Mosque at ground zero?

[InOne]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/may/27/the-911-mosque/


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjS0Novt3X4


What is this madness :/ Surely can't go ahead.

[Shasown]

One of the sickest Ideas I have ever heard.

[InOne]

He's not Muslim himself, but his dad was. Apparently most politicians were for it. It really can't or won't happen though. It is ridiculous. But I can't believe the idea has even made the news or being made know to the public :/

[Shasown]

I am absolutely taken aback by that - I have not heard anything about it! It is shameful beyond belief! How could any American believe that it is acceptable? I assume Obama has had some say in this - he is Muslim isn't he - not a good sign for the future!

No he isnt, he is a Christian. Wikipedia says of him: His father was raised a Muslim, but became a confirmed atheist. Obama was baptized at the Trinity United Church of Christ in 1988 and was an active member there for two decades.

Obama resigned from Trinity during the Presidential campaign after controversial statements made by Rev. Jeremiah Wright became public.Obama announced in June 2009 that his primary place of worship would be the Evergreen Chapel at Camp David

[setanta]

Is this some kind of sick joke? They can't be serious with this one.

[Novo]

Pat Condell should be our PM

[InOne]

Pat Condell should be our PM

He is a legend. That is how I found out about this.

[setanta]

Seriously, why isn't this fella on the box? Too straightforward about things? Is the too dangerous for general consumption?

[InOne]

Seriously, why isn't this fella on the box? Too straightforward about things? Is the too dangerous for general consumption?

Think he is too blunt. He is saying what the goverment does not want to hear. Saying what the middle class deem as 'racist' saying what the working class say without being shouted down as racist. Britain could not handle him.

[setanta]

Think he is too blunt. He is saying what the goverment does not want to hear. Saying what the middle class deem as 'racist' saying what the working class say without being shouted down as racist. Britain could not handle him.

Yeah, he's far too blunt about things but he speaks alot of sense, albeit in a too forceful and direct manner.

[InOne]

Yeah, he's far too blunt about things but he speaks alot of sense, albeit in a too forceful and direct manner.

Yet he could easily debate any of his points. If people pussy foot around Islam you have to be forceful about your speech.

[setanta]

Yet he could easily debate any of his points. If people pussy foot around Islam you have to be forceful about your speech.

I don't find him the most likeable of chaps though, think that's my main issue with him. His points are valid but he just doesn't float my boat and personality goes along way lol.

[Iceman]

No problem with it at all.

[InOne]

I don't find him the most likeable of chaps though, think that's my main issue with him. His points are valid but he just doesn't float my boat and personality goes along way lol.

I like his sarcastic wit really. Goes well with the joke the UK has become. I've watched all of his vids, he makes very good points.

[InOne]

No problem with it at all.

Why?

[Boothy]

It's ******ing offensive! I can't believe for one minute any American will be OK with this. I don't see the point, as InOne put nicely, in pussy-footing around with serious matters like this. You might aswell come out a say what most of the population is saying anyway, there's no point in trying to play it down in order to satisfy everyone.

Fair enough putting a mosque in NYC. I can see arguments for that. But suggesting it be put at Ground Zero, where hundereds of people died from an Islamic attack, is disrespectful to the families and anyone else effected by 9/11. I'd be gobsmacked if this went ahead.

[setanta]

I like his sarcastic wit really. Goes well with the joke the UK has become. I've watched all of his vids, he makes very good points.

I think he uses it far too much really when you think about the topics he's trying to highlight. That's my main reservation about him.

[keithafc]

Stupid idea. At the end of the day, the Qu'ran was the reason the WTC attacks happened.

[InOne]

Stupid idea. At the end of the day, the Qu'ran was the reason the WTC attacks happened.

But no brother, Islam is about peace. You just don't get Islam, Muhammed was not a militant he was a peace loving prophet :rolleyes:

[Jayson]

I'm astonished that the US government would let this happen. It's completely inappropriate.

[Lucy.]

Talk about rubbing salt in a wound :nono:

[Shasown]

Should be fun watching to see how many attempts there are to blow it up by home grown militants if it does ever get built.

Mind you it would probably make the Department for Homeland Security's job a little easier.

[Novo]

No problem with it at all.

Drunk

We'll let him off

[InOne]

Drunk

We'll let him off

Hope so :/ Don't really see any logic to what he's saying.

[30stone]

So messed up in so many ways, dont think it will go ahead cause to much outrage..

[Crimson Dynamo]

whilst the people who did 9/11 were murderers and had nothing to do with Islam (they may have mistakenly thought they did, they were wrong)

this would be a silly idea and would be like planning to open a gun club in Whitehaven.

ie guns are not the problem, madmen are - but lets not open a gunclub anytime soon..

[BB_Eye]

Horrible idea and an insult to the dead victims that appears to have been put forward by a bunch of nepotistic muslim property developers and the ominously named American Society for Muslim Advancement from the sounds of that article.

[Tom4784]

It's quite an inflammatory idea and probably not the best proposition for the sake of safety of it's practitioners.

[Tom4784]

Board member Rob Townley said: "The mosque is a seed of peace. We believe that this is significant step in the Muslim community to counteract the hate and fanaticism in the minority of the community."

Manhattan Borough president Scott Stringer said supporting the centre "sent a clear message that our city is one that promotes diversity and tolerance".

"At the same time, we have to balance diversity and look for opportunities to bring different groups together."

These people are obsessed with appeasing Muslims and preaching diversity (PC all the way) - at the expense of the dead, their families and the Western world as a whole! They are not fit to be allowed to make such decisions!

I can see their point but I can see this being met with violent opposition if it goes through. Maybe have it near but not on Ground Zero since it'll only result in potential casualties.

[Angus]

The day that Christians are allowed to build a church at Mecca is the day I would accept that Islam truly embraces diversity and tolerance.

[InOne]

The day that Christians are allowed to build a church at Mecca is the day I would accept that Islam truly embraces diversity and tolerance.

None Muslims aren't even allowed in Medina are they?

[Angus]

None Muslims aren't even allowed in Medina are they?

My point exactly.

[InOne]

This was kinda annoying. Hate overkeen converts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqShJ1Z__Bg

[Barbie]

it wasn't the religion that destroyed the twin towers, it was extremists, but i still dont see how plonking a mosque on ground zero will help anything. Just upset people, it should stay as a memory, or have a tribute building made that isnt anything to do with anything, just dedicated to the twin towers

[InOne]

it wasn't the religion that destroyed the twin towers, it was extremists, but i still dont see how plonking a mosque on ground zero will help anything. Just upset people, it should stay as a memory, or have a tribute building made that isnt anything to do with anything, just dedicated to the twin towers

Yes but the religion itself isn't particularly great either is it?

[Barbie]

Yes but the religion itself isn't particularly great either is it?

Well to be fair i've never heard of a christian terrorist so i suppose not,

[Angus]

Well to be fair i've never heard of a christian terrorist so i suppose not,

There's the IRA - Catholic Christians. Another extremist group hiding behind religion to excuse the atrocities they committed. Difference being they didn't go round blowing up muslims.

[InOne]

Well to be fair i've never heard of a christian terrorist so i suppose not,

I'm not talking about terrorists though. Islam is far from peace.

[Barbie]

I just think religion is bad a whole and just causes trouble. I don't know much about extremist's i thought the IRA were about britains taking over part of Ireland.

[Tom4784]

Well to be fair i've never heard of a christian terrorist so i suppose not,

But then again look to the past. Witch hunts, The crusades etc. It's not right to blame everyone who follows a religion but Religion tends to bring out the worst in people.

[InOne]

I'd like to think 'Opium of the masses' does not apply anymore. But I think it still does :(

[Angus]

I just think religion is bad a whole and just causes trouble. I don't know much about extremist's i thought the IRA were about britains taking over part of Ireland.

The IRA is/was a predominantly political organisation that sought independence from Britain, the roots of resentment being historically inextricably bound up with the Catholic faith. The IRA often exploited the religious affiliations of the Irish people to draw them into the republican ideology, and thus enveigle them to commit atrocities in the name of the Cause. The IRA were never fussy about their targets; politicians, civilians, children, old folk - it was all the same to them. Much like the so called "islamic" terrorists we have these days. Religion is a very convenient and acceptable umbrella to lurk under when extremists want to legitimise their evil actions.

[30stone]

The day that Christians are allowed to build a church at Mecca is the day I would accept that Islam truly embraces diversity and tolerance.
Lol.

and that will never happen.

[BB_Eye]

it wasn't the religion that destroyed the twin towers, it was extremists, but i still dont see how plonking a mosque on ground zero will help anything. Just upset people, it should stay as a memory, or have a tribute building made that isnt anything to do with anything, just dedicated to the twin towers

Quite right. It is ridiculously insensitive... bordering on malicious, but then what do you expect from the apparent decision-makers in this?

[cupid stunt]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/may/27/the-911-mosque/


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjS0Novt3X4


What is this madness :/ Surely can't go ahead.

and people LAFF when i say muslims want to take over, they want to kill and torture every single white and black man, they want blood running through the streets, they will drink our blood and laugh at us for not stopping them
WHEN WILL THIS MADNESS END? WHEN WILL WE TAKE OUR COUNTRYS BACK FROM THESE NUTCASES?

[BOOSH]

Wtf

[Vicky.]

This is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard.

Will it ever end?

[InOne]

Still being talked about, not looking good :/

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/08/03/panel-vote-clear-way-ground-zero-mosque/

[Vicky.]

The day that Christians are allowed to build a church at Mecca is the day I would accept that Islam truly embraces diversity and tolerance.

:thumbs:

[BB_Eye]

For anyone interested, the mosque will be located in the circled area.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/World_Trade_Center_Site_9-23-01_with_Cordoba_House_location.jpg/600px-World_Trade_Center_Site_9-23-01_with_Cordoba_House_location.jpg

Its description as a Ground Zero Mosque is something of a half-truth/distortion, but I still think the idea is hugely insensitive and an insult to 9/11 victims.

The fact that Mayor Bloomberg is supporting the project beggars belief. New Yorkers should vote his ass out if they had any sense.

[Tom4784]

For the safety of it's practitioners I'd probably build it a little farther away but at least it's not actually on Ground Zero. You can't punish a whole religion for the actions of a few.

[arista]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/may/27/the-911-mosque/


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjS0Novt3X4


What is this madness :/ Surely can't go ahead.



But by putting that there
will it not stop anymore Saudi Killers attacking that area?

[InOne]

It's still actually pretty close to be fair. And yes it was the actions of a few, but it is still the same religion. God knows why they even let any sort of idea to continue.

[InOne]

But by putting that there
will it not stop anymore Saudi Killers attacking that area?

No, I highly doubt that.

[arista]

No, I highly doubt that.


While Barrack is in Power
America should be more safe.

He is now getting out of Iraq , from next year.

[lily.]

In my view this was planned to provoke a reaction.

If it were truly a peaceful proposition, they wouldn't even consider it being within a 10 mile radius of the WTC.

I'm not sure who came up with the idea of building a mosque in that locatoin, but it's clear to me that controversy was the main agenda.

[arista]

Still being talked about, not looking good :/

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/08/03/panel-vote-clear-way-ground-zero-mosque/



I watch Fox News (Ch509 on Sky)
from Time to time
just to Laugh at how Extreme they are.


CBSNews in HD
is better 12:30PM on SkyNewsHD.

[Tom4784]

It's still actually pretty close to be fair. And yes it was the actions of a few, but it is still the same religion. God knows why they even let any sort of idea to continue.

That doesn't make sense. So you're saying that if a religious individual commits a crime then the whole religion hes involved with should be struck with the same brush? What about Catholicism? Would you say all practising Catholics are peadophiles or should feel the guilt of another's actions just because they share a religion? Of course not it's ridiculous.

Punish the individuals and not the many innocent members of a particular faith just because you don't like it.

[InOne]

That doesn't make sense. So you're saying that if a religious individual commits a crime then the whole religion hes involved with should be struck with the same brush? What about Catholicism? Would you say all practising Catholics are peadophiles or should feel the guilt of another's actions just because they share a religion? Of course not it's ridiculous.

Punish the individuals and not the many innocent members of a particular faith just because you don't like it.

The religion itself is not great. Catholic Priests are Paedophiles because they're paedophiles, yes they abuse power but they don't really do it in the name of god.

All I'm saying is that Islam is a bad religion anyway, not commenting on the people.

[arista]

The religion itself is not great. Catholic Priests are Paedophiles because they're paedophiles, yes they abuse power but they don't really do it in the name of god.

All I'm saying is that Islam is a bad religion anyway, not commenting on the people.


Yes there are Bad parts of Islam.

But this plot NYC will not be a problem from Islamics.

[Tom4784]

The religion itself is not great. Catholic Priests are Paedophiles because they're paedophiles, yes they abuse power but they don't really do it in the name of god.

All I'm saying is that Islam is a bad religion anyway, not commenting on the people.

All religion is bad at a fundemental level but like with every other religion you'll have your extremists and more common moderate followers and Islam's no different. Most christians probablly only take away parts of the bible and live by them, very few practice the entirety of it and it's the same with Islam and any other religion except moderate muslims aren't highlighted as much for one particular reason...

The only reason you have the image of Islam being pretty much an extremist religion is because that's how the media wants you to see it. They sell more papers when there's a big bad threat for people to worry about and for the moment they've made Islam their target. Give it a few years and another religion will be seen as the new evil religion that's hellbent on converting the world.

[InOne]

Yes there are Bad parts of Islam.

But this plot NYC will not be a problem from Islamics.

Any plot isn't a problem for Islamists lol

[InOne]

All religion is bad at a fundemental level but like with every other religion you'll have your extremists and more common moderate followers and Islam's no different. Most christians probablly only take away parts of the bible and live by them, very few practice the entirety of it and it's the same with Islam and any other religion except moderate muslims aren't highlighted as much for one particular reason...

The only reason you have the image of Islam being pretty much an extremist religion is because that's how the media wants you to see it. They sell more papers when there's a big bad threat for people to worry about and for the moment they've made Islam their target. Give it a few years and another religion will be seen as the new evil religion that's hellbent on converting the world.

You always use this argument. We're not talking about any other religions.

Read this book and come back to me. You yourself are probably not even that informed on Islam.


http://www.prometheusbooks.com/images/WhyImnotaMuslim.jpg

[LaLaLand]

I think that's terrible how it's even being positively considered. Fine, build as many Mosque's in NYC as you like but of ALL places, not on Ground Zero! The family and friends of the victims must feel so disrespected.

It's just innappropriate in the extreme imo.

[billy123]

This bloke is under no illusion here his name is david wood a new york citizen who has many muslim friends in new york all people that would get that label 'moderate muslims' yet he was disturbed at the rate his muslim friends started to distribute pictures amongst themselves depicting the complete islamification of new york so soon after 9/11.
Pictures such as a new york skyline dominated by mosques and the statue of liberty wearing a full vale.
zIeI7Due2qc
Muslims are only allowed to be friendly to non-muslims in areas where they are outnumbered the quran says if they need to they can smile at you outwardly but curse you in their hearts.
Two faced and dangerous.

They even wanted to call the mosque cordoba house which is a direct reference to a spanish city that muslims invaded in the 8th century and demolished their churchs and replaced them with mosques.

[InOne]

That is a very good video bobnot. Good to see an Americans point of view.

[Tom4784]

You always use this argument. We're not talking about any other religions.

Read this book and come back to me. You yourself are probably not even that informed on Islam.


http://www.prometheusbooks.com/images/WhyImnotaMuslim.jpg

I get a vary balanced and not biased at all vibe from that book :laugh: Also I'm using other religions to make comparisions in order to highlight points, try to argue against those points instead of copping out.

At the end of the day, not all muslims follow every word of the Qu'ran, like with the bible, people will take some of it but not all of it. The points you've made against Islam apply to all religions so it's a bit contradictory to single out Islam when all faiths are guilty of such crimes.

[InOne]

I get a vary balanced and not biased at all vibe from that book :laugh: Also I'm using other religions to make comparisions in order to highlight points, try to argue against those points instead of copping out.

At the end of the day, not all muslims follow every word of the Qu'ran, like with the bible, people will take some of it but not all of it. The points you've made against Islam apply to all religions so it's a bit contradictory to single out Islam when all faiths are guilty of such crimes.

Well it was written by a Muslim and it is well known to be very balanced. It tells the facts which people seem to dodge. And the difference between Islam and other religions is Sharia, the way it's within the religion.

[setanta]

If it is constructed - and I'm still shaking my head as to why the whole enterprise is being condoned at all - I can honestly see some nutter or just an enraged American citizen blowing the thing up. Well, it wouldn't surprise me anyway.

[billy123]

If it is constructed - and I'm still shaking my head as to why the whole enterprise is being condoned at all - I can honestly see some nutter or just an enraged American citizen blowing the thing up. Well, it wouldn't surprise me anyway.
It wont go ahead it was doomed the second the saudi backers suggested they wanted it named after a historic muslim takeover of another country.
If it was to go ahead it would be destroyed within a year of its opening that is for sure at least i hope so otherwise we are all screwed.

[InOne]

It's going ahead :/

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Ground-Zero-Mosque-Muslim-Culture-Centre-Set-To-Be-Built-After-New-York-City-Ruling/Article/201008115676245?lpos=World_News_News_Your_Way_Regi on_0&lid=NewsYourWay_ARTICLE_15676245_Ground_Zero_Mosqu e:_Muslim_Culture_Centre_Set_To_Be_Built_After_New _York_City_Ruling

[Tom4784]

I can't see it being open for long, It's gonna come under constant attack. Let's just hope no one gets hurt because of this although I think it's inevitable.

[InOne]

Yep, I mean, how do they expect people to react? Why would people be happy about this?

[rick-roll]

Some people keep saying it's being built on ground zero. It's not. It's being built NEAR ground zero, 2 or 3 blocks away. It won't even be visible from ground zero. It's a privately owned property and they have the rights to build so any action to stop construction will basically just be like pissing on the constitution.

Why is it so inappropriate anyway? The attack on 9/11 was by extremists. What did they have in common? They were male, they were muslim and most were Saudi. Maybe if a bunch of male Saudi extremist muslims decided to build ON ground zero, it would be cause for concern but it's a muslim community center (with a mosque inside) being built by American muslims who have nothing to do with the attacks.


Anyone whining over this is a bigot and a moron.

[Wildcat!]

I am muslim, and this is my take on it!
the bottom line is, there is no need for that!!!
Even if only ONE person who was affected by 911, objects to it being build in the vicinity, I think it shouldnt be built there.
ALlah doesnt care where you pray, as long as its clean. And if buiding a mosque at a certain location would cause some people pain, it should not be done. This is why a lot of religious leaders, fail iIslam. They fail to remember that above all, its a religion of peace,. And in this case, peace would mean, to go bulid the mosque somewhere else, without causing any controversy!
I know they have the right to build it in the area, and its actuall anti constitutional, if they are denied the opportunity. But constitution, shouldnt come into play here. Common sense, and keeping the peace should!

[InOne]

Some people keep saying it's being built on ground zero. It's not. It's being built NEAR ground zero, 2 or 3 blocks away. It won't even be visible from ground zero. It's a privately owned property and they have the rights to build so any action to stop construction will basically just be like pissing on the constitution.

Why is it so inappropriate anyway? The attack on 9/11 was by extremists. What did they have in common? They were male, they were muslim and most were Saudi. Maybe if a bunch of male Saudi extremist muslims decided to build ON ground zero, it would be cause for concern but it's a muslim community center (with a mosque inside) being built by American muslims who have nothing to do with the attacks.


Anyone whining over this is a bigot and a moron.

It is a massive mosque and it 2 or 3 blocks away still isn't far away is it? The point is it's not needed there, in such a sensitive area. Although the people who did it were extremists, they were still Muslims. It doesn't matter if the people had nothing to do with the attacks, it's about principle. No matter what happens it would still be a horrible reminder of what happened in their faces everyday. Because let's face it, the building is not going to be subtle.

[ange7]

It is a massive mosque and it 2 or 3 blocks away still isn't far away is it? The point is it's not needed there, in such a sensitive area. Although the people who did it were extremists, they were still Muslims. It doesn't matter if the people had nothing to do with the attacks, it's about principle. No matter what happens it would still be a horrible reminder of what happened in their faces everyday. Because let's face it, the building is not going to be subtle.

who are you to say "it's not needed there". Muslims in NY are rate payers too and can expect to freely pray where ever they are....as all do. This thread is worthless. As though Muslims are responsible for 9/11 or that a mosque is somehow "insensitive" to those who lost their lives....ridiculous. This is you trying ever so desperately to link the wider Muslim population directly to fundamentalist. You'd like to lump them all together for your own nasty reasons. Fail mate. Keep posting "Muslim ths" and "Muslim that"....lol on TIBB

[InOne]

who are you to say "it's not needed there". Muslims in NY are rate payers too and can expect to freely pray where ever they are....as all do. This thread is worthless. As though Muslims are responsible for 9/11 or that a mosque is somehow "insensitive" to those who lost their lives....ridiculous. This is you trying ever so desperately to link the wider Muslim population directly to fundamentalist. You'd like to lump them all together for your own nasty reasons. Fail mate. Keep posting "Muslim ths" and "Muslim that"....lol on TIBB

I didn't say 'Muslims' were resonsible. But unfortunately the people who did it called themselves Muslims. So there will always be those connotations with the Mosque so close. We can't all be as PC as you, mate.

[ange7]

I didn't say 'Muslims' were resonsible. But unfortunately the people who did it called themselves Muslims. So there will always be those connotations with the Mosque so close. We can't all be as PC as you, mate.
"I didn't say 'Muslims' were resonsible"
yes you did. It's EXACTLY what you said.
You want to blame moderate Muslims for what some crazy fundamentalist do. Muslims aren't responsible for 9/11 just as the world wide catholic population weren't responsible for the IRA bombing. SO your often repeated line "But unfortunately the people who did it called themselves Muslims" ... is worthless and clearly you don't find it "unfortunate" at all. Opposite is more to the point wouldn't you say?

lol at the useless stock standard reply "booo wooo PC GONE MAD!!"... lol.

[InOne]

"I didn't say 'Muslims' were resonsible"
yes you did. It's EXACTLY what you said.
You want to blame moderate Muslims for what some crazy fundamentalist do. Muslims aren't responsible for 9/11 just as the world wide catholic population weren't responsible for the IRA bombing. SO your often repeated line "But unfortunately the people who did it called themselves Muslims" ... is worthless and clearly you don't find it "unfortunate" at all. Opposite is more to the point wouldn't you say?

lol at the useless stock standard reply "booo wooo PC GONE MAD!!"... lol.

I said the people were Muslims or thought they were. The fact is the people who did it genuinely believed what they were doing was right, they were brainwashed, or whatever you'd like to call, so in their mind they were muslims. Not that moderate muslims were resonsible. You assume and puts words into people mouths basically, you're not even arguing against anything...

[ange7]

I said the people were Muslims or thought they were. The fact is the people who did it genuinely believed what they were doing was right, they were brainwashed, or whatever you'd like to call, so in their mind they were muslims. Not that moderate muslims were resonsible. You assume and puts words into people mouths basically, you're not even arguing against anything...
open your eyes please.
I'm clearly arguing that moderate Muslims in NY shouldn't be denied the freedom to have the same access to places of worship the all do. Your arguing that putting a Mosque near ground zero is "insensitive". Do I need to spell out both mine and YOUR arguments for you?

[InOne]

open your eyes please.
I'm clearly arguing that moderate Muslims in NY shouldn't be denied the freedom to have the same access to places of worship the all do. Your arguing that putting a Mosque near ground zero is "insensitive". Do I need to spell out both mine and YOUR arguments for you?

Well I have made my points but you keep deflecting. As I said, even though they were extremist Muslims, putting a mosque so close will still get people annoyed and upset. And New York is massive, why do they need it there? Obviously they can have it wherever they want, but why would they want to have it somewhere where it will upset people and probably cause trouble for themselves, it doesn't make much sense to me.

[ange7]

"Well I have made my points but you keep deflecting"
rubbish ... deflecting what? zzzzzz .... I do believe I'm hitting for 6 here. hehe
"putting a mosque so close will still get people annoyed and upset"
no it doesn't ... the majority understand that a Mosque is a place of worship ... who are you to talk for them?
"but why would they want to have it somewhere where it will upset people"
They don't. They live there and as rate payers would like a place to pray locally. You seem to think Muslims choose this spot to rub people's nose in it....as though these Muslims and the fundamentalist bombers are all the one thing. Again...that's you mate.

[ange7]

bring some new points please ... those one's aren't working for ya.

[InOne]

"Well I have made my points but you keep deflecting"
rubbish ... deflecting what? zzzzzz .... I do believe I'm hitting for 6 here. hehe
"putting a mosque so close will still get people annoyed and upset"
no it doesn't ... the majority understand that a Mosque is a place of worship ... who are you to talk for them?
"but why would they want to have it somewhere where it will upset people"
They don't. They live there and as rate payers would like a place to pray locally. You seem to think Muslims choose this spot to rub people's nose in it....as though these Muslims and the fundamentalist bombers are all the one thing. Again...that's you mate.

Who are you to talk for them either? You seem to think you're voice of the people or something lol

And how do you know what I think? You seem to have an agenda with me that you're clearly never gonna let go.

[ange7]

Who are you to talk for them either? You seem to think you're voice of the people or something lol

And how do you know what I think? You seem to have an agenda with me that you're clearly never gonna let go.

nothing post with ZERO new point ....zzzzzzzz
what "point" of yours am I "defecting".

"Who are you to talk for them either?"
Easy question.
I'm saying New Yorkers are OK with it because THEIR elected officials have given it the tumbs up. Heard of democracy? No?
That's a pretty strong point. They choose to OK it.
YOU think you can speak for New Yorkers because .... ******* knows why.

[InOne]

nothing post with ZERO new point ....zzzzzzzz
what "point" of yours am I "defecting".

"Who are you to talk for them either?"
Easy question.
I'm saying New Yorkers are OK with it because THEIR elected officials have given it the tumbs up. Heard of democracy? No?
That's a pretty strong point. They choose to OK it.
YOU think you can speak for New Yorkers because .... ******* knows why.

Why is there protests if people are ok with it?

[ange7]

Why is there protests if people are ok with it?
ok ... so look up democracy mate. "protesters" aren't the majority. It isn't mob rule, that could be a shock to you. I didn't say ALL new yorkers liked the Mosque. We know the majority do given their elected representatives gave it the green light. That's a fact. That's why I can safely talk about what the majority of new yorkers want and you are left swinging in the wind. Your idea that the majority find the Mosque insensitive came from thin air. Only those that directly link all mosques with the word "fundamentalists" are thinking like that and are in the minority.

[ange7]

"You seem to have an agenda with me that you're clearly never gonna let go. "
... just saw this ..... who are you mate? You all kind of blur into one. lol ... this sounds like "deflecting". My argument is on the table ... argue yours and don't try to make this about anything else please. Especially "it's all about me!!"

[InOne]

ok ... so look up democracy mate. "protesters" aren't the majority. It isn't mob rule, that could be a shock to you. I didn't say ALL new yorkers liked the Mosque. We know the majority do given their elected representatives gave it the green light. That's a fact. That's why I can safely talk about what the majority of new yorkers want and you are left swinging in the wind. Your idea that the majority find the Mosque insensitive came from thin air. Only those that directly link all mosques with the word "fundamentalists" are thinking like that and are in the minority.

Do you have polls or anything that back this up?

[ange7]

Do you have polls or anything that back this up?
could ask you the same but won't hehe.
I know that they (some elected reps) ok'ed it. You'll never prove that you speak for the majority of New Yorkers if you ignore the choices their elected reps make.
I'll google it...
http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-world/mosque-near-ground-zero-clears-one-last-big-hurdle-20100804-11a8p.html
"Applause erupted when the commission recorded its 9-0 vote"
"Supporters say the project would build a bridge between the West and the Muslim world"

Mayor Michael Bloomberg said religious liberty, a key US value, was at stake.

"This is the freest city in the world. That's what makes New York special and different and strong. Our doors are open to everyone -- everyone with a dream and a willingness to work hard and play by the rules," Bloomberg said.

[ange7]

sorry mate ...your in the minority and the majority of New Yorkers for whom you think you speak, disagree with your intolerant views.

[InOne]

could ask you the same but won't hehe.
I know that they (some elected reps) ok'ed it. You'll never prove that you speak for the majority of New Yorkers if you ignore the choices their elected reps make.
I'll google it...
http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-world/mosque-near-ground-zero-clears-one-last-big-hurdle-20100804-11a8p.html
"Applause erupted when the commission recorded its 9-0 vote"
"Supporters say the project would build a bridge between the West and the Muslim world"

Mayor Michael Bloomberg said religious liberty, a key US value, was at stake.

"This is the freest city in the world. That's what makes New York special and different and strong. Our doors are open to everyone -- everyone with a dream and a willingness to work hard and play by the rules," Bloomberg said.


Yes, those 9 of the mayors stooges.

[InOne]

sorry mate ...your in the minority and the majority of New Yorkers for whom you think you speak, disagree with your intolerant views.

Nothing intolerant about my views (=

[ange7]

lol at your post getting smaller and smaller :P
bring an argument next time please. You have a great day.

[InOne]

lol at your post getting smaller and smaller :P
bring an argument next time please. You have a great day.

I have won this argument. 9 people don't speak for New York, or America.

Have a nice day too (=

[ange7]

I have won this argument. 9 people don't speak for New York, or America.

Have a nice day too (=

:elephant::cat::elephant:"I have won this argument":cat::elephant::cat:
mahahahah!!!! your desperation is music to my ears.

9 elected reps plus the mayor do speak for New York ... again "democracy" look it up.

Horrible backward views are not in the majority since most don't make the link between "fundamentalist bombers" and "Muslims". Most get the fact that these fundamentalist had an agenda and wanted to hide it behind the veil of respectability by calling there terrible deeds "holy". They weren't the first and won't be the last. They want to incite hate against all Muslims to enlarge their ranks. Some don't get this but MOST do. We know this because the Mosque is going to be built and the majority don't want to deny honest and decent Muslims the right to pray in a mosque. Denying them that right would be like saying "no..you were to blame!!!" and that's exactly what they are NOT saying by letting the plans go ahead.

[InOne]

Double post, silly forum :nono:

[InOne]

:elephant::cat::elephant:"I have won this argument":cat::elephant::cat:
mahahahah!!!! your desperation is music to my ears.

9 elected reps plus the mayor do speak for New York ... again "democracy" look it up.

Horrible backward views are not in the majority since most don't make the link between "fundamentalist bombers" and "Muslims". Most get the fact that these fundamentalist had an agenda and wanted to hide it behind the veil of respectability by calling there terrible deeds "holy". They weren't the first and won't be the last. They want to incite hate against all Muslims to enlarge their ranks. Some don't get this but MOST do. We know this because the Mosque is going to be built and the majority don't want to deny honest and decent Muslims the right to pray in a mosque. Denying them that right would be like saying "no..you were to blame!!!" and that's exactly what they are NOT saying by letting the plans go ahead.

Nobody wants to incite hate against all muslims lol Obviously muslims feel bad for those people who by no fault of their associated with religion. But building a mosque there isn't really going to help prejudice views is it? Yes, they can build it wherever they want, they can pray wherever they want, just seems an odd move that is all. Almost like doing themselves no favours, and the fact it's knocking down a 150 year old building doesn't help either. They don't need a mosque there they want one there. Don't get why there needs to be so much hassle for the sake of "Cos we can". Maybe idiots like the terrorist will decide to bomb that too? Then more lives lost. Just doesn't seem the best thought out idea.

[ange7]

"But building a mosque there isn't really going to help prejudice views is it?" ... and nor will it hurt. The majority agree with that. People don't make city planning decisions based on a vocal minority's "prejudice views"
"They don't need a mosque there they want one there"
Wrong ... there is an existing Muslim community there and they have the right as Americans and tax payers to have a place to worship. Your phrase "they don't need it, they want it" was pulled from your @rse ... how could you prove that. It was degned to protray Muslims in a hateful light as though they are TRYING to rub people's face in 9/11. Again luckily this negative and hateful view is in the minority.
"Maybe idiots like the terrorist will decide to bomb that too?"
I wouldn't put that pass them. The majority of deaths in Iraq are from terrorist attacking Muslims. This isn't a reason to stop honest Muslimsin NY from being allowed a place to pray. Denying them that would be like blaming them for 9/11.

[InOne]

"But building a mosque there isn't really going to help prejudice views is it?" ... and nor will it hurt. The majority agree with that. People don't make city planning decisions based on a vocal minority's "prejudice views"
"They don't need a mosque there they want one there"
Wrong ... there is an existing Muslim community there and they have the right as Americans and tax payers to have a place to worship. Your phrase "they don't need it, they want it" was pulled from your @rse ... how could you prove that. It was degned to protray Muslims in a hateful light as though they are TRYING to rub people's face in 9/11. Again luckily this negative and hateful view is in the minority.
"Maybe idiots like the terrorist will decide to bomb that too?"
I wouldn't put that pass them. The majority of deaths in Iraq are from terrorist attacking Muslims. This isn't a reason to stop honest Muslimsin NY from being allowed a place to pray. Denying them that would be like blaming them for 9/11.

Well that is the thing, if people are already protesting then it already has hurt, and you are making out like that minority is about 9 or something. There are already a good few mosques in Manhattan, so they don't really need it, they do want it. It's not like the muslim community there have to pray in the street is it? It's not about rubbing peoples faces in 9/11, I just don't see the need for it to be right then when it is upsetting people, that is all. Nobody is stopping them from having a place to pray or blaming them, it's a shame that the idiots gave a bad names to Muslims in general and make people think like that, but building it in that spot won't help matters for the muslim community at all.

[Vicky.]

I am muslim, and this is my take on it!
the bottom line is, there is no need for that!!!
Even if only ONE person who was affected by 911, objects to it being build in the vicinity, I think it shouldnt be built there.
ALlah doesnt care where you pray, as long as its clean. And if buiding a mosque at a certain location would cause some people pain, it should not be done. This is why a lot of religious leaders, fail iIslam. They fail to remember that above all, its a religion of peace,. And in this case, peace would mean, to go bulid the mosque somewhere else, without causing any controversy!
I know they have the right to build it in the area, and its actuall anti constitutional, if they are denied the opportunity. But constitution, shouldnt come into play here. Common sense, and keeping the peace should!
Very good post.

And also brilliant points. Especially the bolded part :)

[Vicky.]

Also, if this goes ahead, it is going to be ridiculously unsafe unless they have 24 hour security on the place.

I can imagine the mosque being under constant threat of attack. Why would people want to pray somewhere where some psycho might come in and blow them all away for the sake of a few extremeists? Seriously. I know I wouldnt knowingly go somewhere where I knew there was a chance of that happening.

[ange7]

Well that is the thing, if people are already protesting then it already has hurt, and you are making out like that minority is about 9 or something. There are already a good few mosques in Manhattan, so they don't really need it, they do want it. It's not like the muslim community there have to pray in the street is it? It's not about rubbing peoples faces in 9/11, I just don't see the need for it to be right then when it is upsetting people, that is all. Nobody is stopping them from having a place to pray or blaming them, it's a shame that the idiots gave a bad names to Muslims in general and make people think like that, but building it in that spot won't help matters for the muslim community at all.
"There are already a good few mosques in Manhattan, so they don't really need it, they do want it"
I don't believe your know exactly how many Mosques Manhattan has nor that your an expert on there placement, nor do I think your a demographer with a specialty on the the Muslim population numbers in NY. This argument (above) works onlt if all these things are true.... otherwise your just pulling facts from the air. THEY can decide if the NEED a new Mosque.... your implication that they don't actually NEED a mosque is based on nothing. Who are you to say what they need.
"but building it in that spot won't help matters for the muslim community at all"
Their choice. And it will help matters. It's the US saying to the Muslim community "we don't blame you".

[InOne]

"There are already a good few mosques in Manhattan, so they don't really need it, they do want it"
I don't believe your know exactly how many Mosques Manhattan has nor that your an expert on there placement, nor do I think your a demographer with a specialty on the the Muslim population numbers in NY. This argument (above) works onlt if all these things are true.... otherwise your just pulling facts from the air. THEY can decide if the NEED a new Mosque.... your implication that they don't actually NEED a mosque is based on nothing. Who are you to say what they need.
"but building it in that spot won't help matters for the muslim community at all"
Their choice. And it will help matters. It's the US saying to the Muslim community "we don't blame you".

Think on a news report I saw it said 9 not 100% on that, but not pulling facts from nowhere. Well may or may not help matters, who knows. But we won't really agree on anything here, so we'll have to see what happens lol

[ange7]

Very good post.

And also brilliant points. Especially the bolded part :)

"ALlah doesnt care where you pray, as long as its clean. And if buiding a mosque at a certain location would cause some people pain, it should not be done. This is why a lot of religious leaders, fail iIslam. They fail to remember that above all, its a religion of peace,. And in this case, peace would mean, to go bulid the mosque somewhere else, without causing any controversy!"
"its a religion of peace"
then why blame it by denying them the right to build a Mosque? Denying them that right is like saying "we blame you". Those that mistakenly blame 9/11 on the wider moderate Muslim population should not be proved correct by this building being stopped.
"And in this case, peace would mean, to go bulid the mosque somewhere else, without causing any controversy!"
Building a Mosque isn't controversial unless people believe there IS a link between those Muslims wanting to build it and the terrorists.

[ange7]

Think on a news report I saw it said 9 not 100% on that, but not pulling facts from nowhere. Well may or may not help matters, who knows. But we won't really agree on anything here, so we'll have to see what happens lol
lol fine ... it's midnight here :P

[Vicky.]

"ALlah doesnt care where you pray, as long as its clean. And if buiding a mosque at a certain location would cause some people pain, it should not be done. This is why a lot of religious leaders, fail iIslam. They fail to remember that above all, its a religion of peace,. And in this case, peace would mean, to go bulid the mosque somewhere else, without causing any controversy!"
"its a religion of peace"
then why blame it by denying them the right to build a Mosque? Denying them that right is like saying "we blame you". Those that mistakenly blame 9/11 on the wider moderate Muslim population should not be proved correct by this building being stopped.
"And in this case, peace would mean, to go bulid the mosque somewhere else, without causing any controversy!"
Building a Mosque isn't controversial unless people believe there IS a link between those Muslims wanting to build it and the terrorists.

Why would 'they' as you say, want to build a mosque where it would cause more pain to the people who have already had their lives ripped apart by the extremists? If Islam is such a peaceful religion?

Wildcat has a point, and you know it.

[InOne]

lol fine ... it's midnight here :P

I know, but we'd only end up going over the same points again lol Plus you've decided to take on Vicky now, good luck ;)

[rick-roll]

InOne, your argument against ange7 keeps falling flat on its face.


Terrorist Attacks on U.S. Soil by Group, From 1980 to 2005, According to FBI Database
http://a.imageshack.us/img830/516/57685004.jpg

I honestly think think that this has less to do with a muslim community centre being built near ground zero and more to do with a small group of people who believe that muslims are building on 'sacred' ground just to spit in the face America. If people are so upset about this, do people have a problem with the shinto shrine near pearl harbour? What about this: In 1070 Pope Alexander II ordered the Normans to do penance for killing so many people during their conquest of England. So William the Conqueror vowed to build an abbey where the Battle of Hastings had taken place, with the high altar of its church on the supposed spot where King Harold fell in that battle on Saturday, 14 October 1066.

The point is, this is being made a big deal because the extremists claimed to be muslim so 1.5 billion muslims are being tarnished with the same brush. If they happened to be christian, religion would not even come into play, their nationality would.

[InOne]

No it isn't. And why are you posting that about the % of terrorist attacks? What has that got to do with anything?

[rick-roll]

No it isn't. And why are you posting that about the % of terrorist attacks? What has that got to do with anything?


It's obvious that a lot of people don't just have a problem with the ground zero issue but with islam itself. To think that muslims are a threat or that this mosque is an offensive attack is asinine. It is not being built on or near sacred/holy ground and doesn't intend to represent hatred or violence. It's a muslim community centre ffs. The pie chart was just an example of how America prioritize their focus on the wrong things.

Protest against muslims because the extremists were muslims. Invade Iraq because the extremists were Iraqis....oh wait a minute, they were Saudis. A nation that shares a special relationship (and oil supply) with the US.

The whole thing is just fear-mongering and ignorance spurred on by right-wing extremist groups and idiots who can't think for themselves.

[InOne]

It's obvious that a lot of people don't just have a problem with the ground zero issue but with islam itself. To think that muslims are a threat or that this mosque is an offensive attack is asinine. It is not being built on or near sacred/holy ground and doesn't intend to represent hatred or violence. It's a muslim community centre ffs. The pie chart was just an example of how America prioritize their focus on the wrong things.

Protest against muslims because the extremists were muslims. Invade Iraq because the extremists were Iraqis....oh wait a minute, they were Saudis. A nation that shares a special relationship (and oil supply) with the US.

The whole thing is just fear-mongering and ignorance spurred on by right-wing extremist groups and idiots who can't think for themselves.

Well you've already seen my views on the matter. But will be interesting to see how the whole thing pans out.

[WOMBAI]

As Muslim extremists were responsible for 9/11 - then of course there is a link to Muslims - and the building of a Muslim mosque is going to cause pain and insult to thousands of people!

A moderate Muslim would surely empathise with that and want to show some respect - not to mention - to do something that is bound to be perceived as very provocative in such fragile times is incredibly insensitive - why would moderate Muslims want to damage their own chances of successful integration into American society this way! It is asking for trouble - and seems in very poor taste!

[Wildcat!]

"ALlah doesnt care where you pray, as long as its clean. And if buiding a mosque at a certain location would cause some people pain, it should not be done. This is why a lot of religious leaders, fail iIslam. They fail to remember that above all, its a religion of peace,. And in this case, peace would mean, to go bulid the mosque somewhere else, without causing any controversy!"
"its a religion of peace"
then why blame it by denying them the right to build a Mosque? Denying them that right is like saying "we blame you". Those that mistakenly blame 9/11 on the wider moderate Muslim population should not be proved correct by this building being stopped.
"And in this case, peace would mean, to go bulid the mosque somewhere else, without causing any controversy!"
Building a Mosque isn't controversial unless people believe there IS a link between those Muslims wanting to build it and the terrorists.


I am not saying they dont have the right. The perfectly have the right to build a mosque there, and its gonna go ahead. But knowing that there are strong opposition, it doesnt hurt to build it somewhere else.
I dont mind that they build the mosque there obviously, but I know that it will attract drama, and things are gonna go down, after its built, thats inevitable. And Islam doesnt need that, with all the anti muslims of these days, and it will go back and forth.

I know we are not all responsible for terrorists attacks, but you have to take some responsibility. Its like when your relative does something bad, it still reflects on you somehow.

Bottom line is, if they feel they absolutely have to build the mosque there, then fair enough, but I just dont think they do.

[Wildcat!]

It's obvious that a lot of people don't just have a problem with the ground zero issue but with islam itself. To think that muslims are a threat or that this mosque is an offensive attack is asinine. It is not being built on or near sacred/holy ground and doesn't intend to represent hatred or violence. It's a muslim community centre ffs. The pie chart was just an example of how America prioritize their focus on the wrong things.

Protest against muslims because the extremists were muslims. Invade Iraq because the extremists were Iraqis....oh wait a minute, they were Saudis. A nation that shares a special relationship (and oil supply) with the US.

The whole thing is just fear-mongering and ignorance spurred on by right-wing extremist groups and idiots who can't think for themselves.


I aGREE, its anti islamic for sure, it has nothing to do with ground zero at all. Same thing is going on all over Europe, where they have all kinds of reasons why mosques shouldnt be built (minaret is too tall, the mosque is too big etcc, all kinds of Bull****) but thats what they decide to use as an excuse for this one.
My point is, let them have this one! If its such a big deal, let them have it, and they wont have anything to complain about whatsoever. Thats why I said, just go buid it a little farther away. The people upset, will still be upset, except this time, they wont have an excuse, other than anti islamic! They cant hide behind the ground zero excuse.

[Tom4784]

A moderate Muslim would surely empathise with that and want to show some respect - not to mention - to do something that is bound to be perceived as very provocative in such fragile times is incredibly insensitive - why would moderate Muslims want to damage their own chances of successful integration into American society this way! It is asking for trouble - and seems in very poor taste!

Yes because moderate and casual muslims are REALLY rallying behind the building of this aren't they? Just because they're muslims doesn't mean they don't have sense and anyone with sense knows that this is going to cause violence towards any innocent muslims foolish enough to go to that mosque.

Not all muslims are in on some plan to convert everyone and everything and not all muslims are supporting this.

That's what I hate about topics like this, millions of people get demonified due to the actions of a few. Muslims are people just like us. They aren't one single concience that's got an evil agenda for our way of living and they aren't some sort of Sci Fi threat. I can guarantee that there's many muslims opposing, you just won't hear their points of view because it doesn't fit in with the narrative. You'll only hear from the extremists because that causes fear and fear sells newspapers. It's called a Moral Panic, look it up.

Anyway now I've got that out of the way, my opinion is that it shouldn't be built, NOT because of the ignorant masses baying for blood but for any practioners that could get harmed in the crossfire.

[WOMBAI]

Yes because moderate and casual muslims are REALLY rallying behind the building of this aren't they? Just because they're muslims doesn't mean they don't have sense and anyone with sense knows that this is going to cause violence towards any innocent muslims foolish enough to go to that mosque.

Not all muslims are in on some plan to convert everyone and everything and not all muslims are supporting this.

That's what I hate about topics like this, millions of people get demonified due to the actions of a few. Muslims are people just like us. They aren't one single concience that's got an evil agenda for our way of living and they aren't some sort of Sci Fi threat. I can guarantee that there's many muslims opposing, you just won't hear their points of view because it doesn't fit in with the narrative. You'll only hear from the extremists because that causes fear and fear sells newspapers. It's called a Moral Panic, look it up.

Anyway now I've got that out of the way, my opinion is that it shouldn't be built, NOT because of the ignorant masses baying for blood but for any practioners that could get harmed in the crossfire.

Don't patronise me - you're not the expert you seem to think you are! My views are based on many things - not what I read in the Daily Mail or any other paper! What an arrogant remark!

I am not saying all Muslims, moderate or otherwise are supporting this, but clearly it is not just extremists behind this! What has moral panic got to do with anything - not about fear, just about commonsense prevailing over bad taste!

Regardless of anything else - it is disrespecful to build a mosque so close to ground zero! 9/11 was carried out by Muslims - regardless of nationality - and that is what is going to upset, not only the relatives of those who died, but many others as well!

To then go and build a hugh symbol of the Muslim religion so close to the site of such an atrocity - is laughing in the face of the Americans - including those that died and their families! Of course it can't be allowed! In the end - common sense and common decency - rule the day!

[Shasown]

I am sure Mayor Bloomberg and co notes the concern of people who violently disagree with this mosque being built. However it is a reasonable distance away from the actual site of what was the Twin Towers.

Initially the opponents of the mosque made out it was on the site of the atrocity, in order to make capital out of perceived public distaste, however common sense has prevailed.

Incidentally for those saying it is laughing in the face of common decency, what distance would you recommend, do you also recommend creating an exclusion zome for any muslims who live or work near the site of the 11/9 disaster?

[WOMBAI]

It looks pretty close to me - Daily Mail or not! Too close in my opinion - and obviously those of many others!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1278922/Plans-mosque-Ground-Zero.html

[Wildcat!]

This mosque is probably gonna go ahead, it has been approved and everything, and no laws, or constitutional parts, is gonna stop it. It would be anti american, to even consider that. I dont want the mosque to be stopped, because of some law, or judge ruling. That would open up all kinds of possibilities of intolerance towards muslims in the future. So that better not happen, because then you are really asking for troubles. So its only up to the project leaders.

Like I said, seeing peoples views on it, I dont think it would be a bad thing to build it somewhere else. And that brings up another point: HOw far away is good enough then? BEcause as far as I know, the mosque isnt visible from Ground zero. What would be the appropriate distance? If you think about that, it sounds pretty stupid to be honest! I am pretty sure that whoever opposes this mosque wont be happy regardless of where its built. The most vigorous opponent, dont live anywhere near Manhattan. They will still see mosques, not even that far away from ground zero. So really it wont change a thing. Except, this gives people justification for showing indignation and intolerance.

The whole point of the mosque was to open up the islamic culture, to a greater audience. NOt to convert anyone, but to educate them more about what Islam really is. A lot of non muslims complain that they dont know what goes on in mosques, and would like to know. This was a perfect opportunity, because it would be completely opened to anyone of any faith and any background, and I suspect everything would be in English, apart from prayers. The mosque is maybe 10% of the project.

Another interesting statistics, and that relates to my point about the vast majority of opponets: New yorkers, dissaprove of the project with a very small majority, like 53 to 47, and residents of Manhattan, approve of it, with a large majority, about 60 to 40. And that tells you, the people who are most concerned, are the once who have no problem with it. Once again, its the one who really wouldnt be affected at all, that shows its intolerance, and that includes myself of course.

A lot of my friends in the US, muslims and otherwise, after hearing my views on this, think Ive seen too many instances of religious intolerance (mostly islamic) in Europe, that I am willing to compromise, and let this happen here. Maybe they have a point. I might have felt differently, 3 years ago. Thats why the law would never stop such a thing in the US. It can only be voluntary! I am thankful for that!

[Tom4784]

Don't patronise me - you're not the expert you seem to think you are! My views are based on many things - not what I read in the Daily Mail or any other paper! What an arrogant remark!

I am not saying all Muslims, moderate or otherwise are supporting this, but clearly it is not just extremists behind this! What has moral panic got to do with anything - not about fear, just about commonsense prevailing over bad taste!

Regardless of anything else - it is disrespecful to build a mosque so close to ground zero! 9/11 was carried out by Muslims - regardless of nationality - and that is what is going to upset, not only the relatives of those who died, but many others as well!

To then go and build a hugh symbol of the Muslim religion so close to the site of such an atrocity - is laughing in the face of the Americans - including those that died and their families! Of course it can't be allowed! In the end - common sense and common decency - rule the day!

Moral Panic doesn't just mean panic or fear, it can mean stirring up anger as well. Think of the Jonathon Ross phone scandal, that was something small until the Daily Mail picked it up and stirred the pot, that was anger rather then fear but it can still be classed as a moral panic. If it wasn't for the media incorrectly reporting that it'd be built on Ground Zero would we be aware of it at all?

We're all guilty of being misled by Media, i'm not being arrogant like you always say I am. I'm just saying it's the main reason why Islam is so demonised because the media has stirred the pot for years. If another terrorist attack were to happen that was committed by a different group we'd all be in fear of them and the media would have a new target.

But I agree with Shasown and Wildcat, I just hope the more hardcore opposition don't do anything stupid.

[WOMBAI]

Moral Panic doesn't just mean panic or fear, it can mean stirring up anger as well. Think of the Jonathon Ross phone scandal, that was something small until the Daily Mail picked it up and stirred the pot, that was anger rather then fear but it can still be classed as a moral panic. If it wasn't for the media incorrectly reporting that it'd be built on Ground Zero would we be aware of it at all?

We're all guilty of being misled by Media, i'm not being arrogant like you always say I am. I'm just saying it's the main reason why Islam is so demonised because the media has stirred the pot for years. If another terrorist attack were to happen that was committed by a different group we'd all be in fear of them and the media would have a new target.

But I agree with Shasown and Wildcat, I just hope the more hardcore opposition don't do anything stupid.

Oh I see - 9/11 and 7/7 were simply fabricated or exaggerated by the media - they didn't really happen - or perhaps they weren't perpetrated by Muslims!

We are all just idiots who have got the wrong end of the stick! I see! :sleep:

Yes lets hope they don't sink to the depths of the depraved behaviour of extremist Muslims!

[Tom4784]

Oh I see - 9/11 and 7/7 were simply fabricated or exaggerated by the media - they didn't really happen - or perhaps they weren't perpetrated by Muslims!

We are all just idiots who have got the wrong end of the stick! I see! :sleep:

Once again, you get it wrong (an increasingly common occurence). I'm talking about the demonisation of many innocent people since those events, I didn't even mention anything about 9/11 and 7/7 so you can stop playing that game right there. At the end of the day it was a few Saudi Arabian Muslims that attacked those who aren't representative of an entire faith, just like the peadophile priests aren't representative of Catholicism or the IRA a representative of Ireland.

I'm talking about the targeting of muslims since then in the general media, they're being made out to be some sort of heinous bond villains and innocent people are being made to suffer for it. I've seen it with my own eyes and it ain't right. Good people who just happen to be muslim are being persecuted by the public for their faith and I don't agree with that. I'm not saying all muslims are innocent, there are extremists and people who do support those horrendous actions but that doesn't mean the whole faith has to suffer. I'm sorry but I've seen the kind of hatred the media stirs up and it sickens me.

Target the individuals for the crimes they commit, not the whole.

[Wildcat!]

I am sure Mayor Bloomberg and co notes the concern of people who violently disagree with this mosque being built. However it is a reasonable distance away from the actual site of what was the Twin Towers.

Initially the opponents of the mosque made out it was on the site of the atrocity, in order to make capital out of perceived public distaste, however common sense has prevailed.

Incidentally for those saying it is laughing in the face of common decency, what distance would you recommend, do you also recommend creating an exclusion zome for any muslims who live or work near the site of the 11/9 disaster?


HOw did I not see your post? You said almost exactly what I did! :)

[BB_Eye]

Interestingly, the approval rate for this mosque is even higher in NYC than it is in New York state as a whole. Both polls had more people in favour than against. I'm not saying that decisions should be made on the basis of public approval alone, but it does show that New Yorkers are not personally offended by this and the Ground Zero Mosque label is very misleading. It's not as if they're building it on Ground Zero itself or even within view of Ground Zero.

On reflection, I don't see this doing any harm and the meaning behind the name Cordoba House are quite positive, hearkening back to the peaceful co-existence of muslims and Christians in medieval Spain.

[Wildcat!]

Interestingly, the approval rate for this mosque is even higher in NYC than it is in New York state as a whole. Both polls had more people in favour than against. I'm not saying that decisions should be made on the basis of public approval alone, but it does show that New Yorkers are not personally offended by this and the Ground Zero Mosque label is very misleading. It's not as if they're building it on Ground Zero itself or even within view of Ground Zero.

On reflection, I don't see this doing any harm and the meaning behind the name Cordoba House are quite positive, hearkening back to the peaceful co-existence of muslims and Christians in medieval Spain.


Exactly, I stated that in my post. And if you isolate Manhattan alone, they are in favor with a big majority! Its the people less affected that are acting all offended, in the name of the locals.
And yeah, more and more, I really dont see the big deal in this mosque. My only concern, is having people act violently towards the mosque, or the people going in there in general!

I didnt know about the significance of the name. I knew the reason for the mosque was to bridge the gap, and people have stomped all over it! Its a shame!

[setanta]

The reality is that if it's goes ahead there will be protests, if not more. It's close enought to the ground zero for it to be viewed as a disrespectful act.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Haha the usual suspects creating a storm in a teacup to attack muslims generally! Its like effin groundhog day here

[InOne]

Haha the usual suspects creating a storm in a teacup to attack muslims generally! Its like effin groundhog day here

And as usual, you have to real argument. Just make silly little comments.

[NettoSuperstar!]

And as usual, you have to real argument. Just make silly little comments.

What? real argument? dont make me laff...all the freaks acting like theyre constructing a giant mosque covering ground zero with minarets as high as the twin towers, when the sensible, normal, actual, common sense might offer you a clue to reality is, it is being built on the site of an old coat factory several blocks away...get real

[InOne]

What? real argument? dont make me laff...all the freaks acting like theyre constructing a giant mosque covering ground zero with minarets as high as the twin towers, when the sensible, normal, actual, common sense might offer you a clue to reality is, it is being built on the site of an old coat factory several blocks away...get real

Well I'm sure you've read the thread and seen my views on it. I never even mentioned Muslims or extremists that much. We'll just have to see what happens...

[Wildcat!]

Haha the usual suspects creating a storm in a teacup to attack muslims generally! Its like effin groundhog day here

Isnt it though? YOu can always guess, who will be the highest posters, on a thread which have anything negative to do with Islam or immigrants!

Funny how that works out! :)

[NettoSuperstar!]

Well I'm sure you've read the thread and seen my views on it. I never even mentioned Muslims or extremists that much. We'll just have to see what happens...

I'll tell you what will happen a few right wing extremists and a few islamic extremists will try and stir up as much publicity and hate as they can and everyone else will just get on with their lives seeing it for what it is...much ado about nowt!

[InOne]

Isnt it though? YOu can always guess, who will be the highest posters, on a thread which have anything negative to do with Islam or immigrants!

Funny how that works out! :)

Islam for me. Not immigrants. And it's not a problem with Muslims it's a problem with the religion. Nothing wrong with that, unless you're against free speech of course...

[InOne]

I'll tell you what will happen a few right wing extremists and a few islamic extremists will try and stir up as much publicity and hate as they can and everyone else will just get on with their lives seeing it for what it is...much ado about nowt!

Indeed, but I was just having an opinion, just like everyone else who has posted in this thread.

[Wildcat!]

Islam for me. Not immigrants. And it's not a problem with Muslims it's a problem with the religion. Nothing wrong with that, unless you're against free speech of course...


oh NO! FREE SPEECH AWAY!
MOst people dont mind, and it aint gonna stop it, so happy speeching!!!

[Omen]

What? real argument? dont make me laff...all the freaks acting like theyre constructing a giant mosque covering ground zero with minarets as high as the twin towers, when the sensible, normal, actual, common sense might offer you a clue to reality is, it is being built on the site of an old coat factory several blocks away...get real

I agree, and also agree with one of the other posters above (who is muslim) who said build them elsewhere if they are causing offence. And to the poster who said not to tarnish everyone with the same brush.


The problem is with Islam and how the bombers invoked/invoke their religion, calling their struggle a jihad or holy war, much like the crusades were a holy war in their time. On the other side, George Bush invoked God on his side. To his credit Pope John Paul criticised the invasion of Iraq, and so the Catholic Church disowned it from the very top. Maybe muslims could excommunictate extremists like the cleric Al Hamsa.

There are 2 sides to this, and neither is absolutely right or wrong.

On balance, I'd say build the mosque.

Here's a point: hypothetically if there was to be a religous memorial on the ground zero site, I wouldn't exclude symbols/symbolism of Islam or any religion. In fact, if there was such a memorial it would be good for reconciliation; it would show solidarity with the victims, some of whom were muslims (I'm sure).

[InOne]

oh NO! FREE SPEECH AWAY!
MOst people dont mind, and it aint gonna stop it, so happy speeching!!!

Cool. But it just seems Muslims take it more personally than say a Christian would (I don't like any Religion by the way). The Muslim would assume I had a problem with them, when it's not the case. Just the way it comes across to me anyway.

[Wildcat!]

Cool. But it just seems Muslims take it more personally than say a Christian would (I don't like any Religion by the way). The Muslim would assume I had a problem with them, when it's not the case. Just the way it comes across to me anyway.


your problem with muslims and opinions about islam, are totally insignificant to me!
I actually care more about who this matters to. ie: The residents of Manhattan, who overwhelmingly support this project. ie, the opinions of the people who this actually affects directly! NOt the opinion of someone who live 1000s of miles away, in a different country!

SO like I said, Free Speech away! :)

[Omen]

Cool. But it just seems Muslims take it more personally than say a Christian would (I don't like any Religion by the way). The Muslim would assume I had a problem with them, when it's not the case. Just the way it comes across to me anyway.

Just like some Israelis play the anti-semite card, and some others play the race card. Sometimes it's justified but as often not.

[InOne]

Just like some Israelis play the anti-semite card, and some oothers play the race card. Sometimes it's justified but as often not.

Yeah definitely.

[InOne]

your problem with muslims and opinions about islam, are totally insignificant to me!
I actually care more about who this matters to. ie: The residents of Manhattan, who overwhelmingly support this project. ie, the opinions of the people who this actually affects directly! NOt the opinion of someone who live 1000s of miles away, in a different country!

SO like I said, Free Speech away! :)

Good for you...

[Wildcat!]

Just like some Israelis play the anti-semite card, and some others play the race card. Sometimes it's justified but as often not.

There are none so blind as those who will not see! :)
But most people dont have that problem.

[NettoSuperstar!]

I agree, and also agree with one of the other posters above (who is muslim) who said build them elsewhere if they are causing offence. And to the poster who said not to tarnish everyone with the same brush.


The problem is with Islam and how the bombers invoked/invoke their religion, calling their struggle a jihad or holy war, much like the crusades were a holy war in their time. On the other side, George Bush invoked God on his side. To his credit Pope John Paul criticised the invasion of Iraq, and so the Catholic Church disowned it from the very top. Maybe muslims could excommunictate extremists like the cleric Al Hamsa.

There are 2 sides to this, and neither is absolutely right or wrong.

On balance, I'd say build the mosque.

Here's a point: hypothetically if there was to be a religous memorial on the ground zero site, I wouldn't exclude symbols/symbolism of Islam or any religion. In fact, if there was such a memorial it would be good for reconciliation; it would show solidarity with the victims, some of whom were muslims (I'm sure).

Exactly and not to mention the muslim fire fighters, Dr's, Nurses etc that saved peoples lives on this day, to say a mosque cant be built anywhere near the site is to say all of islam and all muslims are responsible for 9/11 which is just ridiculous

[InOne]

Exactly and not to mention the muslim fire fighters, Dr's, Nurses etc that saved peoples lives on this day, to say a mosque cant be built anywhere near the site is to say all of islam and all muslims are responsible for 9/11 which is just ridiculous

Who has ever said all Muslims were responsible for 9/11? lol

[NettoSuperstar!]

Who has ever said all Muslims were responsible for 9/11? lol

thats what its like saying if you think having a mosque nearby is offensive

[InOne]

thats what its like saying if you think having a mosque nearby is offensive

How is it?

[NettoSuperstar!]

How is it?

Because your associating ordinary muslims going about their usual worship with the nutters that did it...innit

[dudus]

Because your associating ordinary muslims going about their usual worship with the nutters that did it...innit

nah nah **** THIS
there building that mosque there to piss the yanks off, them muslim scum are pissing all over everyone what died that day, and THE LIBERAL MAFIA LET THEM GET AWAY WI IT!

[NettoSuperstar!]

LoL@the liberal mafia

[InOne]

Because your associating ordinary muslims going about their usual worship with the nutters that did it...innit

Not really lol

[Shasown]

nah nah **** THIS
there building that mosque there to piss the yanks off, them muslim scum are pissing all over everyone what died that day, and THE LIBERAL MAFIA LET THEM GET AWAY WI IT!

Yeah a great idea to gain acceptance and integrate with them, hack off the people you live with. Derrr.

Ever think that it might also show that American Muslims are/were just as shocked and outraged at the atrocity? In fact cancel that, I will make it easier for you ever think?

[InOne]

Obama says his views

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/15/us/politics/15mosque.html?_r=1&ref=nyregion

[ElProximo]

A Mosque in that area will lead to more violence, terrorist attacks on New York and elsewhere.
Oh yes it will.
And having NOTHING to do with anyone else but Muslims.

I don't have time to explain why this will happen but many of you can figure it out. Its actually quite obvious if you know how many Muslims really do think about these things.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Lol@ " I dont have time to explain why this will happen"...hmmmm is that because its utter bollocks?

[ange7]

Lol@ " I dont have time to explain why this will happen"...hmmmm is that because its utter bollocks?
hehe ... it's simple as... but no amount of explaining will help that one Netto. He/she just talks in circles and then says :elephant: :elephant: I won the argument !! :elephant: :elephant: tee hee"
By denying these muslims a right to a place to pray InOne is saying "you are to blame, not just the terrorists but all muslims EVERYWHERE". LOL!!!
Inone wants to blame all Muslims for the act of 9/11... clear as day. He/she thought the majority agreed but not only does the mayor of NY think this building should go up but now the president does too. THEY are the elected reps of the people, NOT the protesters. The majority agree that by stopping the mosque what your actually saying is "you are to blame!" Most American think that is a load of old ballz. Sorry InOne ... this thread has only lasted this long because you ignore points and side step facts. Lol at you for moaning about so many hate threads here on tibb and then you coming up with this little ripper hehe

[ange7]

nah nah **** THIS
there building that mosque there to piss the yanks off, them muslim scum are pissing all over everyone what died that day, and THE LIBERAL MAFIA LET THEM GET AWAY WI IT!
lol ... what is wrong with you?
"they're building that mosque there to piss the yanks off"
??
as though Islam HQ plans where all mosques are built around the world. The people building the Mosque ARE Americans ffs. The MAJORITY of Americans are in favor of it. Only those that want to link 9/11 with the Muslin religion would agree with InOne.

[Shasown]

Lol@ " I dont have time to explain why this will happen"...hmmmm is that because its utter bollocks?

It could end up with violence etc but I wouldnt say it would be confined to Muslims only.

For starters you will get demonstrators appearing at the start of the conversion work, then at the opening, this will in turn to counter demonstrators both Muslim and also civil rights types.

Then you have threats from misguided revenge seekers, anti muslim groups, ultra right wing groups, or just plain nutters who like to jump onto a cause and use it to justify causing violence.

Any attacks on either the community centre itself or its users could generate retaliation from certain sectors of the muslim community, or from muslims based in other parts of the US or even overseas.

[ange7]

A Mosque in that area will lead to more violence, terrorist attacks on New York and elsewhere.
Oh yes it will.
And having NOTHING to do with anyone else but Muslims.

I don't have time to explain why this will happen but many of you can figure it out. Its actually quite obvious if you know how many Muslims really do think about these things.
"A Mosque in that area will lead to more violence, terrorist attacks on New York and elsewhere."
you pulled this from your arse? Muslim taxpayers have a right to pray locally and if nut jobs and racist ******* want to commit a crime against the building then that's where the police come in. Since they are rate payers they ought to expect to be able to pray locally and have these redneck morons handled by the police. Muslims choosing build this mosque shouldn't have to make that choice with the threat of violence hanging over them. You seem to think they ought to make choices about whether to build the Mosque BASED on those threats.

[NettoSuperstar!]

It could end up with violence etc but I wouldnt say it would be confined to Muslims only.

For starters you will get demonstrators appearing at the start of the conversion work, then at the opening, this will in turn to counter demonstrators both Muslim and also civil rights types.

Then you have threats from misguided revenge seekers, anti muslim groups, ultra right wing groups, or just plain nutters who like to jump onto a cause and use it to justify causing violence.

Any attacks on either the community centre itself or its users could generate retaliation from certain sectors of the muslim community, or from muslims based in other parts of the US or even overseas.

Sure they'll be a few idiots but it'll fizzle out in to nothing its unlikely to cause major terrorist attacks there or abroad, lots of muslims get attacked already because of all the **** flying about, doesnt mean you give in to it

[ange7]

It could end up with violence etc but I wouldnt say it would be confined to Muslims only.

For starters you will get demonstrators appearing at the start of the conversion work, then at the opening, this will in turn to counter demonstrators both Muslim and also civil rights types.

Then you have threats from misguided revenge seekers, anti muslim groups, ultra right wing groups, or just plain nutters who like to jump onto a cause and use it to justify causing violence.

Any attacks on either the community centre itself or its users could generate retaliation from certain sectors of the muslim community, or from muslims based in other parts of the US or even overseas.
"It could end up with violence etc but I wouldnt say it would be confined to Muslims only."
Nor did she.
Threats of violence from the minority that are against the mosque are used as a reason for it not being built. Why should THAT minority dictate, through the threat of violence, the plans of people to build themselves a place to pray? Saying "ooo but there will be some racist nut jobs who will react badly" isn't a reason to deny the Muslims the right to a place to pray. As rate payers Muslims who will use the mosque are entitled to the same protections afforded to all places, buildings and people.

[oddballmisfitsFTW]

mosque at ground zero is good idea methinks

less likely they attack that area again

america and britain should build thousands of mini mosques (each having a statue of mohamed over the front door) next to all the major landmarks

then on top of each mosque put one of these smilies >>>> :elephant:

[ange7]

mosque at ground zero is good idea methinks

less likely they attack that area again

america and britain should build thousands of mini mosques (each having a statue of mohamed over the front door) next to all the major landmarks

then on top of each mosque put one of these smilies >>>> :elephant:
lol .. while your at at send :elephant: over to Palatine get peace in the middle east happening.

[Shasown]

Sure they'll be a few idiots but it'll fizzle out in to nothing its unlikely to cause major terrorist attacks there or abroad, lots of muslims get attacked already because of all the **** flying about, doesnt mean you give in to it

Hopefully thats true. But you never know with American extremists.

"It could end up with violence etc but I wouldnt say it would be confined to Muslims only."
Nor did she.
Threats of violence from the minority that are against the mosque are used as a reason for it not being built. Why should THAT minority dictate, through the threat of violence, the plans of people to build themselves a place to pray? Saying "ooo but there will be some racist nut jobs who will react badly" isn't a reason to deny the Muslims the right to a place to pray. As rate payers Muslims who will use the mosque are entitled to the same protections afforded to all places, buildings and people.

I know she didnt, I was explaining why violence at least in the short term would or could happen, thats not to say it would only be confined to the short term, some of the home grown american lunatic fringe may sit back years and let hate fester.

I think to deny them the community centre in that location would undermine the principles America is supposed to be built upon. I agree the threat of a possible attack shouldnt be used as a reason to deny them permission to build the centre.

Hopefully the centre will build bridges as opposed to destroy them.

[InOne]

hehe ... it's simple as... but no amount of explaining will help that one Netto. He/she just talks in circles and then says :elephant: :elephant: I won the argument !! :elephant: :elephant: tee hee"
By denying these muslims a right to a place to pray InOne is saying "you are to blame, not just the terrorists but all muslims EVERYWHERE". LOL!!!
Inone wants to blame all Muslims for the act of 9/11... clear as day. He/she thought the majority agreed but not only does the mayor of NY think this building should go up but now the president does too. THEY are the elected reps of the people, NOT the protesters. The majority agree that by stopping the mosque what your actually saying is "you are to blame!" Most American think that is a load of old ballz. Sorry InOne ... this thread has only lasted this long because you ignore points and side step facts. Lol at you for moaning about so many hate threads here on tibb and then you coming up with this little ripper hehe

Eh? lol God you're an idiot.

[oddballmisfitsFTW]

allahu akbar !!!!

allahu akbar !!!!

allahu akbar !!!!

admiral ackbar !!!!

[ElProximo]

mosque at ground zero is good idea methinks

less likely they attack that area again

america and britain should build thousands of mini mosques (each having a statue of mohamed over the front door) next to all the major landmarks

then on top of each mosque put one of these smilies >>>> :elephant:

Unfortunately no.
Because so many of us come from a Christian heritage then that becomes our reference.
We think (according to our reference) that Muslims must have a parallel 'sacrilege'.
But they do not.

You can see this in the Afghanistan, Iraq wars. Muslims most definitely CAN use mosques as military bases.
They can fight from mosques.
They can hide in mosques, have firefights in mosques. They can take prisoners inside mosques.

Here is another thing most westerners don't understand but the building of that mosque CONFIRMS the will of Allah to the militant branch.
It fuels them.
Far from preventing them from bombing that area again it actually ENCOURAGES them.
Here would be something of the thinking:

We bombed the Jew Building and some Muslim meeting center was damaged in the blast. That was their contribution by Allah.
As a result?
A Mosque grew in the place!
PROOF that Allah condones it!
OK.
So now we have 'proof' it was good and if we can kill even MORE Jews and Americans we will be rewarded with not just one Mosque but soon ALL of New York will come under the house of Islam,
Not just ONE mosque but millions will eventually SUBMIT to Islam!

I notice almost NOBODY is discussing how building this mosque will fuel, motivate, excite and only encourage Jihadist's to DO MORE BOMBING of New York.
Now this may not be the intention of the ones building it but it WILL be what happens and they ought to know that.

People just don't realize what a vulgar death religion most (not all) but most Muslims are involved with or support.

[Lee.]

I have noticed this mentioned briefly on the news and online etc but haven't really paid that much attention..
So, they're actually going to build a mosque on ground zero? Where the towers fell?
PLease tell me that is some kind of joke?!

[BB_Eye]

I have noticed this mentioned briefly on the news and online etc but haven't really paid that much attention..
So, they're actually going to build a mosque on ground zero? Where the towers fell?
PLease tell me that is some kind of joke?!

Not literally on ground zero. A few blocks away, where it can't be seen, but it will be in a building that was damaged during the attacks.

[Lee.]

Not literally on ground zero. A few blocks away, where it can't be seen, but it will be in a building that was damaged during the attacks.

Hmm.. well in that case, I don't really know how I feel about it :conf:

[dudus]

a hear there building a gay bar next to this mosque, well all a can say is GOOD, a hope it really pisses them muslims off :)

[ange7]

Eh? lol God you're an idiot.
yeah... reported

[InOne]

yeah... reported

Awwwww poor baby :bawling:

[Shaun]

-is thankful for being on a forum with Nettosuperstar and ange7-

some sense :love:

saying that Islam was responsible for 9/11 is like saying Shintoism is responsible for Pearl Harbor. It's just using a national tragedy to sweep up hysteria in an attempt to tarnish an institution these people don't really understand.

[ange7]

Awwwww poor baby :bawling:
dude you baiting me now?
argue your point... what's stopping you?

[InOne]

dude you baiting me now?
argue your point... what's stopping you?

What is the point when you type things I never even brought up? Can't argue with a troll.

[ange7]

-is thankful for being on a forum with Nettosuperstar and ange7-

some sense :love:

saying that Islam was responsible for 9/11 is like saying Shintoism is responsible for Pearl Harbor. It's just using a national tragedy to sweep up hysteria in an attempt to tarnish an institution these people don't really understand.
cheers Shaun
Dateline ( current affairs show here in oz) did a story on this topic. Here's the link
http://www.sbs.com.au/dateline/story/watch/id/600697/n/Ground-Zero-Mosque
Some like you will who want to know ALL the info on what they are talking about will find it pretty useful. For others facts are like water off a ducks back. :P

[ange7]

What is the point when you type things I never even brought up? Can't argue with a troll.
"your an idiot" and "Awwwww poor baby" makes you the troll champ. mahahahahah!

[ange7]

back to "the nest" mate

[InOne]

"your an idiot" and "Awwwww poor baby" makes you the troll champ. mahahahahah!

Not really, you lose an argument so you have to make stuff up. (=

[ange7]

Not really, you lose an argument so you have to make stuff up. (=
what did a I make up? Every one of your points got hit for six :P .... then you resorted to name calling lol

[InOne]

what did a I make up? Every one of your points got hit for six :P .... then you resorted to name calling lol

You saw which bit I highlighted...

[ange7]

You saw which bit I highlighted...
yep ... and surrounding that was my argument for why it was true. Want to argue against it? We're all ears.

[InOne]

yep ... and surrounding that was my argument for why it was true. Want to argue against it? We're all ears.

Who is we?

And as usual your points are based on your own opinions, and nothing I've actually said.

[ange7]

Who is we?

And as usual your points are based on your own opinions, and nothing I've actually said.

InOne
Killin' trolls with style

hmmmmmm hehe

[InOne]

InOne
Killin' trolls with style

hmmmmmm hehe

You love it ;)

[Chilltown]

Particular Muslims ARE to blame for the 9/11 incident as Islam was the motivation behind the attacks, so to build a Muslim Mosque less than 2 blocks away from where the attack was is kind of a selfish move.

Yeah, there's freedom of speech, etc. Freedom to protest. But I think it's just insensitive and in poor taste to let the structure be built right there. 9/11 in the USA is a day that will live in infamy. The protests against it aren't an act of bigotry or hate, it's a protest of uncomfort. A LOT of people are uncomfortable with, essentially, a building being built so close to where the Trade Centers were that symbolizes the motivation of the Terrorists. So a lot of people view it as a 'spat in the face' on Americans, especially those associated to the victims of the attack.

It says one thing that the push over Liberals in charge of the country who are obsessed with making things Politically Correct to the point where we get walked all over, are letting the structure being built. But it also shows the true colors of the Muslims who are behind the construction, that they just don't care for the feelings of those who actually live in the area. It's completely selfish. Mosques can be built elsewhere, you can't change how people feel in one day. The entire situation could be easily avoided but it won't be for two reasons:

1. A lot of the Anti-Mosque protesters don't make the best case for themselves and

2. A lot of those arguing as to why the Mosque should be built, refuse to see it the opposers way, and are only concerned with what they want to do.


Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

[NettoSuperstar!]

-is thankful for being on a forum with Nettosuperstar and ange7-

some sense :love:

saying that Islam was responsible for 9/11 is like saying Shintoism is responsible for Pearl Harbor. It's just using a national tragedy to sweep up hysteria in an attempt to tarnish an institution these people don't really understand.

Your a shining beacon too my love

[Lee.]

Particular Muslims ARE to blame for the 9/11 incident as Islam was the motivation behind the attacks, so to build a Muslim Mosque less than 2 blocks away from where the attack was is kind of a selfish move.

Yeah, there's freedom of speech, etc. Freedom to protest. But I think it's just insensitive and in poor taste to let the structure be built right there. 9/11 in the USA is a day that will live in infamy. The protests against it aren't an act of bigotry or hate, it's a protest of uncomfort. A LOT of people are uncomfortable with, essentially, a building being built so close to where the Trade Centers were that symbolizes the motivation of the Terrorists. So a lot of people view it as a 'spat in the face' on Americans, especially those associated to the victims of the attack.

It says one thing that the push over Liberals in charge of the country who are obsessed with making things Politically Correct to the point where we get walked all over, are letting the structure being built. But it also shows the true colors of the Muslims who are behind the construction, that they just don't care for the feelings of those who actually live in the area. It's completely selfish. Mosques can be built elsewhere, you can't change how people feel in one day. The entire situation could be easily avoided but it won't be for two reasons:

1. A lot of the Anti-Mosque protesters don't make the best case for themselves and

2. A lot of those arguing as to why the Mosque should be built, refuse to see it the opposers way, and are only concerned with what they want to do.


Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

Yeah, this pretty much sums up how I feel about it

[InOne]

Interesting vid. These Americans are doing themselves no favours but obviously emotions are running high

2yPRl8vYXBw

[Tom4784]

Interesting vid. These Americans are doing themselves no favours but obviously emotions are running high

2yPRl8vYXBw

The man who put his son in the middle of it enraged me, that's no place for a child to be. That woman was awful too, it's not very 'american' to scream at a veteran isn't it? Ignorant bitch.

I've subscribed to the user though, I agreed with her points completely.

[InOne]

The man who put his son in the middle of it enraged me, that's no place for a child to be. That woman was awful too, it's not very 'american' to scream at a veteran isn't it? Ignorant bitch.

I've subscrubed to the user though, I agreed with her points completely.

Yeah I've watched her vids for a while, they're always really good. And grrrr that loud mouthed bitch, god knows how they kept their cool. Hate it when people bark opinions like that. And the thing was the son was awful, reminded me of a doc I watched about fundie Christians and the son was speaking and got shouted down, and the dad just stood there and let it happen.

[Harry!]

A program about the 2 Twin Tower attacts is now showing on Channel 4.

[InOne]

This thread was crazy :joker: It's a shame we don't have debates like this anymore

The Ground Zero Mosque
Director Dan Reed investigates the controversy surrounding plans to build an Islamic community centre near the former site of the World Trade Centre buildings in Manhattan. He highlights how the project has exposed tensions at the heart of American democracy, discusses the media interest surrounding it, and reveals how its spiritual leader Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf has been the target of attacks. The programme also tells the stories of families affected by the September 11 terrorist attacks who oppose the scheme


Monday 8pm on C4

[Callum]

It's still being built then?

[letmein]

Particular Muslims ARE to blame for the 9/11 incident as Islam was the motivation behind the attacks, so to build a Muslim Mosque less than 2 blocks away from where the attack was is kind of a selfish move.

Yeah, there's freedom of speech, etc. Freedom to protest. But I think it's just insensitive and in poor taste to let the structure be built right there. 9/11 in the USA is a day that will live in infamy. The protests against it aren't an act of bigotry or hate, it's a protest of uncomfort. A LOT of people are uncomfortable with, essentially, a building being built so close to where the Trade Centers were that symbolizes the motivation of the Terrorists. So a lot of people view it as a 'spat in the face' on Americans, especially those associated to the victims of the attack.

It says one thing that the push over Liberals in charge of the country who are obsessed with making things Politically Correct to the point where we get walked all over, are letting the structure being built. But it also shows the true colors of the Muslims who are behind the construction, that they just don't care for the feelings of those who actually live in the area. It's completely selfish. Mosques can be built elsewhere, you can't change how people feel in one day. The entire situation could be easily avoided but it won't be for two reasons:

1. A lot of the Anti-Mosque protesters don't make the best case for themselves and

2. A lot of those arguing as to why the Mosque should be built, refuse to see it the opposers way, and are only concerned with what they want to do.


Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

You shouldn't be making such posts if you haven't done your homework. There's already a mosque down the block, and this isn't a "Ground Zero mosque". That's a far Right wing concoction, dreamed up by bigots who wish to turn the United States Third World, and have everyone living in caves. I'd like to see no Catholic Church within a mile radius of a children's school, but constitutionally, I can't make that happen.

Americans don't play the "PC card" either, so you mustn't be American. Don't go there.

Bigotry and hate = discomfort of those who are unlike yourself.

America likes to protect its Constitution, and its laws, and these people have every right to build where they wish. The far Right needs to get over it. The majority of Americans don't care about this. It's only the far Right losers who do, and the majority of them aren't even from NY. They're bused in from Bum****, set up to cause a riot in the streets. These are the same lot that bash NY for being "elitist", and "Liberal", like that's ever been a bad thing. They want to ram their religion down everyone's throats. They see this as part of a Christian Crusade. Zionist nut case, Pamela Gellar, you know, the one the Norwegian shooter was a fan of, started this nonsense.

Thank god for Liberals, who actually made everything good in the United States. If it were up to the Right, we'd still be having witch burnings. They only react on emotion, not rationality. Americans are not suppose to wimps. These idiots are crybabies. They still believe that Iraq had something to do with 9/11 and had WMD. These are the single-digit IQ, Fox News group.

[lostalex]

It's still being built then?

It's being built on private property. The government shall make no laws respecting or condemning any religion. US Constitution.

They have every right to build it, and no one can stop them.

They bought it. They can do whatever they like with it.

[Livia]

There's a difference between legal right and moral sensitivity. Can they build it there legally? Yes. Is it a moral thing to want to do? No.

[lostalex]

There's a difference between legal right and moral sensitivity. Can they build it there legally? Yes. Is it a moral thing to want to do? No.

Well, personally I agree.

I think if i was building an Islamic cultural center, I would choose the location with a bit more sensitivity, but at the same time, some of the behavior by the protesters has disgusted me. And i would hope Americans, especially New Yorkers, will try to be as tolerant as possible.

Any violence aganist this site I think would be met with UNIVERSAL condemnation by Americans, but some people are framing the debate as if crazy racist Americans will bomb it, I don't think that will happen.

I have read comments from some jewish people online that think it should be attacked, and they talk about 9/11, and "taste of their own medicine" type stuff, but i think it's just drunk people, and i believe that when it is completed the furore over it will die down.

[Livia]

To be honest I don't know much about the protest against the Centre so I can't comment on it. Inciting people to attack it if it is built though,is both stupid and dangerous.

It is the right of every American to worship the way he wants, and to build their religious centres anywhere they want. I just question the judgement of Muslims who would want to build their centre in such a provocative place. I can't even balance this with Muslims in NY standing up after 9/11 and distancing themselves from the attrocity. I remember visiting St Paul's Church near where the twin towers stood. The tiny, ancient church was remarkably the only building in the area not damaged by the towers falling. There were photos, cards, police and fire crew badges, flags and messages of support and solidarity from all over the world. I didn't see one in arabic, or from any person or organisation that would immediately suggest an Islamic connection, although I'm told there is a vast Muslim community in the USA. So deciding to go ahead with their Centre feels like a finger up to those who died and those who lost someone.

[MTVN]

I think that calling it the "Ground Zero Mosque" is misleading and makes it sound more disrespectful than it actually is. As far as I know it isnt even going to be a mosque at all, it's an Islamic Cultural Centre and as well as that it's not even being built on Ground Zero, it's a few minutes away from there in a different place

To say it is wrong would seem to imply a lack of distinction between normal Muslims and extremists; let's not forget that 300 Muslims died in the 9/11 attacks, it wasn't Islam that was responsible

[Livia]

I think that calling it the "Ground Zero Mosque" is misleading and makes it sound more disrespectful than it actually is. As far as I know it isnt even going to be a mosque at all, it's an Islamic Cultural Centre and as well as that it's not even being built on Ground Zero, it's a few minutes away from there in a different place

To say it is wrong would seem to imply a lack of distinction between normal Muslims and extremists; let's not forget that 300 Muslims died in the 9/11 attacks, it wasn't Islam that was responsible

I think the lack of distinction came when there was no backlash from honest, decent, hardworking Muslims against the attacks.

I feel like the majority of people are always trying to be fair; they're always trying to be understanding and see others' point of view and to find a way to compromise. Though this is not something that I see Muslims trying to do.

[MTVN]

I think the lack of distinction came when there was no backlash from honest, decent, hardworking Muslims against the attacks.

I feel like the majority of people are always trying to be fair; they're always trying to be understanding and see others' point of view and to find a way to compromise. Though this is not something that I see Muslims trying to do.

I think that is a little unfair, most Islamic organisations have always condemned terrorism, if you take a look at this site (http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php) they have links to dozens of statements by various Muslim leaders/scholars/etc. condemning 9/11 and other attacks

Personally I feel there is constantly an unjustified pressure for Muslims to condemn and distance themselves from extremists, the vast majority do and are very happy to do so yet there always seems to be a perception that they're not doing enough, a criticism that doesn't seem to get levied on most other religions

[Livia]

I think that is a little unfair, most Islamic organisations have always condemned terrorism, if you take a look at this site (http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php) they have links to dozens of statements by various Muslim leaders/scholars/etc. condemning 9/11 and other attacks

Personally I feel there is constantly an unjustified pressure for Muslims to condemn and distance themselves from extremists, the vast majority do and are very happy to do so yet there always seems to be a perception that they're not doing enough, a criticism that doesn't seem to get levied on most other religions

Thanks for the link MTVN, I'll look at it...

Most other religions don't get pressured to distance themselves from terrorism because Muslim fundamentalists are undoubtedly the biggest terror group today. And because of their political touchiness, people are a little scared of them and I think that's the way they like it.

I'd like to see more Muslims come forward, people like the gentleman in Birmingham whose son was killed in the riots recently. Although he was dealing with the crushing grief of losing his son, he was so eloquent and did his community a massive service by both what he said and the way he said it. We need more like him, to win the hearts and minds of people who have only a negative image of Muslims, an image perpetuated by acts such as wanting to build a mosque on (or near) the site of the twin towers.

[Ammi]

Thanks for the link MTVN, I'll look at it...

Most other religions don't get pressured to distance themselves from terrorism because Muslim fundamentalists are undoubtedly the biggest terror group today. And because of their political touchiness, people are a little scared of them and I think that's the way they like it.

I'd like to see more Muslims come forward, people like the gentleman in Birmingham whose son was killed in the riots recently. Although he was dealing with the crushing grief of losing his son, he was so eloquent and did his community a massive service by both what he said and the way he said it. We need more like him, to win the hearts and minds of people who have only a negative image of Muslims, an image perpetuated by acts such as wanting to build a mosque on (or near) the site of the twin towers.

I agree totally with this, his actions were totally humbling and a huge ambassador for the Muslim community. I have never met a Muslim that I don't hold in very high regard and feel I could learn much from. It saddens me that this is hardly ever portrayed in the media as peoples views are very unbalanced

[MTVN]

Thanks for the link MTVN, I'll look at it...

Most other religions don't get pressured to distance themselves from terrorism because Muslim fundamentalists are undoubtedly the biggest terror group today. And because of their political touchiness, people are a little scared of them and I think that's the way they like it.

I'd like to see more Muslims come forward, people like the gentleman in Birmingham whose son was killed in the riots recently. Although he was dealing with the crushing grief of losing his son, he was so eloquent and did his community a massive service by both what he said and the way he said it. We need more like him, to win the hearts and minds of people who have only a negative image of Muslims, an image perpetuated by acts such as wanting to build a mosque on (or near) the site of the twin towers.

Yeah that's a fair point but I honestly believe the perception that Muslims don't condemn terror is a myth and it also seems to imply a collective responsibility for the acts of extremists who are very much a minority in Islam

[Livia]

Yeah that's a fair point but I honestly believe the perception that Muslims don't condemn terror is a myth and it also seems to imply a collective responsibility for the acts of extremists who are very much a minority in Islam

It's probably a media thing, like Ammi suggests. The British media, as we all know, is hardly fair and unbiased.

[lostalex]

To be honest I don't know much about the protest against the Centre so I can't comment on it. Inciting people to attack it if it is built though,is both stupid and dangerous.

It is the right of every American to worship the way he wants, and to build their religious centres anywhere they want. I just question the judgement of Muslims who would want to build their centre in such a provocative place. I can't even balance this with Muslims in NY standing up after 9/11 and distancing themselves from the attrocity. I remember visiting St Paul's Church near where the twin towers stood. The tiny, ancient church was remarkably the only building in the area not damaged by the towers falling. There were photos, cards, police and fire crew badges, flags and messages of support and solidarity from all over the world. I didn't see one in arabic, or from any person or organisation that would immediately suggest an Islamic connection, although I'm told there is a vast Muslim community in the USA. So deciding to go ahead with their Centre feels like a finger up to those who died and those who lost someone.

It's my understanding that there is about an equal number of muslims in America as jews in America. I wonder then, if there are just as many muslims in America as jews, are they equally represented? I think there is definitely not as many muslims represented in American mainstream as jews.

I read an article recently that there are actually more anti-semetic attacks on jews in the US than islamophobic attacks in the US, but I know some news papers (the guardian) try to make it seem like Muslims are suffering much racism since 9/11 in the US,. SO i found it interesting that actually there are still more anti-jew attacks in the US than anti-muslim attacks.even after 9/11.

[Livia]

It's my understanding that there is about an equal number of muslims in America as jews in America. I wonder then, if there are just as many muslims in America as jews, are they equally represented? I think there is definitely not as many muslims represented in American mainstream as jews.

I read an article recently that there are actually more anti-semetic attacks on jews in the US than islamophobic attacks in the US, but I know some news papers (the guardian) try to make it seem like Muslims are suffering much racism since 9/11 in the US,. SO i found it interesting that actually there are still more anti-jew attacks in the US than anti-muslim attacks.even after 9/11.

People attack what they don't understand, I guess.

[arista]

People attack what they don't understand, I guess.



Yes very much so.


That Site will go ahead a few paint bombs on it
and then it should go OK.

[lostalex]

People attack what they don't understand, I guess.

the way it's reported though, it seems to be drawn on political lines. It seems the left wing news tries to make muslims the victims, and the right wing press seems to make jews to be the victims. It doesn't make any sense to me especially because it's my understanding that most jewish Americans usually vote left wing politicians. (democrat).

I was glad to hear that in Israel they held protests against glenn beck, he is a prick.

It's all very confusing though. Why is the right wing in America defending jews when jews are usually left wing in America? It's all very counterintuitive.

[InOne]

On in 12 mins

Ch4

[Livia]

the way it's reported though, it seems to be drawn on political lines. It seems the left wing news tries to make muslims the victims, and the right wing press seems to make jews to be the victims. It doesn't make any sense to me especially because it's my understanding that most jewish Americans usually vote left wing politicians. (democrat).

I was glad to hear that in Israel they held protests against glenn beck, he is a prick.

It's all very confusing though. Why is the right wing in America defending jews when jews are usually left wing in America? It's all very counterintuitive.

Wish I could throw some light on the whole left wing/right wing Jews in the USA thing, but I'd just be making it up. I feel sure that different groups are portrayed as victims whenever it suits the press agenda.

Re: Glenn Beck - I agree with your summing up.

[InOne]

2 mins, Happy watching ^_^

[Marc]

I'm being very lazy; is this still happening? What happened to the idea? Was it a silly rumour?

[InOne]

Well it seems a really small scale thing now. They're all arguing and they can't really get the money together, all the protesting really shook them. And I had a feeling it would be some eager convert behind it, they are always the worst :bored:

[keithafc]

Why do they want to build it new ground zero anyway?

[Grimnir]

mosque at ground zero would be a perfect place for radical fundamentalists to set up a bin laden shrine for his birthday

wonder if there would be any protests if that happened?

[InOne]

Why do they want to build it new ground zero anyway?

Because they can basically.

[arista]

Plus they own the land its on.