View Full Version : Gay rights campaigner Peter Tatchell defends 'homosexuals are sinners' preacher
Crimson Dynamo
31-03-2010, 10:37 AM
Gay rights campaigner Peter Tatchell has defended a Christian street preacher fined £1,000 for saying that homosexuality is a sin.
Baptist Shawn Holes was taken from a busy shopping street in a police van and locked in a cell for the night.
He appeared in court the next day charged with 'uttering homophobic remarks' in a breach of the peace that prosecutors said was 'aggravated by religious prejudice'.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1262310/Gay-rights-campaigner-condemns-1-000-fine-preacher-said-homosexuality-sin.html#ixzz0jkWWxtGA
You could not make it up. I hope the policemen involved are disciplined.
Shasown
31-03-2010, 01:40 PM
Gay rights campaigner Peter Tatchell has defended a Christian street preacher fined £1,000 for saying that homosexuality is a sin.
Baptist Shawn Holes was taken from a busy shopping street in a police van and locked in a cell for the night.
He appeared in court the next day charged with 'uttering homophobic remarks' in a breach of the peace that prosecutors said was 'aggravated by religious prejudice'.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1262310/Gay-rights-campaigner-condemns-1-000-fine-preacher-said-homosexuality-sin.html#ixzz0jkWWxtGA
You could not make it up. I hope the policemen involved are disciplined.
Why? If you read the report in the link they simply acted upon a complaint from two men. Scottish police policy is to respond to and investigate all allegations of crimes where possible.
They removed Mr Holes(good name) and interviewed him, there was sufficient evidence from the complaint and his statement to arrest and charge him for a breach of the peace.
It would have been the Procurator Fiscal or Depute that gave the court the spiel about it being religiously prejudice
Unfortunately because of circumstances he didnt really get to have his day in court, hearings for offences like that are typically over within a 5 - 10 minute timeframe. The defendant gets called to the dock, confirms name and plea, then the PF states a brief summary of the incident, defendant or solicitor may make a plea in mitigation, sheriff looks at record, charging schedules, then assess defendants ability to pay, announces penalty, defendant walks. That is if the plea was guilty.
If he had decided to plea not guilty then there is quite a good possibility a solicitor could have had the charge dropped or him found not guilty, simply because it could be suggested that the original question came from a homosexual with the intent of extracting the mans opinion and then complaining about it.
But thats the problem with Scottish Police, they arent really given the discretion to decide whether or not to forward paper work to the PF, on a lot of crimes especially racial, homophobic or domestic abuse issues. Nor was there a full investigation, proper statements etc would have been taken after the initial Diet(where he was taken from the cells to appear in front of a sheriff) charges would have been revised etc, maybe even dropped between the Initial Diet and the Trial Diet(the actualy dateof hearing full evidence on both sides).
It is a system that saves a lot of needless and unnecessary paperwork. there are lots of people plead guilty and there is no need for a full investigation.
Crimson Dynamo
31-03-2010, 01:49 PM
The response to "that guy said said homos are going to Hell officer" should have been
"Move on sir and stop wasting Police time" or a shorter "F off"
Niamh.
31-03-2010, 01:59 PM
Who actually cares? Maybe it was a waste of time but so what? I couldn't care less if some bible bashing homophobe has to pay a £1000 fine tbh.
Shasown
31-03-2010, 02:05 PM
The response to "that guy said said homos are going to Hell officer" should have been
"Move on sir and stop wasting Police time" or a shorter "F off"
Not with current police policy, the copper doesnt want to have to spend time on his bosses axminster explaining why he discriminated against a homosexual member of the public who had made a complaint.
In fact the copper himself can get disciplined for failing to carry out his police duties properly or even bringing the police force into disrepute.
I think the preacher was set up by gay rights activists or by some smarta ss with a knowledge of the law. Tough he fell right into it.
Crimson Dynamo
31-03-2010, 02:08 PM
Who actually cares? Maybe it was a waste of time but so what? I couldn't care less if some bible bashing homophobe has to pay a £1000 fine tbh.
he is not a homophobe, what ever that is, and what is a (lol) Bible basher - surely its not a derogatory term because you simply disagree with his worldview?
Crimson Dynamo
31-03-2010, 02:10 PM
Not with current police policy, the copper doesnt want to have to spend time on his bosses axminster explaining why he discriminated against a homosexual member of the public who had made a complaint.
In fact the copper himself can get disciplined for failing to carry out his police duties properly or even bringing the police force into disrepute.
I think the preacher was set up by gay rights activists or by some smarta ss with a knowledge of the law. Tough he fell right into it.
i doubt that, just some youths mucking around and the police fell into the current political correct agenda hole.
Niamh.
31-03-2010, 02:11 PM
he is not a homophobe, what ever that is, and what is a (lol) Bible basher - surely its not a derogatory term because you simply disagree with his worldview?
a bible basher (to me) is someone who tries to force there religous views on others.
Who gives a crap, seriously? I'm sure you will tell people this is some virtuous mission to balance out the gay friendly media but really ... the fags get on your tits a bit, don't they?
Shasown
31-03-2010, 02:12 PM
Well he did admit his guilt to causing a breach of the peace by using language which would cause shock or outrage. 'Uttering homophobic remarks' 'aggravated by religious prejudice'
I would say that makes him a homophobe. Admitted the fine was a bit on the steep side.
Niamh.
31-03-2010, 02:12 PM
he is not a homophobe, what ever that is, and what is a (lol) Bible basher - surely its not a derogatory term because you simply disagree with his worldview?
no, I have no problem with people believing whatever they want but don't try to push your views on other people
Shasown
31-03-2010, 02:15 PM
he is not a homophobe, what ever that is, and what is a (lol) Bible basher - surely its not a derogatory term because you simply disagree with his worldview?
Ok Leather, he isnt a homophobe he just utters homophobic comments.
Mind you I aint ever seen a bible basher/street preacher be quiet when uttering any remarks.
Crimson Dynamo
31-03-2010, 02:25 PM
Ok Leather, he isnt a homophobe he just utters homophobic comments.
Mind you I aint ever seen a bible basher/street preacher be quiet when uttering any remarks.
They are not homophobic.
Crimson Dynamo
31-03-2010, 02:28 PM
Who gives a crap, seriously? I'm sure you will tell people this is some virtuous mission to balance out the gay friendly media but really ... the fags get on your tits a bit, don't they?
Many people "give a crap" thin end of the wedge etc.
Niamh.
31-03-2010, 02:31 PM
Out of curiousity, who said that God said gays are sinners anyway?
Crimson Dynamo
31-03-2010, 02:34 PM
Out of curiousity, who said that God said gays are sinners anyway?
That is the point "all have sinned"
even you. :shocked:
Niamh.
31-03-2010, 02:35 PM
That is the point "all have sinned"
even you. :shocked:
no, no that's not answering my question LT.
Crimson Dynamo
31-03-2010, 02:39 PM
no, no that's not answering my question LT.
then you asked the wrong question. all have sinned. fact.
Shasown
31-03-2010, 02:42 PM
They are not homophobic.
I am sorry mate but the comments he made were homophobic, the PF would not make a statement like that to a sheriff, especially in Glasgow
Not only did the PF and the police obviously think that. Even the sheriff did.
1st offence breach of the peace you are looking at sentence deferred 6-12 months for good behaviour bond no further charges the crime is dismissed, no further punishment.
Breach of the Peace for 2nd or 3rd time with its anything from £100- 500 depending on circumstances.
But a grand PMSL yeah she thought he was homophobic all right.
Niamh.
31-03-2010, 02:45 PM
then you asked the wrong question. all have sinned. fact.
I asked the question that I wanted to ask not the one you wanted me to ask. Is it or is it not wrong in Gods eyes to be Gay?
then you asked the wrong question. all have sinned. fact.
I agree, actually. With that in mind it's funny how many fundamentalist sorts have a hard on for bumming the gays all the time in particular.
I mean everyone has sinned, as you say.
It's never just because they don't ... like ... gays, is it?
I mean, that's crazy :rolleyes:.
Crimson Dynamo
31-03-2010, 03:13 PM
I asked the question that I wanted to ask not the one you wanted me to ask. Is it or is it not wrong in Gods eyes to be Gay?
Christians today (most) would no more be interested in what a man or woman does in their bedroom than they would in their bank account. The unofficial line is love the person not the act, and as i have said before that would be most folks line too.
There are bits of the Bible that talk about unnatural lusts and debauchery and so forth but you dont want me quoting Scripture do you (as it tends to be taken out of context and so forth)?
Crimson Dynamo
31-03-2010, 03:15 PM
I agree, actually. With that in mind it's funny how many fundamentalist sorts have a hard on for bumming the gays all the time in particular.
I mean everyone has sinned, as you say.
It's never just because they don't ... like ... gays, is it?
I mean, that's crazy :rolleyes:.
equally "the gays" have a "hard off" for the church as they think it is anti gay, it is not, but then why ruin a temper tantrum?
Niamh.
31-03-2010, 03:22 PM
Christians today (most) would no more be interested in what a man or woman does in their bedroom than they would in their bank account. The unofficial line is love the person not the act, and as i have said before that would be most folks line too.
There are bits of the Bible that talk about unnatural lusts and debauchery and so forth but you dont want me quoting Scripture do you (as it tends to be taken out of context and so forth)?
yeah, I do hear what you're saying and that makes more sense, but you really shouldn't be defending people like this guy and the B&B couple cos It's those people who are giving religion the bad name and make people think that you all hate Gays.
also, like I said before the bible wasn't written by God, it was written by men, so who told them that "unnatural lusts and debauchery" was wrong in Gods eyes?
Shasown
31-03-2010, 03:26 PM
Dont you think there is enough bigotry, ignorance and intolerance in this country as it is without having to import it in from America.
Bet that was Mr Holes most expensive bed and breakfast ever. Hopefully it will discourage him and his ilk from popping over to rant.
Crimson Dynamo
31-03-2010, 03:28 PM
yeah, I do hear what you're saying and that makes more sense, but you really shouldn't be defending people like this guy and the B&B couple cos It's those people who are giving religion the bad name and make people think that you all hate Gays.
also, like I said before the bible wasn't written by God, it was written by men, so who told them that "unnatural lusts and debauchery" was wrong in Gods eyes?
2 Timothy 3:16-17, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17. so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."
You may beg to differ but as a Christian I am probably going to go with the Bible on this one and on what I have read.
I am defending these people not so much because of who they represent but on behalf of common sense and anti-hysteria.
Niamh.
31-03-2010, 03:37 PM
2 Timothy 3:16-17, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17. so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."
You may beg to differ but as a Christian I am probably going to go with the Bible on this one and on what I have read.
I am defending these people not so much because of who they represent but on behalf of common sense and anti-hysteria.
Who is Timothy and why should I believe him?
But in defending these people you are enforcing their views and strengthening the notion that it is what christians believe
equally "the gays" have a "hard off" for the church as they think it is anti gay, it is not, but then why ruin a temper tantrum?
Why are you putting 'the gays' in inver -
Oh yeah, your one of them people who think homosexual people don't actually exist. How silly of me.
Crimson Dynamo
31-03-2010, 03:43 PM
Dont you think there is enough bigotry, ignorance and intolerance in this country as it is without having to import it in from America.
Bet that was Mr Holes most expensive bed and breakfast ever. Hopefully it will discourage him and his ilk from popping over to rant.
It adds a bit of colour to the shopping area, Glasgow has lost that since aggressive alcoholic numbers have dwindled.
Shasown
31-03-2010, 03:47 PM
I am defending these people not so much because of who they represent but on behalf of common sense and anti-hysteria.
I have to agree with you there, however, he has plead guilty, therefore there is no comeback, he cant appeal the sentence now either, it was a summary court with summary punishment. He can only appeal the decision if there was a procedural error, as it was "how do you plead- guilty your honour" its extremely unlikely there was a procedural error.
Because the sentence stands, it can be used as a basis to set the next line at which to chip away more of the basic human rights we collectively have.
If matey had plead not guilty and waited it probably would have been thrown out by the PF staff when all the prosecution paperwork was complete, if not a solicitor could have probably argued the charge out during the interim diet(s) but chances are if it had gone to a trial diet it would have been thrown out before the prosecution completed its case. (Diet is simply the term used for court hearing up here).
As it was only for a breach of the peace chances are he could have gone home and plead by post. They wouldnt have been bail restrictions except not to approach prosecution witnesses, I think thats why he plead in case bail required him to stay in Scotland, then again a good solicitor would have accepted the conditions to get him free then lodge an appeal agaisnt the restriction.
Crimson Dynamo
31-03-2010, 03:54 PM
Who is Timothy and why should I believe him?
But in defending these people you are enforcing their views and strengthening the notion that it is what christians believe
No I am not.
Crimson Dynamo
31-03-2010, 03:55 PM
Why are you putting 'the gays' in inver -
Oh yeah, your one of them people who think homosexual people don't actually exist. How silly of me.
no, i just find calling a group of people or a person by their personal sexual proclivity a bit weird.
Niamh.
31-03-2010, 03:55 PM
No I am not.
you're not defending them or your not strengthening their views?
Crimson Dynamo
31-03-2010, 04:03 PM
you're not defending them or your not strengthening their views?
No
and now i am off to the gym to do legs and chest until failure and then some negatives!
Niamh.
31-03-2010, 04:04 PM
No
and now i am off to the gym to do legs and chest until failure and then some negatives!
No to both?
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