Do we come from Apes?

[Crimson Dynamo]

taking into account that the picture of man emerging from apes and gradually standing up was just made up and has no scientific authenticity (you know the one i mean) do you think we came from apes?

[Jessica.]

We have the same biological ancestors as apes. there was a primative ape that began evolving it split into two species of ape one evolved into human beings the other evolved into common modern day monkeys, that is my understanding of it.

[WOMBAI]

Some alpha males still more closely related than the rest of us I think!

[Jords]

Im not sure, but I heard a good point somewhere that, if we evolved from apes, why are apes still around?

[Ninastar]

I thought we came from the homo erectus? If thats how its spelt anyway.

[arista]

taking into account that the picture of man emerging from apes and gradually standing up was just made up and has no scientific authenticity (you know the one i mean) do you think we came from apes?


Yes
we did.


And there is No God

[Princess]

I thought we came from the homo erectus? If thats how its spelt anyway.

I think they're the bit inbetween apes and people. I only know that off Friends,lol!

[Ninastar]

I think they're the bit inbetween apes and people. I only know that off Friends,lol!

Lol same!

[BBUK4LYFE]

No.

Why haven't those apes turned into something after all these years?

[Crimson Dynamo]

what about the Planet of the Apes?

hard to argue against that one

[Stacey.]

tbf, i Dont believe in all God and bible stuff etc..
but, yeah , i do believe That we sort of came from apes in the begininng :)
or,where else did we come from??

[setanta]

Of course we did. We're all part of the same family and our DNA structure is basically identical.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Of course we did. We're all part of the same family and are DNA structure is basically identical.


ah the delicious certainty

[Stacey.]

because,, Just like apes,we are supposed to walk on 4 feet, instead of 2 :laugh: lmao

[setanta]

ah the delicious certainty

I could mention the traits and behaviour that we share with primates - as well as opposable thumbs!- not to mention fossils found all over the world that trace our lineage through time. It's not a contentious subject really.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I could mention the traits and behaviour that we share with primates - as well as opposable thumbs!- not to mention fossils found all over the world that trace our lineage through time. It's not a contentious subject really.

not contentious?

:joker:

Dr. David Pilbeam (a distinguished professor of anthropology) suggested the following:

Perhaps generations of students of human evolution, including myself, have been flailing about in the dark; that our data base is too sparse, too slippery, for it to be able to mold our theories. Rather the theories are more statements about us and ideology than about the past. Paleoanthropology reveals more about how humans view themselves than it does about how humans came about. But that is heresy.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Pilbeam

[Crimson Dynamo]

I could mention the traits and behaviour that we share with primates - as well as opposable thumbs!- not to mention fossils found all over the world that trace our lineage through time. It's not a contentious subject really.

not contentious?

:joker:

Dr. David Pilbeam (a distinguished professor of anthropology) suggested the following:

Perhaps generations of students of human evolution, including myself, have been flailing about in the dark; that our data base is too sparse, too slippery, for it to be able to mold our theories. Rather the theories are more statements about us and ideology than about the past. Paleoanthropology reveals more about how humans view themselves than it does about how humans came about. But that is heresy.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Pilbeam

[setanta]

Are you a Mormon? Just wondering here.

[andyman]

Does LeatherTrumpet come from Apes?

[WOMBAI]

Does LeatherTrumpet come from Apes?

I think that honour is reserved for the likes of Vinnie and Marcus! :joker:

[InOne]

http://yecheadquarters.org/images/ape-man-line-up1.gif

[Jords]

I think that honour is reserved for the likes of Vinnie and Marcus! :joker:

:laugh2:

[andyman]

I think that honour is reserved for the likes of Vinnie and Marcus! :joker:You also came from australopithecines.

[Stacey.]

I think that honour is reserved for the likes of Vinnie and Marcus! :joker:

Lmfao :joker:

[Niamh.]

Im not sure, but I heard a good point somewhere that, if we evolved from apes, why are apes still around?

this sounds like a probable explanation for that question Jordy :


http://www.thetech.org/genetics/ask.php?id=150

[Stacey.]

I thiink Stephen Baldwin made that point Jords ;)

[andyman]

Lmfao :joker:Thanks for your great input about this topic..

[WOMBAI]

Thanks for your great input about this topic..

Your'e welcome! Nothing like a dose of the truth! :hugesmile:

[andyman]

Several species of Australopithecus have been identified, based on variations in skulls and teeth.
It is still uncertain whether these early hominids are the precursors of fully modern humans, or represent a separate evolutionary line.

[Stacey.]

Thanks for your great input about this topic..

i think you`ll find i posted above that.... twice aswell :spin:

[Jords]

this sounds like a probable explanation for that question Jordy :


http://www.thetech.org/genetics/ask.php?id=150

Very interesting, thanks Niamh! Yepp Im swaying more to us being evolved from apes then.

[Niamh.]

Very interesting, thanks Niamh! Yepp Im swaying more to us being evolved from apes then.

It does seem like the more logical answer. My 9 year old daughter asked her teacher, If God created the world in 7 days how come the dinasaurs were there millions of years before humans? She answered "Oh, they were a mistake!" This is one of the many reasons I can't take religion seriously!

[setanta]

Very interesting, thanks Niamh! Yepp Im swaying more to us being evolved from apes then.

There's no swaying involved here; it's just the logical conclusion to reach when you consider that genetic mutations and natural selection occur all the time.

[Jords]

It does seem like the more logical answer. My 9 year old daughter asked her teacher, If God created the world in 7 days how come the dinasaurs were there millions of years before humans? She answered "Oh, they were a mistake!" This is one of the many reasons I can't take religion seriously!

A very good question asked by your daughter! :hugesmile:

Hmm yeah, I think religion is just to give people hope, to make people believe they are special by saying a 'God' created them, because in the Bible there is nothing about Dinos, yet we have proof of their existence.

I like the idea of a God, and although I dont think a God created humans, I think something (God?), must have set off the whole creation of the universe and Earth and whats on it. Therefore we can still be evolved from apes, but there is an existance of a God figure.

[andyman]

Australopithecines
Australopithecus afarensis
Australopithecus africanus
Australopithecus anamensis
Australopithecus boisei
Australopithecus robustus

[Niamh.]

A very good question asked by your daughter! :hugesmile:

Hmm yeah, I think religion is just to give people hope, to make people believe they are special by saying a 'God' created them, because in the Bible there is nothing about Dinos, yet we have proof of their existence.

I like the idea of a God, and although I dont think a God created humans, I think something (God?), must have set off the whole creation of the universe and Earth and whats on it. Therefore we can still be evolved from apes, but there is an existance of a God figure.

yeah, I think the same Jordy I think if I had to label myself in this respect, I'd say I was an agnostic,

It was my husband actually told her to ask the question, My daughter is very religious, I want her to have a mind of her own, I hate the thought of her being brain washed!!

[Jords]

yeah, I think the same Jordy I think if I had to label myself in this respect, I'd say I was an agnostic,

It was my husband actually told her to ask the question, My daughter is very religious, I want her to have a mind of her own, I hate the thought of her being brain washed!!

If agnostic is something similar to what I said, I guess Im one too Niamh! :)

Ah yeah, religion can brain wash people, but she should be fine if you keep an eye on her about it. :) Ive never been very religious myself.

[Niamh.]

Here's the dictionary definition Jordy :

Main Entry: 1ag·nos·tic
Pronunciation: \ag-ˈnäs-tik, əg-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek agnōstos unknown, unknowable, from a- + gnōstos known, from gignōskein to know — more at know
Date: 1869
1 : a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
2 : a person unwilling to commit to an opinion about something <political agnostics>

[Jords]

Yepp that sounds pretty me Niamh, cheers! I know what I can say I am now. :laugh:

[Tom4784]

It's more likely then someone waving a magic wand and creating everything in seven days, Although I like to believe in both evolution and a higher power.

[andyman]

It's more likely then someone waving a magic wand and creating everything in seven days, Although I like to believe in both evolution and a higher power.Like the force?

[Tom4784]

Like the force?

Could be, who knows? I just like to believe there's something more for comfort, I don't believe in anything specific.

[Skeptic-i]

The question "if we evolved from apes, why are apes still around?" shows a complete misunderstanding of evolution. Humans, Gorillas and Chimpanzees share a distant common ancestor. We all just branched off and evolved in slightly different directions.

http://www.evogeneao.com/tree.html - awesome diagram of the Tree of Life.

I think some creationists - who usually spout that silly question - just resent the fact that we share ancestry with other apes. Not because evolution provides us with a better explanation than some God making woman out of Adam's rib, but because it would mean: God - who according to the biblical creation myth created us in His image - would look similar to this:

http://politicalpartypooper.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/bush-chimp.jpg

If anyone is interested, a few great websites on evolution:

http://www.talkorigins.org/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/index.html
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/
http://www.becominghuman.org/

[andyman]

Could be, who knows? I just like to believe there's something more for comfort, I don't believe in anything specific.Still many unkowns about our body, mind, world and the vast cosmos.. Truely epic, but science will help us to understand and know why things are and the truth behind the magic and myth.

[Crimson Dynamo]

It does seem like the more logical answer. My 9 year old daughter asked her teacher, If God created the world in 7 days how come the dinasaurs were there millions of years before humans? She answered "Oh, they were a mistake!" This is one of the many reasons I can't take religion seriously!

The more logical approach that you should have taken from that answer was that the teacher was uninformed or was too lazy to answer fully.

Genesis is not a scientific recipe book for making worlds and universes, a quick read through is all you need to establish that. Sadly few people bother to do so.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Still many unkowns about our body, mind, world and the vast cosmos.. Truely epic, but science will help us to understand and know why things are and the truth behind the magic and myth.

as long as we do not think that answers we have now are the truth, they are just answers we have now to the best of our limited ability.

in 200 years people will scoff at our "science"

[WOMBAI]

It is scientific fact that we do evolve from apes - so don't really know why we are debating the question!

[Marc]

we came from dinosaurs

raaaaarrrr!! imma get you

[Crimson Dynamo]

It is scientific fact that we do evolve from apes - so don't really know why we are debating the question!

it is not. we have very few fossil records and certainly nothing to base the word "fact" on I am afraid. The sum total of fossils used to make a case for ape to man evolution could fit into a space the size of a coffin.

Dr. David Pilbeam (a distinguished professor of anthropology) suggested the following:

Perhaps generations of students of human evolution, including myself, have been flailing about in the dark; that our data base is too sparse, too slippery, for it to be able to mold our theories. Rather the theories are more statements about us and ideology than about the past. Paleoanthropology reveals more about how humans view themselves than it does about how humans came about. But that is heresy.

[setanta]

So LeatherTrumpet, what do you believe exactly? That we're connected in no way to primates and haven't evolved in any shape or form through time?

http://listverse.com/2009/01/05/top-10-signs-of-evolution-in-modern-man/

[Biggersister]

No...we were all created by a man living in the clouds out of nothing but thin-air and good will..

ahem

[BBUK4LYFE]

It does seem like the more logical answer. My 9 year old daughter asked her teacher, If God created the world in 7 days how come the dinasaurs were there millions of years before humans? She answered "Oh, they were a mistake!" This is one of the many reasons I can't take religion seriously!
Actually there is a part in the bible that mentions Dinosaurs. I can't remember exactly what it is, try googling it, but it was something like there was a dark age, that large animals used to roam the earth, before God created the world like it is today. It was around the time that God sent Satan and his Demons to roam the earth after trying to turn the Angels in heaven against him. Thats in the Bible.

[setanta]

Actually there is a part in the bible that mentions Dinosaurs. I can't remember exactly what it is, try googling it, but it was something like there was a dark age, that large animals used to roam the earth, before God created the world like it is today. It was around the time that God sent Satan and his Demons to roam the earth after trying to turn the Angels in heaven against him. Thats in the Bible.

Not really. Just mentions a leviathon of some sort but sure that could be a reference to of mythological creature.

[Crimson Dynamo]

The word “dinosaur” was first invented in 1841

[Crimson Dynamo]

Actually there is a part in the bible that mentions Dinosaurs. I can't remember exactly what it is, try googling it, but it was something like there was a dark age, that large animals used to roam the earth, before God created the world like it is today. It was around the time that God sent Satan and his Demons to roam the earth after trying to turn the Angels in heaven against him. Thats in the Bible.

Job 40:15-19 (King James Version)

Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.
Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.
He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together. His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron. He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.

[Dr.Gonzo]

The word “dinosaur” was first invented in 1841

What were they called before that? Dem big things!

[Crimson Dynamo]

What were they called before that? Dem big things!

Dragons!

[setanta]

Dragons!

Yep, fairytales, just like the rest of the Old Testament.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Yep, fairytales, just like the rest of the Old Testament.

concluded after extensive hearsay...:joker:

[setanta]

concluded after extensive hearsay...:joker:

So you believe that all the Old Testament tales are true? Come on. And you never answered any questions I gave you.

[Dr.Gonzo]

Yep, fairytales, just like the rest of the Old Testament.

Haha. Love it.

You shall not PASS!

[Crimson Dynamo]

So you believe that all the Old Testament tales are true? Come on. And you never answered any questions I gave you.

The fact that you asked the first question would suggest that you have no real idea what the OT is and in some ways answers q2.

[setanta]

The fact that you asked the first question would suggest that you have no real idea what the OT is and in some ways answers q2.

You see, there you go again - answering questions in an offhand and derogatory fashion.

[Crimson Dynamo]

You see, there you go again - answering questions in an offhand and derogatory fashion.

"Yep, fairytales, just like the rest of the Old Testament."



:hugesmile:

[Dr.Gonzo]

You see, there you go again - answering questions in an offhand and derogatory fashion.

There's an elephant in the room and Trumpet Trousers swears it has a long-flowing silver beard and a cloak made of sunshine.

[setanta]

"Yep, fairytales, just like the rest of the Old Testament."



:hugesmile:

I wasn't slagging you there... I was stating facts lol.

[Crimson Dynamo]

There's an elephant in the room and Trumpet Trousers swears it has a long-flowing silver beard and a cloak made of sunshine.

lol

I think that is what most of the non-believers think God is. no wonder they dont believe.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I wasn't slagging you there... I was stating facts lol.

hoisted by your own petard

[setanta]

hoisted by your own petard

There you go again, adding nothing to conversation.

[Crimson Dynamo]

There you go again, adding nothing to conversation.

a simple "i dont understand" would have been more graceful

:spin:

[setanta]

a simple "i dont understand" would have been more graceful

:spin:

And yet again you indulge your own ego at the expense of a proper conversation, which you're obviously incapable of involving yourself in.

[BBUK4LYFE]

You are blatantly making fun of something someone believes in, then you expect them to engage in a serious conversation with you? Are you frigging serious with that?

[Skeptic-i]

lol

I think that is what most of the non-believers think God is. no wonder they dont believe.

Hang on! There's something wrong with this statement.

As a non-believer, I've not been convinced that god[s] exist. So why would a non-believer - like myself - think god is: [insert attributes here]?

Sigh!

[setanta]

You are blatantly making fun of something someone believes in, then you expect them to engage in a serious conversation with you? Are you frigging serious with that?

Huh, yes, I am being serious here. I'm challenging them to give us what they believe is the truth on the matter and they wont bother. Instead the OP likes to deride others for their apparent ignorance on the subject when they he/she never cares to enlighten us on the subject. And yes, I made fun of the Old Testament because it's perfectly clear to me that it contains fables, dreamt up by various people.

[andyman]

Hang on! There's something wrong with this statement.

As a non-believer, I've not been convinced that god[s] exist. So why would a non-believer - like myself - think god is: [insert attributes here]?

Sigh!.. LT might be God in his strange abstract mind..

[InOne]

Creationism is a story. Evolution is a theory, theories are based on facts. That is all there is to it...

[Crimson Dynamo]

Creationism is a story. Evolution is a theory, theories are based on facts. That is all there is to it...

Who is talking about creationism apart from you?

You seem obsessed by it. :conf:

[InOne]

Who is talking about creationism apart from you?

You seem obsessed by it. :conf:

It consumes me.

[BBUK4LYFE]

LeatherTrumpet, what type of Christian are you?

[Crimson Dynamo]

LeatherTrumpet, what type of Christian are you?

Just a regular one.

[BBUK4LYFE]

Just a regular one.

I mean like, Catholic, Methodist etc.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I mean like, Catholic, Methodist etc.

Dour Scottish Protestant

[Skeptic-i]

Is a Scottish Protestant a "regular" Christian?

[Stu]

Don't you love when Christians get really, really stern and anal about cold, hard proof for evolution? The ultimate in irony.

The more intriguing debate is how exactly our brain size blew up considerably in evolution and where the cognitive faculties that seperate apes from us came from. I personally believe in Terrance McKenna's stoned ape theory.

[setanta]

Don't you love when Christians get really, really stern and anal about cold, hard proof for evolution? The ultimate in irony.

The more intriguing debate is how exactly our brain size blew up considerably in evolution and where the cognitive faculties that seperate apes from us came from. I personally believe in Terrance McKenna's stoned ape theory.

Is that the one where we were off our faces for awhile on shrooms, which helped expand our brains and developed our communication skills?

[Stu]

Is that the one where we were off our faces for awhile on shrooms, which helped expand our brains and developed our communication skills?
That's the one.

See : Food Of The Gods, YouTube [as ever].

[Crimson Dynamo]

Don't you love when Christians get really, really stern and anal about cold, hard proof for evolution? The ultimate in irony.

The more intriguing debate is how exactly our brain size blew up considerably in evolution and where the cognitive faculties that seperate apes from us came from. I personally believe in Terrance McKenna's stoned ape theory.

I love it more when people who believe that they dont believe in God put their faith in some "stuff" they picked up on telly and the odd celebrity or, ahem, band....

:devil:

[Fom]

I love it more when people who believe that they dont believe in God put their faith in some "stuff" they picked up on telly and the odd celebrity or, ahem, band....

:devil:

It is a bad habit to go around assuming things.

[Stu]

I love it more when people who believe that they dont believe in God put their faith in some "stuff" they picked up on telly and the odd celebrity or, ahem, band....

:devil:
Actually it's a book I read that convinced me of the theory, just like you read your book, so I believe you can take your self righteous opinion and pick some roses and hug a teddybear.

[James]

...The more intriguing debate is how exactly our brain size blew up considerably in evolution and where the cognitive faculties that seperate apes from us came from....

http://i45.tinypic.com/b8ut69.jpg

;)

[Stu]

A ... silver door?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Actually it's a book I read that convinced me of the theory, just like you read your book, so I believe you can take your self righteous opinion and pick some roses and hug a teddybear.



like you read a whole book:joker:

[Stu]

like you read a whole book:joker:
You don't need to in order to establish any sort of religious belief. Heck, even that whack ass fire and brimstone Revelations ending would be a turn off in itself for most people.

NOT EVERYBODY BELIEVES WHAT YOU BELIEVE.

I know it's a tough pill to swallow, kid, but bear with me.

[Crimson Dynamo]

You don't need to in order to establish any sort of religious belief. Heck, even that whack ass fire and brimstone Revelations ending would be a turn off in itself for most people.

NOT EVERYBODY BELIEVES WHAT YOU BELIEVE.



really?

I always get lots of support on Tibb, are you sure?:conf:

[ange7]

Im not sure, but I heard a good point somewhere that, if we evolved from apes, why are apes still around?
Nah it's actually not. Steve Baldwin used the same point when he was pointing out that evolution is all rubbish. He's a "dork".
Imagine there a population of apes. For some reason half migrate to another area. Over millions of years the environment in the 2nd population changes and the apes there changes with the environment while the apes in the 1st population have remained the same since the environment hasn't changed that much. After millions more years the second population becomes human while those lazy apes that had it easy are STILL APES!.. mahahaha eat that lazy apes.

[ange7]

Just a regular one.
no your not.
All your threads are full of religious hate. That ain't too Christian... unless your using religion to add credibility to your hate. Dude that's what terrorist do!! mahahah

[Crimson Dynamo]

no your not.
All your threads are full of religious hate. That ain't too Christian... unless your using religion to add credibility to your hate. Dude that's what terrorist do!! mahahah

perhaps you can give me an example?

[ange7]

yeah sure I can. Any thread you start with the word "Muslim" in it is always a laugh... ie every second thread you make.
Oh sorry did you mean you wanted me to provide examples of rightwing extremist that preach religious hate while trying to justify it by faking a love of religion? Esay! .. you and al qaeda :P

[Crimson Dynamo]

yeah sure I can. Any thread you start with the word "Muslim" in it is always a laugh... ie every second thread you make.
Oh sorry did you mean you wanted me to provide examples of rightwing extremist that preach religious hate while trying to justify it by faking a love of religion? Esay! .. you and al qaeda :P

yeah, ok Biff...:xyxwave:

[ange7]

awwww lol "biff"... did that come out of you think box.
see ya laterz al qaeda :P

[Crimson Dynamo]

awwww lol "biff"... did that come out of you think box.
see ya laterz al qaeda :P

go to bed and sober up

[Shaun]

I have a horrible feeling LeatherTrumpet will turn out to be Stephen King's Carrie.

[ange7]

go to bed and sober up
it's 12:56am here and I freelance so I'll be on while you on :P

[Crimson Dynamo]

I have a horrible feeling LeatherTrumpet will turn out to be Stephen King's Carrie.

http://www.theaspectratio.net/carrie.jpg



My passport photo should dispel that thought

[ange7]

was that pic taken at SS officer training?

[ange7]

Nah it's actually not. Steve Baldwin used the same point when he was pointing out that evolution is all rubbish. He's a "dork".
Imagine there a population of apes. For some reason half migrate to another area. Over millions of years the environment in the 2nd population changes and the apes there changes with the environment while the apes in the 1st population have remained the same since the environment hasn't changed that much. After millions more years the second population becomes human while those lazy apes that had it easy are STILL APES!.. mahahaha eat that lazy apes.
I agree :P

[Sticks]

was that pic taken at SS officer training?


Not sure about evolution here but well done for proving the truth of Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law)

:bored:

[Sticks]

Now for some more clarifications


The Bible says God created the world in six days not seven. He rested on the seventh
Dinosaurs were present in the creation story, because as LeatherTrumpet cites, the book of Job mentions them, both Behemoth* and Leviathan
The creationist belief is that dinosaurs were not able to adapt to a changed world after the global flood and became extinct.
Creationism says that the fossils we find are the result of the global flood rather than annimals dying over eons
If you actually look at the evidence for fossil man you will find that most of it is "reconstrucions" according to one source the actual finds would "fit into a coffin with room to spare"
It is a poor argument to say evolution can not be true because mokeys and apes are not turning into people. Evolution teaches that all these animals and our selves descended from a common ancestor.


That said, currently I am wading through Charles Darwin's origin of species and some of the objections he does try and address.

My main problems with evolutionary theory is at the beginning and part of the process.

The origin is spontaneous generation, or creating life. With our finest methodology and most brilliant minds have yet to do this feat which somehow "just happend" in nature, an open system.

The other issue, and this relates to genetics which came after Darwin published. The process for change put forward is genetic mutation, however mutations by definition is an error in the copying of DNA. In nature we have yet to document an example of a good mutation**

I could also go on about radiometric rock dating and some of the assumptions made that are hard to justify but this is contentious and debated thouroughly on Talkorigins.

From the Biblical perspective, my contention is that Genesis is not the problem. The problem lies in Exodus 20:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=exodus%2020:11&version=NIV), which states the reason why the world is created in six literal days. To give the Israelites the pattern for the working week and the sabbath.

Then again, although we hear of Christian and Islamic fundamentalists who refer to the six literal days of creation, I am not sure I ever hear of Jewish fundamentalists or any rabbis advocating that position.

* In some Bibles they have a footnote saying that Behemoth is probably a hippotamous, but if you look at the description of the tail being like a cedar (tree) it does not fit. One person took the decription in the Book of Job and read it out to school children, who said it sounded like one of the bracheosaurs possibbly diplodicus.

** We are aware of bacterial resistance to antibiotics, however this is to do with plasmids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasmids)floating through the population and nothing to do with mutations

[ange7]

Not sure about evolution here but well done for proving the truth of Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law)

:bored:
from the site you posted.....
“The rule does not make any statement about whether any particular reference or comparison to Adolf Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate, but only asserts that the likelihood of such a reference or comparison arising increases as the discussion progresses “.
It's appropriate in this case given every second thread he creates has the word “muslim” in it ( relgious fear mongering) and like the Nazi's ( lol and al queda) he hides his intolerance behind a “divine rightiousness”. Godwin's law doesn't mean every use of the nazi analogies is incorrect, just that the longer an argument goes on the more likely the analogy will be used.

[karezza]

We don't come from apes - apes come from us.

[ange7]

Now for some more clarifications


The Bible says God created the world in six days not seven. He rested on the seventh
Dinosaurs were present in the creation story, because as LeatherTrumpet cites, the book of Job mentions them, both Behemoth* and Leviathan
The creationist belief is that dinosaurs were not able to adapt to a changed world after the global flood and became extinct.
Creationism says that the fossils we find are the result of the global flood rather than annimals dying over eons
If you actually look at the evidence for fossil man you will find that most of it is "reconstrucions" according to one source the actual finds would "fit into a coffin with room to spare"
It is a poor argument to say evolution can not be true because mokeys and apes are not turning into people. Evolution teaches that all these animals and our selves descended from a common ancestor.


That said, currently I am wading through Charles Darwin's origin of species and some of the objections he does try and address.

My main problems with evolutionary theory is at the beginning and part of the process.

The origin is spontaneous generation, or creating life. With our finest methodology and most brilliant minds have yet to do this feat which somehow "just happend" in nature, an open system.

The other issue, and this relates to genetics which came after Darwin published. The process for change put forward is genetic mutation, however mutations by definition is an error in the copying of DNA. In nature we have yet to document an example of a good mutation**

I could also go on about radiometric rock dating and some of the assumptions made that are hard to justify but this is contentious and debated thouroughly on Talkorigins.

From the Biblical perspective, my contention is that Genesis is not the problem. The problem lies in Exodus 20:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=exodus%2020:11&version=NIV), which states the reason why the world is created in six literal days. To give the Israelites the pattern for the working week and the sabbath.

Then again, although we hear of Christian and Islamic fundamentalists who refer to the six literal days of creation, I am not sure I ever hear of Jewish fundamentalists or any rabbis advocating that position.

* In some Bibles they have a footnote saying that Behemoth is probably a hippotamous, but if you look at the description of the tail being like a cedar (tree) it does not fit. One person took the decription in the Book of Job and read it out to school children, who said it sounded like one of the bracheosaurs possibbly diplodicus.

** We are aware of bacterial resistance to antibiotics, however this is to do with plasmids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasmids)floating through the population and nothing to do with mutations

"Dinosaurs were present in the creation story, because as LeatherTrumpet cites, the book of Job mentions them, both Behemoth* and Leviathan"
This isn't proof of the existence of dinasaurs during the time of man. "Creation stories" aren't science or proof. If you argue that YOUR froof is faith alone then that's fine but in a logical debate of science and proofs these "creation myths have no place. The bible is NOT a history book nor was it intended to be read as such.
If they'd described a animal with 16 heads and 5 arms that doesn't prove it existed. Besides people who wrote the bible spent most of their time living very locally. Any odd animal would have been described as a "monster".

Dinosaurs pre-date man by man millions of years. Palentologist never find human and dinosaure fossils in the same strata layers nor when they carbon date them do any of these two types of fossils over lap.

Do you think dinosaurs were around when the old or new testament were written?

[ange7]

We don't come from apes - apes come from us.
hi Karezza, neither is true ... we've a common ancestor. But that can be said for most life on earth.
Wait just realized your sh*t stirring. :P

[ange7]

Now for some more clarifications


The Bible says God created the world in six days not seven. He rested on the seventh
Dinosaurs were present in the creation story, because as LeatherTrumpet cites, the book of Job mentions them, both Behemoth* and Leviathan
The creationist belief is that dinosaurs were not able to adapt to a changed world after the global flood and became extinct.
Creationism says that the fossils we find are the result of the global flood rather than annimals dying over eons
If you actually look at the evidence for fossil man you will find that most of it is "reconstrucions" according to one source the actual finds would "fit into a coffin with room to spare"
It is a poor argument to say evolution can not be true because mokeys and apes are not turning into people. Evolution teaches that all these animals and our selves descended from a common ancestor.


That said, currently I am wading through Charles Darwin's origin of species and some of the objections he does try and address.

My main problems with evolutionary theory is at the beginning and part of the process.

The origin is spontaneous generation, or creating life. With our finest methodology and most brilliant minds have yet to do this feat which somehow "just happend" in nature, an open system.

The other issue, and this relates to genetics which came after Darwin published. The process for change put forward is genetic mutation, however mutations by definition is an error in the copying of DNA. In nature we have yet to document an example of a good mutation**

I could also go on about radiometric rock dating and some of the assumptions made that are hard to justify but this is contentious and debated thouroughly on Talkorigins.

From the Biblical perspective, my contention is that Genesis is not the problem. The problem lies in Exodus 20:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=exodus%2020:11&version=NIV), which states the reason why the world is created in six literal days. To give the Israelites the pattern for the working week and the sabbath.

Then again, although we hear of Christian and Islamic fundamentalists who refer to the six literal days of creation, I am not sure I ever hear of Jewish fundamentalists or any rabbis advocating that position.

* In some Bibles they have a footnote saying that Behemoth is probably a hippotamous, but if you look at the description of the tail being like a cedar (tree) it does not fit. One person took the decription in the Book of Job and read it out to school children, who said it sounded like one of the bracheosaurs possibbly diplodicus.

** We are aware of bacterial resistance to antibiotics, however this is to do with plasmids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasmids)floating through the population and nothing to do with mutations

"If you actually look at the evidence for fossil man you will find that most of it is "reconstrucions" according to one source the actual finds would "fit into a coffin with room to spare"

Since when was archeological proof measure in coffins? Lol. How many coffins full of proof would satisfy you...10 ...20 coffin worth.
I don't believe the evidence of human fossil would "fit into a coffin with room to spare". There are many thousands of examples of fossil that point to human evolution. I noted you didn't site the where you heard this so googled it for you
“http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC030.html”
Morris, Henry M., 1974. Scientific Creationism
Watchtower Bible and Tract Society

!!??!!??
"1974", "Creationism" and "Watchtower".
None of these reassure me of the "datas" accuracy nor it's unbiased nature. No wonder you didn't quote your source.

[ange7]

Now for some more clarifications


The Bible says God created the world in six days not seven. He rested on the seventh
Dinosaurs were present in the creation story, because as LeatherTrumpet cites, the book of Job mentions them, both Behemoth* and Leviathan
The creationist belief is that dinosaurs were not able to adapt to a changed world after the global flood and became extinct.
Creationism says that the fossils we find are the result of the global flood rather than annimals dying over eons
If you actually look at the evidence for fossil man you will find that most of it is "reconstrucions" according to one source the actual finds would "fit into a coffin with room to spare"
It is a poor argument to say evolution can not be true because mokeys and apes are not turning into people. Evolution teaches that all these animals and our selves descended from a common ancestor.


That said, currently I am wading through Charles Darwin's origin of species and some of the objections he does try and address.

My main problems with evolutionary theory is at the beginning and part of the process.

The origin is spontaneous generation, or creating life. With our finest methodology and most brilliant minds have yet to do this feat which somehow "just happend" in nature, an open system.

The other issue, and this relates to genetics which came after Darwin published. The process for change put forward is genetic mutation, however mutations by definition is an error in the copying of DNA. In nature we have yet to document an example of a good mutation**

I could also go on about radiometric rock dating and some of the assumptions made that are hard to justify but this is contentious and debated thouroughly on Talkorigins.

From the Biblical perspective, my contention is that Genesis is not the problem. The problem lies in Exodus 20:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=exodus%2020:11&version=NIV), which states the reason why the world is created in six literal days. To give the Israelites the pattern for the working week and the sabbath.

Then again, although we hear of Christian and Islamic fundamentalists who refer to the six literal days of creation, I am not sure I ever hear of Jewish fundamentalists or any rabbis advocating that position.

* In some Bibles they have a footnote saying that Behemoth is probably a hippotamous, but if you look at the description of the tail being like a cedar (tree) it does not fit. One person took the decription in the Book of Job and read it out to school children, who said it sounded like one of the bracheosaurs possibbly diplodicus.

** We are aware of bacterial resistance to antibiotics, however this is to do with plasmids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasmids)floating through the population and nothing to do with mutations
"My main problems with evolutionary theory is at the beginning and part of the process."
Evolution doesn't rely on creation theories. Scientist may have no proofs of how it all kicked of but that doesn't undermine evolutionary theory.

"The other issue, and this relates to genetics which came after Darwin published. The process for change put forward is genetic mutation, however mutations by definition is an error in the copying of DNA. In nature we have yet to document an example of a good mutation**"

There are examples all around. You mentioned you were reading up on Darwin. He uses the finches on the gallapagus ( spelling?) islands as an example. “Good mutaions” or mutations that gave some finches an advantage over others were documented … finches with larger beaks were more successful because during the season when their normal food source was less plentiful these larger beaked finches could crack other larger nuts that the normal finches couldn't.

Other finches over many generation evolved thinner beaks. Their advantage was that they could eat juicy cactus plants during the season when food was scarce. This mutation was clearly positive and a "good mutation". Infact the very presence of every living thing on earth is an example of a good mutation in it's genetic ancestry. It's why they are still around and have not died out. They've adapted and changed via evolution to more efficiently survive and reproduce. Those that didn't obviously aren't around any more.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Evolution is our best explanation currently for the origins of man, it may be superseded in the future, tends to be the way.

The Bible is not in a contest with scientific thought and was not written to be so. The Bible is a love story.

[setanta]

Evolution is our best explanation currently for the origins of man, it may be superseded in the future, tends to be the way.

The Bible is not in a contest with scientific thought and was not written to be so. The Bible is a love story.

A love story, eh? Do you think he gave Mary Magdalene a good seeing to?

[Crimson Dynamo]

A love story, eh? Do you think he gave Mary Magdalene a good seeing to?


he was all seeing, as you know

[setanta]

he was all seeing, as you know

I often wonder how he'd fair in spreading the word of God in todays society. All Satan would have to do is give him a laptop and the poor fella would be liable to give in to temptation. lol. One google and he's toast.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I often wonder how he'd fair in spreading the word of God in todays society. All Satan would have to do is give him a laptop and the poor fella would be liable to give in to temptation. lol. One google and he's toast.

no. he would have strict safe search ON

[Stu]

Hugh Grant is playing Moses in the romcom adaptation.