France bans the Burka from today

[arista]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/07/13/article-1294418-0A56D37E000005DC-619_468x339.jpg

This was debated in English on France News 24.


French MPs today overwhelmingly voted to ban the burka
after a senior minister described it as a ‘walking coffin’ and a ‘muzzle’.
Only one deputy opposed the bill in the National Assembly
as 335 other politicians united to show their opposition
to Islamic veils which cover a woman’s entire face.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1294418/France-MPs-burka-ban-ONE-votes-measure-act-walking-coffins.html#ixzz0ta1bCfDJ



They can Move To Saudi Arabia
if they do not like this Future in France.



Sign Of The Times.

[BB_Eye]

I don't think it's necessary myself, but I don't care if they ban it either.

In the interests of consistency though, if the law ever wishes to go against the religious convictions of millions of people here in the UK, then it's only fair that the exemption clause for religious groups in the Equality Bill gets struck off too.

[InOne]

Well done France.

[WOMBAI]

I hope we eventually do the same!

[bananarama]

Well done France indeed......We in so called equality Britain should not allow and encourage Muslim female children into being brainwashed into believeing they should cover themselves like gangsters.......

Its a complete lack of respect for women. Its an example of blatent uncivilised control over women......If Muslim religious fanatics don't like the western culture what the hell are they doing here.........

[dudus]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/07/13/article-1294418-0A56D37E000005DC-619_468x339.jpg

This was debated in English on France News 24.


French MPs today overwhelmingly voted to ban the burka
after a senior minister described it as a ‘walking coffin’ and a ‘muzzle’.
Only one deputy opposed the bill in the National Assembly
as 335 other politicians united to show their opposition
to Islamic veils which cover a woman’s entire face.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1294418/France-MPs-burka-ban-ONE-votes-measure-act-walking-coffins.html#ixzz0ta1bCfDJ



They can Move To Saudi Arabia
if they do not like this Future in France.



Sign Of The Times.

I thought they'd already banned it:conf: Hope they ban it over here soon as well.

[arista]

Being Debated Now on ITV1 'This Morning'

[30stone]

Good times, hopefully others will follow.

[Captain.Remy]

It was about time I think. It had to be done. I'm quite surprised it hasn't caused an humongous controversy knowing it has been the hottest topic in France for the past 3 months.

[arista]

2 other Euro Nations do it.

[Jessica.]

Arista why do you always put news stories in the Serious Debates section?

[Shasown]

The law to outlaw face coverings in France has passed only the lower house of parliament, the National Assembly, it has yet to pass through France's upper house - the Senate, it will probably go before them and be passed in September.

However, it then would have its final hurdle by being reviewed by France's constitutional watchdog. It could be deemed unconstitutional and thrown out. If it does eventually become law it will probably be challenged in the European Court and somehow I think the humans rights lawyers will win that one.

[arista]

Arista why do you always put news stories in the Serious Debates section?


Simply

This is a Serious Debate
it has not yet gone through.

[Jessica.]

Simply

This is a Serious Debate
it has not yet gone through.

It isn't though, it's a news story.

[setanta]

The law to outlaw face coverings in France has passed only the lower house of parliament, the National Assembly, it has yet to pass through France's upper house - the Senate, it will probably go before them and be passed in September.

However, it then would have its final hurdle by being reviewed by France's constitutional watchdog. It could be deemed unconstitutional and thrown out. If it does eventually become law it will probably be challenged in the European Court and somehow I think the humans rights lawyers will win that one.

Yep, more than likely, but I still do feel it's an issue that does need to be addressed at the highest level of the European judicial system. It'll be very interesting to see how it all goes.

[arista]

It isn't though, it's a news story.



To You maybe in Eire
but on UK Radio and TV we have been Debating it.


Muslim women come on to say keep it.




Life In The City.

[arista]

Today the are arresting trouble makers in France
Illegal to have that head thing on.

[arista]

It was about time I think. It had to be done. I'm quite surprised it hasn't caused an humongous controversy knowing it has been the hottest topic in France for the past 3 months.

Today it is working


A picture of defiance: First woman openly flouts burka ban as France leads Europe in barring veil in public

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1375654/France-burka-ban-First-woman-pictured-openly-flouting-new-law.html#ixzz1JDUPC000


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/04/11/article-1375654-0B94376E00000578-891_634x422.jpg

the trouble maker

[arista]

Arista why do you always put news stories in the Serious Debates section?

This morning every show Live and on Radio
has debated this.

This is the Real World
Jess.

[Zippy]

Its a form of dressing that represents sexism and suppression. It has no place in modern society where we should all be equal.

And, as Ive said before, children should not see women covered like this. Its a very negative influence that belongs in the dark ages. Not to mention being bloody creepy only seeing somebodies eyes like that. Anti-social.

Then, of course, there's the security and identification issues. These are virtually like balaclavas. Would we allow people to walk around anywhere in balaclavas? No.

Hopefully the UK will ban it too.

[arista]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/04/11/article-1375654-0B9450E000000578-123_634x696.jpg

Paris the Trouble Maker removed

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/04/11/article-1375654-0B9476D000000578-986_634x420.jpg

Outside the French Embassy in London.


The Punks want a Hellfire.

[MTVN]

:bored:

[Shasown]

The Punks want a Hellfire.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/--tC5nXa1XuU/TZhaSnkWOeI/AAAAAAAAB9Y/x9paxWA1tCs/s1600/Lockheed_Martin_Hellfire_II_Missile_System.jpg

No probs!

[Barbie]

Hopefully the UK will follow soon, what they do in their houses is their own business but outside in public for the points raised above it should be banned. We don't allow hoodies to be up in shops, or would find it acceptable if people go around in balaclava's, we shouldn't have double standard just because it is someones religion.

[Zippy]

...just because it is someones religion.

it's not even that. Apparently there are no specific religious requirements to wear them. It's just preference.

[InOne]

Hopefully Cameron will step up to the mark. Highly doubt it though...

[arista]

Hopefully the UK will follow soon, what they do in their houses is their own business but outside in public for the points raised above it should be banned. We don't allow hoodies to be up in shops, or would find it acceptable if people go around in balaclava's, we shouldn't have double standard just because it is someones religion.


There are no UK plans
other than in high security problems.

[Shaun]

Hopefully the UK will follow soon, what they do in their houses is their own business but outside in public for the points raised above it should be banned. We don't allow hoodies to be up in shops, or would find it acceptable if people go around in balaclava's, we shouldn't have double standard just because it is someones religion.

I remember hearing "what they do in their homes is their own business, but don't shove it in my face" being a common line of defence for most homophobes.

[Scarlett.]

This topic is more than a grey area than people think, the Burka is part of their religeon, should the government really intefere in such matters? and has the French government taken into account that this could cause a backlash from more extremist sects?

[Captain.Remy]

This topic is more than a grey area than people think, the Burka is part of their religeon, should the government really intefere in such matters? and has the French government taken into account that this could cause a backlash from more extremist sects?

France is a laic country which means there is an absence of religious involvement in government affairs as well as absence of government involvement in religious affairs.

A few years ago, the French government has officially forbidden showing Christian crosses in public places. Now it's time for Islam to face the same fate.

Religious items are forbidden in public places. End of.

[Scarlett.]

France is a laic country which means there is an absence of religious involvement in government affairs as well as absence of government involvement in religious affairs.

A few years ago, the French government has officially forbidden showing Christian crosses in public places. Now it's time for Islam to face the same fate.

Religious items are forbidden in public places. End of.

Ah fair enough, I thought it was just the Burka's being banned

[Barbie]

I remember hearing "what they do in their homes is their own business, but don't shove it in my face" being a common line of defence for most homophobes.

Haha, im far from a homophobe, comparing a burkha to homosexuals is ridiculous! What im saying is as far as security and identification goes in their home they can cover their faces, but in public they shouldn't because we don't have a clue who they are under their burkha.

[Shaun]

Haha, im far from a homophobe, comparing a burkha to homosexuals is ridiculous! What im saying is as far as security and identification goes in their home they can cover their faces, but in public they shouldn't because we don't have a clue who they are under their burkha.

This debate's been had numerous times and it always comes undone whenever you ask someone opposed to the burkha to name an example where someone wearing a burkha has exposed a flaw in security protocols. Everyone immediately conjures this stereotype that those who wear them are like "dem terrorists" that get so much coverage on the news in the Middle East, because, erm, their country is messed up.

Besides, there's nothing stopping you from asking someone (wearing a burkha) to reveal themselves. That in itself is already a legal requirement - it just isn't necessary to ban them altogether.

[bananarama]

The ban is long long over due. Hope it gets implemented ruthlessly.

The allowing of such practices gives the green light for new generations from birth to be brainwashed with what ever cultural or religious garbage adults want to inflict on new generations.....

Brain washed kids do not grow up to be free individuals. They are mentally damaged individuals. The very reason there should be a ruthless ban on such practices.

British polititions are way behind the curve and will do nothing exept allow future generations to be taught dark ages garbage...

[arista]

Debate on Ch4 News now

[Shaun]

Yeah, freedom = banning clothing and religious practices. Interesting logic, that.

[arista]

Yeah, freedom = banning clothing and religious practices. Interesting logic, that.


Look Shaun I have been in France
its nothing like the UK.

They have Every Right to Ban it.

[Pyramid*]

Haha, im far from a homophobe, comparing a burkha to homosexuals is ridiculous! What im saying is as far as security and identification goes in their home they can cover their faces, but in public they shouldn't because we don't have a clue who they are under their burkha.

This.

It's about time the UK got it's act together and followed suit.

[Tom4784]

Yeah, freedom = banning clothing and religious practices. Interesting logic, that.

This really, I'm too tired of these topics to really contribute but restricting people's rights to wear what they want is a slippery path. What would be a better alternative is a educating people about the Burkha and such, tell people they can't do something and they'll probably react angrily but if you give them the choice they might very well end up rejecting the Burkha of their own accord.

A parent's mistake isn't always permanent, people can and will grow up and realise that some things their parents taught them were wrong, I did about a lot of things I was raised to believe in. Not everyone does but giving people the choice is a better and more peaceful way of doing things then outright banning it and creating more ill feeling then there was before.

[arista]

"I'm too tired of these topics to really contribute but restricting people's rights "

Have you been to France?

France needs this

[Tom4784]

"I'm too tired of these topics to really contribute but restricting people's rights "

Have you been to France?

France needs this

That's nice Arista :pat:

[Shasown]

This really, I'm too tired of these topics to really contribute but restricting people's rights to wear what they want is a slippery path. What would be a better alternative is a educating people about the Burkha and such, tell people they can't do something and they'll probably react angrily but if you give them the choice they might very well end up rejecting the Burkha of their own accord.

A parent's mistake isn't always permanent, people can and will grow up and realise that some things their parents taught them were wrong, I did about a lot of things I was raised to believe in. Not everyone does but giving people the choice is a better and more peaceful way of doing things then outright banning it and creating more ill feeling then there was before.

Aint that the truth!!!

[BB_Eye]

Can we ban wedding dresses?

Model female citizens get married in a registry office should they so lower themselves as to getting married at all. Wedding dresses are so synonymous your father 'walking you down the aisle' to give you away to your husband like you were a piece of property and they signify the end of all women's career ambitions. They're like walking coffins.

[Shaun]

I personally find nuns suspicious. They could be harbouring all sorts of explosives under their get-up!

[Niall]

This really, I'm too tired of these topics to really contribute but restricting people's rights to wear what they want is a slippery path. What would be a better alternative is a educating people about the Burkha and such, tell people they can't do something and they'll probably react angrily but if you give them the choice they might very well end up rejecting the Burkha of their own accord.

A parent's mistake isn't always permanent, people can and will grow up and realise that some things their parents taught them were wrong, I did about a lot of things I was raised to believe in. Not everyone does but giving people the choice is a better and more peaceful way of doing things then outright banning it and creating more ill feeling then there was before.

This.

I personally find nuns suspicious. They could be harbouring all sorts of explosives under their get-up!

:joker::joker::joker::joker:

[arista]

That's nice Arista


so I assume you have not been to France?

[arista]

France is a laic country which means there is an absence of religious involvement in government affairs as well as absence of government involvement in religious affairs.

A few years ago, the French government has officially forbidden showing Christian crosses in public places. Now it's time for Islam to face the same fate.

Religious items are forbidden in public places. End of.


Good For France.

[Tom4784]

so I assume you have not been to France?

Yeah I'm not biting Arista, try harder.

[arista]

Yeah I'm not biting Arista, try harder.


Contentious.

[Kerry]

There'll never be a winning argument on this. Funny really. Perfectly OK to walk into a post office in a burka, walk into the same place in a balaclava and you're fecked. Probably have armed officers on you in seconds but they're essentially the same thing.

Yes. I'm for a ban on the things. No need to hide your face and it's ignorant to say the least.

[Z]

I find the burka really intimidating, personally, but I don't really agree with banning it - the fashion police is now apparently a real thing! Hah. I don't like religion though, in part because of how outdated a concept it is and how so many ridiculous values are held in spite of a changing society. We don't roast animals over an open fire anymore, we don't build our own homes and so on so why do some sectors of society maintain other practices from thousands of years ago, e.g. wearing the burka? It's all a bit ridiculous IMO. Even though France banning it goes against the freedom of choice ideology, I think it's a step in the right direction towards ridding society of these outdated values.

[Beastie]

Hopefully the UK will follow soon, what they do in their houses is their own business but outside in public for the points raised above it should be banned. We don't allow hoodies to be up in shops, or would find it acceptable if people go around in balaclava's, we shouldn't have double standard just because it is someones religion.

This.

[arista]

"but I don't really agree with banning it "

No Zee
this is France not Scotland
they have every Right to inforce it.

[letmein]

"but I don't really agree with banning it "

No Zee
this is France not Scotland
they have every Right to inforce it.

What part of "I don't really agree", do you not understand?

[arista]

What part of "I don't really agree", do you not understand?


None

[Liberty4eva]

I think it's a disturbing new development that France feels it needs to enforce a new dress code. But I suppose it's not too surprising considering Europeans have, in sociological terms, positive freedom whereas Americans have negative freedom. If you don't like the burka why in the world did you allow millions of people from Muslim countries in to your country in the first place? They never agreed that they would dress like other French people.

I feel the government's responsibility is to protect unpopular freedom of speech and expression, not to cater to the impulses of the common people.

[arista]

I think it's a disturbing new development that France feels it needs to enforce a new dress code. But I suppose it's not too surprising considering Europeans have, in sociological terms, positive freedom whereas Americans have negative freedom. If you don't like the burka why in the world did you allow millions of people from Muslim countries in to your country in the first place? They never agreed that they would dress like other French people.

I feel the government's responsibility is to protect unpopular freedom of speech and expression, not to cater to the impulses of the common people.


Here in England
we ain't the Euro
and not Europeans.

[Scarlett.]

This really, I'm too tired of these topics to really contribute but restricting people's rights to wear what they want is a slippery path. What would be a better alternative is a educating people about the Burkha and such, tell people they can't do something and they'll probably react angrily but if you give them the choice they might very well end up rejecting the Burkha of their own accord.

A parent's mistake isn't always permanent, people can and will grow up and realise that some things their parents taught them were wrong, I did about a lot of things I was raised to believe in. Not everyone does but giving people the choice is a better and more peaceful way of doing things then outright banning it and creating more ill feeling then there was before.

Amen to that

[Liberty4eva]

Here in England
we ain't the Euro
and not Europeans.

In another thread it seemed like more than half of the people here wanted to stay in the European Union. It's cute how calling the English European can rankle them just like Canadians being called American irks them. :laugh:

[BB_Eye]

I find the burka really intimidating, personally, but I don't really agree with banning it - the fashion police is now apparently a real thing! Hah. I don't like religion though, in part because of how outdated a concept it is and how so many ridiculous values are held in spite of a changing society. We don't roast animals over an open fire anymore, we don't build our own homes and so on so why do some sectors of society maintain other practices from thousands of years ago, e.g. wearing the burka? It's all a bit ridiculous IMO. Even though France banning it goes against the freedom of choice ideology, I think it's a step in the right direction towards ridding society of these outdated values.
The absurdity of the pro-ban brigade is this.

Banning burkhas is apparently acceptable and inoffensive to ordinary muslims, because burkhas are not a requirement of Islam and never have been. Fine this is a valid point, their existence can be traced back to Manichean Persia.

How then are we supposed to accept that this ban is an attack on Wahhabi Islam alone -as commentators such as Yasmin Alibai-Brown seem so sure of- and not an attack on the ethnic customs of its wearers?