Are there people who think JESUS was a myth?

[Crimson Dynamo]

In this day and age, or is that yet another internet rumour?

[NettoSuperstar!]

I havent seen anyone deny Jesus's existence only him bein the son of god and all the immacuate conception marlarkey etc

[Niamh.]

I havent seen anyone deny Jesus's existence only him bein the son of god and all the immacuate conception marlarkey etc

Yes, this ^^^^

I think people just question the validity of the him being the son of God and if the miracles attributed to him etc. are true, that's what people question

[Crimson Dynamo]

We have more written evidence about the life of Jesus than any other sub 10th century historical character - and i mean a LOT more.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Sooo...

[Niamh.]

We have more written evidence about the life of Jesus than any other sub 10th century historical character - and i mean a LOT more.

Yes but it's all second hand evidence and stories.

[Stu]

We have more written evidence about the life of Jesus than any other sub 10th century historical character - and i mean a LOT more.
And how do you know the strangers who wrote about his life were completely without agenda? It was only a handful of men, after all. And no doubt the old stories inspired the new ones. And many of these men would have read and believed in the Old Testament and thus would have subconsciously written the New Testament to fulfill the Old's prophecies as accurately as possible. Jesus could have made this so much easier if ... you know ... he traveled to each and every culture in the world instead of relying on a group of second hand strangers to spread SUCH an important message. You would think. No? He is the freaking messiah, like.

Anyway. Enough of me and my rationality.

By the way, I am not doubting that Jesus existed. He most certainly did.

And this thread reeks of preaching. Sorry. There is another thread directly about Christianity that is still being discussed which your views could have fitted into.

It's also worth mentioning once again that Jesus was a Jew. He believed in the Old Testament and the story of creationism. He believed in Original Sin, Adam & Eve, Noah and the worldwide flood. And obviously this is completely incompatible with the scientific evidence that the earth is in fact more than 4,000 years old.

Perhaps he was capable of amazing things, but as a Jew he channeled it through the Abrahamic God and believed himself to be the son of god.

After all, if we were followers of, say, Religion X, and there was no scientific evidence or enlgitened views to discredit our staunch worship, and if we found out we could heal people, wouldn't we attribute it to the amazing powers of Religion X?

Of course we would.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Yes but it's all second hand evidence and stories.

as opposed to what?

CCTV from the garden of gethsemane :joker:

[Crimson Dynamo]

snip
It's also worth mentioning once again that Jesus was a Jew. He believed in the Old Testament and the story of creationism. He believed in Original Sin, Adam & Eve, Noah and the worldwide flood. And obviously this is completely incompatible with the scientific evidence that the earth is in fact more than 4,000 years old.

snip.[/U]

that was a date the Bishop of Usher (rather wrongly) came up with in the 17th century! - not Jesus

[Niamh.]

as opposed to what?

CCTV from the garden of gethsemane :joker:

I'm not suggesting an alternative, smarty pants!! I'm just telling you what it is which is not very reliable evidence! If you choose to believe it all then thats your prerogative but I don't expect me to!

[Crimson Dynamo]

I'm not suggesting an alternative, smarty pants!! I'm just telling you what it is which is not very reliable evidence! If you choose to believe it all then thats your prerogative but I don't expect me to!

what type of historical evidence do you rely on that is better than say eyewitness accounts?

[Stu]

that was a date the Bishop of Usher (rather wrongly) came up with in the 17th century! - not Jesus
So? Jesus still believed in Adam & Eve. Do you? Do you believe all life was destroyed after the flood and that every kangaroo in the world is somehow descended from the two that somehow made it onto the worlds biggest, and presumably, most crash proof ark? What about the dinosaurs? How big was this ark?

as opposed to what?

CCTV from the garden of gethsemane :joker:
He was the messiah. You would think he could do anything he wanted, as opposed to letting the saving of our entire race depend on letting a handful of strangers spread the message. Just saying.

Of course, the real question was how many Jesus' there was!!!

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/surfeit.htm

Is it unreasonable to ask just who recorded not only one of the last prayers of the godman but also the last occasion when the "living" superhero was with his acolytes? The only possible witnesses were asleep.

'And he said, "Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt."
And he cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, "Simon, sleepest thou? Couldest not thou watch one hour?
Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak."
And again he went away, and prayed, and spake the same words.
And when he returned, he found them asleep again, (for their eyes were heavy,) neither wist they what to answer him.
And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, "Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners."

– Mark 14.36,41 (Matthew's version is almost identical, Luke has a shortened version and John omits the scene entirely.)


But of course as sacred theatre – a fabula praetexta – such paramulations back and forth and rhetorical declamations to an audience are precisely what we would expect.

'Jesus of Nazareth' supposedly lived in what is the most well-documented period of antiquity – the first century of the Christian era – yet not a single non-Christian source mentions the miracle worker from the sky. All references – including the notorious insertions in Josephus – stem from partisan Christian sources (and Josephus himself, much argued over, was not even born until after the supposed crucifixion). The horrendous truth is that the Christian Jesus was manufactured from plundered sources, re-purposed for the needs of the early Church.

It is not with a human being that the Jesus myth begins. Christ is not a deified man but a humanised god who happened to be given the name Yeshu. Those real Jesuses, those that lived and died within normal human parameters, may have left stories and legends behind, later cannibalised by Christian scribes as source material for their own hero, but it is not with any flesh and blood rebel/rabbi/wonder-worker that the story begins. Rather, its genesis is in theology itself.

The archetypal Jewish hero was Joshua (the successor of Moses) otherwise known as Yeshua ben Nun (‘Jesus of the fish’). Since the name Jesus (Yeshua or Yeshu in Hebrew, Ioshu in Greek, source of the English spelling) originally was a title (meaning ‘saviour’, derived from ‘Yahweh Saves’) probably every band in the Jewish resistance had its own hero figure sporting this moniker, among others.

Josephus, the first century Jewish historian mentions no fewer than nineteen different Yeshuas/Jesii, about half of them contemporaries of the supposed Christ! In his Antiquities, of the twenty-eight high priests who held office from the reign of Herod the Great to the fall of the Temple, no fewer than four bore the name Jesus: Jesus ben Phiabi, Jesus ben Sec, Jesus ben Damneus and Jesus ben Gamaliel. Even Saint Paul makes reference to a rival magician, preaching ‘another Jesus’ (2 Corinthians 11,4).

The problem for this notion is that absolutely nothing at all corroborates the sacred biography and yet this 'greatest story' is peppered with numerous anachronisms, contradictions and absurdities. For example, at the time that Joseph and the pregnant Mary are said to have gone off to Bethlehem for a supposed Roman census, Galilee (unlike Judaea) was not a Roman province and therefore ma and pa would have had no reason to make the journey. Even if Galilee had been imperial territory, history knows of no ‘universal census’ ordered by Augustus (nor any other emperor) – and Roman taxes were based on property ownership not on a head count. Then again, we now know that Nazareth did not exist before the second century.
Nazareth –
The Town that Theology Built



It is mentioned not at all in the Old Testament nor by Josephus, who waged war across the length and breadth of Galilee (a territory about the size of Greater London) and yet Josephus records the names of dozens of other towns. In fact most of the ‘Jesus-action’ takes place in towns of equally doubtful provenance, in hamlets so small only partisan Christians know of their existence (yet well attested pagan cities, with extant ruins, failed to make the Jesus itinerary).

What should alert us to wholesale fakery here is that practically all the events of Jesus’s supposed life appear in the lives of mythical figures of far more ancient origin. Whether we speak of miraculous birth, prodigious youth, miracles or wondrous healings – all such 'signs' had been ascribed to other gods, centuries before any Jewish holy man strolled about. Jesus’s supposed utterances and wisdom statements are equally common place, being variously drawn from Jewish scripture, neo-Platonic philosophy or commentaries made by Stoic and Cynic sages.

HAPPY CHRISTMAS!

[Niamh.]

what type of historical evidence do you rely on that is better than say eyewitness accounts?

Eye witness accounts from a handful of people who as ProbeEight already pointed out we don't know much about or what other agendas they had

[Crimson Dynamo]

Eye witness accounts from a handful of people who as ProbeEight already pointed out we don't know much about or what other agendas they had

welcome to historical evidence

[Crimson Dynamo]

So? Jesus still believed in Adam & Eve. Do you? Do you believe all life was destroyed after the flood and that every kangaroo in the world is somehow descended from the two that somehow made it onto the worlds biggest, and presumably, most crash proof ark? What about the dinosaurs? How big was this ark?


He was the messiah. You would think he could do anything he wanted, as opposed to letting the saving of our entire race depend on letting a handful of strangers spread the message. Just saying.

Of course, the real question was how many Jesus' there was!!!

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/surfeit.htm



'Jesus of Nazareth' supposedly lived in what is the most well-documented period of antiquity – the first century of the Christian era – yet not a single non-Christian source mentions the miracle worker from the sky. All references – including the notorious insertions in Josephus – stem from partisan Christian sources (and Josephus himself, much argued over, was not even born until after the supposed crucifixion). The horrendous truth is that the Christian Jesus was manufactured from plundered sources, re-purposed for the needs of the early Church.



The archetypal Jewish hero was Joshua (the successor of Moses) otherwise known as Yeshua ben Nun (‘Jesus of the fish’). Since the name Jesus (Yeshua or Yeshu in Hebrew, Ioshu in Greek, source of the English spelling) originally was a title (meaning ‘saviour’, derived from ‘Yahweh Saves’) probably every band in the Jewish resistance had its own hero figure sporting this moniker, among others.





HAPPY CHRISTMAS!

and in a similar post I could cut and paste

9/11 was caused by the USA government and was ordered by George Bush. However I could back that up with some youtube stuff too and a picture of a cloud with the Devils face in it.

It is all about source work my dear Holmes
:xyxwave:

[Niamh.]

ProbeEight - On that point about the Dinosaurs, my husband told my daughter to ask her teacher about where the Dinosaurs fit in to the Adam & Eve story and do you know what she said?????? Oh the Dinosaurs were a mistake lol!!! Can you believe that????

[Stu]

Again you completely dodged any point I raised and made an abstract comparison to an entirely different event.

What was the point in opening this thread if your faith is so blind that your not open to actual discussion? Read my post, try and counter every point made in both those links, then get back to me sister.

[Stu]

ProbeEight - On that point about the Dinosaurs, my husband told my daughter to ask her teacher about where the Dinosaurs fit in to the Adam & Eve story and do you know what she said?????? Oh the Dinosaurs were a mistake lol!!! Can you believe that????
Many Christians will tell you the dinosaurs, along with fossils, were put here as a test from god. Because apparently, ****ing with our heads by telling us two specie of every animal on the planet made it, somehow, into the one ship was not enough.

[Niamh.]

Many Christians will tell you the dinosaurs, along with fossils, were put here as a test from god. Because apparently, ****ing with our heads by telling us two specie of every animal on the planet made it, somehow, into the one ship was not enough.

lol, hmmm, Fossils, to me would be as good as CCTV footage as far as good evidence goes!

[Crimson Dynamo]

Again you completely dodged any point I raised and made an abstract comparison to an entirely different event.

What was the point in opening this thread if your faith is so blind that your not open to actual discussion? Read my post, try and counter every point made in both those links, then get back to me sister.

you made no point you simply cut and paste some random text from a bog standard new village atheist website

and you committed the bog standard forum crime by saying "you did not answer my question"

I am not your personal google. If you have questions then research yourself using the same method that you found "your" questions.

[Crimson Dynamo]

lol, hmmm, Fossils, to me would be as good as CCTV footage as far as good evidence goes!

fossils of Jesus and his apostles?

:hugesmile:

[Stu]

Also, to raise another point, the following occurred to me about LeatherTrumpet's post.

and in a similar post I could cut and paste

9/11 was caused by the USA government and was ordered by George Bush. However I could back that up with some youtube stuff too and a picture of a cloud with the Devils face in it.

It is all about source work my dear Holmes

And in a similar post I could cut and paste

There was a Jewish superman called Jesus who came to earth to save us from the sin through sacrificing himself on a tree so that we could symbolical eat his flesh and live forever.

It is all about source work my dear Holmes

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Shot. In. The. Foot.

Damn, I am having fun.

[Niamh.]

fossils of Jesus and his apostles?

:hugesmile:

LOL no silly!! The dinosaurs!!:joker:

[Stu]

you made no point you simply cut and paste some random text from a bog standard new village atheist website

and you committed the bog standard forum crime by saying "you did not answer my question"

I am not your personal google. If you have questions then research yourself using the same method that you found "your" questions.
Excellent arguments as usual. I suppose it was Google that recorded what Jesus said in the garden WHEN ALL THE OTHER APOSTLES AROUND HIM WERE ASLEEP?

The fact that I copied and pasted makes no bearing on my argument. The website still raises dozens of completely valid points. Like the FACT that 'Jesus of Nazareth' supposedly lived in what is the most well-documented period of antiquity – the first century of the Christian era – yet not a single non-Christian source mentions the miracle worker from the sky.

Or the FACT that ALL his miracles and acts appeared before in other characters of ancient mythology?

Blind faith. No getting through to you. I pity the fool.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Also, to raise another point, the following occurred to me about LeatherTrumpet's post.





HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Shot. In. The. Foot.

Damn, I am having fun.


oh the irony of misplaced self congratulation.....
:devil:

[Stu]

LOL no silly!! The dinosaurs!!:joker:
We have dinosaur fossils of course. But for some strange reason, dinosaurs don't put in a single appearance in the Bible. Then again, I cant find the word 'chocolate' in the Bible, and the Christian tradition these days is to celebrate the death and resurrection of the messiah by telling children and bunnyrabbit left chocolate eggs everywhere.

Yeaaaaah.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Excellent arguments as usual. I suppose it was Google that recorded what Jesus said in the garden WHEN ALL THE OTHER APOSTLES AROUND HIM WERE ASLEEP?

The fact that I copied and pasted makes no bearing on my argument. The website still raises dozens of completely valid points. Like the FACT that 'Jesus of Nazareth' supposedly lived in what is the most well-documented period of antiquity – the first century of the Christian era – yet not a single non-Christian source mentions the miracle worker from the sky.

Or the FACT that ALL his miracles and acts appeared before in other characters of ancient mythology?

Blind faith. No getting through to you. I pity the fool.


again with an insult to dilute any point you have and to highlight your own doubts about the validity of your own "faith"

I reckon you could be close to being born again

[Crimson Dynamo]

We have dinosaur fossils of course. But for some strange reason, dinosaurs don't put in a single appearance in the Bible. Then again, I cant find the word 'chocolate' in the Bible, and the Christian tradition these days is to celebrate the death and resurrection of the messiah by telling children and bunnyrabbit left chocolate eggs everywhere.

Yeaaaaah.

that comes from German tradition and not the Bible


another post

another example of your lack of knowledge :nono:

[Stu]

again with an insult to dilute any point you have and to highlight your own doubts about the validity of your own "faith"

I reckon you could be close to being born again
Again not one single argument for anything I have said. And if you think quoting Mr. T makes me close to being a born again, I really do pity the fool.

Now I get it. YOU recorded what Jesus said in the garden! How could I have been so stupid?

[Niamh.]

oh the irony of misplaced self congratulation.....
:devil:


I don't think it's misplaced at all, ProbeEight has very valid points and is a fantastic poster.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I don't think it's misplaced at all, ProbeEight has very valid points and is a fantastic poster.

I disagree with you and think he lacks knowledge and is insulting and whilst I am on about it you are nowt but a lickspittle

(see how this helps the debate?)

[Crimson Dynamo]

Again not one single argument for anything I have said. And if you think quoting Mr. T makes me close to being a born again, I really do pity the fool.

Now I get it. YOU recorded what Jesus said in the garden! How could I have been so stupid?

you are too hard on yourself albeit somewhat accurate

[Niamh.]

I disagree with you and think he lacks knowledge and is insulting and whilst I am on about it you are nowt but a lickspittle

(see how this helps the debate?)

Lickspittle? WTF is that, I'm guessing it's not nice! and you say he's insulting lol:joker:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Lickspittle? WTF is that, I'm guessing it's not nice! and you say he's insulting lol:joker:

are you experiencing sudden draughts just above your head?

[Niamh.]

are you experiencing sudden draughts just above your head?

I won't lower myself to insulting you! My mother always told me if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all!!!

You're insults are very Un-Christian like you know, shouldn't you turn the other cheek???

[Crimson Dynamo]

I won't lower myself to insulting you! My mother always told me if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all!!!

You're insults are very Un-Christian like you know, shouldn't you turn the other cheek???

"Originally Posted by Niamhxo View Post
LOL no silly!! The dinosaurs!!"


She should have concentrated on lying instead:nono:

[Niamh.]

"Originally Posted by Niamhxo View Post
LOL no silly!! The dinosaurs!!"


She should have concentrated on lying instead:nono:

lol, you think that's an insult???? It wasn't, I was answering your question

and btw, a liar is one thing I'm not

[Stu]

I am insulting for quoting Mr. T. I am unintelligent however you refuse to refute any point the links have made. You still seem clueless as to who recorded what Jesus said in the garden, or how every specie on the planet fitted into one ark. Or any of the other things I mentioned. That, and the fact that you are deluded into thinking just because I dont believe what you believe, I must be some poor faithless boy who needs to be born again. The only argument you ever actually give is that I am not worth the argument, because I have a poor understanding of Christianity. Because, of course, Christianity is so distinct and concise that only one version of the bible exists. And only one church exists. And only one interpretation exists, right?

Sorry, I am doing it again. I have rationality tourettes, I am afraid. What a great defender of the faith you make, brother. Love thy lord. You tell em', kid. Go in peace.

In short, like others are discovering, you are not worth the time. And that is my final say on the subject.

[Niamh.]

I am insulting for quoting Mr. T. I am unintelligent however you refuse to refute any point the links have made. You still seem clueless as to who recorded what Jesus said in the garden, or how every specie on the planet fitted into one ark. Or any of the other things I mentioned. That, and the fact that you are deluded into thinking just because I dont believe what you believe, I must be some poor faithless boy who needs to be born again. The only argument you ever actually give is that I am not worth the argument, because I have a poor understanding of Christianity. Because, of course, Christianity is so distinct and concise that only one version of the bible exists. And only one church exists. And only one interpretation exists, right?

Sorry, I am doing it again. I have rationality tourettes, I am afraid. What a great defender of the faith you make, brother. Love thy lord. You tell em', kid. Go in peace.

In short, like others are discovering, you are not worth the time. And that is my final say on the subject.


Amen.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I am insulting for quoting Mr. T. I am unintelligent however you refuse to refute any point the links have made. You still seem clueless as to who recorded what Jesus said in the garden, or how every specie on the planet fitted into one ark. Or any of the other things I mentioned. That, and the fact that you are deluded into thinking just because I dont believe what you believe, I must be some poor faithless boy who needs to be born again. The only argument you ever actually give is that I am not worth the argument, because I have a poor understanding of Christianity. Because, of course, Christianity is so distinct and concise that only one version of the bible exists. And only one church exists. And only one interpretation exists, right?

Sorry, I am doing it again. I have rationality tourettes, I am afraid. What a great defender of the faith you make, brother. Love thy lord. You tell em', kid. Go in peace.

You have illustrated that you do not have any biblical knowledge save what you can cut and paste from a bog standard atheist site (Usher date mistake, Easter mistake)

Christianity is 2000 years old, in that time do you not think that some of the questions that you have cut and paste have been addressed by people who have dedicated their lives to dissecting the Bible and specifically the NT?

If you have questions, research them and you will find that the work has been done already.

Being a Christian is a bit more than perhaps what you think it is.

[Prole]

I believe Jesus existed. I don't believe he's the son of God. There's nothing in that book of fairytales called the Bible to suggest he did anything I've not seen David Blaine or a decent paramedic do.

[Stu]

I believe Jesus existed. I don't believe he's the son of God. There's nothing in that book of fairytales called the Bible to suggest he did anything I've not seen David Blaine or a decent paramedic do.
Well, Cris Angel is a sex god of sorts to me, but enough about that :blush:.

[Prole]

Well, Cris Angel is a sex god of sorts to me, but enough about that :blush:.

I can see where you're going with that...

[Ramsay]

Oh he was real
its just the stuff he was on about was shyte

[Crimson Dynamo]

"'Jesus of Nazareth' supposedly lived in what is the most well-documented period of antiquity – the first century of the Christian era – yet not a single non-Christian source mentions the miracle worker from the sky. All references – including the notorious insertions in Josephus – stem from partisan Christian sources (and Josephus himself, much argued over, was not even born until after the supposed crucifixion). The horrendous truth is that the Christian Jesus was manufactured from plundered sources, re-purposed for the needs of the early Church."

http://www.carm.org/apologetics/evidence-and-answers/non-biblical-accounts-new-testament-events-andor-people

and it does beg the question what non Christian sources were you looking for? - The Nazareth Mail or the Roman Times. The written word was religion back then, even Private Eye had not been invented.

[Tom4784]

I think he existed and probably was a good samaritan but I struggle to believe in the more mystical side of him. I think he was probably like a 'Mother Theresa' esque figure? In that he lived his life for others and was extremely charitable, but I think the mystical elements are metaphors of his accomplishments or deeds? Even though he might not have been how he is written in the bible it's still a good thing that he has influenced people to do good ever since regardless of belief and such.

[Crimson Dynamo]

and perhaps Mr Probe can give us the credentials of http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/?

Who is behind the website, where do they come from, what are their credentials?

I hope it is not just some guy sitting in his boxershorts in a bedsit in the Elephant and Castle?

[NettoSuperstar!]

I think he existed and probably was a good samaritan but I struggle to believe in the more mystical side of him. I think he was probably like a 'Mother Theresa' esque figure? In that he lived his life for others and was extremely charitable, but I think the mystical elements are metaphors of his accomplishments or deeds? Even though he might not have been how he is written in the bible it's still a good thing that he has influenced people to do good ever since regardless of belief and such.

Yeh thats about how I reckon it up

[Crimson Dynamo]

I think he existed and probably was a good samaritan but I struggle to believe in the more mystical side of him. I think he was probably like a 'Mother Theresa' esque figure? In that he lived his life for others and was extremely charitable, but I think the mystical elements are metaphors of his accomplishments or deeds? Even though he might not have been how he is written in the bible it's still a good thing that he has influenced people to do good ever since regardless of belief and such.

and you believe that people happily died for him, and that we talk about him now with 32% of the whole world Christian?

that is even harder to believe

[Tom4784]

and you believe that people happily died for him, and that we talk about him now with 32% of the whole world Christian?

that is even harder to believe

The bible's written by man so I think a lot of it is exageration and metaphors. I'm not particularly religious though so i'm not the best person to talk about christian history, I see Jesus as a very charitable figure who probably helped a lot of people in his life. I think that the church probably used his image to give itself a central image to build itself around.

[NettoSuperstar!]

and you believe that people happily died for him, and that we talk about him now with 32% of the whole world Christian?

that is even harder to believe

The powers that be decided to make a matyr out of him and well...pretty much enforced that over the years

[Crimson Dynamo]

The powers that be decided to make a matyr out of him and well...pretty much enforced that over the years

it is way too unlikely that (if you read Acts) the Church would have developed in the teeth of such persecution if peeps did not believe what he said and what they saw.

[NettoSuperstar!]

it is way too unlikely that (if you read Acts) the Church would have developed in the teeth of such persecution if peeps did not believe what he said and what they saw.

I dont doubt Jesus was a great and good man but from a rational perspective you have to conclude that a lot of what is written is metaphor and...well, story telling, embellishment if you like, and people love to have some one to follow and guide them...the political and social situation contributed to peoples desire to follow a new religion and branch away from the Jewish faith and here was there new messiah

[Niamh.]

it is way too unlikely that (if you read Acts) the Church would have developed in the teeth of such persecution if peeps did not believe what he said and what they saw.


What about Scientology then? That was spawned fron L. Ron Hubbards desire to make money and have a bit of power? And look at all the followers they have. Some of them rich and powerful themselves

[NettoSuperstar!]

And look at the dominant racial groups that Islam, Christianity and Judaism are made up of, it suggests that the major religions are born out of group dynamics and power struggles within society at that time

[Stu]

I dont doubt Jesus was a great and good man but from a rational perspective you have to conclude that a lot of what is written is metaphor and...well, story telling, embellishment if you like, and people love to have some one to follow and guide them...the political and social situation contributed to peoples desire to follow a new religion and branch away from the Jewish faith and here was there new messiah
And lets not forget the sheer cult of personality involved, which Jesus did not actually resemble [he was more than likely a colored Nazarene, possibly even with dreadlocks, or a short squat man with short hair].

The hippie image, the holy white light, the long hair, it's the perfect charismatic figure. How many of us have felt drawn to Jesus, lets face it, at one time or another because he just LOOKS like such pure peace and love?

[InOne]

It is he most likely he existed, but he was not the man of the Bible.

[Stu]

"'Jesus of Nazareth' supposedly lived in what is the most well-documented period of antiquity – the first century of the Christian era – yet not a single non-Christian source mentions the miracle worker from the sky. All references – including the notorious insertions in Josephus – stem from partisan Christian sources (and Josephus himself, much argued over, was not even born until after the supposed crucifixion). The horrendous truth is that the Christian Jesus was manufactured from plundered sources, re-purposed for the needs of the early Church."

http://www.carm.org/apologetics/evidence-and-answers/non-biblical-accounts-new-testament-events-andor-people

and it does beg the question what non Christian sources were you looking for? - The Nazareth Mail or the Roman Times. The written word was religion back then, even Private Eye had not been invented.
Well, he was a pretty major figure. The most important in world history, in fact, if your Christian. And yet no other documents exist, not of Jesus himself, but of what the bible SPECIFICALLY SAYS ABOUT HIM.

Of course this may have to do with the fact that mysteriously, he only had a ministry that lasted a few years, that covered a minuscule part of the globe, and upon resurrection he appeared to those same people in that same, minuscule part of the globe. Then left all the work to these strangers to write it down, where it could be easily subject to much change and bastardization, when he went back into the sky. Pretty strange for such a powerful character who, if he wanted, could enter all our minds our simultaneously appear in each corner of the globe, after all, he is omnipotent, to act in such a way. This was hwo he spread his message of saving us? The sky, by the way, the Bible describes as 'impenetrable' because heaven was not a state of mind, no, it was right up in this impenetrable dome.

Two words : Space exploration.

Pretty odd, don't you think?

[NettoSuperstar!]

And lets not forget the sheer cult of personality involved, which Jesus did not actually resemble [he was more than likely a colored Nazarene, possibly even with dreadlocks, or a short squat man with short hair].

The hippie image, the holy white light, the long hair, it's the perfect charismatic figure. How many of us have felt drawn to Jesus, lets face it, at one time or another because he just LOOKS like such pure peace and love?

Hehe...hes so cute though

[Patrick]

I`ve recently been abit puzzled, It annoyes me in Religion class when the Teacher says..
"Jesus then said...Jesus did...and so Jesus also..."

How the **** is there ANY Proof at all of Jesus being real?
How is there any proof he had a Beard or Long Hair?
How is there any proof he was nailed to a cross?
How do we know he wasnt a Girl?


I have been brought up to belive in him and stuff but recently i`ve began to wonder if its complete bollocks the only thing I have to hold on to the fact that he might be real is that My Family have a history of seeing spirits, and obviously there is an After life then...

But then again there could be A Heaven without a Jesus!

[Stu]

Of course there is the possibility of something mystical and/or spiritual to the universe outside Jesus.

How do we know he wasnt a Girl?
You think the Christian church would worship a woman as there messiah? Especially back in those times? They would rather a goat!

How is there any proof he was nailed to a cross?
Well, crucifixion was common in that time, and was the likely punishment for him presenting himself as a son of God to the pharisees and other Jewish elite. It's what happened AFTER the crucifixion, now that's the real fun...

Also, for the record, I think religion has no place in a school.

[Stu]

and perhaps Mr Probe can give us the credentials of http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/?

Perhaps you can give us credentials for the Bible?

:joker::joker::joker::joker::joker::joker::joker:

[Tom]

How the **** is there ANY Proof at all of Jesus being real?

Apparently there is more proof to suggest Jesus existed than Julius Caesar. That might just be a myth though I dunno

How is there any proof he had a Beard or Long Hair?

Drawings/descriptions etc

How is there any proof he was nailed to a cross?

Same as above

How do we know he wasnt a Girl?

You don't get female sons

I think he probably did exist, but probably not who he said he was. Some people think he was an illusionist or a doctor or something

[andyman]

The Jews and the Romans did have a thing for writing things down..

[Stu]

Drawings/descriptions etc
How is that proof that he had long hair and a beard? If that was the case you would believe him to be the messiah. After all, it is written down...

The western image of Christ is completely false and that is a fact. Not even just the fact that he is white, but how white he is. And everything about his facial features. He looks like a ****ing stoner from Oakland.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Manuscript evidence for superior New Testament reliability is below


http://www.carm.org/questions/about-bible/manuscript-evidence-superior-new-testament-reliability

[Stu]

That website poses a terrible argument, with abstract comparisons to Plato & Homer, and merely refutes what we already know. Nobody is denying the New Testament actually exists, and was actually written within 70 years of Jesus' death. Of course it was written. A ghost writer hardly wrote it in the last few hundred years. What we are doubting is the content and the men that wrote it. And the fact that it was a rather strange way for the savior of the cosmos to spread the message.

Failed argument. Fortunately for me, while there is NOT proof that the contents of the New Testament are little more than over embellished fable, there is plenty of evidence out there to suggest the world is more than 4,000 years old, seemingly against the beliefs of all the New Testament writers and even Jesus himself.

Shucks.

[Crimson Dynamo]

That website poses a terrible argument, with abstract comparisons to Plato & Homer, and merely refutes what we already know. Nobody is denying the New Testament actually exists, and was actually written within 70 years of Jesus' death. Of course it was written. A ghost writer hardly wrote it in the last few hundred years. What we are doubting is the content and the men that wrote it. And the fact that it was a rather strange way for the savior of the cosmos to spread the message.

Failed argument. Fortunately for me, while there is NOT proof that the contents of the New Testament are little more than over embellished fable, there is plenty of evidence out there to suggest the world is more than 4,000 years old, seemingly against the beliefs of all the New Testament writers and even Jesus himself.

Shucks.


Can you provide the evidence that "... seemingly against the beliefs of all the New Testament writers and even Jesus himself. "

just the quotes from the NT would be great:

[Stu]

Can you provide the evidence that "... seemingly against the beliefs of all the New Testament writers and even Jesus himself. "

just the quotes from the NT would be great:
Why do you always reply to half of every post somebody makes and ignore the other half? It's like trying to beat arguments out of you with ... a cross.

You ARE aware Jesus was a Jew? The son of the abrahamic God? He believed in the Torah?

But if you insist...

In Christ's day, the prevailing philosophy on origins included evolution and long ages of earth history. Their view, of course, was not Darwinian evolution, but it held that the earth and the universe, acting on itself by the forces of nature (which were given names by some) had organized itself into its present state, and was responsible for all of life. The same was true for the philosophy of Moses' day, as he prepared the book of Genesis.

Genesis stands in opposition to such a view, insisting that a transcendent God, external to the universe had called the universe and all it contains into existence from nothing. Genesis further reveals the steps God took during a six-day period to bring this about, and reveals that those days were only thousands of years ago, not millions or billions.

When God stepped into the space/time universe which He had created He stepped into a world dominated by those who denied His creative acts, and whose intellectual descendants still refuse to honor Him as Creator. And so, as we try to form our own beliefs about creation, it would behoove us to discern His views on creation and to believe likewise. When we examine His teachings, we will find that Jesus was not only the Creator, He was also a "creationist." Let us briefly look at some of the passages which reveal this: No natural process was responsible for creation—rather, God, Himself, created: ". . .from the beginning of the creation which God created" (Mark 13:19).

The cosmos had a definite beginning. Matter is not eternal: "...such as was not since the beginning of the world (Greek kosmos) to this time" (Matthew 24:21).

The world had been "founded." Not just coalesced from interstellar dust. ". . .for Thou lovest Me before the foundation of the world" (John 17:24).

Even the sun was of God's doing: ". ..He maketh His sun to rise" (Matthew 5:45).

As to plants and animals, each created "kind" was of a different sort: "Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles" (Matthew 7:16)? Furthermore, God had made provision for even the birds (see Genesis 1:30): "Behold the fowls of the air: . . .your heavenly Father feedeth them" (Matthew 6:26).

The Sabbath was a day of rest in commemoration of the completed creation: "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath" (Mark 2:27).

Men and women were created at the start, not 4,000,000,000 years after the start: "From the beginning of creation God made them male and female" (Mark 10:6), and the union of Adam and Eve forms the basis of our doctrine of marriage: "Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh" (Matthew 19:6).

The two supposedly contradictory accounts of creation in Genesis 1 and 2 are fully compatible: "Have ye not read that He. . .made them male and female [quoting Genesis 1 :27], and said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: And they twain shall be one flesh?" [quoting Genesis 2:24] (Matthew 19:5).

These and other teachings of Christ, when coupled with the total lack of any reference to evolution or long ages, give us complete confidence that our Lord, the Creator, accepted the Genesis account of creation in its most literal sense. Dare we believe otherwise?

1. The Bible nowhere allows for long ages.
One can search the Scriptures (see my book Biblical Creationism for proof) from beginning to end without finding even a hint of evolution or long ages. To Jesus, every "jot or one tittle" of Scripture was divinely inspired (Matthew 5:18) and He warned us severely against adding any other words to it (Revelation 22:18). The Bible, therefore, would certainly not leave the vital doctrine of creation open to human speculation.

2. The Bible explicitly states how and when creation took place.
Although many evangelicals have long equivocated as to the meaning of the "days" of creation, this type of ad hoc handling of Scripture is never justified in the context, and Christ Himself would never have interpreted them as indefinite ages of some kind. Not only is "day" (Hebrew, yom) defined in this context the first time it is used (Genesis 1:5), but the writer conclusively restricted its interpretation to the literal meaning by numbering the days ("first day," "second day," etc.) and by indicating their boundaries ("evening and morning"), both of which restrictions elsewhere in the Old Testament limit the meaning to literal days. The question seems to be even more firmly settled when God wrote with His own finger that "in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the [seventh] day, and hallowed it" (Exodus 20:11), thereby basing our calendar's seven-day week on this primeval creation week. Jesus referred to this divine example when He said that "The sabbath was made for man" (Mark 2:27) to meet our weekly need of rest from work.

3. The Lord Jesus recognized that men and women existed right from the beginning.
The current opinion is that the cosmos evolved about 16 billion years ago, the earth about 4.6 billion, primitive life perhaps two billion, and human life about one million years ago. The Lord Jesus, on the other hand (who was there, having Himself created all things—note John 1:1-3), taught that men and women were made essentially at the same time as the cosmos itself, when He said that "from the beginning God . . . made them male and female" (Mark 10:6). "The beginning" obviously was a reference to Genesis 1:1, and Christ was specifically citing Genesis 1:26.


But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female (Mark 10:6).This makes it clear that Jesus taught the creation was young, for Adam and Eve existed ‘from the beginning ’–not billions of years after the universe and Earth came into existence.

Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh (Matthew 19:6)

Have ye not read that He…made them male and female [quoting Genesis 1 :27], and said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: And they twain shall be one flesh? [quoting Genesis 2:24] (Matthew 19:5)

Heck, even if you disagree with these biblical quotes and make the excuse that Jesus was NOT a creationist, which is odd considering HE IS GOD AND THE OLD TESTAMENT IS MEANT TO BE GOD'S DIRECT WORD STATING CREATION it proves my other point that the Bible is open to SO MANY interpretations that it is fallacy.

You believe in the Trinity, right? One of the central doctrines of Christianity that states Jesus is the son of God and in a sense, God himself, right? AND he was a Jew who believed in the Torah, right? So why would he not believe what is essential HIS OWN STORY/HIS FATHERS OWN STORY about HIS/HIS FATHERS creation?

It's like an extra two hours being added onto the Titanic movie, stating the ship did not in fact sink, there never was a ship, and Leonardo DiCaprio does not in fact exist, nor did he ever.

The point is beyond ridiculous. Once again, the Bible is completely incompatible with the proof that the world is more than 4,000 years old.

Thank you and goodnight.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Why do you always reply to half of every post somebody makes and ignore the other half? It's like trying to beat arguments out of you with ... a cross.

You ARE aware Jesus was a Jew? The son of the abrahamic God? He believed in the Torah?

But if you insist...<snip>

and my question was where did you get the 4000 years from in the Bible, or from what Jesus said "there is plenty of evidence out there to suggest the world is more than 4,000 years old, seemingly against the beliefs of all the New Testament writers and even Jesus himself.

and your un-sourced cut and paste "article" did not say.

nice

by the way did you say anything about the jesusneverexisted site, ie who wrote it and what are its credentials?

[Stu]

and my question was where did you get the 4000 years from in the Bible, or from what Jesus said "there is plenty of evidence out there to suggest the world is more than 4,000 years old, seemingly against the beliefs of all the New Testament writers and even Jesus himself.

and your un-sourced cut and paste "article" did not say.

nice

by the way did you say anything about the jesusneverexisted site, ie who wrote it and what are its credentials?
The articles I pasted were from a Christian Apologists site. Yes, Christians who believe the world is only 4,000 years old. And they are full of quotes directly from the Bible about Jesus speaking of such creationist topics as Adam & Eve. Now it might not exactly be 4,000 years, that's obviously just a creationist estimate thrown out there, but whatever. Jesus believed in Adam & Eve. He believed God created two humans at the very start. Actually, he believed HE created two humans from the very start I suppose, considering Jesus is God. You cant refute it. Jesus believed in Genesis. He was a Jew. It was his fathers, and in a sense, his word. His story of creation. But you choose to ignore all of that in my previous post. How mature of you.

As for the Jesus Never Existed website, who knows. Look it up yourself if you are so interested, like you always tell me. I am not banging the mother of it's creator. I have no idea who is behind it. You really should not be asking questions about source and truth, especially when you are a believer in the Bible. Well, at least most of it. You don't seem to want to believe in the Genesis creation story, even though that's what your messiah believed.

A pity. This is getting more hilarious by the minuet.

[Beastie]

I am Jesus

[Stu]

I am Jesus
Praise the loah-dah! :devil:

[Crimson Dynamo]

The articles I pasted were from a Christian Apologists site. Yes, Christians who believe the world is only 4,000 years old. And they are full of quotes directly from the Bible about Jesus speaking of such creationist topics as Adam & Eve. Now it might not exactly be 4,000 years, that's obviously just a creationist estimate thrown out there, but whatever. Jesus believed in Adam & Eve. He believed God created two humans at the very start. Actually, he believed HE created two humans from the very start I suppose, considering Jesus is God. You cant refute it. Jesus believed in Genesis. He was a Jew. It was his fathers, and in a sense, his word. His story of creation. But you choose to ignore all of that in my previous post. How mature of you.

As for the Jesus Never Existed website, who knows. Look it up yourself if you are so interested, like you always tell me. I am not banging the mother of it's creator. I have no idea who is behind it. You really should not be asking questions about source and truth, especially when you are a believer in the Bible. Well, at least most of it. You don't seem to want to believe in the Genesis creation story, even though that's what your messiah believed.

A pity. This is getting more hilarious by the minuet.


F
A
I
L

:xyxwave:

[teabag.]

i think all the stories about jesus and that is just a load of stories made up and then called the bible
i dont beliee in jesus

[Crimson Dynamo]

i think all the stories about jesus and that is just a load of stories made up and then called the bible
i dont beliee in jesus

Did you come to that conclusion before or after you read the New testament?

[Dr.Gonzo]

I'm pretty sure Jesus to some extent existed. However, I am also sure he didn't have super powers.

[Stu]

So your argument for defending Christianity is the following :

F
A
I
L

???

Right. Just wanted to get that cleared up.

[Crimson Dynamo]

So your argument for defending Christianity is the following :

F
A
I
L

???

Right. Just wanted to get that cleared up.


rubbish come back

you still lose:xyxwave:

[Stu]

rubbish come back

you still lose:xyxwave:

Come back to what exactly? All you did was post 'FAIL'. What the **** else was I supposed to say? Is this a game of scrabble now?

Christ your dumb. At this point you just deserve insults. If your not offering up arguments, theres little else I can do honny.

[Crimson Dynamo]

He who can burn with enmity
can also burn with the love of God,
but he who is coldly hostile
will always find the way closed

[Dr.Gonzo]

He who has no fish, will always chew yond sausage.

[Stu]

He who can burn with enmity
can also burn with the love of God,
but he who is coldly hostile
will always find the way closed
You can lead a horse to water, but you cant make him drink it.

Your go.

[Vicky.]

LT, you are either on a windup mission or have total blind faith.

Surely if you believe in these fairy stories the least you can do it try to think up a mature, adult reply, instead of writing FAIL to a well thought out post.

And I believe there was a man named Jesus...but he was just a good man, nothing more.

[Sticks]

LeatherTrumpet as someone from the same side of the tracks as you, so to speak I was wondering what you are trying to achieve in starting this thread. The outcome was prefictable. It is one thing responding to attacks from that earlier thread that was started with that diagram, but you courted the response you got.

all that happened is a slanging match and some of the things you said did not help matters or the cause.

There is a way of conducting apologetics which takes time to learn. Remember we are told to give a defence for the hope that lies with in us, it does not say go on the attack. If someone challenges us, then we answer them. Pushing it down thir throats does not work. Winning arguments does not equate to winning souls. Remember it's not hard sell but soft sell that achieves most. More flies are caught with honey than vinegar.

As for the question, yes some people do deny that Jesus exist. Even if you take Josephus out of the equation that still leaves us with the writings of Tacitus, Pliny and Polycarp to name a few. You also forgot to mention the Talmud which registered Jesus existance and mentioned miracles, but attributed them to demonic powers.

Historical evidence does point to the historicity of Jesus of Nazereth, what people make of him, then becomes another issue.

[Sticks]

Surely if you believe in these fairy stories the least you can do it try to think up a mature, adult reply, instead of writing FAIL to a well thought out post.


To be fair it was ProbeEight who said FAIL, LeatherTrumpet merely quoted it.

I have other thoughts on this matter which I am to put elsewhere.

[Vicky.]

F
A
I
L

:xyxwave:

For sticks...

In reply to a rather large post by Probe eight...

[Crimson Dynamo]

For sticks...

In reply to a rather large post by Probe eight...

Yes but VickyJ

"Surely if you believe in these fairy stories..."

now that is hardly pushing on the debate, it is merely debasing it based on your own predujice. And in that token you do something that sounds like Pail?

[Crimson Dynamo]

LeatherTrumpet as someone from the same side of the tracks as you, so to speak I was wondering what you are trying to achieve in starting this thread. The outcome was prefictable. It is one thing responding to attacks from that earlier thread that was started with that diagram, but you courted the response you got.

all that happened is a slanging match and some of the things you said did not help matters or the cause.

There is a way of conducting apologetics which takes time to learn. Remember we are told to give a defence for the hope that lies with in us, it does not say go on the attack. If someone challenges us, then we answer them. Pushing it down thir throats does not work. Winning arguments does not equate to winning souls. Remember it's not hard sell but soft sell that achieves most. More flies are caught with honey than vinegar.

As for the question, yes some people do deny that Jesus exist. Even if you take Josephus out of the equation that still leaves us with the writings of Tacitus, Pliny and Polycarp to name a few. You also forgot to mention the Talmud which registered Jesus existance and mentioned miracles, but attributed them to demonic powers.

Historical evidence does point to the historicity of Jesus of Nazereth, what people make of him, then becomes another issue.


and of course you are correct but there really can be no debate here due to the age and lack of religious knowledge of the posters. It is akin to debating football tactics at the Women's Guild.

Sometimes it is good to remind people that an alternative view to their own is around. But yes you are right.:blush:

[Vicky.]

Yes but VickyJ

"Surely if you believe in these fairy stories..."

now that is hardly pushing on the debate, it is merely debasing it based on your own predujice. And in that token you do something that sounds like Pail?

Nah, I have debated about the same thing countless times, only to have christians views forced down my throat, and all posts questioning anything ignored. So I wont bother, just thought I'd comment on your rather humourous way of attempting adult debate. Thats all.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Nah, I have debated about the same thing countless times, only to have christians views forced down my throat, and all posts questioning anything ignored. So I wont bother, just thought I'd comment on your rather humourous way of attempting adult debate. Thats all.

nice wriggle.

:spin:

(have a look at Probe8 and his posts and see why conventional adult debate would not be suited in reply)

[Novo]

HV9VzsXCFh4

[Vicky.]

nice wriggle.

:spin:

(have a look at Probe8 and his posts and see why conventional adult debate would not be suited in reply)

No wriggle, Check out the other threads on christianity for my views.

And ProbeEight has asked some interesting questions, which have been avoided....so again, seems its going to be the same.

[Crimson Dynamo]

No wriggle, Check out the other threads on christianity for my views.

And ProbeEight has asked some interesting questions, which have been avoided....so again, seems its going to be the same.

Probe8 cut and pasted some standard "conspiracy theory" questions from an unattributed anti-Christian site that have been answered ad nauseum throughout history.

they were not avoided I told him to use the same means he used to generate them to answer them, ie google.

[Sticks]

For sticks...

In reply to a rather large post by Probe eight...

Ok

I was not looking far back enough, ProbeEight did the same thing a few posts later and LeatherTrumpet quoted him.

[Vicky.]

Probe8 cut and pasted some standard "conspiracy theory" questions from an unattributed anti-Christian site that have been answered ad nauseum throughout history.

they were not avoided I told him to use the same means he used to generate them to answer them, ie google.

I love how you say conspiracy theories as if christianity and such are fact, or something that shouldnt be questioned :D

And of course they havent been answered. In fact whenever I see a question like any of them, the same answer is given...'history...blah blah...check history...already answered...' Strange how noone can think up any answers TODAY isnt it? Or ever find these places where the answers are?

[Novo]

LzG0UPNOKWI

[Crimson Dynamo]

I love how you say conspiracy theories as if christianity and such are fact, or something that shouldnt be questioned :D

And of course they havent been answered. In fact whenever I see a question like any of them, the same answer is given...'history...blah blah...check history...already answered...' Strange how noone can think up any answers TODAY isnt it? Or ever find these places where the answers are?

is because the questions relate to the Bible and History?

if there was a question about Christianity today then it would relate to today but inevitably they all are

"well who recorded Jesus when he said the Lords prayer" or "does incest not get promoted by Lot and his daughters" or "why does the OT say kill children and not eat shellfish" bla bla bla

[Sticks]

and of course you are correct but there really can be no debate here due to the age and lack of religious knowledge of the posters. It is akin to debating football tactics at the Women's Guild.

Comments like that only inflame and do not add anything to debate. That way you come across as aggressive and arrogant. People see right through to that and you completely undermine anything you may add.


Sometimes it is good to remind people that an alternative view to their own is around. But yes you are right.:blush:

I do remind people there are alternative viewpoints, but I would hpe I did it in a more gentle manner.

LeatherTrumpet, if you want to engage in apologetics, you really need to learn how to do it, not just the facts we need to refute arguments. If you end up casting aspersions on people like you did in this post, you will be seen to have lost the argument.

Again what are you hoping to achieve?

[Vicky.]

is because the questions relate to the Bible and History?

if there was a question about Christianity today then it would relate to today but inevitably they all are

"well who recorded Jesus when he said the Lords prayer" or "does incest not get promoted by Lot and his daughters" or "why does the OT say kill children and not eat shellfish" bla bla bla

Ok then.

Il ask one question.

Dinosaurs...why is there no mention of them in the bible, when we KNOW they existed?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Comments like that only inflame and do not add anything to debate. That way you come across as aggressive and arrogant. People see right through to that and you completely undermine anything you may add.



I do remind people there are alternative viewpoints, but I would hpe I did it in a more gentle manner.

LeatherTrumpet, if you want to engage in apologetics, you really need to learn how to do it, not just the facts we need to refute arguments. If you end up casting aspersions on people like you did in this post, you will be seen to have lost the argument.

Again what are you hoping to achieve?


and you see this forum as a place for apologetics?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Ok then.

Il ask one question.

Dinosaurs...why is there no mention of them in the bible, when we KNOW they existed?

well you can have these well researched and sourced sites for free:

http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/93-dinosaurs-and-the-bible

http://www.carm.org/questions/other-questions/are-dinosaurs-mentioned-bible

Personally I would say this: does the Bible and specifically Genesis record a true account of the origin of the material universe? I would say yes. On the other hand does the Bible and specifically Genesis provide information in a way that corresponds to the purposes of modern science? I would say no.

[Vicky.]

Right.

I take it you believe the adam and eve story too...in that case, can you explain how we have scientific proof of evolution.


Plus I only looked on the first of those two sites, and that doesnt answer anything.

If dinosaurs were created around the same time as everything else, and the bible states that everything was 'made' in 7 days...then humans must have been around for millions of years, not thousands.


Edit. Plus, you giving me two sites to read is you doing exactly what you were criticising ProbeEight for doing earlier on. No answers of your own?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Edit. Plus, you giving me two sites to read is you doing exactly what you were criticising ProbeEight for doing earlier on. No answers of your own?

No

I gave you two sites that are sourced and established and I gave you my opinion.

?

As I stated you have to read the Bible for what it was written for - it is not a scientific document written last week.

[Stu]

I love how you say conspiracy theories as if christianity and such are fact, or something that shouldnt be questioned :D

You nailed it. You nailed it with that one sentence better than I could ever hope to.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Christianity is a fact. Unless the people who go to my church are figments of my imagination?

[Niamh.]

Christianity is a fact. Unless the people who go to my church are figments of my imagination?

You know what she's saying LeatherTrumpet, the people who worship wasn't what she was questioning

[Crimson Dynamo]

You know what she's saying LeatherTrumpet, the people who worship wasn't what she was questioning

You can never be sure, people often ignore Christianity alive today in people and churches and just think of it as various "facts" gleaned from picking bits from the Bible.

[Niamh.]

You can never be sure, people often ignore Christianity alive today in people and churches and just think of it as various "facts" gleaned from picking bits from the Bible.

Well, I'm happy for you if you have faith in God and the bible but people have there own minds and are allowed to think and believe different things, it's what makes us all unique and interesting. And I'm sure if you end up being right God will forgive us all when we die!

[Crimson Dynamo]

Well, I'm happy for you if you have faith in God and the bible but people have there own minds and are allowed to think and believe different things, it's what makes us all unique and interesting. And I'm sure if you end up being right God will forgive us all when we die!

Unfortunately that is not Biblical and will not happen.



:devil:

[Stu]

This thread just keeps on getting better.

[Dr.Gonzo]

Unfortunately that is not Biblical and will not happen.



:devil:

I'm really hungry and my lunch break isn't for a while. If I pray hard enough, will God turn my colleague into bread?

[Crimson Dynamo]

I'm really hungry and my lunch break isn't for a while. If I pray hard enough, will God turn my colleague into bread?

I would pray for better material in the first instance..

[Dr.Gonzo]

I would pray for better material in the first instance..

My humour is an aquired taste. If you don't like it, aquire some taste.

[Crimson Dynamo]

My humour is an aquired taste. If you don't like it, aquire some taste.

as i said

[Dr.Gonzo]

as i said

Yes you did.

[Crimson Dynamo]

But even as believers should learn to look for reasons behind
their faith, skeptics must learn to look for a type of faith hidden
within their reasoning. All doubts, however skeptical and cynical
they may seem, are really a set of alternate beliefs. You cannot
doubt Belief A except from a position of faith in Belief B. For
example, if you doubt Christianity because “There can’t be just
one true religion,” you must recognize that this statement is itself
an act of faith. No one can prove it empirically, and it is not a
universal truth that everyone accepts. If you went to the Middle
East and said, “There can’t be just one true religion,” nearly everyone
would say, “Why not?” The reason you doubt Christianity’s
Belief A is because you hold unprovable Belief B. Every doubt,
therefore, is based on a leap of faith.

Some people say, “I don’t believe in Christianity because I
can’t accept the existence of moral absolutes. Everyone should
determine moral truth for him- or herself.” Is that a statement they
can prove to someone who doesn’t share it? No, it is a leap of
faith, a deep belief that individual rights operate not only in the
po liti cal sphere but also in the moral. There is no empirical proof
for such a position. So the doubt (of moral absolutes) is a leap.
Some will respond to all this, “My doubts are not based on a
leap of faith. I have no beliefs about God one way or another. I
simply feel no need for God and I am not interested in thinking
about it.” But hidden beneath this feeling is the very modern
American belief that the existence of God is a matter of indifference
unless it intersects with my emotional needs. The speaker is
betting his or her life that no God exists who would hold you
accountable for your beliefs and behaviour if you didn’t feel the
need for him. That may be true or it may not be true, but, again,
it is quite a leap of faith.

The only way to doubt Christianity rightly and fairly is to discern
the alternate belief under each of your doubts and then to
ask yourself what reasons you have for believing it. How do you
know your belief is true? It would be inconsistent to require
more justifi cation for Christian belief than you do for your own,
but that is frequently what happens. In fairness you must doubt
your doubts. My thesis is that if you come to recognize the beliefs
on which your doubts about Christianity are based, and if
you seek as much proof for those beliefs as you seek from Christians
for theirs—you will discover that your doubts are not as
solid as they first appeared.

I commend two processes to my readers. I urge skeptics to
wrestle with the unexamined “blind faith” on which skepticism is
based, and to see how hard it is to justify those beliefs to those
who do not share them. I also urge believers to wrestle with their
personal and culture’s objections to the faith. At the end of each
process, even if you remain the skeptic or believer you have been,
you will hold your own position with both greater clarity and
greater humility. Then there will be an understanding, sympathy,
and respect for the other side that did not exist before. Believers
and nonbelievers will rise to the level of disagreement rather than
simply denouncing one another. This happens when each side has
learned to represent the other’s argument in its strongest and most
positive form. Only then is it safe and fair to disagree with it. That
achieves civility in a pluralistic society, which is no small thing.

(Tim Kellor, The reason for God)

[Dr.Gonzo]

What a load of ****.

[Niamh.]

Unfortunately that is not Biblical and will not happen.



:devil:

So you think I'm going to hell then for not believing? Yet a guy who murders 5 children but finds God after and asks for forgivness isn't?

[Crimson Dynamo]

So you think I'm going to hell then for not believing? Yet a guy who murders 5 children but finds God after and asks for forgivness isn't?

I am telling you that what you said is not Biblical.

[Niamh.]

I am telling you that what you said is not Biblical.

No, why would it be, I don't read or follow the Bible. Do you think I'm going to Hell for not believing the Bible?

[Crimson Dynamo]

No, why would it be, I don't read or follow the Bible. Do you think I'm going to Hell for not believing the Bible?

Anyone who believes in Jesus Christ for salvation is forgiven, no matter what sins he has committed (Romans 6:23; John 3:16).

[Dr.Gonzo]

There's two things you can't get from a Christian. A good blowjob and a straight answer.

[Niamh.]

Anyone who believes in Jesus Christ for salvation is forgiven, no matter what sins he has committed (Romans 6:23; John 3:16).

See, that to me is just another reason not to follow the Bible. I don't like the sound of a God who thinks a murderer is ok as long as he believes in him and asks for forgivness (quite vain actually) rather than a decent good person who doesn't believe in him or follow a book that his buddies wrote about him but other than that has always been good and treats others with respect

[Niamh.]

There's two things you can't get from a Christian. A good blowjob and a straight answer.

:joker:

[Tom4784]

When it comes to creationism and evolution can't we have it both ways? I often take a lot of what happens in the bibles as metaphors rather how it's written. Is it impossible that a divine force could have begun all life as cells and we evolved from that?

[Crimson Dynamo]

See, that to me is just another reason not to follow the Bible. I don't like the sound of a God who thinks a murderer is ok as long as he believes in him and asks for forgivness (quite vain actually) rather than a decent good person who doesn't believe in him or follow a book that his buddies wrote about him but other than that has always been good and treats others with respect

That is because you have not studied it and do not know about judgement. Present actions have eternal consequences


2 Corinthians 5:10

For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

[Niamh.]

That is because you have not studied it and do not know about judgement. Present actions have eternal consequences


2 Corinthians 5:10

For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.


How do you know what I have or have not studied? I was born a Catholic, went to a catholic school where we did religion class everyday, I was baptised, made my communion and confirmation but decided that I didn't buy it!

[Prole]

It always amazes me that people can quote a book that's thousands of years old, and one that is, in any case, not complete. The church CHOSE which books were going in and which weren't. They chose them so that only those that worked with their own ideas were included.

The Christian church has killed more women over the years than childbirth - from murdering "witches" (who were always women, incidentally, any man accused of witchcraft was thought to be under the influence of a women) to refusing women contraception, even in areas of Africa and Asia that are rife with AIDS.

Women are nothing in the eyes of patriarchal religions. Are we still sucking up their Boys' Club bullshit after alllllllllllll this time?

[Crimson Dynamo]

How do you know what I have or have not studied? I was born a Catholic, went to a catholic school where we did religion class everyday, I was baptised, made my communion and confirmation but decided that I didn't buy it!

because you would have known about judgement?


The God that most people don't believe in does not exist!

[Niamh.]

because you would have known about judgement?


The God that most people don't believe in does not exist!


But you would not answer my question, I asked you Do you think I will go to hell because I don't believe in God and you quoted me a line from the Bible. I'm asking you, what do you think?

[Crimson Dynamo]

But you would not answer my question, I asked you Do you think I will go to hell because I don't believe in God and you quoted me a line from the Bible. I'm asking you, what do you think?

That would naturally depend on what you mean by Hell, you may be thinking of Waterstones for all I know.

You say "I don't read or follow the Bible" so it is difficult to try and explain Biblical matters and opinions I hold about them. Ultimately your scepticism will be irrational to me as your opinions will come from unusual places.

[Niamh.]

That would naturally depend on what you mean by Hell, you may be thinking of Waterstones for all I know.

You say "I don't read or follow the Bible" so it is difficult to try and explain Biblical matters and opinions I hold about them. Ultimately your scepticism will be irrational to me as your opinions will come from unusual places.

Again avoiding the question! Hell as in the opposite to Heavan is what I mean.

And why start a debate about Jesus If you expect only people who follow the Bible to debate with you about it?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Again avoiding the question! Hell as in the opposite to Heavan is what I mean.

And why start a debate about Jesus If you expect only people who follow the Bible to debate with you about it?

It is not so much avoiding the question as seeing where the question is being deliberately led.

The answer to your question is that those who do not recognise Jesus as their saviour will die a spiritual death (eternal separation from God). God has warned us in the Bible that it is appointed for men to die once, then judgement (Heb. 9:27). After death, you will be judged.

Eternity is a long time to be wrong, especially about Jesus.

[Niamh.]

It is not so much avoiding the question as seeing where the question is being deliberately led.

The answer to your question is that those who do not recognise Jesus as their saviour will die a spiritual death (eternal separation from God). God has warned us in the Bible that it is appointed for men to die once, then judgement (Heb. 9:27). After death, you will be judged.

Eternity is a long time to be wrong, especially about Jesus.

I wasn't trying to lead you anywhere with the question Leather Trumpet, I was just curious as to what you thought about it. I like debates with people because I consider myself to be open minded and like to hear other peoples points of view, sometimes if I think the other person has valid points, I may even change what I originally thought.

But this seems pointless to do on this subject with you because you've just told me that that my thoughts on this subject are irrational and come from "unusual" places. (they come from my head BTW!!!)

[Crimson Dynamo]

I wasn't trying to lead you anywhere with the question Leather Trumpet, I was just curious as to what you thought about it. I like debates with people because I consider myself to be open minded and like to hear other peoples points of view, sometimes if I think the other person has valid points, I may even change what I originally thought.

But this seems pointless to do on this subject with you because you've just told me that that my thoughts on this subject are irrational and come from "unusual" places. (they come from my head BTW!!!)

perhaps you are right and I apologise. I am still getting over the cat trauma of yesterday and the wrong teabag last night just before Flashforward, that lead to a sleepless start to bedtime.

[Niamh.]

perhaps you are right and I apologise. I am still getting over the cat trauma of yesterday and the wrong teabag last night just before Flashforward, that lead to a sleepless start to bedtime.

The wrong Teabag??? I'm intrigued lol:joker:

Too bad about your cat though, it's horrible loosing a pet :bawling:

[Crimson Dynamo]

The wrong Teabag??? I'm intrigued lol:joker:

Too bad about your cat though, it's horrible loosing a pet :bawling:

It should have been decaf and it was not! - i am such a caffeine woos

[Niamh.]

It should have been decaf and it was not! - i am such a caffeine woos

lol, I thought you were going to tell me it was a magic mushroom Tea bag or something :joker:

[Sticks]

LeatherTrumpet, as someone from the same side, I would advise you to "Quit while you are behind"

No progress is being made here, and you are lapsing into mild Ad Hominems which is never correct.

I have probably been where you are, and you are making some of the the same errors I did when I was younger.

[Niamh.]

LeatherTrumpet, as someone from the same side, I would advise you to "Quit while you are behind"

No progress is being made here, and you are lapsing into mild Ad Hominems which is never correct.

I have probably been where you are, and you are making some of the the same errors I did when I was younger.

What does that mean Sticks - Ad Hominems?

[Crimson Dynamo]

LeatherTrumpet, as someone from the same side, I would advise you to "Quit while you are behind"

No progress is being made here, and you are lapsing into mild Ad Hominems which is never correct.

I have probably been where you are, and you are making some of the the same errors I did when I was younger.

are you referring to the teabag. dont worry, I shall be more careful tonight.

but again, I fear you are perhaps taking this forum a touch too seriously. When getting replies like "If I pray hard enough, will God turn my colleague into bread? " or "What a load of ****" or "Blind faith. No getting through to you. I pity the fool."

that may suggest a certain tone! - i am not here to save sinners I am here for mild diversion.

[Sticks]

i am not here to save sinners I am here for mild diversion.

And in the process you run the risk of reinforcing negative stereotypes :sad:

[Dr.Gonzo]

And in the process you run the risk of reinforcing negative stereotypes :sad:

Absolutely brilliant. I seriously have a case of manlove for you saying that.

[Crimson Dynamo]

And in the process you run the risk of reinforcing negative stereotypes :sad:

and what are those?


(or are you having a "the only Christian in the village" moment?)

[Stu]

When it comes to creationism and evolution can't we have it both ways? I often take a lot of what happens in the bibles as metaphors rather how it's written. Is it impossible that a divine force could have begun all life as cells and we evolved from that?
No, because Jesus spoke of numerous old testament events, AND Genesis. He was a Jew, remember, he studied and believed in the God of the Torah. He was that God's son. Or at least he claimed to be.

You cant have it both ways. You cant believe in both Jesus and evolution. There is only one trinity. Why would he suddenly change his story in the New Testament?

[Stu]

Anyone who believes in Jesus Christ for salvation is forgiven, no matter what sins he has committed (Romans 6:23; John 3:16).
You basically just destroyed the entire Christian moral system. Congratulations.

Do what you want folks. As long as you believe in Jesus, you will be forgiven! Understand God's infinite love through the means of a bastardized, ancient, dog eared, irrelevant group of manuscripts or burn in hell for eternity!

Dawkins was right. Some of you people are mentally ill.

Right now, Dr. Gonzo is totally pissing on this thread.

[Dr.Gonzo]

Yeh, sorry about that.

[Stu]

Yeh, sorry about that.
No, no, it's much encouraged. Adult fairy tales deserve to be pissed on.

[Dr.Gonzo]

My bladder is always full when it comes to the subject of Christianity.

[Crimson Dynamo]

now that is your classic ad hom!

any minute now we will get the "Hitler was a Christian" post

[Sticks]

and what are those?


(or are you having a "the only Christian in the village" moment?)

More like a "I have seen this before elsewhere and it never ended well" moment

Others like to get us to do things which appear at variance to certain morals they believe we should have.

By using mild insults and making personal remarks, you play right into that.

[Sticks]

now that is your classic ad hom!

any minute now we will get the "Hitler was a Christian" post

But Ironically it is this post that triggers Godwin's law :bored:

[Crimson Dynamo]

But Ironically it is this post that triggers Godwin's law :bored:

"Godwin's Law does not, however, claim to articulate a fallacy; it is instead framed as a memetic tool to reduce the incidence of inappropriate hyperbolic comparisons."

like perhaps your ones?

:hugesmile:

[Dr.Gonzo]

So now we don't even need to go there because you've mentioned it yourself. Bravo! Tell you what, you know my username, I'll PM you my password and you can just post for me too.

[Crimson Dynamo]

So now we don't even need to go there because you've mentioned it yourself. Bravo! Tell you what, you know my username, I'll PM you my password and you can just post for me too.

like Probe8 does?

[Dr.Gonzo]

like Probe8 does?

You see, how opinions work is that some people agree with the ones you keep, and then there's some people that don't. Now Probe8 and I happen to agree on this subject. You making anything more of it than that just shows how truly desperate you are for that elusive one-up you've been digging for in this tired thread.

[Stu]

like Probe8 does?
Somebody agrees with me and not with you and your religious beliefs, therefore we are the one poster?

Nice.