is a good read

true

[Tom4784]

I think religion is what you make of it, Blind faith is never good because if god exists he gave us free will to make our own conclusions. Religion helps people through tough times so I'm not against it but blind faith never leads to anything remately good.

[Sticks]

I just came across this and I showed it to a few Christians that I know and they had no response at all.


Obviously they had no training in apologetics and Christian evidences.

This is the long version (http://www.apologeticspress.org/pdfs/e-books_pdf/idobi.pdf), in fact it is an e-book which I challenge you to look through.

Shorter version

Any book can make what ever claim it likes, but can thos claims be substantiated. While not being a text book the Bible makes various statements about the world, which were not discovered by modern science since fairly recently. (A sample of them are in that link)

How could the writers know, without divine inspiration?

Now one thing you have to know about the Bible is that it is actually a collection of sixty six books, written in more than one language, by several people from all walks of life over several centuries.

Yet it all fits together.

The Old Testament came together by the first century CE, and the New Testament with in a very short time compared to other historical documents.

If you look at various prophecies with in the various books, you find an amazing amount of prophecy fulfilment. One author names a specific person, several years before he ascends a throne.

And as for the Messianic prophecies, try fulfilling all of them, even to deciding where to be born.

We believe the Bible to be the word of God, not only because it tells us, but also because the things it says about the world not known until recently and the fulfilled prophecy contained with in. This points to it's divne inspiration which substantiates the claim.

All done without circular reasoning.

[andyman]

Constanine the Great is the man! Sticks knows that..

[Jessica.]

The Bible was just what they thought of things back then they weren't scientists so not everything is what you would call fact but we can still believe the bible, just in a different way.

[Stu]

Over to Bill Hicks...

''Christianity. Fascinating religion. You must understand God has infinite love, and you MUST believe this. Or your going to hell. HAHAHAHAHA!''.

There is something out there. No way your mind was created by chemical chance alone. Give yourselves a little more credit.

Just don't let Religion destroy your faith. It's still possible to believe and love a God concept without the strength in numbers cult aspect of organized religion.

My god does not judge. My god is one based purely on infinite love. Do people really still believe in the devil? What could oppose God's will?

God is in everything. We don't even know what we are. We have no hope of ever understanding reality or god. We could be one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. Wheres the proof that the life your living is as straightforward as it seems just because that's what your used to? Is green grass really green? Why do other mammals see it in different colors? What does this world actually look like from an outside perspective when out brain does not process or limit the information?

The Bible teaches not to ... well ... get the horn for another woman. None of us can help this. The Bible contradicts itself numerous times. It's simply too big, too crude, and written by too many people to be taken seriously. God condemns ALL of us to sin then sends a Jewish zombie to save us from the sin HE condemned us to in the first place?

Umm ... huh?

If it's the word of God, why do some passages describe the earth as being flat? Is the christian god mentally disabled?

There are hundreds of prophecies in the Bible. Some set out in the most mundane, open to interpretation and fulfillment way imaginable.

Most people just dig the whole communal feel of dogma. It's like living in fantasy. It's ... well ... like being a Jedi.

[Stu]

Anybody can set about fulfilling and writing prophecy. Especially in the ye olde days. Write down the name of an individual, the location of his birth, and what he would do with his life. Then somebody, either the individual himself or a few writers who are either naive or deceitful, 'fulfills' the prophecy. Voila.

Who exactly recorded what Jesus said in the garden before he was betrayed? I thought all the apostles were asleep?

Here is the killer : If God is so merciful, and if he is such a clearly egotistical bastard in need of attention, and if he wants to save us all, why on earth cant he just send Jesus down again to perform miracles when we have camcorders to document it? He is God. He can ... do stuff. His not David fricken Blaine. The whole world would believe. God could fill us up with something RIGHT NOW if he wanted if he were so infinite. He could tick something off in our minds. We would notice it.

Yet nothing. Nothing at all. God indeed works in mysterious ways. And if you think there was only one Jesus, I have extreme pity for you.

[Sticks]

Over to Bill Hicks...

''Christianity. Fascinating religion. You must understand God has infinite love, and you MUST believe this. Or your going to hell. HAHAHAHAHA!''.

There is something out there. No way your mind was created by chemical chance alone. Give yourselves a little more credit.


If that is the case why has every attempt to produce life in the laboratory failed. Even the likes of Fred Hoyle, one time Astronomer Royal criticised this bankrupt theory of Spontaneous Generation?


Just don't let Religion destroy your faith. It's still possible to believe and love a God concept without the strength in numbers cult aspect of organized religion.

Who are you angry with, particular denominations or God. Your previous comment about life arising from chemicals seems to indicate you have a great faith in that concept.


My god does not judge. My god is one based purely on infinite love. Do people really still believe in the devil? What could oppose God's will?

But some people oppose God as well. God Allows that due to allowing this thing called Free Will. According to certain Jewish myths, God also gave free will to angelic beings, one of whom was Satan, who later chose to use it to rebel. If you look at Job 1:1 you find Satan came along with the angels, indicating he was a angel, but I digress


God is in everything.

That doctrine is known as pantheism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism)


We don't even know what we are. We have no hope of ever understanding reality or god. We could be one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. Wheres the proof that the life your living is as straightforward as it seems just because that's what your used to? Is green grass really green? Why do other mammals see it in different colors? What does this world actually look like from an outside perspective when out brain does not process or limit the information?


This sounds very much along the lines of René Descartes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Descartes)


The Bible contradicts itself numerous times.


Care to back that up with specific examples instead of hand waving?


It's simply too big, too crude, and written by too many people to be taken seriously.


And yet as I mentioned before they all fit together. The fact there have been so many who wielded the pen should give it more authority as it is not the machinations of one individual, like certain other religigious texts through the centuries have been.


God condemns ALL of us to sin then sends a Jewish zombie to save us from the sin HE condemned us to in the first place?

To be pedantic, Man stands condemed because of his own sin. People exercised their free will and ended up in sin of their own volition. God did not put them there.

Why do you call Jesus a zombie? You can tell in the Garden of Gethsemane he asked if there was any other way than the cross, but out of his own volition chose to do God's will.


If it's the word of God, why do some passages describe the earth as being flat? Is the christian god mentally disabled?


Once again care to back that up with an example?

I can cite a scripture that says the Earth is round

"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in."
Isaiah 40:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%2040:22&version=NIV)


The word used for circle in Hebrew is Kug, meaning a ball or a sphere, so here the writer is saying God sits above the ball of the Earth, hardly the bible teaching that Earth is flat.



There are hundreds of prophecies in the Bible. Some set out in the most mundane, open to interpretation and fulfillment way imaginable.

Read Isaiah 53 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%2053&version=NIV), hardly as whooly as implied. Compare that to the life of Jesus and it is very specific. A lot of these prophecies are fulfilled within the scripture and not just the Messianic ones. Compare them to the so called writings of Nostrodamus they are hardly ambiguous like his quatrains are.


Most people just dig the whole communal feel of dogma. It's like living in fantasy. It's ... well ... like being a Jedi.

So some contend, something comes from nothing, non-living gives rise to living and unconscious gives rise to conscious and we are living in a fantasy world?

As for communal living etc, humans are social annimals, could there be a reason for that?

[Stu]

If that is the case why has every attempt to produce life in the laboratory failed.
I already told you I believe in a God concept.

Who are you angry with, particular denominations or God.
Religion. Your ultra specific, lurid Christian god. Men using the god hypothesis as a tool to judge others and undermine the rights of women [Old Testament, anyone?].

But some people oppose God as well. God Allows that due to allowing this thing called Free Will.
A bit like giving a mass murderer a knife in one hand, and a gun in the other, while telling him ''now don't do anything nasty, lad!''.

That doctrine is known as pantheism
Your illustrating your faults by having to narrow things down to doctrines. I am well aware of Pantheism. There are also a dozen other systems of belief with the exact same structure, only under different names. I believe in a cosmic life force, for sure. Not a man in the clouds, but *a* God. I don't need a label for that.

This sounds very much along the lines of René Descartes
Yep, enjoy some of his work. Not all, but some.

Care to back that up with specific examples instead of hand waving?
It's obvious beyond belief. I have no specific quotes, but just by opening it there are numerous flaws. If God is so merciful, why do we have to fear him? What about all the other unfulfilled prophecies? What about love thy neighbor, but judge him? Then judge not? THEN we have Christians for the death penalty? Did ''thou shalt not kill'' have a footnote or something?

Here, knock yourself out :

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

And yet as I mentioned before they all fit together.
Of course they do. It was an ongoing body of work written mostly by men who BELIEVE in the work. Previous books would influence the next.

Why do you call Jesus a zombie?
Simply a reference, in simple everyday English, to the resurrection.

out of his own volition chose to do God's will
I thought he WAS God? Why is he described as God one minuet, his son the next?

Once again care to back that up with an example?

Sure thing...

http://www.google.ie/#hl=en&source=hp&q=bible+says+earth+is+flat&btnG=Google+Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=bible+says+earth+is+flat&fp=bf2dd1507c58deba

Have fun with all of that. You cant deny certain passages allude to the earth being flat and confirm the Bible's HUMAN style of writing from a ye olde, HUMAN perspective.

What about the stars raining down upon the earth? Mentioned in Revelations, I believe, as well as other books. Of course we now know stars are not, in fact, tiny little white dots in the sky. The more you know.

Compare that to the life of Jesus and it is very specific.
Of course it is, that's because the people who scribed the life of Jesus READ and BELIEVED in the prophecies! And hence either intentionally or subconsciously shaped Jesus' life to perfectly fit that model!

Besides, ever hear of chance? Especially in a world where people were claiming to be Messiahs every single day?

humans are social annimals, could there be a reason for that?
Obviously. We have cognition. Thought. Emotion. Language. We write history and communicate ideas. Do I need to go on? That is not proof of your ultra specific, Christian god. The one who believes Homosexual act amounts to sin, yet God created love?

Now then, I am waiting for the man to come down and clear this matter up. Until then, I am not living by a dog earned, dark age text written, changed, written and changed again by dozens of men.

[Crimson Dynamo]

The basic premiss of that wheel is wrong. The Bible simply does not tell us, it demonstrates through eyewitness accounts, prophesy that is proved (time and time) true and archaeological evidential support as well as an avalanche of manuscript support. 2000 years later from the birth of Christ and noone has ever even remotely come up with a decent argument against the very basics of Christianity - hence the number of adherents across the globe.

[InOne]

The basic premiss of that wheel is wrong. The Bible simply does not tell us, it demonstrates through eyewitness accounts, prophesy that is proved (time and time) true and archaeological evidential support as well as an avalanche of manuscript support. 2000 years later from the birth of Christ and noone has ever even remotely come up with a decent argument against the very basics of Christianity - hence the number of adherents across the globe.

What? lol Try again...

[Crimson Dynamo]

What? lol Try again...

read the Bible and get back to me

[InOne]

read the Bible and get back to me

I am not quite sure if you are even serious or not lol But anyway, what do you mean by the basics of Christianity?

[Crimson Dynamo]

I am not quite sure if you are even serious or not lol But anyway, what do you mean by the basics of Christianity?

The life and resurrection of Jesus

[InOne]

The life and resurrection of Jesus

What about it?

[laurenheh]

pray tell us lol

[Crimson Dynamo]

What about it?

is the very basic of Christianity (something I am beginning to suspect you have little grasp of)

lol, as you would say

[InOne]

is the very basic of Christianity (something I am beginning to suspect you have little grasp of)

lol, as you would say

Hmmm, you mean the basis that borrowed off other Middle Eastern Religions at the time? Ok then.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Hmmm, you mean the basis that borrowed off other Middle Eastern Religions at the time? Ok then.

Holy Mary, that is such a tired cliche. This type of (internet based) argument has been debunked many hundreds of years ago.

Christianity is real, is live, is 2000 years old. Silly "mythbusting" facts and half truths are like pissing on a glacier.

[InOne]

Holy Mary, that is such a tired cliche. This type of (internet based) argument has been debunked many hundreds of years ago.

Christianity is real, is live, is 2000 years old. Silly "mythbusting" facts and half truths are like pissing on a glacier.

You are either seriously deluded or taking the piss.

[Crimson Dynamo]

You are either seriously deluded or taking the piss.

or right

and the clue is the answer is not your 2

[InOne]

or right

and the clue is the answer is not your 2

...

[James]

Nobody needs to use personal insults in these debates. Just saying. ;)

[InOne]

Nobody needs to use personal insults in these debates. Just saying. ;)

Who got personal?

[Scarlett.]

The only thing more annoying than Christians - People who dont beleive in anything and mock those who do

[InOne]

The only thing more annoying than Christians - People who dont beleive in anything and mock those who do

Why? It is funny.

[Scarlett.]

Why? It is funny.
Not really tbh

[InOne]

Not really tbh

What is not funny about it? It is not like it means anything, and it's not like God is real.

[Scarlett.]

What is not funny about it? It is not like it means anything, and it's not like God is real.
It's their choice to beleive, like your belief in science...

[InOne]

Yeah, but if they make a funny choice, it is our right to laugh.

[Scarlett.]

The basis of science is silly too...a big bang happens out of nowhere and creates life

[InOne]

Christianity:

The belief that some cosmic Jewish zombie can make you live for ever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

Makes perfect sense really.

[InOne]

Science is boring, Religion is funny.

[Scarlett.]

Christianity:

The belief that some cosmic Jewish zombie can make you live for ever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

Makes perfect sense really.
A lot of the bible is bullshit IMO, but it gives people something to believe in, gives their life meaning

Science may seem like it all makes sense, a lot of it doesn, but when you look outside the box you realise its just scientists giving meaning to things

[InOne]

A lot of the bible is bullshit IMO, but it gives people something to believe in, gives their life meaning

Science may seem like it all makes sense, a lot of it doesn, but when you look outside the box you realise its just scientists giving meaning to things

Well the idea of a God itself is a contradiction. But you don't even need to go as far as that. Religion does a good job of making itself look stupid.

[Sticks]

InOne and LeatherTrumpet, this is why on another Forum where I am a moderator we have a no religion rule amongst the rules for posting on that board.

Such discussions can degenerate into personal attacks which both of you seem to have been doing to one another, and such behaviour can lead to bannings or suspensions on either that other board or this one.

Now I have contributed here, and as far as I am aware I did not use personal attacks. I may issue challenges to an argument, ask a poster a question or request a poster to be specific or asking if they take a particular position, which is fair debating style.

If you want this thread to remain, can we please have proper thought out discussion, not trench warfare.

[Scarlett.]

Well the idea of a God itself is a contradiction. But you don't even need to go as far as that. Religion does a good job of making itself look stupid.
So what if it does? Theres nothing wrong with it (before you say it causes wars....Science created the Atomic bomb, science created the gun, science created a whole load of bad ****)

[Sticks]

Science and faith do not have to be mutually exclusive, however the subject of this thread is about Christians, so debates in general about Science and Faith should be on a separate thread.

[InOne]

So what if it does? Theres nothing wrong with it (before you say it causes wars....Science created the Atomic bomb, science created the gun, science created a whole load of bad ****)

People don't kill in the name of Science though do they?

[InOne]

Science and faith do not have to be mutually exclusive, however the subject of this thread is about Christians, so debates in general about Science and Faith should be on a separate thread.

Obviously sometimes the topic is going to go off track now and then, it happens.

[Scarlett.]

People don't kill in the name of Science though do they?
No, but more bad things have been caused by science, anyway, I agree with Sticks

Lets just agree to disagree

[InOne]

No, but more bad things have been caused by science, anyway, I agree with Sticks

Lets just agree to disagree

Fine.

[Alf]

sticks the peacemaker
he is the messiah

[MiuMiu]

Hello.

Christianity and Democracy cant go together.
Just saying.
Totally unrelated but it's true.

:)

[BBUK4LYFE]

InOne, **** of my thread.

I created this topic for a mature discussion on Christianity.

If the only thing that you are capable of posting is "lol" and other nonsense like that, this is clearly not the thread for you.

[Vicky.]

sticks the peacemaker
he is the messiah

Someone should write a book about this very moment.

Maybe then Sticks may be seen as some form of god in a few thousand years :D

[Crimson Dynamo]

InOne and LeatherTrumpet, this is why on another Forum where I am a moderator we have a no religion rule amongst the rules for posting on that board.

Such discussions can degenerate into personal attacks which both of you seem to have been doing to one another, and such behaviour can lead to bannings or suspensions on either that other board or this one.

Now I have contributed here, and as far as I am aware I did not use personal attacks. I may issue challenges to an argument, ask a poster a question or request a poster to be specific or asking if they take a particular position, which is fair debating style.

If you want this thread to remain, can we please have proper thought out discussion, not trench warfare.

Sorry, but I dont think you can level that at my posts. There is nothing unconstructive or personal in them. To gather me up with inone is incorrect. If you reread what I replied they do not correspond to your purple summary.

My only personal comment was that the poster had a poor grasp of Christianity and that was self evident from his posts.

[InOne]

InOne, **** of my thread.

I created this topic for a mature discussion on Christianity.

If the only thing that you are capable of posting is "lol" and other nonsense like that, this is clearly not the thread for you.

I can post wherever I want. There is nothing mature about Christianity so why should we maturely discuss it? People who follow Christianity see themselves better than us, enlightened almost. I call it a delusion. :)

[Sticks]

Sorry, but I dont think you can level that at my posts. There is nothing unconstructive or personal in them. To gather me up with inone is incorrect. If you reread what I replied they do not correspond to your purple summary.

My only personal comment was that the poster had a poor grasp of Christianity and that was self evident from his posts.

LeatherTrumpet

The tone of your exchange as it came across to me seemed aggressive and confrontational, with such statements as "Go and read the bible". Such tones can be counter productive in any debate. This is my experience from my forays into the world of apologetics. Remember more flies are caught with honey than vinegar

[InOne]

I have read the Bible, I have studied Christianity. Christians know it does not make sense, but they go on faith. You can't argue with faith, therefore you can never get through to a Christian

[Sticks]

I have read the Bible, I have studied Christianity. Christians know it does not make sense, but they go on faith. You can't argue with faith, therefore you can never get through to a Christian

What part to you does not make sense, please can you be specific.

[InOne]

What part to you does not make sense, please can you be specific.

A man coming back from the dead. The contradictions in all the gospals when they tell of the birth of Jesus. The fact that the idea, of the son of god and ressurection is ridiculously similar to the Egyptian religions. Also the NT was written about 50 years after Jesus's death, and longer in some cases. What is in the bible today is what the Catholic chuch decided, why choose some gospals and not others?

[Sticks]

At the risk of a minor thread hijack

A man coming back from the dead.

I am assuming you are referring to the resurrection of Christ. According to 1 Corinthians 15:12-19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians%2015:12-19&version=NIV) this is key to the Christian faith. The Bible teaches that Christ took all the sins of the world upon him when he died, and his resurrection was so there could be forgiveness of sins so people could be saved from their sins if they came to Christ.

Ideally a study of the system of sacrifices the Jews had in the Old Testament might give an idea of how this work, as it was a shadow of what was to come.

A good summary can be found sort of in Hebrews 9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%209&version=NIV), particularly Hebrews 9:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%209:22&version=NIV).

In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Unfortunately this may be hard for some to understand here, and the Bible does recognise that fact.

The contradictions in all the gospals when they tell of the birth of Jesus.

Actually there are only two gospels which detail Jesus Birth. Matthew and Luke. Matthew was aimed at Jewish Christians and Luke at gentiles. They come at this story from different angles and at different times. The common nativity play some may have had to perform at school bear little relationship to the actual gospel account. My favourite bug bear is the portrayal of three kings visiting a baby Jesus along with the shepherds while he is in the stable.

WRONG!

That is not what the Bible actually said. The number of magi or wise men is not stated. Only three different gifts. When they came to him, he was in a house, not the stable and Herod slew male infants of two years and under, giving some indication of time. Jesus was two when the magi visited. This is not the fault of the Bible, but of people's misconception of events. Luke takes place around his birth. Matthew starts at the beginning, but jumps forward in time, so you can see both gospels not only are aimed at different groups but also recount events in two different time frames.


The fact that the idea, of the son of god and resurrection is ridiculously similar to the Egyptian religions.

I am assuming you are referring to the legend of Osiris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris). If you compare the two stories of the resurrection of Osiris and that of Christ. You will find a wide gulf between them.

Osiris after being murdered by Set was bought back from the dead so Isis could get pregnant and give birth to Horus, and then Osiris died again.

In Christian theology, Christ laid down his life and died on a cross, executed by the Roman authorities. He then rises from the dead and continues to live at the right hand of the father.

Totally different from the Egyptian mythologies

Also the NT was written about 50 years after Jesus's death, and longer in some cases.

Compare that to other historical documents from antiquity. The times between the event and the first time it is written down is considerably longer. In historical terms the time between the events of the New Testament and it being written down is quite short. Also we are not limited to the New Testament as we also have the writings of Flavious Josephus and Tacitus

What is in the bible today is what the Catholic chuch decided, why choose some gospals and not others?

The Cannon of scripture at this point should be split into two parts the Old Testament and the New Testament.

By the time of Jesus, the cannon of the Old Testament had been fixed by Jewish scholars. It was decided long before the existence of the Roman Catholic Church.

As for the New Testament, a cannon had emerged and the Conference of Nicea in 325CE merely just ratified what already known.

There is of course the argument that there are other books not included. First with regard to the apocrypha. None of those books were ever quoted by Jesus and were always considered to be uninspired.

The other texts like the Pseudopycrypha and the gnostic gospels were written by known heretics.

If you study them, they had some really odd passages which are at total variance with the rest of the New Testament.

[InOne]

Interesting. But still you don't really put up any arguments against it. Maybe just explain it and look at it from a different angle. Still I don't think Christianity is any more or less true that the two other monotheistic religions. They all depend of faith. Blind faith, and as I have said, you can't debate with someone who cannot see the otherside.

[Crimson Dynamo]

CS Lewis said that 99% of Christians who drift away from Christianity do so through laziness rather than any specific counter argument on theology they have heard or read. I find that it also is applicable, in an obviously reverse when debating with Atheists. I also find that a common theme is that they claim to have read the Bible but then show a scant knowledge of it.

Most Christians have not read more than 25% of the Bible so one can make up their own minds about claims to have read it from confessed non-believers.

[InOne]

CS Lewis said that 99% of Christians who drift away from Christianity do so through laziness rather than any specific counter argument on theology they have heard or read. I find that it also is applicable, in an obviously reverse when debating with Atheists. I also find that a common theme is that they claim to have read the Bible but then show a scant knowledge of it.

Most Christians have not read more than 25% of the Bible so one can make up their own minds about claims to have read it from confessed non-believers.

If Christians actually read the Bible, they would not be Christian.

[MiuMiu]

Christinaity, IMO = Shame.
It places shame upon things that we, as humans, just cannot help.
I.e. Women, Sex, and Gay people to name but a few.

Someone said on here that it's just a way of conrtroling people.
I think that's the perfect way to describe christianity.
The control of thought, idea and action.

I think that if Jesus was real and if he came back, he'd be very unhappy with how things ended up.

Just my two cents.
:)

[Sticks]

There is a difference between what the Bible actually says and how certain institutions insisted it said while denying people the right to read it for themselves.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Christinaity, IMO = Shame.
It places shame upon things that we, as humans, just cannot help.
I.e. Women, Sex, and Gay people to name but a few.

Someone said on here that it's just a way of conrtroling people.
I think that's the perfect way to describe christianity.
The control of thought, idea and action.

I think that if Jesus was real and if he came back, he'd be very unhappy with how things ended up.

Just my two cents.
:)

Simply put you are just referring to what you have heard and not what you have read and understood. You mainly refer to some individual Old Testament Scripture but ignore what the New testament says and is about.



How anyone thinks that going to Church once a week for 90 minutes = control is beyond me. Most Christians spend more time per week in Tescos and Asda!

[Crimson Dynamo]

If Christians actually read the Bible, they would not be Christian.

Does not make sense, perhaps you can expand?:conf:

[Wildcat!]

Didnt bother to read through all the threads, but that cycle thing is stupid. ITs not like the bible is some book they found on the floor, and just believed everything it says.
JUst like anything, it needs credibility, ad the credibility comes from the Prophet who brought it to people. Jesus was a good man, everyone loved him before he started preaching, and he was selfless, and caring. Someone like that, who basically has nothing to gain in making it all up, someone who has never given you a reason to doubt him, or mistrust him, thats why people believe in the Bible, thats why people in the Tora (Moses), and the Kuran (Mohamed). Plus these books all have one thing in common, they preach goodness, and love in general.

ANd the kicker, is FAITH!!! Imo, you either have it, or you dont. IF you dont believe in any of them books, when you read it, then its just not in you. Or maybe something will happen in your life in the future, that will change you, and make you believe.
Bottom line is, there is no need to force it. As ar a I know, it should come very naturally.

[Wildcat!]

Christinaity, IMO = Shame.
It places shame upon things that we, as humans, just cannot help.
I.e. Women, Sex, and Gay people to name but a few.

Someone said on here that it's just a way of conrtroling people.
I think that's the perfect way to describe christianity.
The control of thought, idea and action.

I think that if Jesus was real and if he came back, he'd be very unhappy with how things ended up.

Just my two cents.
:)


Well this i the argument some people have to kick the church down (amd I am not christian). BUt you have to forget about the church for a moment, and think about the original message, where it came from! It didnt come from some big powerful institution trying to control you, the church came after all that. They definitely have their fault and became involved in politics rather than just god. BUt the Prophet didnt have thoe ambitions, he was a humble man, who lived a humble life, barely above poverty, even though he had thousands of followers. SO that point doesnt work for me.

[InOne]

Does not make sense, perhaps you can expand?:conf:

Do you believe the Bible is 100% the word of God?

[Enid]

Oh god, not this again.

This image just proves that Christianity is a farce. "Do this because the bible tells you to do it". **** RIGHT OFF!

[InOne]

Oh god, not this again.

This image just proves that Christianity is a farce. "Do this because the bible tells you to do it". **** RIGHT OFF!

Go on Enid, get em told!!!!!!

[Crimson Dynamo]

Oh god, not this again.

This image just proves that Christianity is a farce. "Do this because the bible tells you to do it". **** RIGHT OFF!

The irony in your opening statement....

[Crimson Dynamo]

Do you believe the Bible is 100% the word of God?


The answer to your question would very much depend on what your idea of God is. By what you have said so far I think i will pass and get the next one.

[InOne]

The answer to your question would very much depend on what your idea of God is. By what you have said so far I think i will pass and get the next one.

The God of the Bible, that is what i'm asking...

[Crimson Dynamo]

The God of the Bible, that is what i'm asking...

precisley

[InOne]

precisley

:/

[Stu]

Chewy hit the nail on the head with science. It is useless as an end unto itself. It's just applying names to things and explaining how they work. It does not make said things less amazing.

Hardcore Christianity and hardcore Atheism are both as bad as the other.

Question for Sticks : Do you believe in the theory of evolution? And more to the point, would you consider yourself creationist? Because Jesus was. The original sin of Adam & Eve was the entire reason for God being made flesh to redeem us, and Jesus believes in both Adam & Eve, and the flood/Noah's ark as being factual.

One thing I don't like is people trying to have there cake and eat it. From where I stand, the fact that the earth is more than a few thousand years old [fact] and the Bible utterly cannot co-exist. I once too tried to accept Jesus, and that lovely, peaceful New Testament vibe, but it fulfills and exists with the Old Testament. One cannot exist without the other.

Here is another theory of mine : What if Jesus WAS an incredible miracle worker, but was NOT the son of the God of the abrahamic religions?

After all, he was raised as a Jew. If you or I were raised as a Jew back then, and if you or I discovered we had incredible healing powers, obviously we would attribute them to our believed religion.

[arista]

There Is No God.

[Stu]

There Is No God.
There is something, that's for sure.

Unless your suggesting nothing came from nothing, and nothing then merged with a few more nothings to create more nothings ... which eventually some whacky ****ing way down the line splurted out a civilization capable of constructing nuclear bombs and cheese pizzas.

[arista]

We did not cone from Any God.

[Stu]

The basic premiss of that wheel is wrong. The Bible simply does not tell us, it demonstrates through eyewitness accounts, prophesy that is proved (time and time) true and archaeological evidential support as well as an avalanche of manuscript support. 2000 years later from the birth of Christ and noone has ever even remotely come up with a decent argument against the very basics of Christianity - hence the number of adherents across the globe.
One word :

DINOSAURS.

Hahahahahahah!

One would figure they would pop up in the bible somewhere, you know. And you are seriously deluded, and this is a fact kids, if you think Christianity has a huge number of adherents because they allllllllll participated in coherent online philosophical debates, and not because of ... i dunno ... tradition? Handing down of family values/religion? The millions of ordinary people who are christian by default because they don't bother to question?

And where is Jesus? Why should this debate even be taking place? What about people in the far reaches of the globe who have never even heard of him? Are they too going to suffer eternal damnation because they don't understand God's infinite love for them? [irony on a base level, but it's a hoot].

Why leave it to be written down on such an easily edited format?

Why visit such a small number of people in his lifetime?

Why attribute every possible good thing that happens in the world to being a 'miracle' when ignoring all the bad that happens?

And WHO I ask again, recorded what Jesus said in the garden? I thought all the apostles were taking a snooze?

If Jesus IS God, fair enough, but I would not put him in charge of sending out memos in MY ****ing office block :joker::joker::joker:.

We did not cone from Any God.
Your thinking too narrow. We definately came about in some esoteric/mystical and scientifically unexplainable way. Science cant boot itself up from zero. A car cant build itself from nothing in an empty warehouse.

[arista]

Probe Eight

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CR1BZ2E0L._SL500_AA240_.jpg

Read this Great Book.

[Stu]

Probe Eight
Read this Great Book.
I have read it, and I think it is complete rubbish. Richard Dawkins is a self serving moron and he gives most atheists a bad name. At least the Bible is great fantasy and is big enough to be used as a doorstop.

Once again, I ask you, do you believe nothing came from nothing? Do you believe zero multiplied by zero can give you a number?

[arista]

He is No Moron


It is a Great Book.

[arista]

You can come from a Fish
Still has Fecking All to do with a Fable Bible
or Fake God
Utter Fact.

[Stu]

You can come from a Fish
Still has Fecking All to do with a Fable Bible
or Fake God
Utter Fact.
Yes, and what did the fish come from? And more to the point, what did the first ever particle of anything come from? Your ignoring the entire point. You seem completely incapable of debate. Your posing it as if it is Dawkins Vs. God and The Bible Vs. Science. It's not that black and white.

I have no time to be arguing with children. Run along and play worship at the church of Dawkins.

[arista]

No Worship or Child here


Nothing is Black or White.

But there is No God.

[Wildcat!]

Arista is a Robot. YOure wasting your time. HE doent really have any argument, and is incapable of analysing another posters arguments. HE just has a few cliche statements, that he posts everytime these subjects come up. Check his background, you wil see, its really mo use, if you want to have a well thought out, intelligent debate. Just come up with some cliches, and yall can go back and forth.

[arista]

Arista is a Robot. YOure wasting your time. HE doent really have any argument, and is incapable of analysing another posters arguments. HE just has a few cliche statements, that he posts everytime these subjects come up. Check his background, you wil see, its really mo use, if you want to have a well thought out, intelligent debate. Just come up with some cliches, and yall can go back and forth.



Utter Bollocks.

[Stu]

Arista is a Robot. YOure wasting your time. HE doent really have any argument, and is incapable of analysing another posters arguments. HE just has a few cliche statements, that he posts everytime these subjects come up. Check his background, you wil see, its really mo use, if you want to have a well thought out, intelligent debate. Just come up with some cliches, and yall can go back and forth.
LOL, bang on the money. I pity the fool :joker:.

I guess some people jumped off the evolution train early. Life in the city.

[MiuMiu]

Simply put you are just referring to what you have heard and not what you have read and understood. You mainly refer to some individual Old Testament Scripture but ignore what the New testament says and is about.



How anyone thinks that going to Church once a week for 90 minutes = control is beyond me. Most Christians spend more time per week in Tescos and Asda!

That's taking my post WAY too literally.

The church controls the thoughts of people.
Why is there so much shame placed on women in the world of work and their sexuality and the way they expose their sexual behaviour?
Because the christian church deemed it to be shameful for a woman to suceed in work.
If she does she's a bitch.
And the shame in relation to sex.
If she's as sexual as a man, she's a *****.

It's the same with the shame placed on Gay people.
Christian's believe it to be against God's will for people to be gay.
Therefore the thought process of those that follow christinaity is undoubetly impacted upon by Christianity's opposition to Gay people.
I.e. a chrisitan person walks down a street and see's two women kissing.
Christian then thinks "Oh god. That's SO wrong and unnatural".
Really general example, but it's true.

It's a control of thoughts, ideas and actions as I said before.
Not a control on people to go to mass on a sunday FFS.
:rolleyes:

And as I said, I think the that Christianity has deviated SO much from what Jesus was probably on about, that it has become it's own thing. It's own monster.

[InOne]

Good you people are not deluded. Anyone who believes is god is deluded lol

[Crimson Dynamo]

Why is it when there is a debate about the nature of God those who say there is no God resort to insults in either their first or second posts (and subsequent posts)? ie fool, deluded and so forth..

It always suggests the same thing, poor knowledge of the subject matter and a lack of thought about what knowledge is available to them.

It is like playing football with your laces tied together!

[InOne]

Deluded is not an insult lol Just a fact...

[NettoSuperstar!]

Yeh same old unbalanced arguments I see. My question is if some guy finishes his shift at the taxi firm and then goes home and cooks dinner for the homeless in his area because of his devotion to Jesus...are you gonna call this guy a poor deluded fool? Well if yer are Im glad there are poor deluded fools about in this world

[InOne]

Yeh same old unbalanced arguments I see. My question is if some guy finishes his shift at the taxi firm and then goes home and cooks dinner for the homeless in his area because of his devotion to Jesus...are you gonna call this guy a poor deluded fool? Well if yer are Im glad there are poor deluded fools about in this world

So he has to do it in the name of Jesus? Not in kindness? Try again Netto. Bye.

[NettoSuperstar!]

So he has to do it in the name of Jesus? Not in kindness? Try again Netto. Bye.

Im talking about real people here who have been inspired by the teachings of Jesus and the Bible I saw him on TV the other week. You have the cheek to call that man deluded for his beliefs, shame on you.

[InOne]

Im talking about real people here who have been inspired by the teachings of Jesus and the Bible I saw him on TV the other week. You have the cheek to call that man deluded for his beliefs, shame on you.

Netto, basically all you seem to be bothered about is getting one over on me. You do not actually care. Should not take the name of some Rabbi who lived 2000 years ago to feed the poor.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Netto, basically all you seem to be bothered about is getting one over on me. You do not actually care. Should not take the name of some Rabbi who lived 2000 years ago to feed the poor.

What the hell does it matter to you why he does it? And I think you'll find Ive always argued the same points time and time again since I joined TIBB...you are but one of a long line of ignoramuses

[InOne]

What the hell does it matter to you why he does it? And I think you'll find Ive always argued the same points time and time again since I joined TIBB...you are but one of a long line of ignoramuses

All you do is swear and insult, and say bahahah.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Right ok so no rational argument then lol

[InOne]

Right ok so no rational argument then lol

Don't think you could handle it ;) I'm not talking about Religious people, i'm talking about the Religion.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Don't think you could handle it ;) I'm not talking about Religious people, i'm talking about the Religion.

Well the religion came about for political reasons. Jesus was a Jew like Probeeight said. I just think people like Jesus were good men trying to do good and most Christians follow that train of thought and arent fanatical about it and while there may or may not be a god if theyre doing good it doesnt matter does it? And some are fanatical irrational and misinterpret and twist the bible for their own ends just like some Muslims do

[InOne]

Well the religion came about for political reasons. Jesus was a Jew like Probeeight said. I just think people like Jesus were good men trying to do good and most Christians follow that train of thought and arent fanatical about it and while there may or may not be a god if theyre doing good it doesnt matter does it? And some are fanatical irrational and misinterpret and twist the bible for their own ends just like some Muslims do

Jesus never intended to start another Religion.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Jesus never intended to start another Religion.

Mark 16:15 (New International Version)

15: He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.

[InOne]

Mark 16:15 (New International Version)

15: He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.

Don't give me Bible quotes.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Jesus never intended to start another Religion.

No he was spreading the word of his faith...the Jewish one

[InOne]

No he was spreading the word of his faith...the Jewish one

Yep.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Yep.

Blimey we just agreed on something...the world may implode hold on!

[InOne]

Blimey we just agreed on something...the world may implode hold on!

;)

[Crimson Dynamo]

Don't give me Bible quotes.


Is the same response as the case for the accused saying "dont give me real evidence"

FAIL

[InOne]

Is the same response as the case for the accused saying "dont give me real evidence"

FAIL

If you class the Biblr as real evidence then you must be an idiot.

[Stu]

Im talking about real people here who have been inspired by the teachings of Jesus and the Bible I saw him on TV the other week. You have the cheek to call that man deluded for his beliefs, shame on you.
You don't need an excuse to be nice to people. His great works do not disprove the fact that the Bible is not factually accurate. There is no room for debate on that, it is simply a fact.

This is like Christians who say ''where do atheists get there morals from?''. So your telling me if it were not for the Bible you would be happy to kill?

One thing the major world religions do get right is ''treat others as you would like them to treat you''. The golden rule. Most of us are born with a natural sense of this.

Also, I provided numerous arguments LeatherTrumpet might or might not like to tackle. It's a shame he lets his religion down by resorting to abstract point dodging.



Here are some points in relation to using the Bible as a source for litetral truth :



* The Bible is a hodepodge collection of oral history, poetry, legend, myth, geneology, prophesy and visions, some of which date back to nomadic tribes in the Middle East. The problem with oral histories is that they change over time, and there is no way to verify what the original version of any of the accounts in the work might have looked like.

* The oral histories that were eventually included in the Bible were written down by different groups of people over centuries, and copied by hand numerous times, introducing changes and inaccuracies in the process as with any text that is copied (witness the variations in Shakespeare's folios).

* Numerous versions of chapters that have been included in the Bible by various groups (Jews, Gnostics and Christians) exist, and arbitrary decisions have been made as to which ones to include in what is accepted as the modern Christian version of the Bible. Chapters that have at one time or another been included and then removed from the Bible are called the Apocryopha. Some of these, most notably what are believed to be Gnostic texts, differ radically from the currently accepted version of the Bible.

* Both the Old Testament and the New have numerous internal contradictions that render any attempt to deem words of the Bible literally true impossible. For example, there are two different accounts of creation in the Old Testament and major contradictions among accounts of the life of Jesus in the New Testament.

* Linguistic and textual analysis of the Bible has demonstrated that some chapters have elisions or additions made by different authors, making a determination of the 'original' or 'true' version of the Bible problematic.

* There is ample evidence that some elisions and additions to some chapters were made for political reasons, or to express a religious viewpoint that differed from that held by the original author of the chapter.

* Historical sources show that the New Testament is factually inaccurate on matters including the reign of Herod and the Roman census.


And here are some of the many acts forbidden in this moral scripture. I doubt there is a man on the face of the earth who follows the Bible word for word. You cant. It's contradictory.


* Consuming blood, blood in meat is not exempt. (Genesis 9:4)
* Performing any work on the sabbath.(Exodus 20:10)
* Cooking a goat in its mothers milk.(Exodus 23:19)
* Eating fat.(Leviticus 3:17)
* The consumption of pork.(Leviticus 11:7-8)
* Eating a fellowship offering more than three days old.(Leviticus 19:5-8)
* Bestiality.(Leviticus 19:19)
* Planting more then one kind of seed in a field.(Leviticus 19:19)
* Wearing clothing woven of more then one kind of cloth.(Leviticus 19:19)
* Cutting the hair on the sides of your head(Leviticus 19:27)
* Tattoos.(Leviticus 19:28)
* Consulting a psychic or spiritualist.(Leviticus 19:31)
* Being a psychic or spiritualist, punishable by death.(Leviticus 20:27)
* Touching the dead carcass of a pig.(Deuteronomy 14:8)
* Eating aquatic creatures lacking fins or scales.(Deuteronomy 14:9-10)
* Transvestism.(Deuteronomy 22:5)
* Consuming the meat of strangled animals.(Acts 15:28-29)
* For women, speaking in church.(1 Corinthians 14:34-35)
* If you are a slave, disobedience.(Ephesians 6:5)


Have fun, kids!

[InOne]

You don't need an excuse to be nice to people. His great works do not disprove the fact that the Bible is not factually accurate. There is no room for debate on that, it is simply a fact.

This is like Christians who say ''where do atheists get there morals from?''. So your telling me if it were not for the Bible you would be happy to kill?

One thing the major world religions do get right is ''treat others as you would like them to treat you''. The golden rule. Most of us are born with a natural sense of this.

Also, I provided numerous arguments LeatherTrumpet might or might not like to tackle. It's a shame he lets his religion down by resorting to abstract point dodging.



Here are some points in relation to using the Bible as a source for litetral truth :



* The Bible is a hodepodge collection of oral history, poetry, legend, myth, geneology, prophesy and visions, some of which date back to nomadic tribes in the Middle East. The problem with oral histories is that they change over time, and there is no way to verify what the original version of any of the accounts in the work might have looked like.

* The oral histories that were eventually included in the Bible were written down by different groups of people over centuries, and copied by hand numerous times, introducing changes and inaccuracies in the process as with any text that is copied (witness the variations in Shakespeare's folios).

* Numerous versions of chapters that have been included in the Bible by various groups (Jews, Gnostics and Christians) exist, and arbitrary decisions have been made as to which ones to include in what is accepted as the modern Christian version of the Bible. Chapters that have at one time or another been included and then removed from the Bible are called the Apocryopha. Some of these, most notably what are believed to be Gnostic texts, differ radically from the currently accepted version of the Bible.

* Both the Old Testament and the New have numerous internal contradictions that render any attempt to deem words of the Bible literally true impossible. For example, there are two different accounts of creation in the Old Testament and major contradictions among accounts of the life of Jesus in the New Testament.

* Linguistic and textual analysis of the Bible has demonstrated that some chapters have elisions or additions made by different authors, making a determination of the 'original' or 'true' version of the Bible problematic.

* There is ample evidence that some elisions and additions to some chapters were made for political reasons, or to express a religious viewpoint that differed from that held by the original author of the chapter.

* Historical sources show that the New Testament is factually inaccurate on matters including the reign of Herod and the Roman census.


And here are some of the many acts forbidden in this moral scripture. I doubt there is a man on the face of the earth who follows the Bible word for word. You cant. It's contradictory.


* Consuming blood, blood in meat is not exempt. (Genesis 9:4)
* Performing any work on the sabbath.(Exodus 20:10)
* Cooking a goat in its mothers milk.(Exodus 23:19)
* Eating fat.(Leviticus 3:17)
* The consumption of pork.(Leviticus 11:7-8)
* Eating a fellowship offering more than three days old.(Leviticus 19:5-8)
* Bestiality.(Leviticus 19:19)
* Planting more then one kind of seed in a field.(Leviticus 19:19)
* Wearing clothing woven of more then one kind of cloth.(Leviticus 19:19)
* Cutting the hair on the sides of your head(Leviticus 19:27)
* Tattoos.(Leviticus 19:28)
* Consulting a psychic or spiritualist.(Leviticus 19:31)
* Being a psychic or spiritualist, punishable by death.(Leviticus 20:27)
* Touching the dead carcass of a pig.(Deuteronomy 14:8)
* Eating aquatic creatures lacking fins or scales.(Deuteronomy 14:9-10)
* Transvestism.(Deuteronomy 22:5)
* Consuming the meat of strangled animals.(Acts 15:28-29)
* For women, speaking in church.(1 Corinthians 14:34-35)
* If you are a slave, disobedience.(Ephesians 6:5)


Have fun, kids!

Get them told! Nice post.

[Stu]

And just because I am in the mood, for all the ladies out there...

* Corinthians, 14:34-35: "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

* Exodus 21:7-8: And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her."

* Genesis 3:16: "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

* Genesis 19:8 "Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes"

* Leviticus 19:20: "And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free."

* Leviticus 27:3-7: "And thy estimation shall be of the male from twenty years old even unto sixty years old, even thy estimation shall be fifty shekels of silver... And if it be a female, then thy estimation shall be thirty shekels. And if it be from five years old even unto twenty years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male twenty shekels, and for the female ten shekels. And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. And if it be from sixty years old and above; if it be a male, then thy estimation shall be fifteen shekels, and for the female ten shekels."

* Deuteronomy 21:11-14: And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife. Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails. And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will..."

* Genesis 25:1 "Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah." [Only problem is that Abraham already had a wife (Sarah), and an abandoned concubine (Hagar).]

* 26:34, 29:29 "And Esau was forty years old when he took to wife Judith the daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and Bashemath the daughter of Elon the Hittite. ... Then went Esau unto Ishmael, and took unto the wives which he had Mahalath the daughter of Ishmael Abraham's son, the sister of Nebajoth, to be his wife."

* Genesis 32:22: "And he rose up that night, and took his two wives, and his two womenservants, "

* Genesis 36:6: "And Esau took his wives...."

[InOne]

As Artista said. God Delusion, sorted.

[Stu]

I must stress again that it is my belief that both atheism and religion are as bad as the other. People just cant open there minds to the alternatives to the Abrahamic God. When people ask me why I believe in a 'God' they think I believe in a sentient being living in the clouds who cares if I masturbate on Tuesdays. The 'force' that got us here could take any form. Our consciousness might not even be capable of understanding or fathoming this form. I am a big proponent of the idea that this life could be a very small part of a big deal, or that it may simply be a dream in a never ending episode of experiencing one mass subconscious subjectively. The possibilities are endless.

But everything cant possibly come from nothing. Give your mind a little more credit. It's an amazing thing that knows it's own existence. That alone is proof of something for me.

And that's why Richard Dawkins is a moron.

No, what this world needs is a quiet spiritual awakening in private and with each other, through the medium of reflection and love, and away from Church religion, which serve merely as means of identifying oneself. Strength in numbers.

Even religions message of anti-materialism is a fad when you realise you have merely substituted a sacred text for your new material fetish. The Bible looks great. It's big, it's black and it's golden. It looks awesome and convinces you through the medium of aesthetics that it is indeed a good thing.

In reality, no man can teach you the way. Every available existing religious path in the world currently simply evolved from a living, ordinary man or group of living, ordinary men who had there own opinions that caught on until we believed them to be near fact, worthy of faith.

I would recommend at this point, of course, to getting an group of insightful friends, retreat to nature, munching down some psilocybin mushrooms that nature conveniently left there with us and take some drumming or rhythmic apparatus with you [after all, life is merely one long rhythm of impermanence, and music is a creative reflection on that. Music is sacred, folks. It makes you feel things. We have a natural sense of rhythm].

Of course, you could always stay in and watch the X Factor. The choice is yours.

[InOne]

I do not deny that there could be a god, small chance. But to bluntly say there is not would be as bad as them.

[NettoSuperstar!]

I never said the bible was factually accurate, I said I dont see whats wrong with someone following the teachings of the bible and following Jesus. Theres ways of living that benefit humanity and ways that dont...Its within us to follow either path, we arent inherently good or bad, whats wrong with Christians following the same path as Jesus? Thats what am sayin man

[Stu]

I never said the bible was factually accurate, I said I dont see whats wrong with someone following the teachings of the bible and following Jesus. Theres ways of living that benefit humanity and ways that dont...Its within us to follow either path, we arent inherently good or bad, whats wrong with Christians following the same path as Jesus? Thats what am sayin man
Don't get me wrong, I know you never said the Bible was factually accurate, my point is you don't need a reason to be nice to people. And someone following in Jesus' path is certainly admiral, given how morally up to scratch Jesus is in the New Testament [despite what an egotistical bastard he was in the old testament, or was that God? No Jesus is god. But wait, why does he pray to god then? I guess he must be the son of god. The trinity is a fascinating thing!] but it does NOT render religion valid in my eyes. Your still committing good acts in the name of something false.

I could go out on the streets now and give everybody a tenner in the name of Twacksmith, the god of leather pants, but despite my good actions, it would not make what I believe anymore credible.

You will, I should point out, see HOARDS of scientologists in there little yellow jackets helping people and showering them with care at most major disasters in America.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Most of our (and your) morality comes from the Bible

[Sticks]

ProbeEight, there is such a concept as context.

For one, a lot of your quotes were injunctions from the Old Testament and part of the Old Covenant.

These were done away with when Jesus died on the cross, and we are under the new covenant where a lot of those rules were never copied across.

With regard to philanthropy, the 19th century reformers were motivated by their faith to assist their fellow human beings.

Can you give me examples of well known atheists or humanists who have done the same motivated by their beliefs?

[InOne]

ProbeEight, there is such a concept as context.

For one, a lot of your quotes were injunctions from the Old Testament and part of the Old Covenant.

These were done away with when Jesus died on the cross, and we are under the new covenant where a lot of those rules were never copied across.

With regard to philanthropy, the 19th century reformers were motivated by their faith to assist their fellow human beings.

Can you give me examples of well known atheists or humanists who have done the same motivated by their beliefs?

Do you agree with the idea of original sin?

[Stu]

ProbeEight, there is such a concept as context.

For one, a lot of your quotes were injunctions from the Old Testament and part of the Old Covenant.

These were done away with when Jesus died on the cross, and we are under the new covenant where a lot of those rules were never copied across.

With regard to philanthropy, the 19th century reformers were motivated by their faith to assist their fellow human beings.

Can you give me examples of well known atheists or humanists who have done the same motivated by their beliefs?
Are you kidding me? Plenty of people donate to charity, provide humanitarian work, work with various groups, and commit all manner of philanthropy. Both secular and non secular, from ALL religions. That's not what I am here to argue. No doubt there are decent Christians out there doing nice stuff. Plenty, in fact.

So what of the laws in the torah? Were they all done away with too with the advent of Jesus & the New Testament? I speak of course of various passages depicting homosexuals in a bad light, as many Jesus followers still seem to bible bash and quote old covenant and indeed Old Testament verses to back up there homophobia. That's what irks me.

So we are told live by the bible but a great half of it is no longer relevant now that Jesus came? It's this very nature of various interpretations that makes it such a joke, I think. In essence you are proving my point. That and the fact that 'concept of context' is very much a blanket argument. But that's fair, I don't expect you to refute every horrible thing said in the Bible. You do need to sleep tonight.

Out of interest and understanding, and not as a personal attack, again I want to ask you : Do you believe in the theory of evolution? Or do you subscribe to biblical creationism? Because Jesus did. He believed in both the story of the great flood and adam and eve. Are Jesus' beliefs now irrelevant too?

Seems to me the [proven] fact that the earth is MORE than a couple of thousands of years old and The Bible, even in a friendly, New Testament guise, utterly cannot co-exist.

Jesus was a creationist. He is your God & Messiah. Are you a creationist, too?

[Stu]

Most of our (and your) morality comes from the Bible
Yeah, it's done such a good job, has it not?

:joker:

Do you agree with the idea of original sin?
How convenient it is that we are ALL born with sin, and the only way to heal it so to speak is to come to Jesus. L. Ron Hubbard would be proud!

You may also notice that quiet a lot of the seven 'deadly' sins lead to physical and emotional gratification. And that a few directly contradict, remove or solve the others [Pride Vs. Gluttony, for instance].

[InOne]

Ahhhh well we won't get through to these, they have an answer to everything, delusional or not.

[Crimson Dynamo]

if only you lot actually had a basic knowledge of what Christianity is then there could be a serious debate. All we have had so far is some myths, cliches and the usual insults that try (badly) to disguise a lack of subject knowledge.

[InOne]

if only you lot actually had a basic knowledge of what Christianity is then there could be a serious debate. All we have had so far is some myths, cliches and the usual insults that try (badly) to disguise a lack of subject knowledge.

Don't make me laugh, we know exactly what it is.

[Tom4784]

I think there's every possibility of a greater force but I do find the bible contradictory on points. I don't believe in placing all my eggs in one basket though so I don't really follow any religion and I don't think it's a point worth worrying about until you are near death or dead since we've got no proof to prove there's anything beyond death and no proof to say there isn't.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I think there's every possibility of a greater force but I do find the bible contradictory on points. I don't believe in placing all my eggs in one basket though so I don't really follow any religion and I don't think it's a point worth worrying about until you are near death or dead since we've got no proof to prove there's anything beyond death and no proof to say there isn't.

The Bible is 66 books written over thousands of years, some poetry, some prophesy, some allegory and some eyewitness history. The Old testament provides the types and shadows of what was to come in the New testament. The overarching theme is love.

Christianity is about faith and love. It is about how you live your life and how you treat others. It is not about a few facts or about death. It is about going to church, living, interacting and being.

[Sticks]

Do you agree with the idea of original sin?

Original Sin is a false doctrine, See Ezekiel 18 which comprehensively refutes it.

[InOne]

Christianity itself is full of contradictions and 'false' doctrines. Read the Bible, actually read it, you will see.

[Rob]

i'm a non-believer

[Niamh.]

I think there's every possibility of a greater force but I do find the bible contradictory on points. I don't believe in placing all my eggs in one basket though so I don't really follow any religion and I don't think it's a point worth worrying about until you are near death or dead since we've got no proof to prove there's anything beyond death and no proof to say there isn't.


Absolutely!! I agree 100% with this!!^^^^^^^^

[NettoSuperstar!]

Don't get me wrong, I know you never said the Bible was factually accurate, my point is you don't need a reason to be nice to people. And someone following in Jesus' path is certainly admiral, given how morally up to scratch Jesus is in the New Testament [despite what an egotistical bastard he was in the old testament, or was that God? No Jesus is god. But wait, why does he pray to god then? I guess he must be the son of god. The trinity is a fascinating thing!] but it does NOT render religion valid in my eyes. Your still committing good acts in the name of something false.

I could go out on the streets now and give everybody a tenner in the name of Twacksmith, the god of leather pants, but despite my good actions, it would not make what I believe anymore credible.

You will, I should point out, see HOARDS of scientologists in there little yellow jackets helping people and showering them with care at most major disasters in America.

Hehe and I'd wholeheartedly respect your faith in Twacksmith especially if you were givin me a tenner

[Crimson Dynamo]

Christianity itself is full of contradictions and 'false' doctrines. Read the Bible, actually read it, you will see.

Dan Brown has a lot to answer for.:elephant::elephant::elephant:

[InOne]

Dan Brown has a lot to answer for.:elephant::elephant::elephant:

He writes fiction. Same as the bible. :)

[Niamh.]

Dan Brown has a lot to answer for.:elephant::elephant::elephant:

Dan Brown?? lol. If people are generally good, then I don't see why they need to follow a whole set of rules which are alot of times pointless. I mean, take Catholicism for example, you're not allowed to use contraciption so it's better to have unwanted babies??? makes no sense at all

[InOne]

Dan Brown?? lol. If people are generally good, then I don't see why they need to follow a whole set of rules which are alot of times pointless. I mean, take Catholicism for example, you're not allowed to use contraciption so it's better to have unwanted babies??? makes no sense at all

Yep, it's funny how the Pope casually said 'Limbo does not exist'. Where did all those unbaptized babies go?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Dan Brown?? lol. If people are generally good, then I don't see why they need to follow a whole set of rules which are alot of times pointless. I mean, take Catholicism for example, you're not allowed to use contraciption so it's better to have unwanted babies??? makes no sense at all

I love your Catholicism summary. Perhaps you could look into it a bit more?

[Niamh.]

Yep, it's funny how the Pope casually said 'Limbo does not exist'. Where did all those unbaptized babies go?

lol, I know, that was made up years ago so the rich could buy their way out of it! Always comes back to money with organized religions. Same as politics, the power & the money drives them

[Niamh.]

I love your Catholicism summary. Perhaps you could look into it a bit more?

I was born into being a Catholic so don't you worry I know all about it and have choosen to use my own mind and not blindly follow what I was told to.

[InOne]

lol, I know, that was made up years ago so the rich could buy their way out of it! Always comes back to money with organized religions. Same as politics, the power & the money drives them

Yep I think even recently the Pope said, send more money to the church and spend less time in purgatory!!! An old Medievil scam.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Yep I think even recently the Pope said, send more money to the church and spend less time in purgatory!!! An old Medievil scam.

Us protestants cottoned onto that in the 16th century and kicked up a stink...

[Niamh.]

Yep I think even recently the Pope said, send more money to the church and spend less time in purgatory!!! An old Medievil scam.

Yeah, same with the priests not being able to marry, they were years ago but the church didn't want the wives getting their property so they changed the rule! Loving or money hungry, you decide???:joker:

[InOne]

Us protestants cottoned onto that in the 16th century and kicked up a stink...

Shame it went nowhere. The Vatican is it's own country, don't you know.

[InOne]

Ahhhh Catholics, always making it up as they go along, got to love it.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Shame it went nowhere. The Vatican is it's own country, don't you know.

There are millions of good Catholics around the globe doing amazing things for people who would be forgotten otherwise

[Niamh.]

There are millions of good Catholics around the globe doing amazing things for people who would be forgotten otherwise

Yes there is just as there is also lots good agnostic/athiest people doing good things for people.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Yes there is just as there is also lots good agnostic/athiest people doing good things for people.

Not anywhere near the scale of organised Christian religion

[Niamh.]

Not anywhere near the scale of organised Christian religion


What about the Red Cross? that's nothing to do with a religion??? Just wants to help less fortunate people.

And to go back to catholicism, what about all the misionary priests sent to Africa, helping the people yes but also converting them, so they as well can't use contraciption and they have aids running wild over there?

[Crimson Dynamo]

What about the Red Cross? that's nothing to do with a religion??? Just wants to help less fortunate people.

And to go back to catholicism, what about all the misionary priests sent to Africa, helping the people yes but also converting them, so they as well can't use contraciption and they have aids running wild over there?

That again is a liberal myth. All of the studies have shown that the only effective way to halt the aids problem in Africa is abstinence and sticking with one partner. Condoms may work in the west with western education and lifestyle but they do not in Africa.

[Sticks]

So who is you contention with, Christianity or Catholicism?

Many don't read the Bible and just accept what some groups say what it teaches. Also some who profess to be Christians do not live up to those ideals.

As for "unbaptised babies"

First Baptism if you read the New Testament was for believers and not infants. Second it was by immersion as the Greek word Baptizo used means immerse and baptism in Romans 6 and Colossians 2 is portrayed as a burial
Thirdly, infants are born innocent and not contaminated with the sin of Adam. That is the false doctrine of Original Sin, which Ezekiel 18 demolishes. Sin according to 1John is an act. Babies who die in infancy reach heaven and do not have to go to Limbo, a place whose existance is not supported by scripture either.

[InOne]

So who is you contention with, Christianity or Catholicism?

Many don't read the Bible and just accept what some groups say what it teaches. Also some who profess to be Christians do not live up to those ideals.

As for "unbaptised babies"

First Baptism if you read the New Testament was for believers and not infants. Second it was by immersion as the Greek word Baptizo used means immerse and baptism in Romans 6 and Colossians 2 is portrayed as a burial
Thirdly, infants are born innocent and not contaminated with the sin of Adam. That is the false doctrine of Original Sin, which Ezekiel 18 demolishes. Sin according to 1John is an act. Babies who die in infancy reach heaven and do not have to go to Limbo, a place whose existance is not supported by scripture either.

Ahhh yeah that is right, don't think or question about it, just accept it. Just about sums up Christianity. :thumbs:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Ahhh yeah that is right, don't think or question about it, just accept it. Just about sums up Christianity. :thumbs:

2000 years worth of debate on one subject, written and analysed more than any topic imaginable


and you reply thus..


As I have said, you unintentionally lay your self open with every keystroke

[InOne]

2000 years worth of debate on one subject, written and analysed more than any topic imaginable


and you reply thus..


As I have said, you unintentionally lay your self open with every keystroke

Just cos it's deabated does not make it true!!!!!!!!

[Stu]

The Bible is 66 books written over thousands of years, some poetry, some prophesy, some allegory and some eyewitness history.
Thus it would be foolish to follow it and think you know, like Sticks does, which parts seem to matter and which don't. Now I see your argument, LeatherTrumpet!

Thank you and goodnight.

66 books. Thousands of years. Dozens of versions. Hundreds of edits. And it's meant to give you peace of mind?

:joker::joker::joker:

[Wildcat!]

That again is a liberal myth. All of the studies have shown that the only effective way to halt the aids problem in Africa is abstinence and sticking with one partner. Condoms may work in the west with western education and lifestyle but they do not in Africa.


LOL!!! :laugh:
I am from Africa, thats gotta be the mot ignorant stupid thing I have ever heard in my whole life.
How does it not work in Africa? Did you think it through before making dumb posts like these? DO you think Africans are some idiots who cant comprehend how to use a condom? WHat kind of a dumbass are you?
And the red cross does great work in Africa, to prevent Aids, so does the church BTW. And they do not tell people not to use condoms.
YOu can get free condoms, in a lot of different places in Africa these days.

[Wildcat!]

Ahhh yeah that is right, don't think or question about it, just accept it. Just about sums up Christianity. :thumbs:

The irony is, you are acre actually the one who dont question your beliefs. You take the easy way out, probably because faith is something, thats above your brain capability.

[InOne]

The irony is, you are acre actually the one who dont question your beliefs. You take the easy way out, probably because faith is something, thats above your brain capability.

Try again. Oh and why are you even talking to me?

[Stu]

This is all so confusing. I will stick by my original argument. If Jesus was that great a deity, he would come down and fill us all with the knowledge of his story and clear this whole mess up.

Still waiting for somebody to refute that...

[InOne]

I am still waiting for a good explanation of the Trinity!!!! 1+1+1=1 ok then????????

[Wildcat!]

This is all so confusing. I will stick by my original argument. If Jesus was that great a deity, he would come down and fill us all with the knowledge of his story and clear this whole mess up.

Still waiting for somebody to refute that...


WHat would be the point? Life is supposed to be full of ups and downs. If it was obvious to everyone that there is one almighty god, and these are his instructions, everyone would be like zombies. I think there are supposed to be believers, and non believers. It would be too easy otherwise.:blush:

[InOne]

The idea of a God is a delusion. Fact.

[setanta]

I often wonder how many atheists start praying once they're on their deathbeds.

[InOne]

I often wonder how many atheists start praying once they're on their deathbeds.

That is a myth. Do you believe in God?

[setanta]

That is a myth. Do you believe in God?

How do you know it's a myth? I'd imagine that there would be quite a few who suddenly start praying to something or someone.

[InOne]

How do you know it's a myth? I'd imagine that there would be quite a few who suddenly start praying to something or someone.

It is amyth because alot of people are brought up Atheist these days. Why would they pray to something they know nothing about?

[Wildcat!]

This is all so confusing. I will stick by my original argument. If Jesus was that great a deity, he would come down and fill us all with the knowledge of his story and clear this whole mess up.

Still waiting for somebody to refute that...



SOme christian will argue, that if God showed himself,and gave you irrefutable proof, it would not longer be able to say I didnt know. So anything evil you did, would be unforgivable.
It all has to do with us proving ourselves to be able to make up our own mind, with the little unproven guidance we received. WIll you choose right from wrong without the proof that god exists.

See, I believe in god and my religion, but I do not believe that non believers will all go to hell. I think its even more admirable for someone to be good, even though they dont believe in god, and dont think there will be consequences for their actions in the after life. ANd if I can see the logic in that, I dont see how the almighty god, would not see it.

[InOne]

Anyone who questions Christianity goes to hell though, did you not know?

[Wildcat!]

Religion is not forced upon anyone, nor should it ever be. In history, a lot of religions used the word o god, to go to war, and slaughter people. I dont believe any of the prophets, would have condoned that. They went to war, because they were not allowed to have their beliefs, or they were prosecuted for their beliefs, but they didnt go to war to force their religion on others.
BUt then came the monarchs, who used religions, to justiy, their imperialism. Even the church. The key is to know that its wrong, and that there will be people who will abuse a religion. Even big groups of people.

So I dont see the point in questioning religions, when it doesnt affect you in any way. WHat is the point in trying to get people to abandon their religion, if all it does for them is help them be a better person?
If you however think that any religious groups is abusing their powers, or trying to force their religions on to others, then its perfectly OK to question it.

[InOne]

Just crazy how many believe it, it's ridiculous. To be fair I don't mind Deism, Religion is just no!

[Stu]

SOme christian will argue, that if God showed himself,and gave you irrefutable proof, it would not longer be able to say I didnt know. So anything evil you did, would be unforgivable.
It all has to do with us proving ourselves to be able to make up our own mind, with the little unproven guidance we received. WIll you choose right from wrong without the proof that god exists.

See, I believe in god and my religion, but I do not believe that non believers will all go to hell. I think its even more admirable for someone to be good, even though they don't believe in god, and dont think there will be consequences for their actions in the after life. And if I can see the logic in that, I don't see how the almighty god, would not see it.
Good points, but it seems like such a cheap way out, to chalk it all up to free will. What about people in isolated parts of the world who have no knowledge of anything outside there own indigenous culture? Are they going to hell? I know you don't believe in that but isin't that what happens to non believers?

Understand gods infinite love for you or suffer eternal damnation?

So anything evil you did, would be unforgivable.
I thought the whole point of Jesus was to redeem us and save us from our sins no matter what?

Wait a second...

...I have lost track of myself.

Can you start to see the thousands of interpretations out there? How do you know which one is right?

Dozens of books, dozens of authors, hundreds of edits, dozens of versions, thousands of years, historical and scientific, provable inaccuracies no matter which version.

And this is the basis for some sort of coherent faith?

Sorry, but call me faithless. It's too big a pill to swallow.

[setanta]

It is amyth because alot of people are brought up Atheist these days. Why would they pray to something they know nothing about?

Throughout time mankind has always believed in something beyond the physical world- usually a diety of some kind but not always. I think it's in our nature to have faith in something that can't be defined or bottled up and processed.

[InOne]

Throughout time mankind has always believed in something beyond the physical world- usually a diety of some kind but not always. I think it's in our nature to have faith in something that can't be defined or bottled up and processed.

Why do Humans feel they need something? Why do they feel so blessed that they must have a god?

[Wildcat!]

Good points, but it seems like such a cheap way out, to chalk it all up to free will. What about people in isolated parts of the world who have no knowledge of anything outside there own indigenous culture? Are they going to hell? I know you don't believe in that but isin't that what happens to non believers?

Understand gods infinite love for you or suffer eternal damnation?


I thought the whole point of Jesus was to redeem us and save us from our sins no matter what?

Wait a second...

...I have lost track of myself.

Can you start to see the thousands of interpretations out there? How do you know which one is right?

Dozens of books, dozens of authors, hundreds of edits, dozens of versions, thousands of years, historical and scientific, provable inaccuracies no matter which version.

And this is the basis for some sort of coherent faith?

Sorry, but call me faithless. It's too big a pill to swallow.


For the indigenous people, I actually asked a muslim scholar about that. And he told me, that its in the hand of god, and it doesnt say anywhere in the scriptures, that they will go to hell. So I believe those people are held to the standard of good and bad. I dont know what the bible say about it.

As for Jesus saving us for our sin, and what not, I mean I am not christian, but I think thats the point why god doesnt gove you irrefutable proof. If he did, then you wouldnt have Jesus say, I think he said “Father forgive them for they know not what they do…...” something like that. So with irreutable proof, he wouldnt be able to say that.


ANd all those interpretations, thats what human do. They twist things, make the perfect imperfect. Its human nature. And I think the challenge is exactly that, to make sense of all the confusion. I think it would be, for lack of a better word, boring.

[setanta]

Why do Humans feel they need something? Why do they feel so blessed that they must have a god?

I don't really think it's an intellectual problem though.... it's something inside each one of us that can't be defined on that level. It's why tribal people beat drums and dance manically to summon up spirits and the like. But I'm going off topic here, sorry.

[InOne]

I don't really think it's an intellectual problem though.... it's something inside each one of us that can't be defined on that level. It's why tribal people beat drums and dance manically to summon up spirits and the like. But I'm going off topic here, sorry.

It is a shame really.

[setanta]

What's a shame?

[InOne]

What's a shame?

That after all these years, Humans still need a God.

[setanta]

We'll always believe in something beyond the natural world. We wouldn't be where we are now without the stability it afforded every civilisation throughout time.

[Stu]

Why do Humans feel they need something? Why do they feel so blessed that they must have a god?
Because life is a mystery and some people want to explore that mystery. Unless of course you believe nothing exploded into everything and a purely scientific, chemical, reality based human brain is capable of even wondering such things. That's every bit as hilarious as the Bible.

People need to understand that there religions and there Bibles are just MAN MADE PATHS to discovering the God complex. The shamans had it right. They predated all the major world religions and nailed it the first time around. Leave religion out of it. Leave judgment out of it. Let it be about love, nature, and the mystical depths of your own human mind.

I dont know what the bible say about it.
It says non believers go to hell. Wait, it does not, it says they go to heaven. Wait, it dose not, it says they will go to purgatory. Wait, it dose not, it says Jesus will save them, wait it dose not, it says they are going to hell.

Depends which MAN WRITTEN book you read :conf:.

[InOne]

I'd rather be a Deist!

[Wildcat!]

Humans have always looked for a higher power. Primarily imo because there were so many things around them they coudnt explain.
There are a lot more atheist these days, because humanity thinks they know it all. WHich imo is ridiculous. SCience have time and time again proven itself wrong, and it will always.
Something big is eventually gonna happen that will make people question everything.

[InOne]

I hope something big happens, pretty bored of life at the moment.

[setanta]

Because life is a mystery and some people want to explore that mystery. Unless of course you believe nothing exploded into everything and a purely scientific, chemical, reality based human brain is capable of even wondering such things. That's every bit as hilarious as the Bible.



.

Well said.

[InOne]

http://s3.amazonaws.com/findagrave/photos/2002/283/6610999_1034366375.jpg


As charismatic as Jesus, yet they all still died.

[Stu]

Humans have always looked or a higher power. Primarily imo because there were so many things around them they coudnt explain.
There are a lot more atheist these days, because humanity thinks they know it all. WHich imo is ridiculous. SCience have time and time again proven itself wrong, and it will always.
Something big is eventually gonna happen that will make people question everything.
The whole world needs an entire collective reawakening. We need to realise out beliefs are just that. Beliefs. We need to realise there is a space in between religion and atheism. But we are too wrapped up in our own brain cell sapping culture of artificial food, prescription medication and ****ing trash television. Like you said, we think we are so great that we have overcome all possible spiritual explanations for the universe. Which is a joke. Take nothing for granted. Life is a ride. Enjoy it while you can.

[InOne]

Life means nothing lol millions of people have died before and so will you. No God can change that

[Stu]

Life means nothing lol millions of people have died before and so will you. No God can change that
So because we die life means nothing? In that case what are you wasting your time for? Isin't there a bottle of pills or a five story building nearby?

No. You want to live. Because like all of us, you want to feel love and you want to, in turn, love. That's what life is all about. A a bunch of chemicals combining over millions of years throughout human evolution cannot form a brain capable of such things.

Chemicals cant feel love. Just because Science cal point and label at things means jack ****. Was an atom an atom before we said it was an atom? What if we told people in the time of Jesus that all matter was comprised of these tiny little building blocks? What if we could somehow see them through microscopes back then? We would be amazed. Why is it any less spiritual or amazing because Science pointed the finger and said ''yo, this is an atom dudes''???

[Niamh.]

I often wonder how many atheists start praying once they're on their deathbeds.

I think I'm an agnostic actually. Athiest somedays but agnostoc others

[InOne]

So because we die life means nothing? In that case what are you wasting your time for? Isin't there a bottle of pills or a five story building nearby?

Just cos life means nothing does not mean I want to kill myself. Just take it as it comes!!!

[Stu]

Chemicals cant feel love. It's ridiculous to think they can. Chemicals cant join a forum and self reflective on the very nature of reality. Chemicals are not consciously aware of there own subjective reality. Chemicals certainly cant make a cheese sandwich and roll a spliff, goddammit. And that's why Richard Dawkins is a moron.

[setanta]

I'm not a fan of his either. Total prat on the Late Late.

[Niamh.]

Chemicals cant feel love. It's ridiculous to think they can. Chemicals cant join a forum and self reflective on the very nature of reality. Chemicals are not consciously aware of there own subjective reality. Chemicals certainly cant make a cheese sandwich and roll a spliff, goddammit. And that's why Richard Dawkins is a moron.

You're a fantastic debater you know:dance:

[Stu]

I'm not a fan of his either. Total prat on the Late Late.
He not only believes against Religion, which is fine, whatever, but he believes ANY attempt whatsoever to even wonder about something spiritual to the world outside the realms of science is akin to mental disease.

Muppet, he is. Anyone who can make the Late Late audience look the better party must be some eejit.

You're a fantastic debater you know:dance:
It's all thanks to the power of ~SCIENCE! :blush:

[Wildcat!]

LOL! I cant believe someone would be so narrow minded. ANd the funny thing about people like that is, they thing religious people are narrow minded (some are, fair enough), but a lot less than him.
Anyways, to me, its great to believe in a religion, but if you know its history, you should realise that not all of it is perfect. SOme were interpreted, and given maybe the wrong meanings. So its good to question certain aspects of them. I questions some things in my religion all the time. Because some of the things in it, I simply dont agree with, and some I find wrong. FIrstly, the scriptures (most of them), are opened to interpretations, and certain people took it upon themselves, to give the one and only interpretation. So there is room for them getting it wrong, because they are human, just like me. WHich imo, gives me the right to disagree with certain interpretations.
BUt I will never come out and say, thats rubbish, religion doent exist, god doesnt exist etc...

[setanta]

He's a typical academic who's just too far up his own arse. No room for compromise in his understanding of the world.

[InOne]

As I have said. There may be a God but Religion is man made. Fact.

[setanta]

As I have said. There may be a God but Religion is man made. Fact.

You're going back on yourself now. You said life is meaningless earier on.

[Wildcat!]

Anyways :rolleyes:
I ask some questions to scholars sometimes, and they dont have an answer for me. Like in Islam there are these scriptures (not in the Kuran, but apparently, they were teachings from the prophet), that tell you what you will get in heaven, and how its gonna be, and so on and so forth.
SO there is this passage, that states, you will get the most beautiful women, that when you see them, you will be blinded by their beauties etc.....
SO I asked him, so what about the women? WHat do they care about these beautiful heavenly females? And he was stumped, he didnt have an answer for me.
So that made me conclude, well, I am buying into these scriptures anymore. ITs obvious, it was written by someone who only considered the men, since at the time, they were very dominant.

[InOne]

You're going back on yourself now. You said life is meaningless earier on.

It is, does a God make life meaninful? Or is that something the Humans came up with!

[Stu]

LOL! I cant believe someone would be so narrow minded. ANd the funny thing about people like that is, they thing religious people are narrow minded (some are, fair enough), but a lot less than him.
Anyways, to me, its great to believe in a religion, but if you know its history, you should realise that not all of it is perfect. SOme were interpreted, and given maybe the wrong meanings. So its good to question certain aspects of them. I questions some things in my religion all the time. Because some of the things in it, I simply dont agree with, and some I find wrong. FIrstly, the scriptures (most of them), are opened to interpretations, and certain people took it upon themselves, to give the one and only interpretation. So there is room for them getting it wrong, because they are human, just like me. WHich imo, gives me the right to disagree with certain interpretations.
BUt I will never come out and say, thats rubbish, religion doent exist, god doesnt exist etc...
You just said it was a great thing to believe in a religion then you gave virtually every one of the best reasons for NOT believing in a religion.

Why cant you just search for God without the need for the crutch of religion? You said it yourself, there are endless interpretations. How do you know yours is right based on what you selfishly choose to either accept or reject? Why bother at all?

[InOne]

Anyways :rolleyes:
I ask some questions to scholars sometimes, and they dont have an answer for me. Like in Islam there are these scriptures (not in the Kuran, but apparently, they were teachings from the prophet), that tell you what you will get in heaven, and how its gonna be, and so on and so forth.
SO there is this passage, that states, you will get the most beautiful women, that when you see them, you will be blinded by their beauties etc.....
SO I asked him, so what about the women? WHat do they care about these beautiful heavenly females? And he was stumped, he didnt have an answer for me.
So that made me conclude, well, I am buying into these scriptures anymore. ITs obvious, it was written by someone who only considered the men, since at the time, they were very dominant.

Yep man. Was easy way for people with power at the time to take control.

[InOne]

Oh yeah and why is 'Christians' is the serious debates section?

[Wildcat!]

You just said it was a great thing to believe in a religion then you gave virtually every one of the best reasons for NOT believing in a religion.

Why cant you just search for God without the need for the crutch of religion? You said it yourself, there are endless interpretations. How do you know yours is right based on what you selfishly choose to either accept or reject? Why bother at all?


Thats not the religion though. did you even read my post? Thast some scriptures, that people claim, are from the prophet mohammed. BUt they are not from the Kuran. MY point is, this could be just something someone claimed, he heard the prophet MOhammed say. Which is not necessarily true.
I dont refute anything that says in the book. But its very poetic. And when I dont understand something, I will ask people to explain, but will only accept it, i it makes sense to me. I wont accept anything that doesnt make sense in my mind. And me believing in god, does not mean I dont need the help of the book. ANd it gives me structure, and guidance.

Its like saying, why o you listen to your parents, and follow what they say? Why not just do whatever pleases you? Or why do you believe teachers, and their teachings? ITs a silly attitude to have imo. BUt to each their own.

[InOne]

Thats not the religion though. did you even read my post? Thast some scriptures, that people claim, are from the prophet mohammed. BUt they are not from the Kuran. MY point is, this could be just something someone claimed, he heard the prophet MOhammed say. Which is not necessarily true.

Ahhh Mohammed an illiterate paedophile. Such a great prophet.

[Wildcat!]

Ahhh Mohammed an illiterate paedophile. Such a great prophet.


You just crossed the line with me with that. Have a nice life.

[InOne]

You just crossed the line with me with that. Have a nice life.

I'll try.

[MiuMiu]

And just because I am in the mood, for all the ladies out there...

* Corinthians, 14:34-35: "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

* Exodus 21:7-8: And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her."

* Genesis 3:16: "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

* Genesis 19:8 "Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes"

* Leviticus 19:20: "And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free."

* Leviticus 27:3-7: "And thy estimation shall be of the male from twenty years old even unto sixty years old, even thy estimation shall be fifty shekels of silver... And if it be a female, then thy estimation shall be thirty shekels. And if it be from five years old even unto twenty years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male twenty shekels, and for the female ten shekels. And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. And if it be from sixty years old and above; if it be a male, then thy estimation shall be fifteen shekels, and for the female ten shekels."

* Deuteronomy 21:11-14: And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife. Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails. And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will..."

* Genesis 25:1 "Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah." [Only problem is that Abraham already had a wife (Sarah), and an abandoned concubine (Hagar).]

* 26:34, 29:29 "And Esau was forty years old when he took to wife Judith the daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and Bashemath the daughter of Elon the Hittite. ... Then went Esau unto Ishmael, and took unto the wives which he had Mahalath the daughter of Ishmael Abraham's son, the sister of Nebajoth, to be his wife."

* Genesis 32:22: "And he rose up that night, and took his two wives, and his two womenservants, "

* Genesis 36:6: "And Esau took his wives...."

What an awesome post.
:)

But don't forget about
"give not thy strength unto women
nor thy ways to that which destroyeth kings"
Proverbs 31:3

:)

[Crimson Dynamo]

What an awesome post.
:)

But don't forget about
"give not thy strength unto women
nor thy ways to that which destroyeth kings"
Proverbs 31:3

:)

It is not an "awesome" (are you American?) post it is a person who does not understand the Bible, the OT or the NT.

Look at the role of women in the NT. They discovered Jesus had risen from the dead, they founded churches (Lydia) they gave birth to the messiah.

All of the above was incredible to first century life and rather illustrates that if people had wanted to bend truth and convert people through decit they certainly would not have used women in prominent roles.

To quote out of context is to remove a passage from its surrounding matter in such a way as to distort its meaning. The context in which a passage occurs always contributes to its meaning, and the shorter the passage the larger the contribution. For this reason, the quoter must always be careful to quote enough of the context not to misrepresent the meaning of the quote. Of course, in some sense, all quotation is out of context, but by a "contextomy", I refer only to those quotes whose meaning is changed by a loss of context. The fallacy of Quoting Out of Context is committed when a contextomy is offered as evidence in an argument....

[Niamh.]

It is not an "awesome" (are you American?) post it is a person who does not understand the Bible, the OT or the NT.

Look at the role of women in the NT. They discovered Jesus had risen from the dead, they founded churches (Lydia) they gave birth to the messiah.

All of the above was incredible to first century life and rather illustrates that if people had wanted to bend truth and convert people through decit they certainly would not have used women in prominent roles.

To quote out of context is to remove a passage from its surrounding matter in such a way as to distort its meaning. The context in which a passage occurs always contributes to its meaning, and the shorter the passage the larger the contribution. For this reason, the quoter must always be careful to quote enough of the context not to misrepresent the meaning of the quote. Of course, in some sense, all quotation is out of context, but by a "contextomy", I refer only to those quotes whose meaning is changed by a loss of context. The fallacy of Quoting Out of Context is committed when a contextomy is offered as evidence in an argument....

It was a very good post, insulting the words someone uses however isn't good posting in my opinion.

[NettoSuperstar!]

The whole world needs an entire collective reawakening. We need to realise out beliefs are just that. Beliefs. We need to realise there is a space in between religion and atheism. But we are too wrapped up in our own brain cell sapping culture of artificial food, prescription medication and ****ing trash television. Like you said, we think we are so great that we have overcome all possible spiritual explanations for the universe. Which is a joke. Take nothing for granted. Life is a ride. Enjoy it while you can.

I think your right in there being a space inbetween, Im a believer in critical evalution and rational scientific observation but there doesnt have to be a complete dismissal of all things spiritual just because we cant and never will be able to quantify it. That doesnt mean everyone should follow a religion and the world would be a better place (clearly that never worked) but we can learn, develop as humans and become mentally healthier from looking (with a rational and critical eye) at all spiritual teachings and start living for the good of all of humanity and not just our own selfish urges.

[Stu]

Thats not the religion though. did you even read my post? Thast some scriptures, that people claim, are from the prophet mohammed. BUt they are not from the Kuran. MY point is, this could be just something someone claimed, he heard the prophet MOhammed say. Which is not necessarily true.
I dont refute anything that says in the book. But its very poetic. And when I dont understand something, I will ask people to explain, but will only accept it, i it makes sense to me. I wont accept anything that doesnt make sense in my mind. And me believing in god, does not mean I dont need the help of the book. ANd it gives me structure, and guidance.

Its like saying, why o you listen to your parents, and follow what they say? Why not just do whatever pleases you? Or why do you believe teachers, and their teachings? ITs a silly attitude to have imo. BUt to each their own.
Did you even read my post? I was not talking about the Koran. Whats the title of this thread, again? I was merely saying that there are so many different interpretations of The Bible that how do people know there interpretation is right? Why bother at all?

To be honest I cant really follow much of what you are saying so I will leave it at that. You seem to be talking about Islam, which I don't know anything about admittedly :blush:.

I do, however, know a lot about the Bible. LeatherTrumpet's accusation that I don't comes from his specific interpretation of the Bible. Again showing how fallacious it is. He says it is all about context. That is a blanket argument that could be applied to absolutely anything in the Bible.

I suppose when Jesus talks about Adam & Eve he did not really believe in creationism, he was just speaking in the context of a parable? After all, like I have already said, and which no Christian on this forum has been able to respond to thus far : The PROOF that the world is more than 4,000 years old and Jesus himself, YOUR messiah, being a creationist seem utterly incompatible with one another. He spoke of Adam & Eve. He spoke of original sin. He spoke of Noah, the ark and the flood that covered the entire planet.

It was a very good post, insulting the words someone uses however isn't good posting in my opinion.
Repped. Who knows. His church might have banned the use of the word 'awesome'.

[Crimson Dynamo]

It was a very good post, insulting the words someone uses however isn't good posting in my opinion.

Are you saying that enquiring if someone is American is now considered an insult? Oh the sensitive sensibilities of the "i cant think of a rebuttal" poster.:hugesmile:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Did you even read my post? I was not talking about the Koran. Whats the title of this thread, again? I was merely saying that there are so many different interpretations of The Bible that how do people know there interpretation is right? Why bother at all?

To be honest I cant really follow much of what you are saying so I will leave it at that. You seem to be talking about Islam, which I don't know anything about admittedly :blush:.

I do, however, know a lot about the Bible. LeatherTrumpet's accusation that I don't comes from his specific interpretation of the Bible. Again showing how fallacious it is. He says it is all about context. That is a blanket argument that could be applied to absolutely anything in the Bible.

I suppose when Jesus talks about Adam & Eve he did not really believe in creationism, he was just speaking in the context of a parable? After all, like I have already said, and which no Christian on this forum has been able to respond to thus far : The PROOF that the world is more than 4,000 years old and Jesus himself, YOUR messiah, being a creationist seem utterly incompatible with one another. He spoke of Adam & Eve. He spoke of original sin. He spoke of Noah, the ark and the flood that covered the entire planet.


Repped. Who knows. His church might have banned the use of the word 'awesome'.


straw

man

city

Arizona (which coincidently is in America, I have heard it looks awesome)

[Niamh.]

Are you saying that enquiring if someone is American is now considered an insult? Oh the sensitive sensibilities of the "i cant think of a rebuttal" poster.:hugesmile:

Well, maybe I took you up wrong, as this is all reading words only, I can't pick up your tone but to me it implied that unless she was American she wasn't allowed to use the word awesome?

Also, the I can't think of rebuttal??? There was no rebuttal to be had, she was complimenting Probeeights post, as was I?????

[Crimson Dynamo]

Well, maybe I took you up wrong, as this is all reading words only, I can't pick up your tone but to me it implied that unless she was American she wasn't allowed to use the word awesome?

Also, the I can't think of rebuttal??? There was no rebuttal to be had, she was complimenting Probeeights post, as was I?????

Awesome is an insidious creep over word from the USA, just like ending every sentence on the UP (like a question?)

Mind you, what we abhor about the USA we tend to adopt 5 years later. Or at least, I guess so....:spin:

[Niamh.]

Awesome is an insidious creep over word from the USA, just like ending every sentence on the UP (like a question?)

Mind you, what we abhor about the USA we tend to adopt 5 years later. Or at least, I guess so....:spin:

Are you taking a pop at me now for ending my sentences as question? I am looking for an answer, so they are questions!

There are lots of words people use that have originated in other countries, that's not a crime is it?

[Stu]

straw

man

city

Arizona (which coincidently is in America, I have heard it looks awesome)
Wow. Incredible argument.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Wow. Incredible argument.

"Repped. Who knows. His church might have banned the use of the word 'awesome'. "



:dance::elephant::dance:

[Stu]

"Repped. Who knows. His church might have banned the use of the word 'awesome'. "



:dance::elephant::dance:
Well it did sound strange that you questioned why she used the word awesome, then basically denied her the right to an opinion by telling her it was not awesome because, god forbid, somebody agreed with me and not you.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Well it did sound strange that you questioned why she used the word awesome, then basically denied her the right to an opinion by telling her it was not awesome because, god forbid, somebody agreed with me and not you.

and i did not even mention the odious use of the word.. repped (wtf)

any minute now someone will be saying "dude"


this is not the Wire, its the UK

[Stu]

and i did not even mention the odious use of the word.. repped (wtf)

any minute now someone will be saying "dude"


this is not the Wire, its the UK
Well for a start, I am not living in the UK. Number two, repped is used on dozens of forums, including the People's Republic Of Cork, which is where I picked it up. A Cork forum. An Irish Cork forum.

I find it strange that you are unwilling to get into debates that could possibly test your faith, yet your getting your vagina in a tangle because somebody strung the letters r-e-p-p-e and d together?

Your special, aren't you?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Well for a start, I am not living in the UK. Number two, repped is used on dozens of forums, including the People's Republic Of Cork, which is where I picked it up. A Cork forum. An Irish Cork forum.

I find it strange that you are unwilling to get into debates that could possibly test your faith, yet your getting your vagina in a tangle because somebody strung the letters r-e-p-p-e and d together?

Your special, aren't you?

Every Christian has their faith tested daily, not by those who have no real grasp of Christianity, but by those who do.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Dude!

[Wildcat!]

and i did not even mention the odious use of the word.. repped (wtf)

any minute now someone will be saying "dude"


this is not the Wire, its the UK


YOu are making yourself look like an idiot now. All credibility that you may have had, because of your religious views (which everyone is entitled to), is completely lost with your stupid pops at people expressions, and words that they choose to use.
And to think I actually was taking your views seriously. YOu lose, when you turn around and start to belittle, and insult people, instead of making your points.

[MiuMiu]

Well for a start, I am not living in the UK. Number two, repped is used on dozens of forums, including the People's Republic Of Cork, which is where I picked it up. A Cork forum. An Irish Cork forum.

I find it strange that you are unwilling to get into debates that could possibly test your faith, yet your getting your vagina in a tangle because somebody strung the letters r-e-p-p-e and d together?

Your special, aren't you?

This is too funny lol.
:joker: