Israeli commandos kill activists on a Ship in International waters

[arista]

Who the Hell do they think they are,
They break all the Rules and get the Yanks backing them.

"At least 10 pro-Palestinian activists were killed and dozens
injured in a battle at sea with Israeli naval commandos today,
sparking an international diplomatic crisis and the prospect
of angry demonstrations across Israel, the Palestinian territories, Turkey and beyond."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/31/israel-kills-activists-flotilla-gaza

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/05/31/article-1282802-09D483CC000005DC-505_634x458.jpg

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1282802/Israeli-forces-kill-19-people-carrying-aid-ship-Gaza.html


Sign Of The Times.

[Harry!]

Oh dear not looking good over there at the moment.

[ILoveTRW]

Israel ftw

[InOne]

They're both as bad as eachother.

[arista]

They're both as bad as eachother.


Turkey has Nothing to do with this.

[Crimson Dynamo]

is this about Eurovision?

[Shaun]

gaaah. If Palestine/Lebanon/another muslim nation had done this to Israel the west would have been up in arms...

I mean sure, Israel's under fire from a lot of religious nutters (see: Ahmedinejad) but they're really about as innocent as a fox in a coop.

[Spike]

I dislike Israel, the only reason countries hold back is because The USA back Israel.

[InOne]

So much hate passed down from generation to generation.

[Crimson Dynamo]

So much hate passed down from generation to generation.

Each have a good argument and can fully justify what they do in a logical way. The only solution is total forgiveness.

[Angus]

Israel will always have US backing, since they are the strategic proxy presence in the Middle East protecting US oil interests. It has nothing to do with the Jewish lobby in senate as many people believe - in fact it's the Democrats who attract the greatest amount of Jewish votes, YET it's the Republicans who have traditionally backed the Israelis. So long as there are massive oil reserves to be fought over, USA will continue to support the Israelis, whatever they might do.

The USA never do anything altruistically, there is always a massive element of self-interest.

[InOne]

Each have a good argument and can fully justify what they do in a logical way. The only solution is total forgiveness.

Which of course will never happen.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Which of course will never happen.

ask ourselves if we forgive when we have been wronged?

[arista]

Lauren Booth just Live on SkyNewsHD
was most angry outside the London Israeli Embassy
she said Sweden has Got rid of the Embassy staff
the UK must do the same.

[InOne]

ask ourselves if we forgive when we have been wronged?

I think it's gone beyond that with them.

[BB_Eye]

How can anybody say they're as bad as eachother?

It was not enough that Israel was set up illegally as a nation and forcibly drove Palestinians from their homes into those tiny ghettos known as the Gaza strip (an area smaller than the size of Newcastle) and the West Bank. They couldn't even stick to the UN partition and when Palestinians reacted, Israel bombed the **** out of their civilians and they justify the existence of their racist regime by labelling the Palestinians terrorists.

Modern day apartheid.

[BrooklynFan]

Hello??? Israeli soldiers first radioed the ships and told them to stop entering Gaza as tehre is a blockade there, as Hamas, a terrorist organization, has taken over it. the flotilla ignored them and continued on to Gaza. Israeli soldiers then entered the ship and were attacked by knives, metal bars and live fire. Ony then did the soldiers begin shooting TO DEFEND THEMSELVES. why, why, why is middle east press coverage ALWAYS biased and one-sided???

[BB_Eye]

Hello??? Israeli soldiers first radioed the ships and told them to stop entering Gaza as tehre is a blockade there, as Hamas, a terrorist organization, has taken over it. the flotilla ignored them and continued on to Gaza. Israeli soldiers then entered the ship and were attacked by knives, metal bars and live fire. Ony then did the soldiers begin shooting TO DEFEND THEMSELVES. why, why, why is middle east press coverage ALWAYS biased and one-sided???

This is just the Israeli Defense Force's spin on the story and even they admit they were blocking foreign aid.

[Sticks]

These ships were supplying terrorists who have been firing rockets at Israeli civilians.

They got off lightly with only 10 deaths

By international law, (Article 51 of the UN Convention), Israel had every right to sink every last ship with all hands.

[WOMBAI]

Personally - sick to death of terrorists - couldn't care less what happens to any of them!

[arista]

These ships were supplying terrorists who have been firing rockets at Israeli civilians.

They got off lightly with only 10 deaths

By international law, (Article 51 of the UN Convention), Israel had every right to sink every last ship with all hands.


"These ships were supplying terrorists who have been firing rockets at Israeli civilians."


Wrong they were supplying Aid for the public of Gaza

[Sticks]

They were supplying an area that is ruled by Hamas, a terrorist organisation which has as it's aim the annihilation of Israel.

Even supplying food to terrorists is supplying and giving succour and support to terrorists and their aims.

The people of Gaza know what they have to do and over throw the men of violence, namely Hamas, but they choose not to. In fact they voted in this terrorist organisation. Israel, under article 51 of the UN charter has every right to do what ever it takes to defend her people.

Israel so far has shown great restraint when it would be well with in it's right of self defence to take more aggressive action with more casualties to eradicate a threat to it's people.

[arista]

Food is needed for Children - Sticks,
as for your Yank Attitude,
You are on your own.

[Sticks]

So it is perfectly acceptable to fire rockets at civilians and go in with explosives around your body into a crowded market to kill as many women and children as possible, but not acceptable to try and prevent that?

The Palestinian authority of Hamas has pledged to annihilate another sovereign state. All the people of Gaza need to do is overthrow this terrorist regime. Until then Israel has every right given to it by Article 51 of the UN charter to defend it's people, just like we did when we sent the armada in 1982 when our sovereign territory was attacked by Argentina.

As the Israeli PM at the time observed, Britain was allowed to send forces halfway around the world under article 51, but Israel who is defending against a real threat much closer to home can do nothing?

[keithafc]

Im behind Israel on this.

There is a video on youtube of the stabbings.

Go Israel!

[arista]

"So it is perfectly acceptable to fire rockets at civilians and go in with explosives around your body into a crowded market to kill as many women and children as possible, but not acceptable to try and prevent that?"

Of Course not that is the Everyday War
that never ends.

The point is
the Ship folks had Sticks so the Nazi Type Israeli Gun Killers
shot them in cold blood.


You Stick with your Evil View
and the rest of the World will
be more fair.

[Sticks]

The ship people were ordered to dock at a particular port by the Navy because they were trying to supply terrorists.

When the commandos boarded the ships after the ships disobeyed a direct order, the people on the ship attacked first with knives and firearms. The commandos returned fire in self defence.

The navy could have just sank every last ship and made sure all the so called activist drowned to send a message out to those who would support terrorists, and still be justified in that action by Article 51 of the UN charter which allows for self defence.

As I said earlier, those in the ships got off lightly.

[arista]

"The commandos returned fire in self defence."


A Stick (the boat) Vs a Machine Gun.

Nazi Like for sure.


Result - Murder.
Guilty - Israeli.

[keithafc]

They attacked the Israel soilders.

[arista]

They attacked the Israel soilders.


Sure they did
they Fired Massive Nukes.

[keithafc]

Sure they did
they Fired Massive Nukes.
They KNIFED Israel soilders. There is PROOF of this on youtube. They fired the first shots and when you do this, you get all you deserve.

Its not nice, its a **** situation.

[Nemo123]

The ships were trying to break a blockade because Gaza is only getting about a quarter of its daily needs, because the Israelis have it under siege.

On the face of it, it was an act of piracy and murder to board a ship flying a Turkish flag in international waters.

[InOne]

There are already protests being set up. Looks like more anger and violence from Muslims in the UK.

[WOMBAI]

There are already protests being set up. Looks like more anger and violence from Muslims in the UK.

Just gives them another excuse!

[InOne]

http://www.facebook.com/#!/event.php?eid=115146515195439&ref=mf

[Nemo123]

Would you not agree this is an act of piracy, ie to forcefully board a ship flying a sovereign nation's flag, on the high seas?

Once again the Israelis have been caught perpetrating a criminal act. And they have the gall to call others terrorists.

[Sticks]

The ships were trying to break a blockade because Gaza is only getting about a quarter of its daily needs, because the Israelis have it under siege.


And Gaza is rightly under blockade because of the attacks on Israel by rockets and suicide bombers.

These ships were going to supply a terrorist regime and so Israel invoked its right under article 51 on the UN charter to do what it take to defend it's people.

[Nemo123]

And Gaza is rightly under blockade because of the attacks on Israel by rockets and suicide bombers.

These ships were going to supply a terrorist regime and so Israel invoked its right under article 51 on the UN charter to do what it take to defend it's people.

I don't accept the legitimacy of Israel and won't until they make terms with the Palestinians.

However, whatever side you're on, this was an act of piracy in international law on the high seas, and Israel can and I hope will be prosecuted for it.

[BrooklynFan]

This is just the Israeli Defense Force's spin on the story and even they admit they were blocking foreign aid.
Prime example of the one-sided media. The way this is being reported is how the pro-palestinians are spinning it

You dont enter a blockade and expect to go in smooth sailing! Youre asked to stop, you STOP. you dont start shooting and knifing the soldiers.

Ther's a REASON there's a blockade. and weapons are being smuggled on these 'innocent aide' ships.

[Nemo123]

Prime example of the one-sided media. The way this is being reported is how the pro-palestinians are spinning it

You dont enter a blockade and expect to go in smooth sailing! Youre asked to stop, you STOP. you dont start shooting and knifing the soldiers.

Ther's a REASON there's a blockade. and weapons are being smuggled on these 'innocent aide' ships.

They were in international waters. Israel has no jurisdiction.

Oh and btw, they're in an Isreli port now. Have the Israelis found any weapons?

[arista]

There are already protests being set up. Looks like more anger and violence from Muslims in the UK.



Of Course
and in Turkey.

[InOne]

Of Course
and in Turkey.

People die all the time in the Middle East are we're going to get a load of silly riots cos of that. Muslims do themselves no favours.

[Nemo123]

The protocol in these matters is usually to warn boats to turn back as they enter your territorial water. At that point and only then are you allowed take whatever steps necessary. The Israelis acted outside the law, but then again that's what they usually do.

[InOne]

I'm sure they'll become 'Martyrs' now anyway.

[arista]

People die all the time in the Middle East are we're going to get a load of silly riots cos of that. Muslims do themselves no favours.



Yes we will in London.

This is because it was Murder in International waters

[Novo]

I will be sending the red shirts over there to sort the Isreal twats out

[InOne]

Yes we will in London.

This is because it was Murder in International waters

Are you looking forward to it? Will you be attending?

[Nemo123]

The boats, according to reports were attacked 60 - 70 miles off the coast. In international waters.

Territorial waters, or a territorial sea, as defined by the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea[1], is a belt of coastal waters extending at most twelve nautical miles from the baseline (usually the mean low-water mark) of a coastal state. The territorial sea is regarded as the sovereign territory of the state, although foreign ships (both military and civilian) are allowed innocent passage through it; this sovereignty also extends to the airspace over and seabed below

[arista]

Yes the UN has said it is Wrong.

[keithafc]

Yes we will in London.

This is because it was Murder in International waters
They were a bunch of Israel haters anyway. Does the world really need it..

[BrooklynFan]

quoting something I found - these are not my words:




There was an interview today with ISrael radio and Greta berlin, spokesperson for the flotilla:

ISRAEL RADIO: Let me ask you a question. Why didn’t you accept Israel’s offer to bring the goods through the Port of Ashkelon to Gaza. You could have accepted the idea and by that you could have broken the Israeli blockade as well.

GRETA: Because you don’t tell the truth. You would never have delivered any of those supplies to Gaza because all of the supplies that we are bringing in are on the list of 2000 items that the people of Gaza cannot have to rebuild they society. So you never would have, you never would have permitted the supplies in. I do not believe the Israelis because every time one of your officials talks about bringing the supplies to Ashdod, they say food, clothing, and medicine. We don’t have any of that on board. We have cement, paper, water filtration systems, the things that will help the people of Gaza rebuild, and you do not allow those things in.

Rebuild, my foot. Now... WHY are cement, paper, water, filtration systems (ahem), not allowed in? Are those filtration systems going to be used to purify drinking water? Will they be used for central a/c in clinics? Why not just bring in water bottles?
The simple answer is: they are trying to build tunnels and bunkers. Which aren't exactly used for humanitarian purposes.
When was the last time that UN humanitarian aid packages didn't include bread, water, canned meat, medicine etc?

[Claymores]

Can I bet £5k that by the time the ship hits port, all the relief aid will be gone and it will be full of AK-47s. Mosad (Israeli Intelligence) will fix it 4 U - they're more oppressive than the Nazis

[Claymores]

quoting something I found - these are not my words:

And I'm annoyed Brookie that your president will say 0 about the murders on a relief boat - I thought pres promised was gonna tell true...............not waiting for MOSAD to plant arms on the boat so can support the evil Nazi Israelies who seem to have gone in "guns loaded, minds closed"

[Claymores]

Why on Earth was a holocaust survivor on the boat if it was not just bringing -in stuff to help take the misery out of Gaza?

[arista]

http://news.sky.com/sky-news/content/StaticFile/jpg/2010/May/Week4/15641269.jpg


http://news.sky.com/sky-news/content/StaticFile/jpg/2010/May/Week4/15641266.jpg

http://news.sky.com/sky-news/content/StaticFile/jpg/2010/May/Week4/15641268.jpg

http://news.sky.com/sky-news/content/StaticFile/jpg/2010/May/Week4/15641313.jpg

http://news.sky.com/sky-news/content/StaticFile/jpg/2010/May/Week4/15641288.jpg

[Sticks]

And again Israel coukld have legitimately sunk every last boat with all hands under it's right to self defence granted by Article 51 of the UN charter.

These terrorist sympathisers got off lightly

[Claymores]

And again Israel coukld have legitimately sunk every last boat with all hands under it's right to self defence granted by Article 51 of the UN charter.

These terrorist sympathisers got off lightly

Yup - those b'stards could have got off lightly for importing a holocaust survivor n some parts for wells - shoot them all, no questions asked - SUPER on Titanic 3 by sticks. Lets bomb Gaza as well just for a laugh eh Herr Sticks - zeig heil

The pathos is laughable Herr Sticks

[MojoNixon]

This is just the Israeli Defense Force's spin on the story

Not true at all.

And we all know these "peace convoys"....

http://www.firearmsfirst.com/images/illustrations/ak47/variants.jpg

[Claymores]

Not true at all.

And we all know these "peace convoys"....

http://www.firearmsfirst.com/images/illustrations/ak47/variants.jpg

Yup Mojo - now we can scuba into Medetterean and find parts of well tapping stuff and **** to help people - boat now is full of AK-47s courtesy of Isreeli attack planted MOSAD RULES

[MojoNixon]

Yup Mojo - now we can scuba into Medetterean and find parts of well tapping stuff and **** to help people - boat now is full of AK-47s courtesy of Isreeli attack planted MOSAD RULES

I was not saying that there were guns on that ship, but you know what they were heading to.

[Claymores]

I was not saying that there were guns on that ship, but you know what they were heading to.

I am saying the commandos went to murder on a civilian ship in international water - defend that idea pal?

[charliegimbert]

I am saying the commandos went to murder on a civilian ship in international water - defend that idea pal?

You really believe that propaganda?? Ok, fine....

[MojoNixon]

I am saying the commandos went to murder on a civilian ship in international water

Not really.

[Claymores]

You really believe that propaganda?? Ok, fine....

What propoganda? The ship was full of AK-47s destined for war or bricks to/help for the Palestinians?????? The boat even had a holocaust surviver on board supporting the Aid relief

What do you believe kiddo????? The Isreealis took out a warship full of guns and missiles????

[MojoNixon]

What propoganda? The ship was full of AK-47s destined for war or bricks to/help for the Palestinians?????? The boat even had a holocaust surviver on board supporting the Aid relief

What do you believe kiddo????? The Isreealis took out a warship full of guns and missiles????

Like this?

http://www.onefamilyfund.org/Portals/0/dead%20sea/Victims_Debris.jpg

[Claymores]

Some kids beggar belief Mojo - I give up and the Isreeali commandos were correct for bringing shot "in the head" iInstead of water to the Palistinians

[MojoNixon]

Some kids beggar belief Mojo

So are you saying that palestinians don't blow up Israel civilians?

[Claymores]

Sorry pal - I'm a bit huffed bout the Isreali mirders but will shut-up

[Claymores]

What would David say about the illegal killings?

[lime]

So are you saying that palestinians don't blow up Israel civilians?

Are you saying that is the reason the IDF killed civilians on internatioal waters yesterday ?And are you also saying that the IDF dont blow up palestinians civilians?

[Claymores]

Are you saying that is the reason the IDF killed civilians on internatioal waters yesterday ?And are you also saying that the IDF dont blow up palestinians civilians?

Nope - I believe MOSAD are the worst terrorists in the globe - worst even than the US who conduct black operations outwith control.

Killing peeople on an aid boat just dont work for me.

Are you a bit Nazi too?

[lime]

Nope - I believe MOSAD are the worst terrorists in the globe - worst even than the US who conduct black operations outwith control.

Killing peeople on an aid boat just dont work for me.

Are you a bit Nazi too?

My post was too mojo claymores.

[ElProximo]

Hello??? Israeli soldiers first radioed the ships and told them to stop entering Gaza as tehre is a blockade there, as Hamas, a terrorist organization, has taken over it. the flotilla ignored them and continued on to Gaza. Israeli soldiers then entered the ship and were attacked by knives, metal bars and live fire. Ony then did the soldiers begin shooting TO DEFEND THEMSELVES. why, why, why is middle east press coverage ALWAYS biased and one-sided???

Even though we may not know every detail about this incident I would say that overall the previous incidents suggest you are correct.
Meaning - it was self-defense.

Let me make this clear - I am NOT in love with Israel or running around arguing for them as my 'team'.
I may not even like Israel,
and,
I want to sympathize with any sincere hard-working Palestinian who is genuinely trying to live.

Problem.
Over and over again these incidents are NOT 'each is guilty' incidents but they are clearly Palestinian terrorists, murderers who absolutely can and will and often have INITIATED killings of innocent civilians.
Then,
What you see is the surprisingly measured and well executed RESPONSE in self-defense from the Israelis.

One of the MAIN REASONS for the Palestinian side losing my support is that they constantly think everyone else is so stupid as to fall for these contrived 'victim shows'.
This has sunk to lows of people KNOWING that Israeli soldiers are in an emergency search for a terrorist and yet popping their children up into windows in hopes the children is shot,
then,
howling in outrage to the media over how 'Israel killing innocent children' and then USING THAT as an excuse to blow up an Israeli boy next time around.
Its insulting to me.

People say 'well just imagine if Palestinians did this?'
Sure.
Here is the difference over and over:
- The Palestinians would go onto a bus full of innocent civilians and horrifically slaughter them for being Jews.

- The Jews then GO FIND those responsible and in an attempt to save future lives they will try their best to shoot and kill the people who planned it or will do it again.

IF people cannot see the difference then there is no hope anymore and nothing means anything.
Its not hard to see it.

Now.. I am NOT saying Israel is always right or doesn't screw up and I am not commenting on their policies here.
I'm talking about these types of incidents.

Sorry.. in a total political and social PoV I actually have my sympathies for Palestinians in general and as meaning the regular working people and families,
but,
As far as I can see this is another example where the Israelis are CLEARLY the good guys doing the correct thing AND it will ultimately save innocent lives and stopped people who are clearly in the wrong.

Of course we will follow the story here to see more.

[MojoNixon]

I believe MOSAD are the worst terrorists in the globe

Now don't be stupid.

[InOne]

Even though we may not know every detail about this incident I would say that overall the previous incidents suggest you are correct.
Meaning - it was self-defense.

Let me make this clear - I am NOT in love with Israel or running around arguing for them as my 'team'.
I may not even like Israel,
and,
I want to sympathize with any sincere hard-working Palestinian who is genuinely trying to live.

Problem.
Over and over again these incidents are NOT 'each is guilty' incidents but they are clearly Palestinian terrorists, murderers who absolutely can and will and often have INITIATED killings of innocent civilians.
Then,
What you see is the surprisingly measured and well executed RESPONSE in self-defense from the Israelis.

One of the MAIN REASONS for the Palestinian side losing my support is that they constantly think everyone else is so stupid as to fall for these contrived 'victim shows'.
This has sunk to lows of people KNOWING that Israeli soldiers are in an emergency search for a terrorist and yet popping their children up into windows in hopes the children is shot,
then,
howling in outrage to the media over how 'Israel killing innocent children' and then USING THAT as an excuse to blow up an Israeli boy next time around.
Its insulting to me.

People say 'well just imagine if Palestinians did this?'
Sure.
Here is the difference over and over:
- The Palestinians would go onto a bus full of innocent civilians and horrifically slaughter them for being Jews.

- The Jews then GO FIND those responsible and in an attempt to save future lives they will try their best to shoot and kill the people who planned it or will do it again.

IF people cannot see the difference then there is no hope anymore and nothing means anything.
Its not hard to see it.

Now.. I am NOT saying Israel is always right or doesn't screw up and I am not commenting on their policies here.
I'm talking about these types of incidents.

Sorry.. in a total political and social PoV I actually have my sympathies for Palestinians in general and as meaning the regular working people and families,
but,
As far as I can see this is another example where the Israelis are CLEARLY the good guys doing the correct thing AND it will ultimately save innocent lives and stopped people who are clearly in the wrong.

Of course we will follow the story here to see more.

I agree. The only thing that annoys me is the 'Muslim outrage' that will probably hit the UK. And they basically use the 'protests' to insult anyone who is not a muslim. And we let them.

[Nemo123]

The Israelis attacked these ships some 60 - 70 miles off the coast. Terroritorial waters extend only 12 miles beyond the coast. So this was an act of piracy on the high seas, on a ship bearing a Turkish flag, involving murder and kidnap. Those are the facts.

[arista]

The Israelis attacked these ships some 60 - 70 miles off the coast. Terroritorial waters extend only 12 miles beyond the coast. So this was an act of piracy on the high seas, on a ship bearing a Turkish flag, involving murder and kidnap. Those are the facts.



Yes Facts that Poster Sticks
Ignores

[MojoNixon]

The Israelis attacked these ships some 60 - 70 miles off the coast. Terroritorial waters extend only 12 miles beyond the coast. So this was an act of piracy on the high seas, on a ship bearing a Turkish flag, involving murder and kidnap. Those are the facts.

Nope.

[Claymores]

I agree. The only thing that annoys me is the 'Muslim outrage' that will probably hit the UK. And they basically use the 'protests' to insult anyone who is not a muslim. And we let them.

You're such a caring wee soul - it pours out of every word :thumbs:

[MojoNixon]

You're such a caring wee soul - it pours out of every word :thumbs:

http://www.honestreporting.ca/images/sce/Suicide%20bomber.jpg

[Claymores]

http://www.honestreporting.ca/images/sce/Suicide%20bomber.jpg

That could be me if Engerland beat Argentina in the quarter-finals!

[MojoNixon]

yWIFhKYiMqU

[Nemo123]

That could be me if Engerland beat Argentina in the quarter-finals!

:hugesmile:

[Nemo123]

Breaking news:

Egypt has opened its border to Gaza.

[MojoNixon]

Breaking news:

Egypt has opened its border to Gaza.

:xyxwave: world peace

[Nemo123]

:xyxwave: worldpeace

I only wish the Arabs had as big a military complex as Israel, so we might see a fair fight.

[MojoNixon]

I only wish the Arabs had as big a military complex as Israel, so we might see a fair fight.

Ah i see. What you would love em to do? Kill em?

[Nemo123]

Ah i see. What you would love em to do? Kill em?

Engage in a fight on equal terms.

Didn't you see the Israelis blow the sh1t out of Beirut in 2006? Do you think those bombs killed no-one?

[MojoNixon]

Engage in a fight on equal terms.

Didn't you see the Israelis blow the sh1t out of Beirut in 2006? Do you think those bombs killed no-one?

Equal terms? Do you remeber who are Israels neighbours? Bombs killed no-one? Like suicide bombs? Rockets launched from Beirut?

[Nemo123]

Equal terms? Do you remeber who are Israels neighbours? Bombs killed no-one? Like suicide bombs? Rockets launched from Beirut?

Basically, I believe the Palestinians are the rightful owners of Palestine, and the Israelis must come to terms with them. It's their land.

Beyond that, it's a war between 2 very unequal sides, and neither methodology has the higher moral ground. Morals went out the window in war a long time ago, with the carpet bombing of cities in WW2 etc.

[MojoNixon]

Basically, I believe the Palestinians are the rightful owners of Palestine, and the Israelis must come to terms with them. It's their land.

Beyond that, it's a war between 2 very unequal sides, and neither methodology has the higher moral ground. Morals went out the window in war a long time ago, with the carpet bombing of cities in WW2 etc.

So it does not matter if Israel civilians are getting killed. It comes quite clear that who you are supporting (and why).

[Nemo123]

So it does not matter if Israel civilians are getting killed. It comes quite clear that who you are supporting (and why).

It's a war, people on both sides are being killed, many many more Palestinians killed by Israel than vice-verse, btw.

[MojoNixon]

It's a war, people on both sides are being killed, many many more Palestinians killed by Israel than vice-verse, btw.

Not true.

[Nemo123]

Not true.

It is. I know even before googling.

It was 4 times as many, 165 v 549 in 2000.

[MojoNixon]

It is. I know even before googling.

Fine, you might be google generation, but we all know that suicidebombing has been going on for ages (and another terror attacks). But i let you live on your dreams (involve killing and all that). Case closed from my side.

[Nemo123]

Fine, you might be google generation, but we all know that suicidebombing has been going on for ages (and another terror attacks). But i let you live on your dreams (involve killing and all that). Mind closed from my side.

Fixed that for you.

[MojoNixon]

Fixed that for you.

So kill the jews? That's what you thinking? No need to talk with you.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Just watched the video of the Israeli troops sliding down ropes to get on-board and then being attacked violently by a baying mob with iron bars and clubs, some being thrown overside.

not nice. no wonder the Israelis opened fire, they had to to save lives.

[Nemo123]

So kill the jews? That's what you thinking? No need to talk with you.

Oi vay!

Take off your blinkers and look at the entire picture.

[Nemo123]

Just watched the video of the Israeli troops sliding down ropes to get on-board and then being attacked violently by a baying mob with iron bars and clubs, some being thrown overside.

not nice. no wonder the Israelis opened fire, they had to to save lives.

Oh the poor little commandos, armed to the teeth, trained to kill. How many of them died btw?

[lime]

Just watched the video of the Israeli troops sliding down ropes to get on-board and then being attacked violently by a baying mob with iron bars and clubs, some being thrown overside.

not nice. no wonder the Israelis opened fire, they had to to save lives.
Was this a full unedited video or the video that the IDF released?

[Claymores]

In 1973 on Yom Kippur, the Arabs launched an offensive to get the Palestinians territory back. America provided satellite intelligence and military advisors to Isreal. (and bankrolled the war)

Arab countries now know better than to attack as USA just wins.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Oh the poor little commandos, armed to the teeth, trained to kill. How many of them died btw?

watch the video

[Crimson Dynamo]

Was this a full unedited video or the video that the IDF released?

full

[Claymores]

America will show the full truth soon LT - the brave Isrealis mounted a heavily armed gunboat bringing missiles in, not humanitarian aid. CNN will show the AK47s these bastwards were using.

[Crimson Dynamo]

it is not just as innocent a situation as it seems. there are some gullible westerners on the boats

[lime]

full
Link please

[lime]

full
Link please.

[Claymores]

it is not just as innocent a situation as it seems. there are some gullible westerners on the boats

A holocaust survivor was coming in with the humaitarian aid - MOSAD/Isreali commandos still decided to shoot their way in, in international waters

[Crimson Dynamo]

Link please.

it was on liveleak but has been disabled. If you search around it will pop up again, all over the place i would imagine

[Crimson Dynamo]

Israel releases footage of weapons haul found on Gaza peace ship

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1283077/Israeli-Gaza-aid-flotilla-raid-British-families-face-anxious-wait-news.html#ixzz0pcbgDWDl

[Crimson Dynamo]

Y9MD5AEOihE

[Claymores]

Piracy and murders in international waters.............UFFFFF

Get these murderers into war crimes tribuneral

[Claymores]

I think Isreal was probably correct - the boats were full of WMD - bricks to throw at the Abrahams M1 tanks destroying their homes.

USA suppoerts this, we're complicit by not insisting the hundreds of UN resolutions are not imposed against that gangsta state called Isreal

[Shasown]

If Israel didnt have an internationally condemned blockade of the Gaza strip which is in effect slowly starving the Palestinians there would be no need for International Aid to be sent into the area.

The UN have asked Israel to lift the blockade, Israel refused.
The UN states that the aid Israel allows into Gaza is actually less than 1/4 needed to stop the people living there from starving, Israel says tough.
The UN also accepts that Israel has in the past taken over areas already ceded to the Palestinians in previous peace treaties. Israel doesnt care. That is the reason Hamas is still active.

Conclusion Israel intends to starve the people living in Gaza either into extinction or until they force them to leave the area totally. Isnt that genocide and as such a crime against humanity.

We have blockade runners taking in food and building supplies. Israel mounts an operation to seize control of the vessels being used, on the high seas. An act of piracy, pure and simple. Article 51 of the UN charter does not give them the right to mount operations such as these until the vessels are within Israeli territorial waters.

The people on the ships although intending to break a blockade hadnt done so nor were they in Israeli waters, They have a right to defend themselves against the commandos, who were attempting to take control of the vessel illegally.

Now lets look at the Israeli operation, they used special forces to assault ships but failed big time, in order to establish a foothold on any enemy territory the initial assault needs to be fast and of sufficient scale to establish a safe area from which you can build up sufficient forces to a level where you can break out and gain control of the vital areas(key points) of the vessel namely the control room(bridge) and engine room. Or as they hoped a small team in fast to seize the bridge, however it would have to be a very co ordinated assault. The Israeli operation wasnt.

Once the troops who were to all extents special forces got bogged down in their assault they should have used non lethal means to defend themselves till there was sufficient numbers to regain the initiative in their assault. They are trained in unarmed combat and they do have access to non lethal weapons. They didnt, they started to open fire, this indicates either poorly disciplined troops or a badly led operation. The second indication is my guess.

What should happen is the International community should break the blockade supervised by the UN. Israel agreed to the setting up of the Palestinian enclaves, they should stand by that agreement. They havent.

The UN should once again send in peacekeeping forces to ensure that both sides observe a ceasefire. If Israel disagrees to that then sanctions should be enforced against Israel.

That wont happen because America supports Israel and needs its friendship.

The Israelis will wait out the international uproar and continue to do what they want. The slow starvation and destruction of the Palestinian communities. They always have and they always will do.

[setanta]

Yeah, that sounds logical. They ballsed up an illegal operation.

[Claymores]

Wise words shas - USA will always support whatever crimes the Isrealis commit - UN have passed many resolutions against them but never enforce as we're under the influence of the only superpowe who could actually take action.r

[Shasown]

Israel releases footage of weapons haul found on Gaza peace ship

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1283077/Israeli-Gaza-aid-flotilla-raid-British-families-face-anxious-wait-news.html#ixzz0pcbgDWDl

I noticed they didnt display the assault rifles, machine guns, pistols tear gas and other grenades carried by their pirates?

I notice from the article you linked to that after a 12 hour sitting the UN condemned the attack.

[Sticks]

Gaza, under Hamas is a terrorist state aimed at the complete annihilation and elimination of Israel

Under article 51 of the UN charter Israel is entitled to do what ever it takes and use all means to defend it's people.

It has the right to blockade Gaza and restrict supplies to prevent attacks on it's people. Israel has the right to take military action against those supporters of terrorism that were in those ships up to and including deadly force.

That is international law.

[Claymores]

I noticed they didnt display the assault rifles, machine guns, pistols tear gas and other grenades carried by their pirates?

I notice from the article you linked to that after a 12 hour sitting the UN condemned the attack.

I tell you true Terry - MOSAD will have been busy throwing Aid Relief into the Med and replacing the cargo with AK-47s

[Shasown]

Gaza, under Hamas is a terrorist state aimed at the complete annihilation and elimination of Israel

And Israel has proved it is dedicated to the destruction of all Palestinians regardless of whether they support Hamas or not.

Under article 51 of the UN charter Israel is entitled to do what ever it takes and use all means to defend it's people.

No it must comply with the Geneva Convention, The Law of Armed Conflcit, UN Security Councils and other UN Resolutions also a whole host of other UN articles which take precedence over Article 51.

It has the right to blockade Gaza and restrict supplies to prevent attacks on it's people. Israel has the right to take military action against those supporters of terrorism that were in those ships up to and including deadly force.

That is international law.

Yes but under other UN Articles which are more binding and take higher priority it has the obligations to ensure non combatants do not suffer unnecessarily whilst it conducts military operations against a designated enemy.

It does not have the right to decide arbitrarily what it will and wont allow into Gaza even though the UN has in the past given a complete list of Foodstuffs, Water and water filtration systems, blankets, shelters, building materials etc that must be allowed in.

It does not have the right to starve the Palestinian people into either submission nor extinction.

Lets face it Israel doesnt care about Internation Law, Human Rights, etc and it doesnt listen to either the UN or the International Community at large.

[Claymores]

I agree. The only thing that annoys me is the 'Muslim outrage' that will probably hit the UK. And they basically use the 'protests' to insult anyone who is not a muslim. And we let them.

I'm not a Muslim but I'm offended by piriacy and murder in international waters against an aid relief boat

You support piracy and murders sponsored by a state it seems

[ElProximo]

I'm not a Muslim but I'm offended by piriacy and murder in international waters against an aid relief boat

You support piracy and murders sponsored by a state it seems


Get real!

You do not believe.. not for 1 second... you do not believe that they were 'Pirates' or 'Murderers'.

You know full well that the reason the Israelis stopped this boat was because they did believe it was entering their waters,
and,
they did believe (rightly or wrongly) this boat was carrying illegal weapons, illegal cash and terrorist supporters,
and,
they stopped it with every hope and intention of arresting those involved and confiscating the weapons.

Nobody believes Israelis were just marauding the ocean and decided to pirate this boat or start 'murdering' anyone.

I think the Jews are extremely unhappy about this because this is the last thing they ever want anyone to see,
but,
they WERE hoping they would not only find a big cache of weapons intended for terrorists,
and,
to look very cool marching off with a few known terrorist types in handcuffs.

But nobody thinks they were pirating that boat and certainly not there to murder anyone.

In this case - I don't believe THIS boat was shipping weapons to terrorists (unless we see more later),
and,
so far I haven't heard any 'big names' in terms of who they arrested or killed although lets see.

Here again the Palestinian side loses all my support by playing a propaganda game which assumed we are all stupid and gullible.

[InOne]

I'm not a Muslim but I'm offended by piriacy and murder in international waters against an aid relief boat

You support piracy and murders sponsored by a state it seems

I'm talking about how a 'peaceful' religion suddenly becomes violent.

[Shasown]

Get real!

You do not believe.. not for 1 second... you do not believe that they were 'Pirates' or 'Murderers'.

You know full well that the reason the Israelis stopped this boat was because they did believe it was entering their waters,
and,
they did believe (rightly or wrongly) this boat was carrying illegal weapons, illegal cash and terrorist supporters,
and,
they stopped it with every hope and intention of arresting those involved and confiscating the weapons.

Nobody believes Israelis were just marauding the ocean and decided to pirate this boat or start 'murdering' anyone.

I think the Jews are extremely unhappy about this because this is the last thing they ever want anyone to see,
but,
they WERE hoping they would not only find a big cache of weapons intended for terrorists,
and,
to look very cool marching off with a few known terrorist types in handcuffs.

But nobody thinks they were pirating that boat and certainly not there to murder anyone.

In this case - I don't believe THIS boat was shipping weapons to terrorists (unless we see more later),
and,
so far I haven't heard any 'big names' in terms of who they arrested or killed although lets see.

Here again the Palestinian side loses all my support by playing a propaganda game which assumed we are all stupid and gullible.

Nah I think you need to "get real" as you put it, last week all the boats were inspected by Cypriot authorities, its something they do when vessels from another country dock or even lay over in their waters, something lots of countries do.

Similarly when the boats were loaded they were loaded under an inspection team, from Turkish customs, Turkey was relatively friendly with Israel until fairly recently.

You honestly believe that Mossad didnt honestly know exactly what was on each vessel, if they didnt they are really slipping, they are without doubt the best intelligence operatives in the world. It wouldnt surprise to learn in a few months or years time they even had operatives in amongst the crews or the blockade busters.

You will notice I use the words 'boats' and 'vessels' whereas you use the singular "boat" "this Boat" etc at least 7 times in the above post. Just to correct your misapprehension the relief florilla consisted of 6 ships not one boat.

Incidentally the boats were not entering Israeli territorial waters they were over 3 hours sailing from that. And regardless of what you now think of Israeli forces it was no map reading error, they have some of the best equipment money can buy, plus they are one of the few other countries that have full access to the US military Sat Nav systems.

The Israeli national mindset isnt looking to be seen as cool, they just do what they want, what they consider necessary to achieve their aims, legal or not. Look at the assassination of Hamas leader Mahmoud al-Mabhouh in Dubai earlier this year.

[setanta]

USA and Turkey are condemning the attacks too. Israel are losing allies fast. Not sure if it'll make any difference to their embargo though.

[MassiveTruck]

Food is needed for Children - Sticks,
as for your Yank Attitude,
You are on your own.

Arista, there is regular aid of the size that the convoy had being pumped into palestine through the correct channels. God knows who came up with the idea for this because it seems to be drummed up by students from ex-polys.

[arista]

Arista, there is regular aid of the size that the convoy had being pumped into palestine through the correct channels. God knows who came up with the idea for this because it seems to be drummed up by students from ex-polys.


Sure
These Ships had MP's on them
and Health Foods needed urgent.


Next time
Turkey Warships can back them.
Then it will be a Big War.


http://news.sky.com/sky-news/content/StaticFile/jpg/2010/Jun/Week1/15641860.jpg

[ElProximo]

You honestly believe that Mossad didnt honestly know exactly what was on each vessel, if they didnt they are really slipping, they are without doubt the best intelligence operatives in the world. It wouldnt surprise to learn in a few months or years time they even had operatives in amongst the crews or the blockade busters.


You just constantly walk into 'fail' and here again is just another 'open-ended insinuation' that makes no sense:

First, we already know that plenty of inspected boats come and go with all kinds of illegal weapons, people, contraband.
THIS IS HOW ITS DONE.
This is why they inspect boats leaving AND ARRIVING because its not unusual they get past the 'leaving' inspections.
IF we used your thinking then we would just stop inspecting arrivals?
Hey.. they were inspected leaving!
Dumb.

The other problem is that you 'seem' to be saying you believe they absolutely knew there were no weapons or terrorists on this boat.
OK.
So it would seem the only explanation left is that you think they were just attacking the people onboard.
really?
You actually think that is what they were doing - just attacking the boats because.. vengeance or something?
Grow up.
You do NOT think that.

Oh.. I have no doubt they boarded because they believed they would arrest a few and find some weapons yes,
but,
obviously they were not just cruising waters looking to 'pirate attack' and obviously they DO NOT want this bad press.

btw.. take a look at the video taken from BOTH sides in this - it becomes a whole helluva lot more obvious:
- They are attacked before they hit the ground and after and actually take TOO LONG before they start shooting.
Its only when two of their guys are being HORRIFICALLY murdered they have no choice but to shoot at the murderers.
Arguably, some take TOO LONG to fire on the murderers.

I think your conspiracy theory is something you don't believe in. You are just saying things you hope gets sympathy and political points for what 'side' you think you should take.
Right?

[Shasown]

You just constantly walk into 'fail' and here again is just another 'open-ended insinuation' that makes no sense:

First, we already know that plenty of inspected boats come and go with all kinds of illegal weapons, people, contraband.
THIS IS HOW ITS DONE.
This is why they inspect boats leaving AND ARRIVING because its not unusual they get past the 'leaving' inspections.
IF we used your thinking then we would just stop inspecting arrivals?
Hey.. they were inspected leaving!
Dumb.

The other problem is that you 'seem' to be saying you believe they absolutely knew there were no weapons or terrorists on this boat.
OK.
So it would seem the only explanation left is that you think they were just attacking the people onboard.
really?
You actually think that is what they were doing - just attacking the boats because.. vengeance or something?
Grow up.
You do NOT think that.

Oh.. I have no doubt they boarded because they believed they would arrest a few and find some weapons yes,
but,
obviously they were not just cruising waters looking to 'pirate attack' and obviously they DO NOT want this bad press.

btw.. take a look at the video taken from BOTH sides in this - it becomes a whole helluva lot more obvious:
- They are attacked before they hit the ground and after and actually take TOO LONG before they start shooting.
Its only when two of their guys are being HORRIFICALLY murdered they have no choice but to shoot at the murderers.
Arguably, some take TOO LONG to fire on the murderers.

I think your conspiracy theory is something you don't believe in. You are just saying things you hope gets sympathy and political points for what 'side' you think you should take.
Right?

Nope as I often tell you, its not often you are right but you are Wrong again.

Yes plenty of boats do come and go and pick up illicit cargoes, but not while under satellite surveillance, the Yanks do give live feed satellite data to allies and Israel is a big ally.

The Israelis do not play by the rules as they have shown time and again, they went in to seize the boats and take them to Ashdod where the cargo would have been destroyed.

If you believe the Israelis didnt know the exact contents of the cargo of each of the SIX vessels then you totally underestimate Israeli intelligence.

The Israelis decided to storm the boats outside of territorial waters. knowing they would take some criticism for it, but not giving a damn because they dont care about condemnation, look at the outrages they have committed over the last 20 years.

The troops storming the ships were too slow in approaching by helicopter and too slow rappelling down to the boats that is why an effective defence albeit by primitive weapons in the hands of civilians was able to be enacted.

Losing the initiative of their assault they then had to open fire to regain the initiative. If you take that to mean defend themselves, then fine read that as you will.

Two of their guys being horrifically murdered? Where did you dig that nugget from? The Israeli casualties amounted to seven injured commandos. That is all no dead.

I think you have been watching different videos than the rest of the world seeing as the UN has condemned the operation. The US and UK have also done so. In fact most of the world has except for the Israelis themselves, you and a handful of other misguided people.

As for the fail you say I walked into. Nah just you typing that garbage shows what a fail you are.

Incidentally what you class as a conspiracy theory - the Israelis knowing that the cargos were simply humanitarian aid. I believe totally, I know the US, UK and Israeli intelligence agencies share information. They probably did this time round. I also never underestimate the abilities of Mossad.

Now its time for Uncle Terry to educate you again by way of a little bit of proof.


From the UN's own website:

1 June 2010 – The United Nations Human Rights Council is holding an urgent debate in Geneva today, taking up the issue of yesterday’s Israeli raid on a convoy of ships carrying humanitarian aid and heading for Gaza.
Deputy UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Kyung-wha Kang expressed shock “that humanitarian aid would be met with such violence, and we unequivocally condemn what appears to be a disproportionate use of force.”

She again appealed for an end to the blockade of the Gaza Strip, causing the suffering of 1.5 million Palestinians, which she characterized as “an affront to human dignity.”

Ms. Kang expressed hope that “the Israeli Government will take the necessary decisive actions to demonstrate to the international community a clear commitment to abide by international law.”

Yesterday, the High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay emphasized that “nothing can justify the appalling outcome” of the military operation, which killed at least 10 people and injured dozens of others.

She joined Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, the Security Council and others in calling for a probe into the operation, underscoring the need for accountability.

Ms. Pillay called on the Israeli Government to heed the “almost unanimous international view that the continued blockade of Gaza is both inhumane and illegal.”

The blockade, she pointed out, “lies at the heart of so many of the problems plaguing the Israel-Palestine situation, as does the impression that the Israeli Government treats international law with perpetual disdain.”

Without the blockade, the High Commissioner noted, “there would be no need for flotillas like this.”

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=34881&Cr=palestin&Cr1=



Now I really am sorry to remove your rose tinted glasses me old mate but you really need to get your head out of your ass.

The Israeli commandos who stormed the ship did have non lethal weapons and if the operation had been properly organised and led then they might not have needed to use live arms:


Speaking for the first time since the raid, survivors claimed the battle was one-sided with Israeli commandos using stun grenades, sound bombs, teargas, rubber bullets and live rounds.

"It was like war," said Annette Groth, a German politician who was on the Mavi Marmara, the activists' flagship. "They had guns, Taser weapons, some type of teargas and other weaponry, compared to two-and-a-half wooden sticks we had between us. To talk of self-defence is ridiculous."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/01/gaza-flotilla-deaths-pressure-israel-inquiry

[ElProximo]

Two of their guys being horrifically murdered? Where did you dig that nugget from? The Israeli casualties amounted to seven injured commandos. That is all no dead.

Exactly.
You only need to see the way they are swinging those pipes to see an attempted murder,
and,
the ONLY reason the horrific bludgeoning (what a way to die) only stopped because they finally put a bullet in the sickos.


Incidentally what you class as a conspiracy theory - the Israelis knowing that the cargos were simply humanitarian aid. I believe totally, I know the US, UK and Israeli intelligence agencies share information. They probably did this time round.


Right - so just to be clear you believe they were on those ships to murder people and stop food from getting to poor people?
Just be clear.
Say it.
Stop 'insinuating and talking around it and just say it outright?
Then stop and realize how stupid that sounds.

[Shasown]

Exactly.
You only need to see the way they are swinging those pipes to see an attempted murder,
and,
the ONLY reason the horrific bludgeoning (what a way to die) only stopped because they finally put a bullet in the sickos..

No the assualting force also had non lethal weapons, so resorting to live rounds was the last option but as often happens with Israeli operations they were allowed to resort to them before all other options had been exhausted.

I take it you have never had rubber bullets fired at you, nor been in an area where CS or similar has been used? Nor been shot and wounded?




Right - so just to be clear you believe they were on those ships to murder people and stop food from getting to poor people?
Just be clear.
Say it.
Stop 'insinuating and talking around it and just say it outright?
Then stop and realize how stupid that sounds.

No I never said they went into kill people. The Israeli forces like to strike hard and fast, gaining the upper hand ideally with minimal casualties. They are briefed to use aggression and speed to gain the initiative, however as soon as any of their operations start to stall, especially when using non lethal tactics they always resort to the use of live rounds in order to regain the initiative and not lose the momentim of their attacks.

Believe it or not they have been criticised at the UN for it many many times.

I see you have dropped your argument now of them defending their territory, not being guilty of piracy on the high seas, etc.

Please dont try to put words into my text, it wont work. It only shows how weak your argument is.

Would you like fries with that portion of truth?

[ElProximo]

No I never said they went into kill people.

Well then why don't you say what you think they were doing?
Was it to steal from them as 'pirates' would?
To murder people?
This was what you first suggested. So what do you accuse them of doing here?



I see you have dropped your argument now of them defending their territory, not being guilty of piracy on the high seas, etc.

No you didn't see that. I have no doubt they did this because they believed there was a threat to their country.
Whether that was straight-up weapons or cash or terrorists or whatever combination.

Please dont try to put words into my text, it wont work. It only shows how weak your argument is.


I have to help you. You first call them 'pirates' and 'murderers' and then 'imply' there is no other explanation,
Then you 'talk around' some insinuations.
Then you 'dont not admit you were wrong'.

So just come out and say what you really think they were doing captain self-pwnage?

[Shasown]

They assaulted ships on the high seas outside of their territorial waters without legal intent, to take command without consent of the owners of said ships that makes them pirates.

They resorted to the use of lethal force in pursuit of this aim, even though they were also equipped with non lethal weapons. By using lethal force to obtain an illegal aim, that makes them murderers.

They may have been under the illusion they were operating within the law, they may have thought the activists on the vessels would simply surrender, that doesnt matter.

Same as if a burglar broke into your house armed with a knife and gun, threatened you with the knife you fought back and he then shot you dead, in the UK they would start with a murder charge.

If they had waited until the boats had actually crossed into their territory, same action same result, a lot less criticism.

The Israelis simply wanted to ensure their illegal blockade wasnt broken, full stop.

What part are you still having difficulty understanding, EL?

[ElProximo]

They assaulted ships on the high seas outside of their territorial waters without legal intent, to take command without consent of the owners of said ships that makes them pirates.

No it doesn't.
IF they believed there was an incoming terrorist threat and believing it was aimed at its country then you bet they can go stop them.


They resorted to the use of lethal force in pursuit of this aim, even though they were also equipped with non lethal weapons. By using lethal force to obtain an illegal aim, that makes them murderers.

No it does not.
You are such a phony because there is NO WAY you would be saying this in any other scenario.
First I'm genuinely shocked those 2 Israelis survived after seeing the horrific metal bar destruction,
and,
there is no doubt about this whatsoever - when you have microsecond and every single blow coming down is a 'death blow' you must immediately STOP the attacker.
You DO NOT do anything else.

IF you saw this EXACT scenario happening in downtown London you would NEVER say they ought to have resorted to tasers or rubber bullets and YOU would actually criticise them for taking TOO LONG to stop the raining death blows.


They may have been under the illusion they were operating within the law, they may have thought the activists on the vessels would simply surrender, that doesnt matter.


Yes it definitely does matter. intent is 9/10s of the law. Of course it matters. Its the 'debate' we are having too.

Same as if a burglar broke into your house armed with a knife and gun, threatened you with the knife you fought back and he then shot you dead, in the UK they would start with a murder charge.

It would not be a 'murder charge' (notice the sneaky little ways you use words you wimp lol),
but,
No, of course not. It would only be 'murder' IF you were certain they were no longer a threat and then you killed them.

Here again shows your total insincerity because IF you saw a crook breaking into a neighbours car.
IF you then ran over to stop him.
IF that crook them pulled out a metal bar and began smashing your head in...

...you would be OUTRAGED if the police did anything less than immediately stop the smashing blows on your head with the fastest and most effective immediate way.
You would NEVER apologize for 'commandeering' the man on the public street and you would actually be INFURIATED if the police did not do anything but instantly fire on the crook before that 6th blow.. 7th blow... killed you.


The Israelis simply wanted to ensure their illegal blockade wasnt broken, full stop.


It is not 'illegal' and they can do what they want.
I don't even say I like it but Israel gets to make their own laws about their own country.
Period.
What are YOU confused about?
They are not allowed in and so they stopped them.
Its very simple.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I know what I saw and the folks on the boat were lynching the Israeli troops, to death

there was NO other option for the soldiers

I have seen many attacks on people around the world and I know when people aim for death, the folks on that boat were in for the kill.

politics aside, they wanted to kill the soldiers

[lime]

I know what I saw and the folks on the boat were lynching the Israeli troops, to death

there was NO other option for the soldiers

I have seen many attacks on people around the world and I know when people aim for death, the folks on that boat were in for the kill.

politics aside, they wanted to kill the soldiers

Ok LT,you know what you saw ,you saw the Israeli troops being lynched to death,so how many of them died and how many casualties did they have?

I just don't trust a story when we are only allowed info from one side.Israel could be right,this could have been a flotilla of Iranians pretending to be British,Irish,German,french etc intent on committing murder.It wouldn't be the first time a nation made illegal copies of other nations passports to carry out murder.

[lime]

Arista, there is regular aid of the size that the convoy had being pumped into palestine through the correct channels. God knows who came up with the idea for this because it seems to be drummed up by students from ex-polys.

You are correct,there is regular aid the size of the convoy getting through to Palestine,the problem is ,its not enough hence the reason the UN are saying there is a humanitarian crisis in Palestine.So you are wrong to say its being "pumped "in.
I really don't know what comes under the category of Weapons of mass destruction ,but seriously cement and pasta????

[ElProximo]

I know what I saw and the folks on the boat were lynching the Israeli troops, to death

there was NO other option for the soldiers

I have seen many attacks on people around the world and I know when people aim for death, the folks on that boat were in for the kill.

politics aside, they wanted to kill the soldiers

The more I'm watching the videos (which includes some footage from both sides) the more it just becomes very obvious it was a straight-up lynch mob and there is absolutely no doubt it was for full-on murder.

If anything I say the Israelis could not have responded 1 second later than they did and the murder muslims on board are lucky more of them did not get killed.

YES... I will still want to see more information but at this time its becoming very obvious who the murderers are.

One thing I WILL reject from the Israeli argument (and its unnecessary) is showing pocket knives as if catching weapons.
No.
Everyone I know who is working on a ship owns a pocket knife and its not strange to have even large knives carrying cargo, boxes, undoubtedly plenty of ropes etc.
However,
That is hardly as important as the real problem of PEOPLE STABBING THEM WITH KNIVES IMMEDIATELY.

I am no fan of Israel but this time around, the more I see the more I have to say they were in the right here.

*btw.. I do think any and all 'normal passengers' who were not involved and were part of the team SHOULD be released as soon as possible. It does appear that IS what they Israelis are doing.

[Crimson Dynamo]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=352_1275418848

[eye sea]

I seriously don't know who is right and who is wrong.

[Shasown]

It would not be a 'murder charge' (notice the sneaky little ways you use words you wimp lol),

IF you then ran over to stop him.
IF that crook them pulled out a metal bar and began smashing your head in...

...you would be OUTRAGED if the police did anything less than immediately stop the smashing blows on your head with the fastest and most effective immediate way.
You would NEVER apologize for 'commandeering' the man on the public street and you would actually be INFURIATED if the police did not do anything but instantly fire on the crook before that 6th blow.. 7th blow... killed you.



It is not 'illegal' and they can do what they want.
I don't even say I like it but Israel gets to make their own laws about their own country.
Period.
What are YOU confused about?
They are not allowed in and so they stopped them.
Its very simple.

You lost the argument several posts ago, there is no need to try calling me names again.

The point being the Israelis were carrying out the illegal actions by attempting to take control of several ships that were outside of their waters, What part of that are you still failing to grasp?

I know what I saw and the folks on the boat were lynching the Israeli troops, to death


Lynching them to death? So how many dead Israelis were carried off any of the vessels?


The more I'm watching the videos (which includes some footage from both sides) the more it just becomes very obvious it was a straight-up lynch mob and there is absolutely no doubt it was for full-on murder.

If anything I say the Israelis could not have responded 1 second later than they did and the murder muslims on board are lucky more of them did not get killed.

YES... I will still want to see more information but at this time its becoming very obvious who the murderers are.

One thing I WILL reject from the Israeli argument (and its unnecessary) is showing pocket knives as if catching weapons.
No.
Everyone I know who is working on a ship owns a pocket knife and its not strange to have even large knives carrying cargo, boxes, undoubtedly plenty of ropes etc.
However,
That is hardly as important as the real problem of PEOPLE STABBING THEM WITH KNIVES IMMEDIATELY.

I am no fan of Israel but this time around, the more I see the more I have to say they were in the right here.

*btw.. I do think any and all 'normal passengers' who were not involved and were part of the team SHOULD be released as soon as possible. It does appear that IS what they Israelis are doing.

The knives shown by the Israeli spokespeople were all pocket knifes or kitchen knives, not the most effective weapons.

Incidentally one daft question you ever tried to lynch a man who is wearing Combat Body armour and a kevlar helmet? Trust me on this one I have experience of being hit with batons while wearing that sort of kit and being a person inflicting the beating. It would take more than a couple of minutes, if the person on the receiving end is a combat soldier who has trained for this sort of eventuality.

The Commandos used during the assault are extremely well trained and most will have gone in and kicked the crap out of palestinians before.

One other point if the Israelis are so squeaky clean in your eyes how come the UK, The US, the UN, and Uncle Tom Cobley and all, all condemned the operation?

Answer me that one question without the usual insults, flying off at a tangent or your usual avoidance. Bet you cant.

[ElProximo]

The point being the Israelis were carrying out the illegal actions by attempting to take control of several ships that were outside of their waters, What part of that are you still failing to grasp?

Once again - it is NOT illegal.

They were not pirates or murderers and I see you have once again done your '..not not admitting you were not wrong..' song and dance.

The good thing about this was Israel releasing video from both sides. It did not take long before public opinion swayed a helluva lot more over to their side of things.

Meanwhile we will all pretend we think these boats are sincerely interested in just helping the poor when we know full well the whole thing is a big pretense, publicity stunt, FU to Israel and for the purpose of provoking this kind of thing for political hay.

[Shasown]

Once again - it is NOT illegal.

They were not pirates or murderers and I see you have once again done your '..not not admitting you were not wrong..' song and dance.

The good thing about this was Israel releasing video from both sides. It did not take long before public opinion swayed a helluva lot more over to their side of things.

Meanwhile we will all pretend we think these boats are sincerely interested in just helping the poor when we know full well the whole thing is a big pretense, publicity stunt, FU to Israel and for the purpose of provoking this kind of thing for political hay.

And again you dance around the question. How come then that the attack and murders have been internationally condemned. That is not only by the Turkish, the UK, the Egyptians, the US, the list goes on and on, lets not forget the UN?

Would you like to slate them all individually or just in one big group?

[ElProximo]

And again you dance around the question. How come then that the attack and murders have been internationally condemned. That is not only by the Turkish, the UK, the Egyptians, the US, the list goes on and on, lets not forget the UN?


You keep 'pwning yourself' and the more you do these desperate little word and argument games the worse it is for you.

Look - lets pretend the UN does define this yeah?
Ok.
Then by the authority of YOUR CHOOSING they are not pirates and they are not murderers.
Not according to the UN.
So since YOUR AUTHORITY of choice does not call this piracy or murder then why do you?

Now realistically, it doesn't matter if a body of Muslim nations creates some resolution 'condemning attacks'.
That doesn't make it so.

btw.. more new video out and there again pretty damning stuff for the 'peaceful protesters' who drop a stun grenade in the Israeli boat.

Just as I said at the beginning - these stories always start as 'one is as bad as the other',
but,
as more comes in you too often find out it was Muslim Jihadist trying to kill and murder and who initiate the crimes,
and,
then use ploys and rhetoric to try and get 'victim status' and vilify their victims.

[Shasown]

You keep 'pwning yourself' and the more you do these desperate little word and argument games the worse it is for you.

Look - lets pretend the UN does define this yeah?
Ok.
Then by the authority of YOUR CHOOSING they are not pirates and they are not murderers.
Not according to the UN.
So since YOUR AUTHORITY of choice does not call this piracy or murder then why do you?

Now realistically, it doesn't matter if a body of Muslim nations creates some resolution 'condemning attacks'.
That doesn't make it so.

btw.. more new video out and there again pretty damning stuff for the 'peaceful protesters' who drop a stun grenade in the Israeli boat.

Just as I said at the beginning - these stories always start as 'one is as bad as the other',
but,
as more comes in you too often find out it was Muslim Jihadist trying to kill and murder and who initiate the crimes,
and,
then use ploys and rhetoric to try and get 'victim status' and vilify their victims.

Yeah thats why Israel is releasing or by now has released ALL of the activists without charges.

• Israel's attorney general says all of the nearly 700 activists detained in a deadly raid on an aid flotilla bound for the Gaza Strip will be deported by the end of the day. Yehuda Weinstein says Israel has decided not to prosecute any of the activists.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2010/jun/02/israel-releases-gaza-flotilla-activists-live-coverage

The stun grenades were taken from commandos. Dropping them onto an Israeli gunboat would be a method to defend oneself.

As would throwing assualting commandos overboard, a boat taken off the operation to pick up their own men is one less boat attacking.

As for the UN condemning the assaults, if you scroll back through the thread you will find references to that.(If you click on the words in blue on posts it will open another window on your computer with real information on it - aint technology great)

[ElProximo]

Yeah thats why Israel is releasing or by now has released ALL of the activists without charges.

We were not debating whether or not any of the remaining activists can be arrested or held or charged with anything.

Your response should have been "Yeah.. that is why none of the Israelis are being charged with Piracy or Murder".




As for the UN condemning the assaults, if you scroll back through the thread you will find references to that.


Yes, I told you that.
The UN isn't Israel's authority and there is no real legal or practical meaning to a group of anti-israel Muslim nations creating a 'statement' condemning attacks.
Just as meaningless is other nations 'supporting' such a thing (which also can mean different things),
but,
the problem for you is that they are not charging Israel with 'Piracy' or 'Murder'.

Yes, firing bullets into the chest of the attackers is simply a way to prevent them from landing more blows with pipes.

[Shasown]

We were not debating whether or not any of the remaining activists can be arrested or held or charged with anything.

Your response should have been "Yeah.. that is why none of the Israelis are being charged with Piracy or Murder".

No the point I was making is that if the activists were big bad ass terrorists as you make out then Israel would have the odd token arrest or even a mock trial.

The UN doesnt charge other countries with anything I could give you a link to read up on the UN and its powers if you would like to learn about it.

However Turkey has called for the planners and authorisers of the mission, the commandos who opened fire to be tried for a long list of crimes, does that count?





Yes, I told you that.
The UN isn't Israel's authority and there is no real legal or practical meaning to a group of anti-israel Muslim nations creating a 'statement' condemning attacks.
Just as meaningless is other nations 'supporting' such a thing (which also can mean different things),
but,
the problem for you is that they are not charging Israel with 'Piracy' or 'Murder'.

Yes, firing bullets into the chest of the attackers is simply a way to prevent them from landing more blows with pipes.

Err once again you are wrong you didnt inform me or anyone else.

Arista was the first to mention it openly in post #49, your first post was #73 and it didnt mention it. In post #118 I referred back to the fact it had been included in a link used by the OP.

Could I ask if you are smoking or snorting something you didnt get over the counter of your local chemist? The reason I ask is your posts on this subject do not seem to be in touch with reality.

Incidentally the US UK and the UN are not Muslim led or run, not in this reality.

[ElProximo]

No the point I was making is that if the activists were big bad ass terrorists as you make out then Israel would have the odd token arrest or even a mock trial.

Mmm.. no you were saying they were pirates and terrorists and cited the UN as your validating source,
yet,
the UN hasn't called them this. Not that the UN is any authority but you think they are.

I would say that the criminals in this won't be having any trials anywhere. All 9 of them are being shipped back in boxes.


Arista was the first to mention it openly in post #49, your first post was #73 and it didnt mention it. In post #118 I referred back to the fact...

Oh shut the hell up you big woman's blouse. How annoying.


Incidentally the US UK and the UN are not Muslim led or run, not in this reality.

YOUR link explains how this 'condemnation' was written up by a body of Muslim nations.
I then explain how the other nations supporting that statement is also meaningless.
It is nothing but political shows and positioning but is not a meaningful thing in an real or practical sense of anything.

[MassiveTruck]

Sure
These Ships had MP's on them
and Health Foods needed urgent.


Next time
Turkey Warships can back them.
Then it will be a Big War.


http://news.sky.com/sky-news/content/StaticFile/jpg/2010/Jun/Week1/15641860.jpg

But even MPs have an agenda and this was a huge stunt to pull that off and it worked. MPs aren't all about the right and Israel are only defending their own kind and doing it well.

If Israel open the blockade to Gaza who is going to save them from the suicide bombers coming through and the coming and going of other activity that is a threat to the west? The blockade is there for a reason and the UN are only responding to global pressure. If Israel were completely fascist in this light they would be bombing the hell out of their neighbours from Egypt to other states but it's quite apparent that they are only looking after their own country.

Aid is always going into Gaza on a regular basis. The only people complaining are charity workers who have donators and investors to please, most of them from an Islamic persuasion, persuading another revolt against Jews as they've been told from birth that Jews are evil and so are Christians according to Islam.

Stop the Saudi families and Iran from giving Hamas military ammunition and this all ends. Remove oil from the equation and it won't last beyond a weekend.

[MassiveTruck]

You are correct,there is regular aid the size of the convoy getting through to Palestine,the problem is ,its not enough hence the reason the UN are saying there is a humanitarian crisis in Palestine.So you are wrong to say its being "pumped "in.
I really don't know what comes under the category of Weapons of mass destruction ,but seriously cement and pasta????

But the aid that the floatilla was bringing in was only equal to one weekly amount of aid that they usually get. It was really... pointless. Other than a political stunt I have no idea what the point of it was.

[MassiveTruck]

Joe Biden

http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE6516TK20100603

finally, somebody with some perspective.

[MojoNixon]

Joe Biden

http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE6516TK20100603

finally, somebody with some perspective.

LOL! I bet that leftie liberal Obama supporters are angry now :joker:

[MassiveTruck]

LOL! I bet that leftie liberal Obama supporters are angry now :joker:

LOL, probably but they are not as impulsive over there than over in Europe. They have a huge news industry in the US that gives masses of differing perspectives. We are strangled by the BBC and the money we pump into it.

[lime]

[QUOTE=MassiveTruck;3284994]

Aid is always going into Gaza on a regular basis. The only people complaining are charity workers who have donors and investors to please, most of them from an Islamic persuasion, persuading another revolt against Jews as they've been told from birth that Jews are evil and so are Christians according to Islam.

No you are wrong.
Charity workers are not the only people "complaining"

But to say that the reason charities UNICEF ,Concern etc are only complaining is because they are trying to please their donors "most of them from an Islamic persuasion is BS.

Listen ,I am not a fan of religion don't have a copy of any of the "good books"
and really don't care who anyone's sky daddy is but the blockade is WRONG as most world leaders are saying .

I think its quite clear that the point of the flotilla was to highlight the blockade.
I am sure that everyone on board did not expect a welcome party from the IDF but I do not believe they knew they would be shot.
In saying that was really annoyed to see that mother whom brought her child,only a toddler on flotilla with her

[MojoNixon]

EU is wasting our money to Gaza. Hamas is controlling money/aid flood, and still they won't do anything to that.

[setanta]

Look, I have Israeli relations, with my uncle in law having served in their equivelant of the Navy Seals, and even I can see what a botch up this is. They've been condemned even by their allies and I really don't know how they can talk themselves outta this one. It'll be interesting to speak to my aunt about it!

[Crimson Dynamo]

Look, I have Israeli relations, with my uncle in law having served in their equivelant of the Navy Seals, and even I can see what a botch up this is. They've been condemned even by their allies and I really don't know how they can talk themselves outta this one. It'll be interesting to speak to my aunt about it!

do you condone the the attacks on the Israeli soldiers as they boarded the boats?

[setanta]

do you condone the the attacks on the Israeli soldiers as they boarded the boats?

Yes, they were acting like pirates and the crew had every right to feel aggrieved and hostile.

[MojoNixon]

Look, I have Israeli relations, with my uncle in law having served in their equivelant of the Navy Seals

Somehow i doubt that.

[MassiveTruck]

No you are wrong.
Charity workers are not the only people "complaining"

But to say that the reason charities UNICEF ,Concern etc are only complaining is because they are trying to please their donors "most of them from an Islamic persuasion is BS.

Listen ,I am not a fan of religion don't have a copy of any of the "good books"
and really don't care who anyone's sky daddy is but the blockade is WRONG as most world leaders are saying .

I think its quite clear that the point of the flotilla was to highlight the blockade.
I am sure that everyone on board did not expect a welcome party from the IDF but I do not believe they knew they would be shot.
In saying that was really annoyed to see that mother whom brought her child,only a toddler on flotilla with her

Nonsense. Utter nonsense.

Unicef have nothing to do with this floatilla and neither does any of the major charities either. This was run by Islamic charities who have nothing more than an Islamic interest when most of the people in Gaza and the West Bank, Muslims get by with the aid. Unicef already, alongside the red cross, Amnesty international, The Red Cross have a relationship with Israel to bring in aid and I know this because a number of my muslim, that's muslim, friends are in the gaza strip seeing that aid gets through.


They were bringing 15000 tonnes of aid and for what? Hamas who control the area and want to blow the hell out of Israel? How can you, how can we condone that? Ridiculous.

[MassiveTruck]

Look, I have Israeli relations, with my uncle in law having served in their equivelant of the Navy Seals, and even I can see what a botch up this is. They've been condemned even by their allies and I really don't know how they can talk themselves outta this one. It'll be interesting to speak to my aunt about it!

They have been condemned for retaliating in international waters - they are not condemned for their actions to defend their state and to run checks.

The ships were clearly offered a free run into Israel so they could pass the aid on to the right sources but they (as this whole operation was run by Hamas) wanted to take it to Gaza. How utterly ridiculous.

Would you allow people to just walk into your
home, when you are having problems in your home? Would you? I really doubt it.

Also, I've already spoken to my friends in Gaza about this and they think these idiots coming in on pirate ships were an utter joke.

[setanta]

Somehow i doubt that.

You can doubt all you want. Doesn't bother me in the slightest.

[MojoNixon]

You can doubt all you want. Doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Me neither, i smell BS.

[setanta]

Me neither, i smell BS.

Again, doesn't cost me a thought.

[MojoNixon]

Again, doesn't cost me a thought.

Or Our Man Flint

[Niamh.]

Personally - sick to death of terrorists - couldn't care less what happens to any of them!

They weren't terrorists though, they were aid workers

[setanta]

Or Our Man Flint

Seriously, what are you trying to prove here? It's quite amusing to me to be honest with you. Do you want the name and phone number of my uncle so you can have a chat with him? Go about your business you eejit.

[MojoNixon]

Seriously, what are you trying to prove here? It's quite amusing to me to be honest with you. Do you want the name and phone number of my uncle so you can have a chat with him? Go about your business you eejit.

If ya pay the phone call.

[MojoNixon]

They weren't terrorists though, they were aid workers

yeah right...

[Niamh.]

yeah right...

you again................Oh Joy:rolleyes:

[setanta]

If ya pay the phone call.

Again, I'm not bothered about what you believe or don't believe. Conversation over really.

[MojoNixon]

Again, I'm not bothered about what you believe or don't believe. Conversation over really.

You clearly are, third time....

[Crimson Dynamo]

Yes, they were acting like pirates and the crew had every right to feel aggrieved and hostile.

every right to bludgeon them with iron bars and try and drown and kill them


?

get real

[lime]

Nonsense. Utter nonsense.

UNICEF have nothing to do with this floatilla and neither does any of the major charities either. This was run by Islamic charities who have nothing more than an Islamic interest when most of the people in Gaza and the West Bank, Muslims get by with the aid. Unicef already, alongside the red cross, Amnesty international, The Red Cross have a relationship with Israel to bring in aid and I know this because a number of my muslim, that's muslim, friends are in the gaza strip seeing that aid gets through.


They were bringing 15000 tonnes of aid and for what? Hamas who control the area and want to blow the hell out of Israel? How can you, how can we condone that? Ridiculous.

Where did I say UNICEF had anything to do with the flotilla???

I was commenting on your statement that the only people complaing about the Gaza crisis are charity workers.

You seem to be trying make out that the Gaza citizens are getting all the aid they need through aid that Israel allows.And you know this because your Muslim,yes that's Muslim friends in Gaza tell you so as they are seeing that the aid gets through.Next time would you please ask them if that is so how come 12000 children under 5 die there every year from preventable diseases??

Check UNICEF stats for Gaza.

I would never condone the actions of Hamas in fact I condemn it.
If the point of the blockade is to stop rockets etc reaching Hamas then the blockade is not working is it.

[MojoNixon]

Where did I say UNICEF had anything to do with the flotilla???

I was commenting on your statement that the only people complaing about the Gaza crisis are charity workers.

You seem to be trying make out that the Gaza citizens are getting all the aid they need through aid that Israel allows.And you know this because your Muslim,yes that's Muslim friends in Gaza tell you so as they are seeing that the aid gets through.Next time would you please ask them if that is so how come 12000 children under 5 die there every year from preventable diseases??

Check UNICEF stats for Gaza.

I would never condone the actions of Hamas in fact I condemn it.
If the point of the blockade is to stop rockets etc reaching Hamas then the blockade is not working is it.

:sleep::sleep::sleep:

[MassiveTruck]

Where did I say UNICEF had anything to do with the flotilla???

I was commenting on your statement that the only people complaing about the Gaza crisis are charity workers.

You seem to be trying make out that the Gaza citizens are getting all the aid they need through aid that Israel allows.And you know this because your Muslim,yes that's Muslim friends in Gaza tell you so as they are seeing that the aid gets through.Next time would you please ask them if that is so how come 12000 children under 5 die there every year from preventable diseases??

Check UNICEF stats for Gaza.

I would never condone the actions of Hamas in fact I condemn it.
If the point of the blockade is to stop rockets etc reaching Hamas then the blockade is not working is it.

This makes me laugh.

What do you want? New York City over night in Palestine? NHS hospitals? A Western education system?

It's a bloody developing state that has suffered at the hands of Islamic extremists who sell aid for weapons. People make out Palestine is some holy land desecrated by the evil semites when in fact it is a haven for crime and massed of disorganised undeveloped communities.

This has been the state ever since the late 19th century. The Jews came in and built an economy from absolutely nothing and the Arabs wanted a share of it without doing the hard work and putting in the effort, LOL - there were no Arabs to do the hard work - the jews actually gave the Arabs and economy but they have complained for a whole century, not only against the Jews but between themselves and all this because they wanted something that was not theres.

Why should Jews give part of their hard earned labour for? They worked a whole century developing something and when the Jews are ready to share it with the Arabs, they throw their toys out of their prams and want more - simply because they think they have an historic right over the land? The Jews were the first settlers there if I am not mistaken but oddly, because the Arabs are a nomadic culture they think they own any place they sit down or have ever sat down.

Ridiculous nonsense. They make their bed and then expect the west to clear up the rubbish all the while insulting is and calling us decadent and heathens. Pathetic.

[setanta]

every right to bludgeon them with iron bars and try and drown and kill them


?

get real

I doubt very much that the Israeli's didn't provoke them a little. What am I even talking about.... invading a ship in international waters is provocation enough. They f$cked this one up badly.

[MojoNixon]

I doubt very much that the Israeli's didn't provoke them a little. What am I even talking about.... invading a ship in international waters is provocation enough. They f$cked this one up badly.

Typical leftie point of few. Maybe you should move to Iran, you could be closer to em and help em.

[setanta]

Typical leftie point of few. Maybe you should move to Iran, you could be closer to em and help em.

Nothing lefty about it: I'm simply judging this event on it's own.

[MojoNixon]

Nothing lefty about it: I'm simply judging this event on it's own.

Nope. You are leftie, you just don't know it.

[setanta]

Nope. You are leftie, you just don't know it.

Oh, go away. You know nothing about me and are letting your feelings persuade you on what is, in my eyes, a very simple case of Israel botching up big time on an international level..

[MojoNixon]

Oh, go away. You know nothing about me and are letting your feelings persuade you on what is, in my eyes, a very simple case of Israel botching up big time on an international level..

:bawling:

[Shasown]

Oh shut the hell up you big woman's blouse. How annoying.


Ouch that really hurt, cut me to the quick. (The more correct term is Big Girls Blouse) ****wit.



Aid is always going into Gaza on a regular basis. The only people complaining are charity workers who have donators and investors to please, most of them from an Islamic persuasion, persuading another revolt against Jews as they've been told from birth that Jews are evil and so are Christians according to Islam.

Stop the Saudi families and Iran from giving Hamas military ammunition and this all ends. Remove oil from the equation and it won't last beyond a weekend.

Aid may be going in but it is an insufficient amount, the UN states its about 25% of what is actually needed to sustain the Palestinian people. Thats why food etc is smuggled in from Egypt in tunnels.

I do agree that backing to Hamas should be stopped but a blockade that slowly starves an entire people is wrong. If you look back and understand why Hamas was voted into power you will see Israel were the root cause.

I take it you didnt see Tony Blair on the news last night making the same claims and asking that Israel at least operate the blockade imposed on Gaza in a humanitarian way?



It's a bloody developing state that has suffered at the hands of Islamic extremists who sell aid for weapons. People make out Palestine is some holy land desecrated by the evil semites when in fact it is a haven for crime and massed of disorganised undeveloped communities.

This has been the state ever since the late 19th century. The Jews came in and built an economy from absolutely nothing and the Arabs wanted a share of it without doing the hard work and putting in the effort, LOL - there were no Arabs to do the hard work - the jews actually gave the Arabs and economy but they have complained for a whole century, not only against the Jews but between themselves and all this because they wanted something that was not theres.

Why should Jews give part of their hard earned labour for? They worked a whole century developing something and when the Jews are ready to share it with the Arabs, they throw their toys out of their prams and want more - simply because they think they have an historic right over the land? The Jews were the first settlers there if I am not mistaken but oddly, because the Arabs are a nomadic culture they think they own any place they sit down or have ever sat down.

Ridiculous nonsense. They make their bed and then expect the west to clear up the rubbish all the while insulting is and calling us decadent and heathens. Pathetic.

Palestine was a mandated area under the League of Nations since just after the first world war. The jewish people supported by US President Wison decided to ignore the mandate and stated moving into the area having tried and failed to take over areas of Africa to form a homeland. Israel wasnt formed until 1948.

Not all Arabs follow a nomadic way of life there was towns Villages and cities there before the Jewish people decided to take over it.

By being the first to settle the area do you mean the tribes of Israel under Moses etc? If so re read your bible, they fought battles against peoples back then to clear the area first.


Typical leftie point of few. Maybe you should move to Iran, you could be closer to em and help em.

What a ****ing ignorant statement Mojo, I expected better from you, why would a leftie want to go to Iran, the regime is a little right wing over there, in fact so right wing it makes Attilla the ****ing hun look like Karl Marx.

[MassiveTruck]

Aid may be going in but it is an insufficient amount, the UN states its about 25% of what is actually needed to sustain the Palestinian people. Thats why food etc is smuggled in from Egypt in tunnels.

I do agree that backing to Hamas should be stopped but a blockade that slowly starves an entire people is wrong. If you look back and understand why Hamas was voted into power you will see Israel were the root cause.

I take it you didnt see Tony Blair on the news last night making the same claims and asking that Israel at least operate the blockade imposed on Gaza in a humanitarian way?



Palestine was a mandated area under the League of Nations since just after the first world war. The jewish people supported by US President Wison decided to ignore the mandate and stated moving into the area having tried and failed to take over areas of Africa to form a homeland. Israel wasnt formed until 1948.

Not all Arabs follow a nomadic way of life there was towns Villages and cities there before the Jewish people decided to take over it.

By being the first to settle the area do you mean the tribes of Israel under Moses etc? If so re read your bible, they fought battles against peoples back then to clear the area first.




OK, question your logic for a moment.

If only 25% is going in (I've heard, not enough... but 25% (and then you have to question HOW MUCH aid and who pays for it)) then, considering, we know 10 thousand to 20 thousand tonnes if pumped in regularly for 1.5 million people, on a weekly basis and this is not enough... how could a convoy of ships, yes?, with 15,000 tonnes of aid only have been enough?

That's just the first part of how ridiculously stupid this stunt was but also how it had nothing to do with aid.

Now... about aid... as I said in the previous post - should Gaza hold us to ransom for their development? If they, as a state, cannot elect or allow Israel to fund them and create a thriving economy (which is what the Arabs wanted a part of and couldn't achieve over millenia, more on this late) then they die. That's just about as simple as it is.

On the one hand, Gaza thinks the US and the UK and the west and China and India are all corrupt and nasty and decadent and liberal nutcases but they want millions and millions of pounds of our aid. Oh it's fine to take our freebies but Eff off with your principles... now how does that work?

We cannot build Gaza. Charities cannot build Gaza. They have a lifeline from Israel which they don't accept because, Oh my God, they're Jews - evil Jews... and we want our country back (which was never theirs).

Now quickly about who owns Israel. Well... nobody does. But who ruined Israel - well that one is easy... the Muslims did. Post Mohammed, actually pre-Mohammed being kicked out of a town in Arabia the large proportion of that part of the world was nomadic. You went where the food was and where your cattle grazed. The Bible says one thing but they were all nomadic. Up until the 19th century that was the case until it was important to create a state in Palestine and who built that, who formulated it, who created an amazing economy - the Jews... while the Arabs just twiddle their thumbs wanting everything the Jews had built. Have the Arabs done that in any of their other states? God no... they just don't know how to do anything other than fighting against other muslims. That's all they've been about since the beginning of time. They went into Israel, converted everybody into Islam with a sword and fear and then moved on until they were pushed back from southern Spain because they knew nothing of trade and development and were kicked out when they ran out of money. This has been the state of muslims and will continue to be when they run out of oil in the middle east and continue terrorist activity which is the only commodity they appear to know when they haven't got ownership of natural resources.

While the rest of the world is thriving.

There was no need therefore for this convoy to go there. Biden has said, like he always says, come to us and the UK says, come to us, we'll negotiate delivery of aid... what's wrong with that? It was a miniscule amount of aid compared to what is delivered in there... but you tell me in terms of aid.

Is enough aid being sent to India?

How about Pakistan? Afghanistan? China? Africa? South America??

Who gets enough aid? OK... how about the UK... do we, in our sink estates, in our inner cities, get enough aid? Who gets enough aid in the world today?

How about people who need drugs for their disease or people without healthcare...

Which poverty stricken individual in the world today gets aid?

You see the problem with the logic when trying to give charity?

Gaza is getting aid but if anybody thinks we're going to create Bath Spa over night there is living on cloud cuckoo land!

A lot countries need aid. It's not a perfect world but the Muslims and their "charities" shouldn't be forcing people to give aid in one part of of the world, one miniscule area of the world when the west are trying to pump money all over the world.

Gaza needs to realise they have no higher sense of entitlement over others.

[Shasown]

OK, question your logic for a moment.

If only 25% is going in (I've heard, not enough... but 25% (and then you have to question HOW MUCH aid and who pays for it)) then, considering, we know 10 thousand to 20 thousand tonnes if pumped in regularly for 1.5 million people, on a weekly basis and this is not enough... how could a convoy of ships, yes?, with 15,000 tonnes of aid only have been enough?

That's just the first part of how ridiculously stupid this stunt was but also how it had nothing to do with aid.

Now... about aid... as I said in the previous post - should Gaza hold us to ransom for their development? If they, as a state, cannot elect or allow Israel to fund them and create a thriving economy (which is what the Arabs wanted a part of and couldn't achieve over millenia, more on this late) then they die. That's just about as simple as it is.

On the one hand, Gaza thinks the US and the UK and the west and China and India are all corrupt and nasty and decadent and liberal nutcases but they want millions and millions of pounds of our aid. Oh it's fine to take our freebies but Eff off with your principles... now how does that work?

We cannot build Gaza. Charities cannot build Gaza. They have a lifeline from Israel which they don't accept because, Oh my God, they're Jews - evil Jews... and we want our country back (which was never theirs).

Now quickly about who owns Israel. Well... nobody does. But who ruined Israel - well that one is easy... the Muslims did. Post Mohammed, actually pre-Mohammed being kicked out of a town in Arabia the large proportion of that part of the world was nomadic. You went where the food was and where your cattle grazed. The Bible says one thing but they were all nomadic. Up until the 19th century that was the case until it was important to create a state in Palestine and who built that, who formulated it, who created an amazing economy - the Jews... while the Arabs just twiddle their thumbs wanting everything the Jews had built. Have the Arabs done that in any of their other states? God no... they just don't know how to do anything other than fighting against other muslims. That's all they've been about since the beginning of time. They went into Israel, converted everybody into Islam with a sword and fear and then moved on until they were pushed back from southern Spain because they knew nothing of trade and development and were kicked out when they ran out of money. This has been the state of muslims and will continue to be when they run out of oil in the middle east and continue terrorist activity which is the only commodity they appear to know when they haven't got ownership of natural resources.

While the rest of the world is thriving.

There was no need therefore for this convoy to go there. Biden has said, like he always says, come to us and the UK says, come to us, we'll negotiate delivery of aid... what's wrong with that? It was a miniscule amount of aid compared to what is delivered in there... but you tell me in terms of aid.

Is enough aid being sent to India?

How about Pakistan? Afghanistan? China? Africa? South America??

Who gets enough aid? OK... how about the UK... do we, in our sink estates, in our inner cities, get enough aid? Who gets enough aid in the world today?

How about people who need drugs for their disease or people without healthcare...

Which poverty stricken individual in the world today gets aid?

You see the problem with the logic when trying to give charity?

Gaza is getting aid but if anybody thinks we're going to create Bath Spa over night there is living on cloud cuckoo land!

A lot countries need aid. It's not a perfect world but the Muslims and their "charities" shouldn't be forcing people to give aid in one part of of the world, one miniscule area of the world when the west are trying to pump money all over the world.

Gaza needs to realise they have no higher sense of entitlement over others.

I dont think you quite understand, just like in the former Republic of Yugoslavia the UN and other relief organisations can only take in what aid has been agreed with the sovereign state. In this case Israel doesnt allow most of the aid the UN wants to take in, so it piles up.

The people of Gaza need the aid in order to survive if Israel lifted the blockade, which is total, the industry and agriculture could be resumed and the Palestinians could trade with neighbours, like they initially started when Israel allowed them the strip.

However thats not Israels intent, since the Interim Agreement of the West Bank and Gaza (the Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement, Oslo 2) the Israelis have allowed their own settlers to move in and displace the Palestinians from the area ceded to them.

They dont want the Palestinians there and have attempted to push them out of the areas, the Palestinians have pushed back. To go in with the army and force them to move would create more trouble and loss of lives than the current slow starvation.

If Israel actually lifted the blockade and allowed all aid in except what the UN deem to be unacceptable,(which would include all weapons ammunition or components of and production of) that would go a long way to gaining back a lot of respect in the worlds eye. However the other side of that sword is it would look to both the Israeli people and the Palestinians that Hamas had forced them to back down.

There will be another attempt to break the blockade some time in the very near future, like the next couple of days and it will probably fail lets hope not as spectacularly as the last attempt.

[MassiveTruck]

I dont think you quite understand, just like in the former Republic of Yugoslavia the UN and other relief organisations can only take in what aid has been agreed with the sovereign state. In this case Israel doesnt allow most of the aid the UN wants to take in, so it piles up.

The people of Gaza need the aid in order to survive if Israel lifted the blockade, which is total, the industry and agriculture could be resumed and the Palestinians could trade with neighbours, like they initially started when Israel allowed them the strip.

However thats not Israels intent, since the Interim Agreement of the West Bank and Gaza (the Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement, Oslo 2) the Israelis have allowed their own settlers to move in and displace the Palestinians from the area ceded to them.

They dont want the Palestinians there and have attempted to push them out of the areas, the Palestinians have pushed back. To go in with the army and force them to move would create more trouble and loss of lives than the current slow starvation.

If Israel actually lifted the blockade and allowed all aid in except what the UN deem to be unacceptable,(which would include all weapons ammunition or components of and production of) that would go a long way to gaining back a lot of respect in the worlds eye. However the other side of that sword is it would look to both the Israeli people and the Palestinians that Hamas had forced them to back down.

There will be another attempt to break the blockade some time in the very near future, like the next couple of days and it will probably fail lets hope not as spectacularly as the last attempt.

Why do you feel there is something to understand? Gaza allow this upon themselves due to their hatred and attacks on Israel. India and many other countries get aid but you cannot build economies, you cannot give jobs, you cannot provide a life to people who don't want it. That is the long and short of it.

You feel that Israel has to be blamed for this. Israel is giving them a solution - they're just being spoilt and throwing hissy fits into death. They want death. I don't think the world realise, they'd rather die than allow Israel to offer them a democracy and life.

I am telling you over and over again, you cannot give people unlimited aid. You're thinking that we could cure all their ills. I'm sorry but I tried to explain the flaw in your logic but you're too blinkered in a garden of eden type mentality about Gaza when they are creating this trouble for themselves. There are only 1.5 million people in Gaza and they do this to themselves because the long and short of it is...

they hate jews.

Jews offer them economy but their hatred is far greater than that.

Accept the fact that aid doesn't build countries and you will very quickly realise that aid isn't the answer.

I really do laugh when people call them palestinians. That's a political term they gave to themselves. They are, in my eyes, nomads who lay claim to a land given to them by the governing Israeli body - if they can't accept a good thing then they should just die in my view. They're too littered in Religious dogma that they'd rather praise Allah and die than give their own children a life.

Their loss.

Also, understand, the world isn't built upon historical ownership. If you believe that, you're on the same playing field as white supremacists and the BNP. It's reverse right wing mentality cloaked in left wing delusion.

[ElProximo]

Aid may be going in but it is an insufficient amount, the UN states its about 25% of what is actually needed to sustain the Palestinian people. Thats why food etc is smuggled in from Egypt in tunnels.

I do agree that backing to Hamas should be stopped but a blockade that slowly starves an entire people is wrong. If you look back and understand why Hamas was voted into power you will see Israel were the root cause.

And this is the part where we start saying 'get real' and this just means being realistic.
Not trying to contrive statistics or make these annoying 'school debate tactic' types of arguments.

Just as bad is this pretentious, careful, orchestrated international political posturing where everyone must side-step and brace their language into prepared careful language.

Realistically we all know what is going on here. IF we simply want to get food, medicine and shelter to the non-militant working people in Palestine it could happen tomorrow if not for the militant 'hamas' and others who are most deliberately using the suffering and need to work a way to also smuggle terrorists and weapons into and onto Israel.
We know this.
Lets not all walk around pretending we don't know the obvious big picture and game here.

This is what really annoys me more than anything is where the whole world has to pretend this AID ship is a legitimate thing only to help the poor people in Palestine.
Of course its not. We know its obviously a 'ploy' that is ultimately aiming to kill Israelis.
This 'flotilla' is exactly for that purpose and so far its 'almost' working and while it did not quite get them to lift that 'embargo' it went a long way and did get a lot of sympathy at first.

Not all Arabs follow a nomadic way of life there was towns Villages and cities there before the Jewish people decided to take over it.

By being the first to settle the area do you mean the tribes of Israel under Moses etc? If so re read your bible, they fought battles against peoples back then to clear the area first.


Here again is another annoying thing we all have to play 'pretend games' and its this fake idea of Palestine and this idea of 'Palestinians'.

A quick study about fairly recent history and you can see that todays so-called 'Palestine' was not a nation, country, people, race or any such thing.
Even the name was describing a 'region'.
The Hebrides is not a country. There is not a nation of people called the 'Hebridians'.
Here we have the 'Cascadia region'. Its describing a mountain range. Its not a country. There is not a race or tribe called 'The Cascadians'.

But do you know who was called 'Palestinians'?
Jews!
Actually the region had nomadic Bedouins and it had a handful of other peoples here and there. I have no doubt some were arab muslims too,
and,
the odd Jews who were actually left over from centuries ago and were still wandering the former-Israel.
They used to be called 'Palestinians'.

But never mind that. The reality for us today is that nearly nobody calling themselves 'Palestinian' is from there.
They are Jordanians and from other Arab Muslim nations and moved there AS Jews did.
They were 'immigrant workers' who moved there to build Israel.

Again its just annoying we all have to sit around pretending like 'Palestinians' are a people and were 'there first'.
Nonsense.

Now it does happen that a generation or two later there are people who have no been born and raised in what we started calling 'Palestinian regions',
and,
in the same way there is now a new generation of Israelis who were born and raised in Israel.

But lets get off this nonsense of some 'Palestine nation' full of 'Palestinians' who were then 'taken over' by Jews.
No.
That does not mean they get discounted either but I will not go around pretending that Israel is 'occupying' some imaginary country.

[Shasown]

Yes the name Palestine is and was used to describe an area of the Middle East, I suppose you could also rant about the use or over use of the word American there being no country called America. Or you could push it and rant about the use of the word Europe.

Except of course There was a large area called The British Mandate of Palestine, which was broken in to two subdivides called Transjordan and Palestine.

If the area was totally nomadic could you look at the following map and explain why there are lots of little orange dots, which the key to the map explains are Palestinian towns and villages (note the use of the terms villages and towns not nomadic settlements):

http://palestinethinktank.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/map_palestine_1920.jpg

The B Mof P was the name of the area that is now ocupied by Israel a little of present day Egypt, Syria and Jordan.

[bansheewails]

You know what, I think the middle east situation is abit like Northern Ireland. There is no answer except forgive and forget, and lets face it thats a really hard thing to do if your family has been directly effected. One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist.

The point of history is to learn from our mistakes, sadly as we are human we just go on with the mistakes.

Talk with all sides is the only answer and look how long it took all the main parties in the north to get in the same room, never mind talk.

[MassiveTruck]

Yes the name Palestine is and was used to describe an area of the Middle East, I suppose you could also rant about the use or over use of the word American there being no country called America. Or you could push it and rant about the use of the word Europe.

Except of course There was a large area called The British Mandate of Palestine, which was broken in to two subdivides called Transjordan and Palestine.

If the area was totally nomadic could you look at the following map and explain why there are lots of little orange dots, which the key to the map explains are Palestinian towns and villages (note the use of the terms villages and towns not nomadic settlements):

http://palestinethinktank.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/map_palestine_1920.jpg


The B Mof P was the name of the area that is now ocupied by Israel a little of present day Egypt, Syria and Jordan.


oooh Ooooh Oooh... they don't say nomadic settlements so that must be the case... because it's a WEBSITE. Bow down to the WEBSITE and the INTERNETS Gods.

Jesus Christ man... this is ridiculous.

OOOh... I know... I will post a pro-islamic image from a pro-socialist website in order to make my point clear.

What can you not get through your head about the way the world works? What?

Let me make it completely clear here.

Towns and villages do not make a country. Is that clear?

Economies, ownership, building and development, jobs, national borders, trade relations

Basically everything that makes an economy makes an economy. I have well provided you with a clear explanation that these arabs did ******* all over centuries over millenia other than fight each other after their command, destroy, convert and conquer failed because they were just radical extremists plundering across the middle east and they moved around, over and over again like nomads as different nations took over their lands. They weren't in one place for a long time and there was no national border.

What part of the fact where I have told you that no national border, no governing group - because all those little dots are not a state, they are not country - they are muslims killing muslims.

Muslims, killing muslims. Understand that.

When an Arab was sent to the UK to speak for arabs, the vast majority of Arabs didn't want him to speak for them. They would have had muslims killing muslims again like they have had for over a millenium.

If all you have is oooh, they had this mandate, ooh, they went to the US, ooh, they went to the UK, oooh and then that happened - then you will never in your life understand why Israel was created and why muslims are just going to kill each other until the end of time.

I have tried in vain to explain this to you but if you're going to dilly dally around thinking that these so called "Palestines" have ownership over that area because ooh, out of the blue, they were settled there then you are wrong. They were not Palestinians but seperate, diverse, aggressively hostile groups who were fighting against each other and it was this stability that caused the area to be such a troublesome part of the world to deal with during World War 1.

If you've understood the life of T.E. Lawrence then you'll realise muslims will never ever be happy with each other because they have an infinite number of doctrines preached, not from state to state but from village to village to town to town. These grand economists and political scientists know this and what's funny, the funding dynasties of the middle east from the Saudi Oil families to the government of Iran know this and exploit the middle east and the differnce is, the biggest difference is - you have been taught by the internet while people who control the world and know all this have been taught in the best Universities in the world.

You can go back to these ridiculous left wing socialist re-enactments of history but the truth is Israel is the best thing to happen in the middle east because if it hadn't then you'd still have people in the middle east ****ting in the deserts.

[MassiveTruck]

You know what, I think the middle east situation is abit like Northern Ireland. There is no answer except forgive and forget, and lets face it thats a really hard thing to do if your family has been directly effected. One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist.

The point of history is to learn from our mistakes, sadly as we are human we just go on with the mistakes.

Talk with all sides is the only answer and look how long it took all the main parties in the north to get in the same room, never mind talk.

The answer is democracy and the acceptance of liberal capitalist society but you won't find muslims accepting that because they've got Saudi funded Wahabbi preachers telling them not to.

[MassiveTruck]

And this is the part where we start saying 'get real' and this just means being realistic.
Not trying to contrive statistics or make these annoying 'school debate tactic' types of arguments.

Just as bad is this pretentious, careful, orchestrated international political posturing where everyone must side-step and brace their language into prepared careful language.

Realistically we all know what is going on here. IF we simply want to get food, medicine and shelter to the non-militant working people in Palestine it could happen tomorrow if not for the militant 'hamas' and others who are most deliberately using the suffering and need to work a way to also smuggle terrorists and weapons into and onto Israel.
We know this.
Lets not all walk around pretending we don't know the obvious big picture and game here.

This is what really annoys me more than anything is where the whole world has to pretend this AID ship is a legitimate thing only to help the poor people in Palestine.
Of course its not. We know its obviously a 'ploy' that is ultimately aiming to kill Israelis.
This 'flotilla' is exactly for that purpose and so far its 'almost' working and while it did not quite get them to lift that 'embargo' it went a long way and did get a lot of sympathy at first.



Here again is another annoying thing we all have to play 'pretend games' and its this fake idea of Palestine and this idea of 'Palestinians'.

A quick study about fairly recent history and you can see that todays so-called 'Palestine' was not a nation, country, people, race or any such thing.
Even the name was describing a 'region'.
The Hebrides is not a country. There is not a nation of people called the 'Hebridians'.
Here we have the 'Cascadia region'. Its describing a mountain range. Its not a country. There is not a race or tribe called 'The Cascadians'.

But do you know who was called 'Palestinians'?
Jews!
Actually the region had nomadic Bedouins and it had a handful of other peoples here and there. I have no doubt some were arab muslims too,
and,
the odd Jews who were actually left over from centuries ago and were still wandering the former-Israel.
They used to be called 'Palestinians'.

But never mind that. The reality for us today is that nearly nobody calling themselves 'Palestinian' is from there.
They are Jordanians and from other Arab Muslim nations and moved there AS Jews did.
They were 'immigrant workers' who moved there to build Israel.

Again its just annoying we all have to sit around pretending like 'Palestinians' are a people and were 'there first'.
Nonsense.

Now it does happen that a generation or two later there are people who have no been born and raised in what we started calling 'Palestinian regions',
and,
in the same way there is now a new generation of Israelis who were born and raised in Israel.

But lets get off this nonsense of some 'Palestine nation' full of 'Palestinians' who were then 'taken over' by Jews.
No.
That does not mean they get discounted either but I will not go around pretending that Israel is 'occupying' some imaginary country.

Thank You.

[bansheewails]

The answer is democracy and the acceptance of liberal capitalist society but you won't find muslims accepting that because they've got Saudi funded Wahabbi preachers telling them not to.

Not much different from Catholic Priests helping the IRA or the Orange Order shouting No Surrender! Religion and war go hand in hand, its a difficult one to solve.

Did you miss me Massive? Its great to be back!

[MassiveTruck]

Not much different from Catholic Priests helping the IRA or the Orange Order shouting No Surrender! Religion and war go hand in hand, its a difficult one to solve.

Did you miss me Massive? Its great to be back!

I have been away too so I'm back for Big Brother.

War breeds trade. We all need someone to blame.

[ElProximo]

Yes the name Palestine is and was used to describe an area of the Middle East, I suppose you could also rant about the use or over use of the word American there being no country called America. Or you could push it and rant about the use of the word Europe.

Yes I will. That is a good enough example you just gave.

The Americas.
It would be something like French Canadians insisting they are the 'true Americans' and 'American People' and then demanding the USA stop occupying their land.
(I think they might have a BETTER argument than Palestinians!).

And again we get back to who is 'Palestinian'?
Well Jews lived there too and were called 'Palestinians'.
Since almost ALL the people in Gaza and West bank are from families OUTSIDE that map then they are actually outsiders and foreign people taking over the 'true Palestinians' land right?

here again we get back to the 'reality check' on this. Nearly every single Jew is a recent arrival.
Nearly every single muslim or 'palestinian' is a recent arrival.
If not themselves then their family back a few generations.

Except of course There was a large area called The British Mandate of Palestine, which was broken in to two subdivides called Transjordan and Palestine.


So Jordanians ought to be outraged or should Brits be outraged?

Again, this was a region and the people on there today calling themselves 'Palestinians' are not from there (meaning not from those cities and lands and from that time).


If the area was totally nomadic could you look at the following map and explain why there are lots of little orange dots, which the key to the map explains are Palestinian towns and villages (note the use of the terms villages and towns not nomadic settlements):

I think Truck explains this just perfectly but I'd once again remind you that the people we see today calling themselves 'Palestinians' are rarely anyone actually from those places,
and,
while you can find a few families here and there you can ALSO FIND JEWS who were called 'Palestinians' who were from that time and place,
but,
Nothing you see today is realistically anything to do with those handful of people who were from that time and region.

Yes, Israelis will also sometimes find a native jewish family who have been in Palestine for many centuries,
and,
the Jordanians and Arab Muslims will find a guy who's family has actually been in the 'Palestine region',
but,
by far and wide and for any realistic and meaningful understanding the vast majority are ALL immigrant families.
Israelis from Russia, Europe, USA, Africa.. basically Jew from everywhere,
and,
The ones now calling themselves 'Palestinians' from Jordan and (long list) of Arab Muslim (and other) countries who often came as Immigrant Workers helping build Israel.

That is the 'real story' today and I certainly do not hold that against 'Palestinians' either.
That is fine.
I don't think less of them for moving there to get jobs. Good for them,
but,
Im getting sick and tired of having to pretend they are like 'Natives' whos land is being 'Occupied',
and,
pretending we don't know this whole thing is being used by the mostly arab muslim world to eliminate Jews from the region.

[keithafc]

Not much different from Catholic Priests helping the IRA or the Orange Order shouting No Surrender! Religion and war go hand in hand, its a difficult one to solve.

Did you miss me Massive? Its great to be back!
No Surrender has nothing to do with the OO as that is a religious set up for protestants to join if they want. Basically a culture but don't think for a second No Surrender has anything to do with religion or the OO please.

[Crimson Dynamo]

one lesson from this debacle will be

If you are going to hit a commando with an iron bar then expect to be shot dead

I think we can all learn something there

[Shasown]

one lesson from this debacle will be

If you are going to hit a commando with an iron bar then expect to be shot dead

I think we can all learn something there

Nah I think the lesson is interfere with Israel's ethnic cleansing program at your peril.

[ElProximo]

Nah I think the lesson is interfere with Israel's ethnic cleansing program at your peril.

I think we are all, ultimately agreeing on this last idea.

'Samson Complex' comes to mind too.

[Sticks]

What about the ethic cleansing desires of Hamas?

[MojoNixon]

What about the ethic cleansing desires of Hamas?


Exactly! Liberal leftys still desires this. They are calling Jews as a nazis, yet they wanna wipe em off the earth. Muslims (Iran, Syria and Palestine are good examples). Peace and love, peace and love....

[MojoNixon]

You know what, I think the middle east situation is abit like Northern Ireland. There is no answer except forgive and forget, and lets face it thats a really hard thing to do if your family has been directly effected. One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist.

The point of history is to learn from our mistakes, sadly as we are human we just go on with the mistakes.

Talk with all sides is the only answer and look how long it took all the main parties in the north to get in the same room, never mind talk.

Extremely well said. sorry about double posting, but this is a important point of view. Sad thing is that "liberals" from US and EU are forgetting that religions is behind all of this (especially muslims).

[ElProximo]

Extremely well said. sorry about double posting, but this is a important point of view. Sad thing is that "liberals" from US and EU are forgetting that religions is behind all of this (especially muslims).

Of course it is an Islam thing. A Koran thing. It is a lot of people who believe what the Koran is telling them and therefore need to get Jews off the land they understand ought to be 'under the house of Islam'.

In a sense (if not successfully so far) Bush and Blair had a kind of Christian religious agenda [read explanation] and it goes something like this:
- IF you could see Iraq and Afghanistan burst into truly democratic type of societies with 'freedom of speech' and concepts allowing Christian missionaries, Christian conversions,
and,
IF this were to sort of 'snowball' across and through Arab Muslim nations,
then,
You 'could' see situations where the Arab world is no longer voting in or tolerating Islamic governments but 'secular' governments who do not feel obligated to carry out Mohammads orders on Jews.

I don't know.
The prediction I fear comes true is something like this:

The Arab Muslim world will see so many Muslims converting or abandoning Islam and see the coming 'secular revolutions' and there will be one helluva 'animal in a corner' reaction from the hardcore Jihadi types.
They will go too far.
With Russia, with China and with Israel and for that matter even Europe and the USA.
Russia will move down absolutely annihilating them right out of Chechnya and beyond. I mean the actual people will be forced out.
Then China will just stomp every Muslim straight out in the same old-school expulsion or die way.
Then Israel will do it.
Retreating Muslims exploding themselves and carrying out the most horrific ghoulish sickening murders, suicide bombings, child killings etc will all but force the hand of Russia, China, Israel,
and,
that is when it will get REALLY nasty because its something like the Russians and Americans 'racing to take their share of Germany'.
Russian an China will 'race for the stans' and Israel is going to realize they are damn well getting as much as they can too and start taking out parts of Egypt and Jordan etc.

This is bad news for Muslims because it will end up just annihilating the Arab Muslim world back to the stone age (as they say) and there will be no more need to keep them happy or play along like we do now.

Well lets hope that doesn't happen.

[MojoNixon]

Of course it is an Islam thing. A Koran thing. It is a lot of people who believe what the Koran is telling them and therefore need to get Jews off the land they understand ought to be 'under the house of Islam'.

In a sense (if not successfully so far) Bush and Blair had a kind of Christian religious agenda [read explanation] and it goes something like this:
- IF you could see Iraq and Afghanistan burst into truly democratic type of societies with 'freedom of speech' and concepts allowing Christian missionaries, Christian conversions,
and,
IF this were to sort of 'snowball' across and through Arab Muslim nations,
then,
You 'could' see situations where the Arab world is no longer voting in or tolerating Islamic governments but 'secular' governments who do not feel obligated to carry out Mohammads orders on Jews.

I don't know.
The prediction I fear comes true is something like this:

The Arab Muslim world will see so many Muslims converting or abandoning Islam and see the coming 'secular revolutions' and there will be one helluva 'animal in a corner' reaction from the hardcore Jihadi types.
They will go too far.
With Russia, with China and with Israel and for that matter even Europe and the USA.
Russia will move down absolutely annihilating them right out of Chechnya and beyond. I mean the actual people will be forced out.
Then China will just stomp every Muslim straight out in the same old-school expulsion or die way.
Then Israel will do it.
Retreating Muslims exploding themselves and carrying out the most horrific ghoulish sickening murders, suicide bombings, child killings etc will all but force the hand of Russia, China, Israel,
and,
that is when it will get REALLY nasty because its something like the Russians and Americans 'racing to take their share of Germany'.
Russian an China will 'race for the stans' and Israel is going to realize they are damn well getting as much as they can too and start taking out parts of Egypt and Jordan etc.

This is bad news for Muslims because it will end up just annihilating the Arab Muslim world back to the stone age (as they say) and there will be no more need to keep them happy or play along like we do now.

Well lets hope that doesn't happen.

Russians don't like jews, and China dislike em too (old commie thing). Only thing that they hate em is that US supports em. ****ed up world.

[ElProximo]

Russians don't like jews, and China dislike em too (old commie thing). Only thing that they hate em is that US supports em. ****ed up world.

Oh I agree. It won't be because they are supporting Israel and in my 'apocalypse scenario' I actually figure it would inevitably be (more) bad news for Israel.

Russia is interesting because their original Communist Revolution certainly was top-heavy with Jews. Not everyone but to a point where you can nearly call it a 'Jewish movement' and I'm not just talking Lenin, Trotsky and good old Marx but a long list of the most influential and powerful.
People forget that the 'Purges' did not just come out of nowhere for no reason - it was definitely because Jews were highly disproportional in the top of the system.
(not saying purges were a good idea either.. but just points it out).

China really is fascinating in all this. If you are watching television in Communist China you may catch a Mao 'propaganda' series. Mao is portrayed as this great heroic man and usually saving a baby and all that,
but,
how creepy (if you ask me) is scenes where they will have Mao teaching and preaching and behind him on a wall are portraits of Jews.
(Marx, Lenin, Trotsky as we mentioned before),
and,
Let me tell you something else - not long ago most Chinese wouldn't know who or what a Jew is to do with anything.
Not now.
They absolutely DO know there is a kind of white people called 'Jews' and let me tell you something else:
- Chinese are STILL resentful about the Opium wars. The problem is they used to think that was what the English did to them,
but,
they are now figuring out the 'dealers' in all this were wealthy Jewish families.

Now I'm not trying to tell anyone this is all perfectly accurate and/or should be how people think about things,
but,
I am agreeing with you that this IS what plenty of Russians and Chinese will see and think about when considering whether they want to trust Israel.

On the other hand Russian and Israel will tolerate each other if it means annihilating Muslim Chechnya,
and,
China and Israel will tolerate each other if it means permanently 'solving' the Uyghur 'east turkestan' problem.


What always amazed me is that the Arab Muslims (and i mean the hardcore practicing Muslim ones) do not understand that they can be stomped back to the stone age.
Even after they continually get stomped in small bites and are just losing and getting defeated today,
yet,
they are working overtime to 'ask for it'?

Now I did get an answer to that - its because they do believe Islam will conquer the whole world and in fact sparking a massive and final 'battle of Civilization' will only speed up that promise.

Now 'Christian Zionism' could be a whole another topic unto itself. I'm working on it.

[MojoNixon]

What "liberal" Europeans don't understand is that Muslims are trying to hide their "muslim inquisition" agenda behind the "freedom of speech" (that is not allowed in muslim world).

[arista]

What about the ethic cleansing desires of Hamas?


That is not possible.
You can not Destroy a nation with Nukes.


Hamas are in Power.

[ElProximo]

What "liberal" Europeans don't understand is that Muslims are trying to hide their "muslim inquisition" agenda behind the "freedom of speech" (that is not allowed in muslim world).

It really is one of the ultimate cruel twist ironies and its like the whole thing has 'backfired' on the liberal leftist agenda people.
It would almost become hilarious if it wasn't so genuinely dangerous.

The thing is - the Muslim absolutely KNOW what they have here and I well imagine they must just laugh amongst themselves how easily they have this sowed up.
One told me its even more than that - he sees its a sure sign that Allah is with them.
What else can explain the ease and how it is working for them? Obviously the Euros deserve it.
He actually believes its because Allah has confused their minds and given Muslims special ability.

Yeah, I have no idea when that sort of 'progressive liberal' type of European (or Brits or Canucks or Yanks etc) will ever wake up and get smart. It seems 'until its too late' is becoming the answer.

[MojoNixon]

That is not possible.
You can not Destroy a nation with Nukes.


Hamas are in Power.

arista, you clearly not know what you are talking about. why don't you go out and hunt taxi drivers instead.

[Shasown]

Yeah, I have no idea when that sort of 'progressive liberal' type of European (or Brits or Canucks or Yanks etc) will ever wake up and get smart. It seems 'until its too late' is becoming the answer.


Nah am sure we can all sleep safe in our beds knowing you and Mojo are keeping an ever watchful eye on our enemies and their conspiracies to take over the world.

Have you and Mojo got the survival bunker sorted for yourselves in the woods?

[letmein]

Ouch that really hurt, cut me to the quick. (The more correct term is Big Girls Blouse) ****wit.



Aid may be going in but it is an insufficient amount, the UN states its about 25% of what is actually needed to sustain the Palestinian people. Thats why food etc is smuggled in from Egypt in tunnels.

I do agree that backing to Hamas should be stopped but a blockade that slowly starves an entire people is wrong. If you look back and understand why Hamas was voted into power you will see Israel were the root cause.

I take it you didnt see Tony Blair on the news last night making the same claims and asking that Israel at least operate the blockade imposed on Gaza in a humanitarian way?



Palestine was a mandated area under the League of Nations since just after the first world war. The jewish people supported by US President Wison decided to ignore the mandate and stated moving into the area having tried and failed to take over areas of Africa to form a homeland. Israel wasnt formed until 1948.

Not all Arabs follow a nomadic way of life there was towns Villages and cities there before the Jewish people decided to take over it.

By being the first to settle the area do you mean the tribes of Israel under Moses etc? If so re read your bible, they fought battles against peoples back then to clear the area first.




What a ****ing ignorant statement Mojo, I expected better from you, why would a leftie want to go to Iran, the regime is a little right wing over there, in fact so right wing it makes Attilla the ****ing hun look like Karl Marx.

Finally, someone with a brain!

[letmein]

Yes the name Palestine is and was used to describe an area of the Middle East, I suppose you could also rant about the use or over use of the word American there being no country called America. Or you could push it and rant about the use of the word Europe.

Except of course There was a large area called The British Mandate of Palestine, which was broken in to two subdivides called Transjordan and Palestine.

If the area was totally nomadic could you look at the following map and explain why there are lots of little orange dots, which the key to the map explains are Palestinian towns and villages (note the use of the terms villages and towns not nomadic settlements):

http://palestinethinktank.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/map_palestine_1920.jpg

The B Mof P was the name of the area that is now ocupied by Israel a little of present day Egypt, Syria and Jordan.

The pro-Israel people on this web site are so far out of their league, it's laughable. No wonder Britain is full of uneducated chav trash.

[Claymores]

The pro-Israel people on this web site are so far out of their league, it's laughable. No wonder Britain is full of uneducated chav trash.

Shas is hilarious - instead of allowing himself to get wound-up he just points out the deficiencies in their arguments. I've tried winding Tel in the past with daft comments and he just does it to me too :hugesmile:

[Shasown]

Who knows maybe this time it just wont be glossed over.



http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20100605/tuk-protest-over-israel-military-action-6323e80.html

Thousands of people joined a national demonstration in London against the Israeli military boarding Gaza-bound aid vessels.

Activists began to march from Downing Street to the Israeli Embassy to mark their "outrage" against the deaths of nine pro-Palestinian activists who were killed when Israeli forces stopped a Turkish aid vessel trying to break a maritime blockade.

Demonstrators also expressed their anger that the Israeli navy has boarded one of the last ships on the flotilla carrying humanitarian aid to Gaza.

The Irish/Malaysian-owned vessel, MV Rachel Corrie, was seized by forces, preventing it from breaking the blockade of the Hamas-ruled territory.

Among the protesters was Sarah Colborne, 43, of the Palestine Solidarity Campaign, who was aboard the Turkish Mavi Marmara Gaza aid ship where the activists died. She spent almost two days in Israeli custody before coming back to Britain.

Ms Colborne, from London, said the activists on the boat were on a purely on a relief mission.

"It does not surprise me that they have boarded another boat," said Ms Colborne

"Israel cannot be allowed to continue to commit these crimes without being brought to justice. It cannot board boats in international waters which have nothing but humanitarian aid and peace activists, to murder nine people and to hold us hostage, to kidnap us effectively. What we need to happen is for humanitarian aid to freely go into Gaza, for the borders to be opened and the siege to be lifted, for an independent investigation to take place into the events of the last few days and for Israel to end its violation of international laws."

Green MP Caroline Lucas, who joined the demonstration, also called for an inquiry into the actions of the Israeli military on the Mavi Marmara.

"We are here to demand an independent inquiry into the murder and piracy that happened in the high seas" she said. "The siege of Gaza is illegal, the collective punishment of innocent people is illegal. I believe the actions we saw on the flotillas were also illegal and we need an investigation into that. Israel is literally getting away with murder and the international community pulls back from the action. I think this demonstration is a clear message to William Hague to say that we want to see action now."

[MojoNixon]

Nah am sure we can all sleep safe in our beds knowing you and Mojo are keeping an ever watchful eye on our enemies and their conspiracies to take over the world.

Have you and Mojo got the survival bunker sorted for yourselves in the woods?

Have a fun with your Islamised Europe:xyxwave:

[Claymores]

Have a fun with your Islamised Europe:xyxwave:

The people's republic of Scotland, "Islamised" from this new word you've just invented

[ElProximo]

Nah am sure we can all sleep safe in our beds knowing you and Mojo are keeping an ever watchful eye on our enemies and their conspiracies to take over the world.


The funny thing is that you mean that to be sarcastic yet its more true than you know.

Nothing conspiracy about this either - I can show you famous English neighbourhood that now belongs to Islam. They just love useful idiots like you. not that you are welcome there.
Unless you submit to Islam?

[Shasown]

The funny thing is that you mean that to be sarcastic yet its more true than you know.

Nothing conspiracy about this either - I can show you famous English neighbourhood that now belongs to Islam. They just love useful idiots like you. not that you are welcome there.
Unless you submit to Islam?

So do you do the day shift and mojo the night or vice versa? Must be awfully hard doing a straight 12 hour shift or do you split it down to 3-4 hour stags?


How stands England this eve, watchman?

Thats two, by the way.

[ElProximo]

So do you do the day shift and mojo the night or vice versa? Must be awfully hard doing a straight 12 hour shift or do you split it down to 3-4 hour stags?


I can tell you this much. Visited a once famous English neighbourhood to see this centuries good old 'heart of england' sort of district that is even famous around the world.
Its what many think about when they think of England and English people.
Its gone.
What Hitler could not do (and damn well tried) was easily carried out by a large group of Arab Muslims.
I wasn't actually welcomed there and was a little nervous as a crowd of tough looking Arabs 'scowled me' as I walked by in a way saying 'keep moving little infidel'.
I was sure I saw where address plates had been chipped off. Another house had replaced theirs with an Arabic sign.
Women wearing Hijabs to cover their faces in the neighbourhood. That is Englands neighbourhoods - where women must cover their face.

This already happened.
Don't bother looking stupid and guffawing about this 'fantasy' because it is that way now.
I dare you to go draw a picture of Mohammad in that neighbourhood tomorrow.

[MojoNixon]

Finally, someone with a brain!

Like this?


http://www.seraphicpress.com/images/April12_SuicideBombing.jpg

[Shasown]

Like this?


http://www.seraphicpress.com/images/April12_SuicideBombing.jpg





Medea Benjamin speaks below of her trip to Gaza…

As a Jew, an American and a mother, I felt compelled to witness, firsthand, what my people and my taxdollars had done during this invasion. Visiting Gaza filled me with unbearable sadness. Unlike the primitive weapons of Hamas, the Israelis had so many sophisticated ways to murder, maim and destroy-unmanned drones, F-16s dropping “smart bombs” that miss, Apache helicopters launching missiles, tanks firing from the ground, ships shelling Gaza from the sea. So many horrific weapons stamped with Made in the USA. While Hamas’ attacks on Israeli villages are deplorable, Israel’s disproportionate response is unconscionable, with 1,330 Palestinians dead vs. 13 Israelis.

If the invasion was designed to destroy Hamas, it failed miserably. Not only is Hamas still in control, but it retains much popular support. If the invasion was designed as a form of collective punishment, it succeeded, leaving behind a trail of grieving mothers, angry fathers and traumatized children.

To get a sense of the devastation, check out a slide show circulating on the internet called Gaza: Massacre of Children. It should be required viewing for all who supported this invasion of Gaza. Babies charred like shish-kebabs. Limbs chopped off. Features melted from white phosphorus. Faces crying out in pain, gripped by fear, overcome by grief.

http://www.notmytribe.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/gaza-buried-child-casualty.jpg


http://notmytribe.com/2009/gaza-child-photo-86584.html


Atrocities are committed by BOTH sides.

The slide show mentioned in the above quote is at: http://www.aztlan.net/gaza/gaza_massacre_of_children.php

[Shasown]

In Turkey, an official autopsy report into the earlier raid said a preliminary examination had found the nine men were shot a total of 30 times, and five of them were killed by gunshots to the head and their backs. One of the activists was shot to death from close range, it said.
The report will be sent to the prosecutor's office in Istanbul in the next two months as evidence to be used against Israel in a possible court case, the state-run Anatolia news agency said

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1284200/Israel-shadows-new-aid-ship-bound-Gaza-ignores-change-course.html#ixzz0q4q7Ne6z



Interesting little point there about the autopsy results.

[MojoNixon]

Interesting little point there about the autopsy results.

I don't believe that turkish propaganda at all.

[Shasown]

I don't believe that turkish propaganda at all.

Yeah lets just ignore that little inconvenience, counterproductive as it is to your arguments.

[MojoNixon]

Yeah lets just ignore that little inconvenience, counterproductive as it is to your arguments.

It is turkish propaganda, so it won't count.

[Shasown]

It is turkish propaganda, so it won't count.

Will it be American propaganda if when the american body is repatriated, a US coroner produced similar findings on it?

[MojoNixon]

Will it be American propaganda if when the american body is repatriated, a US coroner produced similar findings on it?

Nah. Turks wanna kill all jews, that's all.

[Shasown]

Nah. Turks wanna kill all jews, that's all.

Yes thats so true Turkey has always hated Israel, always demanding its destruction.



Less than three years ago Shimon Peres addressed the Turkish Grand National Assembly - Turkey's parliament - in Ankara.

It was the first time an Israeli president had addressed legislators in a Muslim country, a gesture which spoke volumes about the extraordinary relationship between Israel and Turkey, a relationship dating back to the early Turkish recognition of the Jewish state in 1949.
Uniquely among Muslim countries in the region, Turkey has strong trading ties with Israel.

The Turkish military buys weapons from Israel and trains with its armed forces, and in 2008 Turkey played host to more than half a million Israeli tourists, making it their favourite overseas holiday destination.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/8714983.stm



Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan sharply criticized Israel for its reaction to the Mavi Marmara raid Thursday saying that "Israel stands to lose its closest ally in the Middle East if it does not change its mentality."

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?ID=177401





Secular Turkey is Israel’s main military ally in the Muslim world, and has long enjoyed military co-operation with the Jewish state. Israeli bombers are believed to have passed through Turkish airspace when they attacked a suspected nuclear facility under construction in Syria in 2007.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6870231.ece



Or then again maybe not!

[MojoNixon]

Yes thats so true Turkey has always hated Israel, always demanding its destruction.







Or then again maybe not!

Israel is defending only Jewish state in this world.

[Shasown]

Israel is defending only Jewish state in this world.

I am not denying that, just questioning some of the methods it employs in that defence

[MojoNixon]

I am not denying that, just questioning some of the methods it employs in that defence

Oh yeah? Like bombing busses full of children, elder peoples and so on?

[Shasown]

Oh yeah? Like bombing busses full of children, elder peoples and so on?

As I have stated on numerous occasions in this and other threads I do not condone the Palestinian atrocities any more than I do the Israelis.

Israel have committed their fair share with indiscriminate air and artillery strikes. Incidentally Mossad have used bombs on buses as retaliatory and also pre emptive actions.

Two wrongs wont make a right.

Israel having the stronger side should make an effort to bring peace to the area not further confrontation. However in their eyes they feel it would be showing weakness.