The Burka - should it be banned in England?

[Angus]

Belgium has banned the wearing of the burka and many other western countries are following suit, even going so far as to imprison husbands who insist their wives wear them.

In the interests of national security should we ban the wearing of the burka in Britain, bearing in mind it is NOT a religious requirement in the Qu'ran but a cultural one?

Personally, as a woman, I find it offensive that men have imposed this requirement on women for no other reason than apparently other men may not look upon their women who are seen as a possessions, and that women other than their wives do not tempt men (who apparently are too weak willed and lustful to be able to prevent themselves from pouncing on burkaless women!). In some islamic countries it is only the woman who is punished in cases of adultery, and even rape!

Should we have to tolerate these medieval mysoginistic views in our predominantly Christian country? Discuss

[arista]

Yes Ban it
on Security Reasons.


or will we wait for a Black Widow Killer Bomber in London?

[Captain.Remy]

France is next.

[setanta]

Personally I'd be in agreement with you, but it's an area of democracy that's very tricky. It could be argued that it's an affront on personal freedoms and forces people to not have the right to practice their own religion, even though to many, such as ourselves, it flies in the face of common decency and equality.

[arista]

France is next.


Yes I watched a debate on France24News English spoken.

[Spike]

Its a tricky one. I can see the arguments for banning it but also the arguments against it.
I would hope the immigrants who come into the country would respects our culture and not wear it. I hate burkas and people wearing them scare me, its just not being able to identify the person underneath
I think I would be in favour of the ban but its on tricky ground seeing as we live in a country that gives freedom to the individual.

[Angus]

Personally I'd be in agreement with you, but it's an area of democracy that's very tricky. It could be argued that it's an affront on personal freedoms and forces people to not have the right to practice their own religion, even though to many, such as ourselves, it flies in the face of common decency and equality.

This is why the Human Rights legislation does not work. Muslim rights should not take precedence over our human rights to feel safe in our own country. Other countries like France are putting the interests of national security above those of an individual's human rights to dress as they please.

[setanta]

This is why the Human Rights legislation does not work. Muslim rights should not take precedence over our human rights to feel safe in our own country. Other countries like France are putting the interests of national security above those of an individual's human rights to dress as they please.

I understand where you're coming from but I mean, if you're to take that step where does it end? Banning people wearing hoodies? Banning Halloween? It's just one of those tricky areas, that's all.

[Captain.Remy]

This is why the Human Rights legislation does not work. Muslim rights should not take precedence over our human rights to feel safe in our own country. Other countries like France are putting the interests of national security above those of an individual's human rights to dress as they please.

May I just add that France is a free religion country (the Laicity principle). A few years ago, the French government prevented people from wearing any religion signs (necklaces with crosses on it....) but burka wasn't included. Now it is. It doesn't make much difference really. As a Christian, I can't show that I'm wearing a cross on my necklace (I do but I must hide it), so it's only fair Muslim people should do that too.

[Angus]

This article from The Independent just about sums up the way New Labour operates and how they try and twist reasonable questions in order to demonise the questioner.


Ed Balls, Labour MP, during a head to head public debate with other prospective MPs for the constituency of Morley and Outwood held in Morley town centre


Published Date: 30 April 2010
SCHOOLS Secretary Ed Balls received a frosty reception from voters as he went head to head with the British National Party in a soapbox debate in West Yorkshire today.
Mr Balls, who has a notional majority in the seat of Morley and Outwood, was jeered and booed by some members of the public in Morley town centre as he answered questions.

Four other candidates - Chris Beverley for the BNP, Anthony Calvert for the Conservatives, James Monaghan for the Liberal Democrats, and David Daniel for the UK Independence Party - joined Mr Balls as they mounted soapboxes to address voters directly.

A microphone was passed round the crowd during the 40-minute event, organised by The Independent newspaper, and questions were asked on issues including schools, the economy, jobs and immigration.

Members of the audience shouted "rubbish" and "answer the question" as Mr Balls responded to one woman's question about the rejection of a proposal to open a high school in Birkenshaw.

A question posed from a male member of the crowd regarding Belgium's decision to ban the burka led to one of the biggest responses from the audience.

He asked the candidates: "They're doing this (banning the burka) in the interest of women's rights, social inclusion, anti-terrorism and security. What I want to know is which of the parties are going to have the gumption to take an issue like that and really address it?"

Mr Balls answered: "We have people here who are Christian and Muslim and Jewish, and I think British values of tolerance and fair play and mutual respect mean that you don't say to people that because of their particular religion, or the colour of their skin that they are second class."

Some members of the audience clapped and cheered in support of Mr Balls while others booed and held aloft BNP posters.

He continued: "And I see your BNP signs there - I talk to people in Morley about race and immigration and what they say to me is that we have proper rules and laws on immigration. But the idea that you said, as the BNP do in their extremism, that if you are British, if you were born in our country, if you fought abroad in our armed forces, if you've got a part colour of skin, if you're black, you're second class and you shouldn't be able to be in the queue for housing, or you shouldn't be able to play football for England abroad in the World Cup - I think that racism and intolerance is extreme, it is foul and not British at all."

Around 30 members of the public cheered Mr Beverley on as he responded to Mr Balls's comments.

He was applauded as he said: "What a disgrace. What a disgrace that Ed Balls thinks he can come to Morley and insult members of the public for asking a legitimate question.

"It wasn't about people of different skin colour and it wasn't about the question of immigration, it was about the burka - it was a very specific issue."

[Tom]

The postbox ones should be banned but I have nothing against head scarves where you can still see the womans face

[Vicky.]

I dont think it should be banned altogether, people should have the freedom to wear what they want, if they chose to.

However, it should be banned for security reasons...IE it would have to be removed in banks, airports, scools, even garages...same as most places dont allow balaclavas.

[Tom]

I dont think it should be banned altogether, people should have the freedom to wear what they want, if they chose to.

However, it should be banned for security reasons...IE it would have to be removed in banks, airports, scools, even garages...same as most places dont allow balaclavas.

If hoodies and helmets are banned in most places then why should burkas be allowed?

[Mrluvaluva]

The postbox ones should be banned but I have nothing against head scarves where you can still see the womans face

I agree. As long as their face is visible, then I don't see a problem.

[InOne]

TlkxlzTZc48

Pat C for PM.

[setanta]

He's absolutely right, but it's still dodgy territory when it comes to an individuals rights, as paradoxical as that may sound.

[Vicky.]

If hoodies and helmets are banned in most places then why should burkas be allowed?

Umm...read my post properly...

For security reasons, it should be banned...banks, school, garages etc...

[Angus]

Umm...read my post properly...

For security reasons, it should be banned...banks, school, garages etc...

I'm just as worried by seeing them in the streets and shopping malls - anything could be hidden under a burka, after all what a perfect disguise for anyone intent on mischief! (male or female). If any of us went out with our faces completely covered up we would naturally be viewed with suspicion and no wonder!

As I said earlier there is no RELIGIOUS requirement for women to wear a burka, and as for cultural ones, we are in England now and perhaps its about time our views were respected. The burka is a very real, in your face, symbol of the perceived inferiority and subordination of women, and personally I find it offensive and degrading. This is a classic case of one person's human rights (to wear the burka) being the infringement of another person's human rights (mine to feel free and safe in my own land). We have also not addressed here how many of the women who wear burkas have been FORCED to do so- so much for freedom and equality when the subjugation of women is still enabled by mealy mouthed, politically correct politicians.

We are an extremely tolerant nation and no fuss whatever is made of any other immigrants wearing their national dress and neither should there be, but the burka is entirely different, for obvious reasons, and I admire those countries that have now made a stand on this issue.

After all, women cannot walk around middle eastern countries in anything deemed immodest without severe consequences, (I should know as I've lived in several). We have to respect other countries' laws and sensibilities. Unfortunately we have made the very wrong precedent over here of putting the rights and desires of immigrants to our country over those of the indigenous population.

[cupid stunt]

well DONE BELGIUM! NOW WE NEED TO BAN THE EVIL BURKA, ANYONE COULD BE HIDDEN UNDER 1 OF THEM, EVEN BIN LADEN!

[Tom4784]

Instead of banning it outright perhaps just in vulnerable areas? Like how you can't wear hoodies in certain places, Not the best examle but it's a compromise I guess.

[cupid stunt]

Instead of banning it outright perhaps just in vulnerable areas? Like how you can't wear hoodies in certain places, Not the best examle but it's a compromise I guess.

no THEY SHOULD BAN IT COMPLETELY, ENGLAND MUST NEVER BECOME A MUSLIM COUNTRY :mad:

[Zippy]

I can't decide on this one. I generally feel people should be allowed to dress how they choose. However, you can't deny the potential security risks. Also what the Burka represents in terms of female rights is pretty negative and depressing.

They should certainly be banned from certain zones where its important to see somebodies face. As should other items that cover the face to a large degree.

[Tom4784]

no THEY SHOULD BAN IT COMPLETELY, ENGLAND MUST NEVER BECOME A MUSLIM COUNTRY :mad:

Not banning Burkha's does not equal a Muslim Country....It's barely technically a Christian Country, no religion holds that much sway in the government.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Ban it and send a message that women are equal to men in the UK. if you disagree then piss off back to your own country

[arista]

"Italy's Right starts move towards ban on burkas"

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23753441-italys-right-starts-move-towards-ban-on-burkas.do

Ban them in all Nations
is the best United way.

[Angus]

Not banning Burkha's does not equal a Muslim Country....It's barely technically a Christian Country, no religion holds that much sway in the government.

I agree, it's nothing to do with religion, but about security, as well as the negative connotations of female subjugation.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I would also ban hoodies in urban areas

[InOne]

Ban it and send a message that women are equal to men in the UK. if you disagree then piss off back to your own country

That's the problem, the ones who seem to wear it are "British Muslim and proud innit".

[Shasown]

I think we are looking at it from the wrong point of view just as conkers became outlawed at some schools because of a fear of accidents, the Burkha should be banned on Health and Safety Grounds.

We already have evidence it is dangerous, if this woman had not worn a burkha she would probably be alive today.(Barring acts of god/allah)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1264535/Muslim-woman-strangled-burkha-freak-kart-accident.html

[arista]

Woman becomes first in Italy to be fined £430 for wearing burqa

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1271848/Woman-Italy-fined-430-wearing-burqa.html#ixzz0mxzYjN32


Times are changing.

[Lucy.]

I find this such a hard matter to try and solve, I mean okay I understand free will and all that jazz but immigration to me crosses a line when we can be made to feel threatened in our own country by those we are welcoming into our society. That's my problem with immigration, it's perfectly fine until we as a country are made to alter our identity for the people coming in. Countries should have their own traits which make them unique. You don't want to visit France and find it to be exactly like Britain do you? It's the same for Britain from places like India, Saudi Arabia and all that. That's why I personally dislike the Burka. It just seems threatening to me. I think it should be banned simply because, as it's not nessercary for Religion/health benefits anything like that, there's really no reason why it's so important.

[Angus]

I find this such a hard matter to try and solve, I mean okay I understand free will and all that jazz but immigration to me crosses a line when we can be made to feel threatened in our own country by those we are welcoming into our society. That's my problem with immigration, it's perfectly fine until we as a country are made to alter our identity for the people coming in. Countries should have their own traits which make them unique. You don't want to visit France and find it to be exactly like Britain do you? It's the same for Britain from places like India, Saudi Arabia and all that. That's why I personally dislike the Burka. It just seems threatening to me. I think it should be banned simply because, as it's not nessercary for Religion/health benefits anything like that, there's really no reason why it's so important.

It is symbolic of a medieval mindset imposed by men to subjugate women - what next, chastity belts?

[InOne]

Comparing the Burka to 'Hoodies' is a silly argument too. Kids wear hoodies cos they're kids. Also sometimes they are actively up to no good, so they feel the need to hide their face, cos of CCTV ect. And the Women have no reason at all to wear it, it is a symbol of opression and is an insult to the women who don't actually have a choice if they wear it or not.

[Shasown]

Then again maybe we should insist on all ugly women wearing them regardless of their religious belief. This would keep the Muslims happy and also keep lots of men happy.

[Angus]

Then again maybe we should insist on all ugly women wearing them regardless of their religious belief. This would keep the Muslims happy and also keep lots of men happy.

Just so long as we could equally cover up all ugly men, especially their beer bellies and builder's bums. This would keep ALL of us women happy.

[InOne]

We should go one step further and ban religion.

[Shasown]

Just so long as we could equally cover up all ugly men, especially their beer bellies and builder's bums. This would keep ALL of us women happy.

Thats fine by me, no worries with my adonis like looks and greek god like physique.

Sort of set up a fashion cum ugly people police who bag and tag fuglies.

[Lucy.]

We should go one step further and ban religion.

Yes. Because THAT would work well.

P.S. Incase it can't translate over forum - Yes I was being sarcastic :P

[Shasown]

Yes. Because THAT would work well.

P.S. Incase it can't translate over forum - Yes I was being sarcastic :P

Then use your sarcasm markers please. That way people who dont understand the concept can at least appreciate someone using it. Same applies for irony.

[InOne]

Yes. Because THAT would work well.

P.S. Incase it can't translate over forum - Yes I was being sarcastic :P

It would be better lol Obviously a few people may get slightly annoyed, I'm sure they'd get over it.

[Lucy.]

It wouldn't be better, it would be ridiculous.
You really suggest destroying something that is important to alot of people?
And a 'few' people is one hell of an understatement, religion is a huge thing in the
world you can't just 'ban' it. Seriously dude!

[InOne]

It wouldn't be better, it would be ridiculous.
You really suggest destroying something that is important to alot of people?
And a 'few' people is one hell of an understatement, religion is a huge thing in the
world you can't just 'ban' it. Seriously dude!

Ok, Islam, Christinaity and Judaism, better? lol

[Lucy.]

What is wrong with those 3 in particular?

[InOne]

What is wrong with those 3 in particular?

All their history's are written in blood, for a start.

[Angus]

Thats fine by me, no worries with my adonis like looks and greek god like physique.

Sort of set up a fashion cum ugly people police who bag and tag fuglies.

The mind boggles! How would it be decided who was ugly enough to be compulsorily covered up? I'm starting to get nervous:shocked:

[Lucy.]

The mind boggles! How would it be decided who was ugly enough to be compulsorily covered up? I'm starting to get nervous:shocked:

Ahaha! Definantly! Maybe Shazy needs to develop a scale for us :D

[Shasown]

I would train the police and issue them charts, if they fall into the yes or probably group in answer to this question:

Would Shasown or myself give this person one if we hadnt had it at home for a few weeks?

Its not just about looks though because some people who you may think should fall into the 'no's have a personality that appeals.

[Lucy.]

I would train the police and issue them charts, if they fall into the yes or probably group in answer to this question:

Would Shasown or myself give this person one if we hadnt had it at home for a few weeks?

Its not just about looks though because some people who you may think should fall into the 'no's have a personality that appeals.

What would be my answer then? :P

[Shasown]

What would be my answer then? :P

On a ten scale, I would give you one!

So you are safe

[Lucy.]

On a ten scale, I would give you one!

So you are safe

Ten being best? :joker:

[Shasown]

Nope if you score on the scale you are in or rather I would go in. Actual score matters not.

[Angus]

I would train the police and issue them charts, if they fall into the yes or probably group in answer to this question:

Would Shasown or myself give this person one if we hadnt had it at home for a few weeks?

Its not just about looks though because some people who you may think should fall into the 'no's have a personality that appeals.


But if you were THAT desperate because you hadn't had any for a few weeks you couldn't afford to be too picky! :hugesmile:

[biglover]

They should be banned, not part of our culture, shouldnt have to look at them X

[Shasown]

But if you were THAT desperate because you hadn't had any for a few weeks you couldn't afford to be too picky! :hugesmile:

Of course I have standards, but i am fairly flexible and tolerant. So its only really ugly people going into the bag aint it?

[Lucy.]

Nope if you score on the scale you are in or rather I would go in. Actual score matters not.

So what is the point in a numerical scale then?

[InOne]

http://sheikyermami.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/burka_graduation.jpg

[Shasown]

http://sheikyermami.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/burka_graduation.jpg

A scene from the new zombie movie?

[Shasown]

Ok, Islam, Christinaity and Judaism, better? lol

So I am safe as a satanist?

[InOne]

A scene from the new zombie movie?

Nah, think the movie is called "Jihad Suprise". It's set in Bradford.

[InOne]

So I am safe as a satanist?

Yeah, just about lol

[Shasown]

So what is the point in a numerical scale then?

Well no one is ever going to get a ten, not unless she is out of this world and able to read my mind so she knows exactly what I want from her at any given moment without having to ask, and not get offended by some of my thoughts.

[Lucy.]

Well no one is ever going to get a ten, not unless she is out of this world and able to read my mind so she knows exactly what I want from her at any given moment without having to ask, and not get offended by some of my thoughts.

You remind me of a Burka. Objectifying women and all that :P

[arista]

Italy has Fined a Woman
And the UKIP Policy is they must be removed for buildings
(Thats what there leader said today on a BBC Debate)

[Shasown]

You remind me of a Burka. Objectifying women and all that :P

Nah not really, just realistic to realise the British government will never ban the Burka, they may try to limit its use, in Banks and Post Offices, but the first legal challenge that takes it all the way to Strasborg will have them backing down.

Unlike the French government for example who realise Europe is a club to take benefits from and ignore rulings they dont like. (An example would be still not paying compensation to British Hauliers and sheep farmers ordered in the wake of the 1990 Farmers Blockade). Successive British Governments have simply rolled over and complied to just about every ruling from Europe.