Caoimhe the name.

[StGeorge]

When i first saw Caoimhe's name i was pronouncing it Kay-oi-me.
But then i found out it is pronounced Kee-va, and wonder how such variance on the spelling is acheived?

It's the same with Padraig ( Pad-raig) being pronounced as Poric, and Siobahn (Si-O-barn) being pronounced as Sha-vorn.

Is there some sort of grammer rule here that can be used to ascertain other similar spellings, or is it just a matter of an interpretation?

[Niamh.]

It's in Irish which is a different language, that's why. There is no letter V in the Irish langauge and so mh together are pronounced like a V, see my username Niamh is pronounced Nee-av. It is not in English so different rules apply

[Jordan.]

Everytime i read her name i still pronouce it in my head as Kay-oi-me. :laugh:

[Niamh.]

Everytime i read her name i still pronouce it in my head as Kay-oi-me. :laugh:

we actually pronounce it more like Kwee-va rather than Kee-va

[MojoNixon]

When i first saw Caoimhe's name i was pronouncing it Kay-oi-me.
But then i found out it is pronounced Kee-va, and wonder how such variance on the spelling is acheived?

It's the same with Padraig ( Pad-raig) being pronounced as Poric, and Siobahn (Si-O-barn) being pronounced as Sha-vorn.

Is there some sort of grammer rule here that can be used to ascertain other similar spellings, or is it just a matter of an interpretation?

Camho will be just fine.

[Big Brother Fan]

I agree with NojoMixon

[StGeorge]

It's in Irish which is a different language, that's why. There is no letter V in the Irish langauge and so mh together are pronounced like a V, see my username Niamh is pronounced Nee-av. It is not in English so different rules apply

Thats what i thought, but then i wonder how letters mean one thing in one language and something else in another? Surely when letters, in the form we know now, had a certain meaning when they were first used? By that, i mean that Germans speak a different language, but the pronunciation of the words is similar to how an English speaker would say them. Although their use of V and W gets mixed up.
A similar thing is the mix up of the oriental use of L and R. Now ive always thought that the original translation from the oriental characters was perhaps wrong, and that L and R got mixed and has stuck ever since. But can this be said of Irish to English? Do the Irish have their own characters to represent certain letters? By this i mean that as the Irish doesnt have a letter V..why/who where/when was it decided mh was a valid substitute?

[StGeorge]

we actually pronounce it more like Kwee-va rather than Kee-va

Er..why..what is the ruling there?

BTW..this isnt a pisstake as its always interested me, and thanks for your insight Niamhxo.

[Niamh.]

Thats what i thought, but then i wonder how letters mean one thing in one language and something else in another? Surely when letters, in the form we know now, had a certain meaning when they were first used? By that, i mean that Germans speak a different language, but the pronunciation of the words is similar to how an English speaker would say them. Although their use of V and W gets mixed up.
A similar thing is the mix up of the oriental use of L and R. Now ive always thought that the original translation from the oriental characters was perhaps wrong, and that L and R got mixed and has stuck ever since. But can this be said of Irish to English? Do the Irish have their own characters to represent certain letters? By this i mean that as the Irish doesnt have a letter V..why/who where/when was it decided mh was a valid substitute?

Well we only have 18 letters in our alphabet, generally speaking they are pronounced as they would be in English except for the ones that needed to be compensated for like V. And as for who made it up? I have no idea :joker: I doubt it was considered a substitute for anything in comparison to English as I presume languages aren't made up as a substitute to other languages, If you get what I mean?

[Niamh.]

Er..why..what is the ruling there?

BTW..this isnt a pisstake as its always interested me, and thanks for your insight Niamhxo.

It's just the way that I've and everyone I know has always pronounced that particular name

[Big Brother Fan]

It's a matter of pronunciation of the language. Like English, Irish has loads of dialects and is open to different pronunciations. I would pronounce it Kwee-va as well.

[Jessica.]

Thats what i thought, but then i wonder how letters mean one thing in one language and something else in another? Surely when letters, in the form we know now, had a certain meaning when they were first used? By that, i mean that Germans speak a different language, but the pronunciation of the words is similar to how an English speaker would say them. Although their use of V and W gets mixed up.
A similar thing is the mix up of the oriental use of L and R. Now ive always thought that the original translation from the oriental characters was perhaps wrong, and that L and R got mixed and has stuck ever since. But can this be said of Irish to English? Do the Irish have their own characters to represent certain letters? By this i mean that as the Irish doesnt have a letter V..why/who where/when was it decided mh was a valid substitute?

German pronunciation is not that much similar to English at all, I studied German for five years and almost every letter of the German alphabet has a different sound to the same letter in English.

Irish is a language too, there are lots of Irish names, it might be a bit difficult to know them first go but it's not an impossible task. Irish has a different alphabet with ten vowels, many of the letters are pronounced differently to in English like in any language, it's not that difficult.

[Niamh.]

oh yeah Shiobhan is pronounced Shiv-awn because BH together also makes a V sound

[Crimson Dynamo]

Dont listen to the Irish as they cannot even agree what their country or countries is called

lol

[Niamh.]

Dont listen to the Irish as they cannot even agree what their country or countries is called

lol

Excuse me?

[Jessica.]

Dont listen to the Irish as they cannot even agree what their country or countries is called

lol

:conf:

[Big Brother Fan]

Dont listen to the Irish as they cannot even agree what their country or countries is called

lol

You should change your location to deep, deep up your own arse

[p3bbl3z]

Its the same with Welsh, we don't have certain letters like X, Z. But we have extra letters :D like ll, th, ch, ng.
Certain letters produce a different pronounciation too:
ll = cll.... so Llys would be pronouced Cllys.

[StGeorge]

You should change your location to deep, deep up your own arse

Is that sent with an mh or bh sign :joker:

[Rob]

lol, i dunno how they came across that spelling!

[Niamh.]

Is that sent with an mh or bh sign :joker:

:laugh2:

[Niamh.]

lol, i dunno how they came across that spelling!

Who?

[Jessica.]

Who?

I don't think they know that Ireland has its own language. :shocked:

[MojoNixon]

Pronounce goes = Kwanzaa

[StGeorge]

German pronunciation is not that much similar to English at all, I studied German for five years and almost every letter of the German alphabet has a different sound to the same letter in English.

Irish is a language too, there are lots of Irish names, it might be a bit difficult to know them first go but it's not an impossible task. Irish has a different alphabet with ten vowels, many of the letters are pronounced differently to in English like in any language, it's not that difficult.


I get what your saying Jessica, but if i read German out of a book, my pronunciation is very near spot on....except for the V and W type mix. So with the recognised (usually) mix of V and W, it can generally be accepted that WHAT is pronounced VOT for example.
I know the rule in language translation is not an exact science, but how some rules are translated confuses me. My missus is Thai and trust me..trying to work out the pronunciation of their language..when the letters are there in front of me..is a head-banger.:conf:

[Crimson Dynamo]

I don't think they know that Ireland has its own language. :shocked:

yeah and everyone is speaking it

oh no hang on


no one is:shocked:


you all speak English as that is who your boss country speak:xyxwave:

[Jessica.]

I get what your saying Jessica, but if i read German out of a book, my pronunciation is very near spot on....except for the V and W type mix. So with the recognised (usually) mix of V and W, it can generally be accepted that WHAT is pronounced VOT for example.
I know the rule in language translation is not an exact science, but how some rules are translated confuses me. My missus is Thai and trust me..trying to work out the pronunciation of their language..when the letters are there in front of me..is a head-banger.:conf:

:|
I will give you some examples
For the v sound
English: v
German: w
Irish: mh/bh

For the sh sound
English: sh
German: sch
Irish: s

Do you get it?

[Jessica.]

yeah and everyone is speaking it

oh no hang on


no one is:shocked:


you all speak English as that is who your boss country speak:xyxwave:

We don't have a boss country you freak.

[Crimson Dynamo]

We don't have a boss country you freak.

its that kind of insubordination that leads to sanctions

[StGeorge]

yeah and everyone is speaking it

oh no hang on


no one is:shocked:


you all speak English as that is who your boss country speak:xyxwave:

Well, as it happens, thats where your wrong and the confusion sets in.

The Irish, or more to the point, Celts..do have their own language....like just about most nations in the world. But my point is that when these different cultures originally converged, who decided that the translation from the symbols/characters/letters to anothers had such a variance on the sound?

EG: There is no V in Irish, but when the original Irish symbol (probably from the Ogham Alphabet) was tanslated as a sound, why wasnt the English symbol for V used?

[Niamh.]

I get what your saying Jessica, but if i read German out of a book, my pronunciation is very near spot on....except for the V and W type mix. So with the recognised (usually) mix of V and W, it can generally be accepted that WHAT is pronounced VOT for example.
I know the rule in language translation is not an exact science, but how some rules are translated confuses me. My missus is Thai and trust me..trying to work out the pronunciation of their language..when the letters are there in front of me..is a head-banger.:conf:

Well German would be more similar to English than Irish to English as they come from the same family - Germanic

[Crimson Dynamo]

Well, as it happens, thats where your wrong and the confusion sets in.

The Irish, or more to the point, Celts..do have their own language....like just about most nations in the world. But my point is that when these different cultures originally converged, who decided that the translation from the symbols/characters/letters to anothers had such a variance on the sound?

EG: There is no V in Irish, but when the original Irish symbol (probably from the Ogham Alphabet) was tanslated as a sound, why wasnt the English symbol for V used?

Well I recall giving the V sign to a group of Irish Celtic supporters and you should have heard the abuse I got

next time they will get the mh

from both hands

[Niamh.]

Well, as it happens, thats where your wrong and the confusion sets in.

The Irish, or more to the point, Celts..do have their own language....like just about most nations in the world. But my point is that when these different cultures originally converged, who decided that the translation from the symbols/characters/letters to anothers had such a variance on the sound?

EG: There is no V in Irish, but when the original Irish symbol (probably from the Ogham Alphabet) was tanslated as a sound, why wasnt the English symbol for V used?

because they're just different I suppose, like when you translate Irish to English, If you literally translated every word it wouldn't make much sense eg.

Niamh is anim dom means Niamh is my name but word for word to English it means Niamh is name mine

[Big Brother Fan]

Urrrgh, I'm sick of all the Neo-Nazi freaks on here

[StGeorge]

:|
I will give you some examples
For the v sound
English: v
German: w
Irish: mh/bh

For the sh sound
English: sh
German: sch
Irish: s

Do you get it?

Yes i do Jessica, but the bit i dont get is that if for example, the Irish had their own symbols which formed words which when pronounced gave a certain sound....why then was that sound not translated exactly when converted to the symbols that the English speakers used?

Do you understand where my area of learning is trying to come from?

BTW dont bother responding to the numpties as its fuel on their fire. That's how decent serious discussions like this are spoilt....just ignore it.

[Niamh.]

Yes i do Jessica, but the bit i dont get is that if for example, the Irish had their own symbols which formed words which when pronounced gave a certain sound....why then was that sound not translated exactly when converted to the symbols that the English speakers used?

Do you understand where my area of learning is trying to come from?

BTW dont bother responding to the numpties as its fuel on their fire. That's how decent serious discussions like this are spoilt....just ignore it.

I don't quite understand what you mean there? How do you mean translated for English speakers?

[Niamh.]

Urrrgh, I'm sick of all the Neo-Nazi freaks on here

just ignore them, not worth getting into another long winded getting no where scenario again!

[Big Brother Fan]

English no doubt has a slight influence on modern Irish.

But Irish didn't decend from Anglo-Saxon or anything like that, so developed differently.

[Niamh.]

There are Irish names that have been modified alright like Maeve was originally spelled Maebh but alot of people do still use the original spelling too. Also Neve (see Neve Campbell) is a modified version of my name:hugesmile:

[StGeorge]

because they're just different I suppose, like when you translate Irish to English, If you literally translated every word it wouldn't make much sense eg.

Niamh is anim dom means Niamh is my name but word for word to English it means Niamh is name mine

I appreciate that Nianhxo, but its the pronunciation of the letters/symbols that i see as representing my language that the confusion arises. If you were to say that Niamh is anim dom was pronounced Ne-am is an-im dom then in what order or meaning is not the issue, as our pronunciation as per my reading of those symbols would be pretty much the same.

Difference in pronunciation should follow certain rules, eg:

Machine could be -

Mac-hin-e(sounds like tinny) or Mac-hine(sounds like wine) or as it is generally known Ma-sheen.

When it comes out sounding like something completly different then where did the original translation go wrong?

[Niamh.]

I appreciate that Nianhxo, but its the pronunciation of the letters/symbols that i see as representing my language that the confusion arises. If you were to say that Niamh is anim dom was pronounced Ne-am is an-im dom then in what order or meaning is not the issue, as our pronunciation as per my reading of those symbols would be pretty much the same.

Difference in pronunciation should follow certain rules, eg:

Machine could be -

Mac-hin-e(sounds like tinny) or Mac-hine(sounds like wine) or as it is generally known Ma-sheen.

When it comes out sounding like something completly different then where did the original translation go wrong?

I still don't really get what you mean at all, Irish was spoken in Ireland by Irish people so it wouldn't have needed to relate to English?

[Big Brother Fan]

Yeah mh/bh doesn't sound like a 'm' just for the sake of English, it just happend to be that way

[Jessica.]

Yes i do Jessica, but the bit i dont get is that if for example, the Irish had their own symbols which formed words which when pronounced gave a certain sound....why then was that sound not translated exactly when converted to the symbols that the English speakers used?

Do you understand where my area of learning is trying to come from?

BTW dont bother responding to the numpties as its fuel on their fire. That's how decent serious discussions like this are spoilt....just ignore it.

I understand what you are saying but most languages just don't work like that. Irish is a very complicated language, it began as a very primitive language and progressed as with every other language. Irish people didn't start speaking English naturally though, it was forced on us, therefore the Irish language didn't have a chance to develop into what it would have. I think many people choose Irish names for their children as a dedication to the language and as a way of trying to keep it alive.

[StGeorge]

I don't quite understand what you mean there? How do you mean translated for English speakers?

I have been looking on the web, and found that Irish probably descended from a language that used symbols called the Ogham(?) Alphabet. Its the same thing with the Chinese letters/symbols being completely different to what i would say is English letters for example ..A, B, C...
Those Ogham letters were translated to English letters and i think that it is there that the original problems occur which give us this anomaly.

Is that clearer..in a confusing way lol.

[StGeorge]

I don't quite understand what you mean there? How do you mean translated for English speakers?

I have been looking on the web, and found that Irish probably descended from a language that used symbols called the Ogham(?) Alphabet. Its the same thing with the Chinese letters/symbols being completely different to what i would say is English letters for example ..A, B, C...
Those Ogham letters were translated to English letters and i think that it is there that the original problems occur which give us this anomaly.

Is that clearer..in a confusing way lol.

[Jessica.]

I have been looking on the web, and found that Irish probably descended from a language that used symbols called the Ogham(?) Alphabet. Its the same thing with the Chinese letters/symbols being completely different to what i would say is English letters for example ..A, B, C...
Those Ogham letters were translated to English letters and i think that it is there that the original problems occur which give us this anomaly.

Is that clearer..in a confusing way lol.

Yes but the English characters were just used as an alternative to the symbols, it wasn't supposed to have English pronunciation because it's not the English language.

[Niamh.]

I have been looking on the web, and found that Irish probably descended from a language that used symbols called the Ogham(?) Alphabet. Its the same thing with the Chinese letters/symbols being completely different to what i would say is English letters for example ..A, B, C...
Those Ogham letters were translated to English letters and i think that it is there that the original problems occur which give us this anomaly.

Is that clearer..in a confusing way lol.

ah ok, I do get what you mean now, I don't know why it was done this way but it was the way it was done! As a Welsh person pointed out earlier they also have similar things in their language and I think Welsh would come from the same family as Irish in language terms. But like it was also pointed out other languages do things like that as well Spanish for example pronounce V as a B. H in Spanish is silent

[Big Brother Fan]

Irish and Welsh are both Celtic languages so they are slightly related

[StGeorge]

Yes but the English characters were just used as an alternative to the symbols, it wasn't supposed to have English pronunciation because it's not the English language.

It doesnt have to have English pronunciation....the Ogham symbols would be pronounced as the Irish would say it....but when they were then copied/translated from Ogham to English symbols ( a, b, c, etc) why was the English symbols not used to give the same sound?

So..the Ogham symbol for the sound which gives Vee, would be translated to the English symbol which gives Vee, which is V.
What numpty..back in the day..in a place far far away....oops sorry, thats another story....translated the Ogham alphabet to the English alphabet and buggered it all up?

[Big Brother Fan]

Because it went from Ogham to written Gaeilge ages before English was brought here

[StGeorge]

Going home now ladies....thanks for your help/understanding, and chat in awhile.

[Jessica.]

It doesnt have to have English pronunciation....the Ogham symbols would be pronounced as the Irish would say it....but when they were then copied/translated from Ogham to English symbols ( a, b, c, etc) why was the English symbols not used to give the same sound?

So..the Ogham symbol for the sound which gives Vee, would be translated to the English symbol which gives Vee, which is V.
What numpty..back in the day..in a place far far away....oops sorry, thats another story....translated the Ogham alphabet to the English alphabet and buggered it all up?

Because it's not English..

[StGeorge]

Because it's not English..

Er..what isnt..sorry i have gone off the plot whilst coming home?

[StGeorge]

Because it went from Ogham to written Gaeilge ages before English was brought here

It's interesting you say that BBF as i think it's the metamorphosis of both the original written Irish and the original written English that has meant these anomalies have evolved.

Here is a brief history of Irish:

Written Irish is first attested in Ogham inscriptions from the fourth century AD; this stage of the language is known as Primitive Irish. These writings have been found throughout Ireland and the west coast of Great Britain. Primitive Irish transitioned into Old Irish through the 5th century. Old Irish, dating from the sixth century, used the Latin alphabet and is attested primarily in marginalia to Latin manuscripts. By the 10th century Old Irish evolved into Middle Irish, which was spoken throughout Ireland and in Scotland and the Isle of Man. It is the language of a large corpus of literature, including the famous Ulster Cycle. From the 12th century Middle Irish began to evolve into modern Irish in Ireland, into Scottish Gaelic in Scotland, and into the Manx language in the Isle of Man. Early Modern Irish, dating from the thirteenth century, was the literary language of both Ireland and Gaelic-speaking Scotland, and is attested by such writers as Geoffrey Keating. Modern Irish emerged from the literary language known as Early Modern Irish in Ireland and as Classical Gaelic in Scotland; this was used through the 18th century.

If you look up how the written English evolved, it goes through pretty much the same variations over time.

[Oooo_get_her]

It doesnt have to have English pronunciation....the Ogham symbols would be pronounced as the Irish would say it....but when they were then copied/translated from Ogham to English symbols ( a, b, c, etc) why was the English symbols not used to give the same sound?

So..the Ogham symbol for the sound which gives Vee, would be translated to the English symbol which gives Vee, which is V.
What numpty..back in the day..in a place far far away....oops sorry, thats another story....translated the Ogham alphabet to the English alphabet and buggered it all up?

Irish is actually an older language than English and Irish monks had a great deal of contact with Latin (what with writing out bibles and preserving Latin culture through the Dark Ages) and THAT is where the Irish language came into contact with the Latin Alphabet - not via English.

If you are interested and have a few moments have a read of this:

http://www.spellingsociety.org/journals/j22/irish.php

[Ketman]

Well, as it happens, thats where your wrong and the confusion sets in.

The Irish, or more to the point, Celts..do have their own language....like just about most nations in the world. But my point is that when these different cultures originally converged, who decided that the translation from the symbols/characters/letters to anothers had such a variance on the sound?

EG: There is no V in Irish, but when the original Irish symbol (probably from the Ogham Alphabet) was tanslated as a sound, why wasnt the English symbol for V used?

You're right. The only way you can transcribe a word into another alphabet is phonetically - i.e. you write what it sounds like. That's especially true with alphabets that are very dissimilar, like the Roman and Cyrillic alphabets. Sound is all you've got. That's why it drives me nuts when you get a Russian name like Gorbachev, and then they tell you it's pronounced Gorbachov. I'm thinking, why didn't you write it Gorbachov in the first place, you nutjob!

[StGeorge]

Irish is actually an older language than English and Irish monks had a great deal of contact with Latin (what with writing out bibles and preserving Latin culture through the Dark Ages) and THAT is where the Irish language came into contact with the Latin Alphabet - not via English.

If you are interested and have a few moments have a read of this:

http://www.spellingsociety.org/journals/j22/irish.php

That just about nails it on the head....the anomalies of pronounciation over spelling were recognised way back. We still have them, but it is generally associated with what i would call old Irish names etc.

Thanks for that Oooo....very helpful.

[Nemo123]

I appreciate that Nianhxo, but its the pronunciation of the letters/symbols that i see as representing my language that the confusion arises. If you were to say that Niamh is anim dom was pronounced Ne-am is an-im dom then in what order or meaning is not the issue, as our pronunciation as per my reading of those symbols would be pretty much the same.

Difference in pronunciation should follow certain rules, eg:

Machine could be -

Mac-hin-e(sounds like tinny) or Mac-hine(sounds like wine) or as it is generally known Ma-sheen.

When it comes out sounding like something completly different then where did the original translation go wrong?

You know how cockneys say, that's smashin', that's actually an anglicanisation of the Irish, is maith sin, which literally means, that's great

[StGeorge]

You're right. The only way you can transcribe a word into another alphabet is phonetically - i.e. you write what it sounds like. That's especially true with alphabets that are very dissimilar, like the Roman and Cyrillic alphabets. Sound is all you've got. That's why it drives me nuts when you get a Russian name like Gorbachev, and then they tell you it's pronounced Gorbachov. I'm thinking, why didn't you write it Gorbachov in the first place, you nutjob!

That is my point Ketman, but if you look at that piece i highlighted on the History of the Irish language, and also at the piece Oooo has linked, then you see that both languages have changed in the written formed many times and it has been a bit of a bind for the scholars to keep up and to make sense of differing interpretations.

Facinating stuff( boring to some i guess, and not exactly BB) and thanks to those that contributed in an intelligent manner.

[StGeorge]

You know how cockneys say, that's smashin', that's actually an anglicanisation of the Irish, is maith sin, which literally means, that's great

But how would is maith sin be pronounced?

If we say for arguments sake that the letters/symbols A, B, C etc were English....then my point is that how come those English symbols sound differently?

If is maith sin is pronounced is may-th sin, then it's not a good example of what i mean. But if for example it does literally pronounce as that's smashin, then can you see where i disagree with the original translation?

[Oooo_get_her]

That just about nails it on the head....the anomalies of pronounciation over spelling were recognised way back. We still have them, but it is generally associated with what i would call old Irish names etc.

Thanks for that Oooo....very helpful.

Most welcome. :blush:

[Shasown]

Early written languages were done using runes, its from these runes most (but not all) modern letters are derived, however there will always be differences in languages because of local factors, the difference between English and Irish alphabets can be explained by the fact of both Roman (Latin) and Saxon influences on the English language as opposed to the almost pure original Irish.

Old English as in Celtic would have been very similar to Irish/Scottish - Gaelic. And Welsh - Celtic.

[Nemo123]

But how would is maith sin be pronounced?

If we say for arguments sake that the letters/symbols A, B, C etc were English....then my point is that how come those English symbols sound differently?

If is maith sin is pronounced is may-th sin, then it's not a good example of what i mean. But if for example it does literally pronounce as that's smashin, then can you see where i disagree with the original translation?

I should have not put that's, I should just have wrote, smashin'.

Is (S), maith (ma), sin (shin).

[Oooo_get_her]

Old English as in Celtic would have been very similar to Irish/Scottish - Gaelic. And Welsh - Celtic.

Sorry - I don't understand.

Old English is a Germanic language and not at all related to Irish or Scots Gaelic*, which belong to one branch of the Celtic language family. Welsh is, of course, a Celtic language, but it is from a different branch of the Celtic 'tree' and is quite different.

Yes - the people of what is now England were Celts before the Anglo-Saxons became dominant, but their language is never referred to as Old English. Old English is an Anglo-Saxon thing - see Beowulf.

* bar as an Indo European language, both Celtic and Germanic being descendants of Proto-Indo-European

[StGeorge]

I should have not put that's, I should just have wrote, smashin'.

Is (S), maith (ma), sin (shin).

Bloody hell..i see what you mean now as the comparison.

[Nemo123]

I've noticed the Irish word for work, obair, is almost identical to the Portuguese word.

But Irish has alwas been evolving and taking words from other languages when it doesn't already have one.

[StGeorge]

Sorry - I don't understand.

Old English is a Germanic language and not at all related to Irish or Scots Gaelic*, which belong to one branch of the Celtic language family. Welsh is, of course, a Celtic language, but it is from a different branch of the Celtic 'tree' and is quite different.

Yes - the people of what is now England were Celts before the Anglo-Saxons became dominant, but their language is never referred to as Old English. Old English is an Anglo-Saxon thing - see Beowulf.

* bar as an Indo European language, both Celtic and Germanic being descendants of Proto-Indo-European

Oooo is correct, and if you look up the English written language, i beleive Chaucers Canterbury Tales was one of the first forms of a universal English language that was able to be read by the masses, (if you knew a bookstore :hugesmile:), and was known as Middle English. But even that piece of works is unrecognisable in its original form to todays language.

Oooo.
The more i read your link the better it gets, and i say to anyone who has the same inquisitiveness as me, it is the piece to read.
This gets me though:

While problems of discrepancies still continue to exist, one must recognize that great strides have already been made.
and
the spelling system of Irish will still have to undergo revision before it will be completely acceptable and satisfactory.

Personally i dont think there needs to be a change in how Irish is spelt/spoke, as long as the Irish understand and accept it, (like Jessica & Niamhxo do) and that there is an understanding and acceptance when unknowledgeable folk like me mis-pronounce someones Irish spelt name. I say this because it was the mis-pronunciation of a blokes tattoo spelling of his wifes name Siobhan that first introduced me to this anomaly. His reaction was way over the top and was if i was being rude for not knowing. Duh get a life mate i thought.

[StGeorge]

I've noticed the Irish word for work, obair, is almost identical to the Portuguese word.

But Irish has alwas been evolving and taking words from other languages when it doesn't already have one.

Blimey..you can definately say that for English....its full of various foreign words that were left behind by whatever invading force and adopted by the natives.

[Nemo123]

My little pet hate is how English pronounciation of Irish surnames like Moran, Keogh, Keown, and more, always seem to add an extra syllable - like More-ran, Key-ooh, Key-own. Moran is pronounced Mor'n. And Keogh like Tim Yeo, the politician, and Keown is one syllable too.

[bansheewails]

Doherty, in Donegal is pronounced Dor-tee, but else where is doc-er-ty!

[Shasown]

Blimey..you can definately say that for English....its full of various foreign words that were left behind by whatever invading force and adopted by the natives.

Yes the English certainly are a bastard race

[StGeorge]

My little pet hate is how English pronounciation of Irish surnames like Moran, Keogh, Keown, and more, always seem to add an extra syllable - like More-ran, Key-ooh, Key-own. Moran is pronounced Mor'n. And Keogh like Tim Yeo, the politician, and Keown is one syllable too.

Unfortunately some words sound the same spelt whatever way you say it.

Mor (moor) sounds like More (moor) i cant see how it can sound different.

Therefore Moran isnt More-an But Moor-an and actually comes out Moor-ran.

Unless you're saying it is in fact Mo-ran?

Mor'n sounds like Morn but is still beginning with Moor as in Moor-n.

[Shasown]

The interesting point to be noted from the house is the wankers who mispronounced her name wont have seen it wrote down, they would have heard how it was pronounced from her when she introduced herself, so there is really no excuse for them?

[StGeorge]

The interesting point to be noted from the house is the wankers who mispronounced her name wont have seen it wrote down, they would have heard how it was pronounced from her when she introduced herself, so there is really no excuse for them?

That in itself is inexcusable and shows their ignorance.

[Stacey.]

in my head it's still ki-oma.

[bansheewails]

in my head it's still ki-oma.

My friends daughter name is Kaoma, which is alaskian eskimo apparently!

[Niamh.]

Do you know what used to always annoy me, the way ye pronounce Gallagher, it's pronounced Galla-her here but ye pronounce it Galla-ger

[Oooo_get_her]

That gets my goat, too, Niamh. Galla-gur and McGraTH, with the 'th' pronounced.

It's McGraH!

[Nemo123]

Unfortunately some words sound the same spelt whatever way you say it.

Mor (moor) sounds like More (moor) i cant see how it can sound different.

Therefore Moran isnt More-an But Moor-an and actually comes out Moor-ran.

Unless you're saying it is in fact Mo-ran?

Mor'n sounds like Morn but is still beginning with Moor as in Moor-n.

Kevin Moran,for example, is pronounced More 'n, there's like a half a vowel between the More and the n, so that it sounds closer to Morn. Just the hint of a vowel between the Mor and the n.

It's truncated, but the English make 2 separate syllables, with the emphasis on the second syllable, ran. More-RAN, and subjugate the first syllable.

[Niamh.]

That gets my goat, too, Niamh. Galla-gur and McGraTH, with the 'th' pronounced.

It's McGraH!

oh yeah lol that too. McElderry too like that guy who won X-Factor I would pronounce Mac-il-Derry where as they pronounced it Mac-Eldry

[Nemo123]

Dublin is an anglicanisation of Dubh Linn, (pronounced Dove Linn),meaning black pool.

[StGeorge]

Kevin Moran,for example, is pronounced More 'n, there's like a half a vowel between the More and the n, so that it sounds closer to Morn. Just the hint of a vowel between the Mor and the n.

It's truncated, but the English make 2 separate syllables, with the emphasis on the second syllable, ran. More-RAN, and subjugate the first syllable.

Its not that the English choose to make these mistakes in pronouncing names wrong, but that most of us say it as we see it. This is the point of my whole thread and that there has to be an acceptance and understanding that different interpretations of the same letters is going to happen, and annoyance is just as bad as the original mis-pronunciation.

Unless a person is told that G is silent, then how are they supposed to know?

Your original point was about Moran being pronounced More-ran....and i took it that you meant the adding of the E. But if you are saying that its the ending 'N being turned into ran, then that is just a natural way the word runs and can be seen in other words. The only way for the uneducated to know is if the name was hyphernated(sp?) as in Mor-n or Mor'n.
An example is Arab
Its not A-rab or Ar-b or Ar'b....its Ar-rab or to be more precise to their pronunciation..Ar-rub.

[Nemo123]

Steve More-RAN was an English footballer, as was Martin Key-own. So, who's to say who's right and who's wrong, although they are Irish surnames. Call it a regional difference.

[StGeorge]

oh yeah lol that too. McElderry too like that guy who won X-Factor I would pronounce Mac-il-Derry where as they pronounced it Mac-Eldry

I pronounce it as it looks....Mac-el-derry.
McEldry would be Mac-el-dree.

[Niamh.]

I pronounce it as it looks....Mac-el-derry.
McEldry would be Mac-el-dree.

I pronounce it the same as you then, they were all pronouncing it like Mac-el-dree on X-Factor though

[StGeorge]

Steve More-RAN was an English footballer, as was Martin Key-own. So, who's to say who's right and who's wrong, although they are Irish surnames. Call it a regional difference.

Thats very true.

My surname ends in Tare.

Lets see how the Irish amongst you pronounce that?

[Niamh.]

Thats very true.

My surname ends in Tare.

Lets see how the Irish amongst you pronounce that?

Tare, like T-air?

[StGeorge]

I pronounce it the same as you then, they were all pronouncing it like Mac-el-dree on X-Factor though

Im sorry Niamh but yes there are some numpties over here who cant even pronounce someones name correct even when told again and again....but please dont generalise us all, as some of us just say as seen and try to adjust.
You must admit that Caoimhe to an English speaker is in no way Keeva.
But for someone to then call Keeva Cay-oim-he to her face would be just plain rude.

[Nemo123]

Thats very true.

My surname ends in Tare.

Lets see how the Irish amongst you pronounce that?

Have to see the whole name, could be Indian or something exotic.

[Niamh.]

Im sorry Niamh but yes there are some numpties over here who cant even pronounce someones name correct even when told again and again....but please dont generalise us all, as some of us just say as seen and try to adjust.
You must admit that Caoimhe to an English speaker is in no way Keeva.
But for someone to then call Keeva Cay-oim-he to her face would be just plain rude.

Oh of course I wouldn't expect anyone who is not familiar with Irish or Irish names to have a clue how to pronounce it!

[Nemo123]

Caoi, pronounced kwee, means mist. MH is v, and e is eh or a.

Caoimhe, as I just looked it up,means gentle, gracful, beautiful.

Well-named, I don't think so.

[StGeorge]

Tare, like T-air?

Blimey Niamh..it looks like you and i speak the same language. lol.

Tair (as in Bare, Bear, Fair) is how we do it..but it could also be T-are as in Tar....or Tair-re.
Its Italian, and they pronounce it Tar-re.

So who is correct?

I wouldnt be if i got annoyed at the everyday attempts i get, but i would if i had to correct the same people again and again.

[ElProximo]

If Quetzacoatl wants her name to sound like 'Kevin' then her parents ought to have done so or else don't bother using English letters in the first place!

[Oooo_get_her]

If Quetzacoatl wants her name to sound like 'Kevin' then her parents ought to have done so or else don't bother using English letters in the first place!

I remember you from when I was here last year. You are a troll.

I will not rise to your baiting - I hope others won't either.

[Niamh.]

Blimey Niamh..it looks like you and i speak the same language. lol.

Tair (as in Bare, Bear, Fair) is how we do it..but it could also be T-are as in Tar....or Tair-re.
Its Italian, and they pronounce it Tar-re.

So who is correct?

I wouldnt be if i got annoyed at the everyday attempts i get, but i would if i had to correct the same people again and again.

Yes it could, I don't think anyone is getting annoyed or expecting people to just know about Irish names and how they're pronounced if that's thepoint you're trying to make?

[Niamh.]

If Quetzacoatl wants her name to sound like 'Kevin' then her parents ought to have done so or else don't bother using English letters in the first place!

*yawns*

[Orvakki]

Well to start with it's a miracle you can type it.

[Nemo123]

correction,caoi means manner. Ceo is mist.

[StGeorge]

If Quetzacoatl wants her name to sound like 'Kevin' then her parents ought to have done so or else don't bother using English letters in the first place!

Although i have used the term English to describe A, B, C etc....i believe that these symbols are in fact from ancient script and have been derived from Roman times perhaps. Im not sure. But i dont think the English own those letters.
So if you take what has been said previous with Irish being translated via Latin etc..its not a straight forward answer to say its all because of Irish to English.

Check out Oooo's link as its very good.

[Niamh.]

Although i have used the term English to describe A, B, C etc....i believe that these symbols are in fact from ancient script and have been derived from Roman times perhaps. Im not sure. But i dont think the English own those letters.
So if you take what has been said previous with Irish being translated via Latin etc..its not a straight forward answer to say its all because of Irish to English.

Check out Oooo's link as its very good.

I really don't think he has any interest other than to insult us tbh

[StGeorge]

Yes it could, I don't think anyone is getting annoyed or expecting people to just know about Irish names and how they're pronounced if that's thepoint you're trying to make?

You did say Gallagher got you annoyed once.

[LiquidGold]

When i first saw Caoimhe's name i was pronouncing it Kay-oi-me.
But then i found out it is pronounced Kee-va, and wonder how such variance on the spelling is acheived?

It's the same with Padraig ( Pad-raig) being pronounced as Poric, and Siobahn (Si-O-barn) being pronounced as Sha-vorn.

Is there some sort of grammer rule here that can be used to ascertain other similar spellings, or is it just a matter of an interpretation?

irish spelling is always proper weird! i have to keep checking her name spelling if im going to write about her in this forum :joker: . remember orlaith from bb6 but it was pronounced orlah haha :conf:

[Niamh.]

You did say Gallagher got you annoyed once.

oh lol, not in a serious way though, in the shout at the TV but they can't hear you kind of way!:joker:

[Nemo123]

How old is the English language?

[StGeorge]

I really don't think he has any interest other than to insult us tbh

Yeah i guess, but its to be expected on here and im surprised at the response i have got for what was just an inquisitive question. I did expect more trolls and then some sort of racist biggoted slanging match.

[Oooo_get_her]

Yes it could, I don't think anyone is getting annoyed or expecting people to just know about Irish names and how they're pronounced if that's thepoint you're trying to make?

Well no - The first time an non-Irish person comes across names like Caoimhe, Niamh, Aoife, etc. the pronunciation is going to be tough - but once told the vast majority of people remember.

It does bug me a little when a name like Caitlin (said Kathleen) gets changed over the years to be pronounced Kate-Lyn. It doesn't bug me as in 'they're wrong, I'm right', it just sounds wrong to my ear.

But that's language for you These things are in constant flux. At the end of the day there is no right and wrong, only tradition, convention and innovation. With names what is important is to respect how the person him/herself pronounces his/her own name. Beyond that is nit-picking really.

Though I do like nit-picking :blush:

[StGeorge]

irish spelling is always proper weird! i have to keep checking her name spelling if im going to write about her in this forum :joker: . remember orlaith from bb6 but it was pronounced orlah haha :conf:

I can actually see how Orlaith becomes Orlah, but it is if she was called Jeff that i would say WTF?

[Nemo123]

The Spanish send their kids to Ireland to learn English because we speak it better than the English do.

[Niamh.]

Well no - The first time an non-Irish person comes across names like Caoimhe, Niamh, Aoife, etc. the pronunciation is going to be tough - but once told the vast majority of people remember.

It does bug me a little when a name like Caitlin (said Kathleen) gets changed over the years to be pronounced Kate-Lyn. It doesn't bug me as in 'they're wrong, I'm right', it just sounds wrong to my ear.

But that's language for you These things are in constant flux. At the end of the day there is no right and wrong, only tradition, convention and innovation. With names what is important is to respect how the person him/herself pronounces his/her own name. Beyond that is nit-picking really.

Though I do like nit-picking :blush:

I agree with you, shur people outside of munster pronounce my name wrong (it's wrong if it isn't my way:joker:) ! So people outside of Ireland don't have a hope really!

[StGeorge]

How old is the English language?

Blimey Nemo....the spoken language has been evolved and barstardized from various influences including Celt, Norse(viking) Norman, Roman, Germanic etc, but the written form started to evolve from around the time of the Canterbury Tales to what we know today. Not 100% there but near abouts i think.

[Niamh.]

I can actually see how Orlaith becomes Orlah, but it is if she was called Jeff that i would say WTF?

:laugh2:

[Niamh.]

I can actually see how Orlaith becomes Orlah, but it is if she was called Jeff that i would say WTF?

actually on that point how do you pronounce "through" that's an English word

[ElProximo]

*yawns*

Yawn nothing.

Duly noted that when in a foreign country the ethnic person (chamomile) should expect and accept that her name will be pronounced by their (in this case white peoples) rules.
This is true for me overseas and in foreign countries. I don't get to insist they pronounce the roman letters as MY country expects it.

Cahrmel can be 'Keveen' in your 'country' but in London she ought to expect and accept she is 'ko-ma-hair' and really she ought to be happy about it and be complimented she is treated fairly and appropriately by the city people.

Funny but at the launch night I briefly assumed 'Shabby' was the Irish one.. because of the name obviously.
So at least we straightened that out.

[Nemo123]

Blimey Nemo....the spoken language has been evolved and barstardized from various influences including Celt, Norse(viking) Norman, Roman, Germanic etc, but the written form started to evolve from around the time of the Canterbury Tales to what we know today. Not 100% there but near abouts i think.

So that's about 600 years after Irish monks were writing the Book Of Kells.

[StGeorge]

The Spanish send their kids to Ireland to learn English because we speak it better than the English do.

Ouch :bawling:

[Patrick]

When i first saw Caoimhe's name i was pronouncing it Kay-oi-me.
But then i found out it is pronounced Kee-va, and wonder how such variance on the spelling is acheived?

It's the same with Padraig ( Pad-raig) being pronounced as Poric, and Siobahn (Si-O-barn) being pronounced as Sha-vorn.

Is there some sort of grammer rule here that can be used to ascertain other similar spellings, or is it just a matter of an interpretation?


LMFAO :joker:

Um, No.

[Niamh.]

Yawn nothing.

Duly noted that when in a foreign country the ethnic person (chamomile) should expect and accept that her name will be pronounced by their (in this case white peoples) rules.
This is true for me overseas and in foreign countries. I don't get to insist they pronounce the roman letters as MY country expects it.

Cahrmel can be 'Keveen' in your 'country' but in London she ought to expect and accept she is 'ko-ma-hair' and really she ought to be happy about it and be complimented she is treated fairly and appropriately by the city people.

Funny but at the launch night I briefly assumed 'Shabby' was the Irish one.. because of the name obviously.
So at least we straightened that out.

You're mother must be very proud..........................

[Niamh.]

LMFAO :joker:

Um, No.

actually my dads name is Padraig and we do pronounce it Poric

[StGeorge]

actually on that point how do you pronounce "through" that's an English word

same as threw

although looking at it ..it should be thruff as in thr-rough.

[Niamh.]

same as threw

although looking at it ..it should be thruff as in thr-rough.

also enough, so there are some English words that behave like ours!

[Oooo_get_her]

How old is the English language?

Anglo-Saxon dialects can be traced back to about 450AD.

Blimey Nemo....the spoken language has been evolved and barstardized from various influences including Celt, Norse(viking) Norman, Roman, Germanic etc, but the written form started to evolve from around the time of the Canterbury Tales to what we know today. Not 100% there but near abouts i think.

Old English is a very clearly Germanic language (or rather group of close dialects that are referred to as a language for the sake of clarity). You are completely right about the other influences as it evolved into Middle English and on to Modern.

I know Wiki can be a bit hit and miss but the article on Old English is OK:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English

[StGeorge]

also enough, so there are some English words that behave like ours!

They were probably yours and we nicked them :joker:

[Niamh.]

They were probably yours and we nicked them :joker:

hhhhhmmmmm, they do sound suspiciously Irish alright............... :joker:

[Big Brother Fan]

Anglo Saxon is nothing like English btw

[LiquidGold]

I can actually see how Orlaith becomes Orlah, but it is if she was called Jeff that i would say WTF?

:joker: but its still a weird spelling

[Big Brother Fan]

Not really

[Jessica.]

In Irish 'th' is silent so not really strange.

[StGeorge]

Anglo-Saxon dialects can be traced back to about 450AD.



Old English is a very clearly Germanic language (or rather group of close dialects that are referred to as a language for the sake of clarity). You are completely right about the other influences as it evolved into Middle English and on to Modern.

I know Wiki can be a bit hit and miss but the article on Old English is OK:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English

The thing is, the Anglo-Saxon language is not what we have today as English. What we have is what the natives, left over from all that raping and pillaging, put together.
And certain influences have stayed stronger in some areas. The Geordies are said to be derived from Viking influence for example.

[ElProximo]

In Irish 'th' is silent so not really strange.

What language do people speak, write, read in Ireland?

[Niamh.]

What language do people speak, write, read in Ireland?

We're talking about a persons name ffs I would expect someone to call me by my name no matter what country I was in, just as I would call any foreign person living in Ireland by their name the way they pronounce it

[Niamh.]

What language do people speak, write, read in Ireland?

Mainly English but there are areas that are Irish speaking, what's your point?

[StGeorge]

The funny thing is, i happen to like the sound of Cay-oi-me more than Keeva.

And Niamh, before you told me yours is pronounced as Neve, i thought it was Nee-am, and i actually like the sound of that.

But thanks for the heads up today. Im off now so chat later.

[ElProximo]

We're talking about a persons name ffs I would expect someone to call me by my name no matter what country I was in, just as I would call any foreign person living in Ireland by their name the way they pronounce it

No.
The pronunciation is by the hosts and not the foreigner. I experience this all the time and I am perfectly happy to accept and expect it. Combahair needs to realize that too.

I notice you are using English here. Does everyone in southern Ireland speak English?

[Jessica.]

No.
The pronunciation is by the hosts and not the foreigner. I experience this all the time and I am perfectly happy to accept and expect it. Combahair needs to realize that too.

I notice you are using English here. Does everyone in southern Ireland speak English?

There is no such thing as southern Ireland, we speak English because our ancestors were forced to.

[Niamh.]

No.
The pronunciation is by the hosts and not the foreigner. I experience this all the time and I am perfectly happy to accept and expect it. Combahair needs to realize that too.

I notice you are using English here. Does everyone in southern Ireland speak English?

don't be ridiculous, you call someone by their name no matter what country they're in! Why am I even bothering talking to you, I don't know:joker:

and I already answered your last question

[Oooo_get_her]

Anglo Saxon is nothing like English btw

But it is its direct ancestor.

The thing is, the Anglo-Saxon language is not what we have today as English.

I didn't say it was - but it the original language that took on the other influences and evolved slowly into what we have today.

What we have is what the natives, left over from all that raping and pillaging, put together.


No - that is not the case. The native Celtic languages did not take on the Anglo-Saxon influence and evolve, they were driven out with the people who spoke them (and carried on their evolution elsewhere) and the natives that remained behind, in servitude, in marriages, etc., spoke the Anglo-Saxon dialects of their masters, husbands, etc..

The raping and pillaging you are thinking of (perhaps) is the Vikings. The Anglo-Saxons settled a large chunk of the British Isles. They didn't come in, take everything and sod off again - they settled and their language settled with them.

Now - the Celtic influence can clearly to be seen to be bleeding into Old English / Anglo-Saxon during that time - but the base language is Anglo-Saxon.

[ElProximo]

don't be ridiculous, you call someone by their name no matter what country they're in!

Untrue.
Your name is pronounced by their rules and not yours (the visitor) and this is true around the world. I would know.

You speak English. The language of England. So maybe you should try following its rules.

[Niamh.]

Untrue.
Your name is pronounced by their rules and not yours (the visitor) and this is true around the world. I would know.

You speak English. The language of England. So maybe you should try following its rules.

:sleep: Póg mo thón

[ElProximo]

:sleep: Póg mo thón

There ya go. Speak your crazy bog people language and of course be so 'sleepy' you need to tell me about it lol

[StGeorge]

No - that is not the case. The native Celtic languages did not take on the Anglo-Saxon influence and evolve, they were driven out with the people who spoke them (and carried on their evolution elsewhere) and the natives that remained behind, in servitude, in marriages, etc., spoke the Anglo-Saxon dialects of their masters, husbands, etc..

The raping and pillaging you are thinking of (perhaps) is the Vikings. The Anglo-Saxons settled a large chunk of the British Isles. They didn't come in, take everything and sod off again - they settled and their language settled with them.

Now - the Celtic influence can clearly to be seen to be bleeding into Old English / Anglo-Saxon during that time - but the base language is Anglo-Saxon.

If as we can ascertain, that the Irish/Celtic language was influenced by the introduction of Latin, then i would say that the Roman influence in the land to become England would also be heavily Latin. So the Celtic language as such at the time the Saxons came was probably not much related to the original natives of the land now known as England. It too was probably an evolved language.
As you say, those natives left behind with the saxons would take up the Germanic influence....which is basically what i said. The other influences from Vikings and Normans also had a massive effect. The Vikings are known to have had a massive settlement and influence in the North East which is how Geordies have evolved. The main Saxon settlements only really established in the middle to south of England. Another influence, funnily enough, was via Scotland and Christianity, which had come to Scotland via Ireland seeing as the Scots are Irish and overtook/influenced the Pics.
English as we know it today has derived from the Saxon as you say but has been massively influenced by Latin and Norman.

At the end of the day, the languages of the peoples of the British Isles have gone through various changes and influences over centuries and centuries, and if you look at what the kids of today in London sound like, then it hasnt stopped evolving yet.

Come back in 100 years and we English speakers will be the minority.lol.

[Orvakki]

What language do people speak, write, read in Ireland?

Gaelic? I dunno.

[SoFarSoGood282]

It can also be spelt Caoibhe

[StGeorge]

:sleep: Póg mo thón

I take it that doesnt mean love you too. :joker:

[Niamh.]

I take it that doesnt mean love you too. :joker:

of course it is:wink:

[Oooo_get_her]

If as we can ascertain, that the Irish/Celtic language was influenced by the introduction of Latin, then i would say that the Roman influence in the land to become England would also be heavily Latin. So the Celtic language as such at the time the Saxons came was probably not much related to the original natives of the land now known as England. It too was probably an evolved language.

Again no. I can see why you would assume that but Irish and Latin were very separate. The Romans never fully conquered the Celts, but drove them back - so we have pockets of uninfluenced Celtic languages surviving. The Irish clerical men (and Scots and Welsh clerical in Ireland, e.g. St.Patrick himself) spoke both Latin and various forms of Gaelic but did not merge the two. The population at large spoke only the various forms of Gaelic.
Latin was a written language, a scholarly thing and when a word was borrowed into general use it was pronounced as per the Gaelic pronunciation.

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/celtic_internet_resources/98104


As you say, those natives left behind with the saxons would take up the Germanic influence....which is basically what i said. The other influences from Vikings and Normans also had a massive effect.

The difference in what is now England, and with the Germanic language spoken there, is the Germanic invaders ruled there, they settled. The British people (Celts) living there had been ruled by the Romans, but not assimilated. When the Angles, Saxons and Jutes came over they settled and assimilated those Celts that remained. The Celtic languages in the Anglo-Saxon ruled kingdoms (Mercia [midlands], East Anglia [as is], Northumbria [up to Hadrian's wall] and Wessex [modern south west excluding Cornwall]) died out. The Latin influence on Old English is very much as a spoken language. A language of trade and negotiation between mostly illiterate people. Therefore the majority of Latin words borrowed into Old English would have preserved the continental pronunciation.

http://www.orbilat.com/Influences_of_Romance/English/RIFL-English-Latin-The_Inflluences_on_Old_English.html

The Vikings are known to have had a massive settlement and influence in the North East which is how Geordies have evolved. The main Saxon settlements only really established in the middle to south of England. Another influence, funnily enough, was via Scotland and Christianity, which had come to Scotland via Ireland seeing as the Scots are Irish and overtook/influenced the Pics.

That's Picts. And while the influences you state are completely true the areas you refer to didn't evolve there languages separately. Yes, there are regional variations of dialect coming from these different influences - but the language now call 'English' has a coherent evolution across the entire geographical region.


At the end of the day, the languages of the peoples of the British Isles have gone through various changes and influences over centuries and centuries, and if you look at what the kids of today in London sound like, then it hasnt stopped evolving yet.

Come back in 100 years and we English speakers will be the minority.lol.

I agree with the first part - I don't agree with the second. English is the second most widely spoken language on the planet. It is the 3rd most spoken first language and the most spoken second language. It has long since replaced French as the language of diplomacy and I think can safely be considered the lingua franca of this planet (as Mandarin Chinese is more geographically confined).

English is the Latin of the modern age and it will take it a good deal more than a 100 years to be replaced by something else.

[Niamh.]

irish spelling is always proper weird! i have to keep checking her name spelling if im going to write about her in this forum :joker: . remember orlaith from bb6 but it was pronounced orlah haha :conf:

It's not dis similar to what is done in the English language with gh though, shouldn't that be pronounced gu-hu but its pronounced like a W

Though
Although
Borough
Plough etc.

and then you also have words like enough where the gh is pronounced like an F so most countries change the rules a bit not just us!

[lime]

:sleep: Póg mo thón

:joker::joker:::joker:

[StGeorge]

It's not dis similar to what is done in the English language with gh though, shouldn't that be pronounced gu-hu but its pronounced like a W

Though
Although
Borough
Plough etc.

and then you also have words like enough where the gh is pronounced like an F so most countries change the rules a bit not just us!

Thats so true Nianh..English doesnt follow an exact ruling in many of its words and has just been accepted and passed down over the years.

If Enough followed the rule of those other words then it would sound like:

e-no
e-nah
e-now

instead of e-nuff

[Shasown]

:sleep: Póg mo thón

Thats very similar to a welsh 'sweet nothing' pmsl

[Shasown]

No language ever truly dies out, although the Celtic Language would have gradually been used less and less, common words would have been adopted into the new language, hence the reason for some place names throughout the UK having a Celtic root, an Anglo Saxon root etc. Some of our swear words are Celtic and Saxon based.

The English Language is still evolving and as long as people speak it it always will.

[isoveli1]

Is Irish spelling generally pretty regular? Or is it as hard for native Irish speakers as English spelling often is for native English speakers?