View Full Version : UK sixth form college bans the veil :for security reasons
arista
24-09-2010, 02:36 PM
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/09/24/article-1314793-0B509A63000005DC-456_468x334.jpg
"Burnley College. Bosses claim the ban was necessary for 'security reasons'
but the University of Central Lancashire,
which runs courses from the same building, has not implemented the policy
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1314793/UK-sixth-form-college-bans-veil-security-reasons.html#ixzz10SQs3Da0
Its a Logical Start for this College.
It makes Utter Sense.
Sign Of The Times.
Someone emailed Granada News who goes there and said its a security issue, hoodies, scarves, hats and so on are all banned too
King Gizzard
24-09-2010, 05:35 PM
security issue, ''I'm going to stab you with my hoody!''
security issue, ''I'm going to stab you with my hoody!''
No so they can identify people so someone who isn't meant to be there isn't there. My college had a similar policy
arista
24-09-2010, 05:44 PM
No so they can identify people so someone who isn't meant to be there isn't there. My college had a similar policy
That makes sense.
Jessica.
24-09-2010, 05:44 PM
They could easily get a clever person to wear their 'peep scarf' and do their exams and nobody would notice.
Scarves and veils and stuff should be banned in all schools.
Beastie
24-09-2010, 05:46 PM
What if it is reaaaaaaaaaally cold and you want to wear a hat, scarf and gloves?
Jessica.
24-09-2010, 05:47 PM
What if it is reaaaaaaaaaally cold and you want to wear a hat, scarf and gloves?
You take them off before you go in the door. :laugh3:
King Gizzard
24-09-2010, 05:55 PM
Ahh ok
I think they should be banned everywhere, not just schools!
Angus
24-09-2010, 06:00 PM
What would happen if every student decided to turn up to college with their faces covered? FGS, I am sick to death of muslims using the faith card to get away with avoiding security measures, when it is a fact that the full face burkha is NOT a religious requirement in the Qu'ran. It's about time there was a complete ban on it just as there is in France. I don't see why our safety and security should be put at risk for a minority who insist on wearing what is, after all, just a cultural uniform, not a religious requirement. As a woman, I also find it offensive that in this day and age, woman are subjugated by such an abhorrent garment.
Jack_
24-09-2010, 06:03 PM
If one religious/cultural garment/symbol gets banned - then so should the rest. So crosses and crusifix necklaces etc all have to go. It's not fair otherwise.
It's either it all gets banned or none of it gets banned. Personally, I'd rather the former, I've always thought religion is the root of all evil.
If one religious/cultural garment/symbol gets banned - then so should the rest. So crosses and crusifix necklaces etc all have to go. It's not fair otherwise.
It's either it all gets banned or none of it gets banned. Personally, I'd rather the former, I've always thought religion is the root of all evil.
The Burkha symbolises oppresion of women, it is not a religious symbol in the same way a crucifix is.
Jack_
24-09-2010, 06:09 PM
The Burkha symbolises oppresion of women, it is not a religious symbol in the same way a crucifix is.
It doesn't make a difference - it is still associated with religion and thus if one religious symbol [or whatever you want to call it] is banned, all of them are. You can't have it one way to suit some people and not another, that's just unfair. It either all goes or it all stays - simple.
Crucifixes are fashion statements now too, you won't find a burka in Topshop
Shaun
24-09-2010, 06:21 PM
*designs a range of designer burkas*
they're neon pink. you can also get leopard-prints. :)
Angus
24-09-2010, 06:44 PM
If one religious/cultural garment/symbol gets banned - then so should the rest. So crosses and crusifix necklaces etc all have to go. It's not fair otherwise.
It's either it all gets banned or none of it gets banned. Personally, I'd rather the former, I've always thought religion is the root of all evil.
The difference being that this is an historically christian country, and those that come here know that and should respect our culture. I think we do more than enough to accommodate other people's faiths and cultures but in the case of the burkha which actually compromises national security, it's about time it was banned in circumstances where it is crucial for the safety and security of others. Why should one person's "human rights" to wear what they want, compromise someone else's "human rights" to feel safe and secure?
Last time I looked no christian adornments or apparel threatened anyone else's security. A bit of common sense is needed here.
After all if you are going to play the "culture" card, is it acceptable then to allow honour killings, polygamy, and marriage at 12 years of age because that is the cultural norm in certain countries whose citizens CHOOSE to come to the UK? For the umpteenth time, the burkha is a symbol of female subjugation, imposed on women by MEN not some divine entity. It offends me every time I see a women wearing one.
Jack_
24-09-2010, 06:52 PM
The difference being that this is an historically christian country, and those that come here know that and should respect our culture. I think we do more than enough to accommodate other people's faiths and cultures but in the case of the burkha which actually compromises national security, it's about time it was banned in circumstances where it is crucial for the safety and security of others. Why should one person's "human rights" to wear what they want, compromise someone else's "human rights" to feel safe and secure?
Last time I looked no christian adornments or apparel threatened anyone else's security. A bit of common sense is needed here.
After all if you are going to play the "culture" card, is it acceptable then to allow honour killings, polygamy, and marriage at 12 years of age because that is the cultural norm in certain countries whose citizens CHOOSE to come to the UK? For the umpteenth time, the burkha is a symbol of female subjugation, imposed on women by MEN not some divine entity. It offends me every time I see a women wearing one.
I'm not saying people don't have a right to feel safe, they do. But you can't ban one religious item and not the rest. That's unfair.
Whether we are 'historically a Christian country' or not, it all has to go.
Ban religion completely and then maybe we'll be living in a slightly safer planet.
Angus
24-09-2010, 07:00 PM
I'm not saying people don't have a right to feel safe, they do. But you can't ban one religious item and not the rest. That's unfair.
Whether we are 'historically a Christian country' or not, it all has to go.
Ban religion completely and then maybe we'll be living in a slightly safer planet.
I repeat, the burkha is NOT a religious requirement, it is a cultural one, and one that is offensive to most independent, EQUAL women. You, not being a woman, seem to find that hard to understand. Since it is NOT a requirement of the muslim religion, there is absolutely no reason why women who want the freedom and equality to attend college with their male counterparts, should wear it at all. If they want to retain their so called "modesty" why not just wear the hijab which allows the face to be seen?
Oh, and good luck to any government that ever tried to ban ALL religions - cue world war 3. As it is christians in this country are already being persecuted and being treated like second class citizens. If people choose to be agnostics or atheists that's fine by me, but they do not have the right to prohibit others from following whatever faith they wish. Outward accoutrements and apparel don't signify faith, the observance of doctrine is all that is required, so it is no big deal to compromise on a garment, especially when these women have the option to wear a hijab.
BB_Eye
24-09-2010, 08:20 PM
I remember when they gave religious groups and churches an exemption from the Equality Bill. The excuse they gave and the excuse people still give is that it wasn't workable in practice as it meant churches weren't free to set their own moral guidelines regarding women and gay people.
But apparently, when it comes to banning the veil, muslims just have to deal with it and girls who have been brought up their whole lives to wear a veil in public will just have to see the errors of their ways?
Sounds like good old-fashioned intolerance rears its ugly head once again. I hope the school is prosecuted for denying people the right to live according to their faith.
Angus
24-09-2010, 08:49 PM
I remember when they gave religious groups and churches an exemption from the Equality Bill. The excuse they gave and the excuse people still give is that it wasn't workable in practice as it meant churches weren't free to set their own moral guidelines regarding women and gay people.
But apparently, when it comes to banning the veil, muslims just have to deal with it and girls who have been brought up their whole lives to wear a veil in public will just have to see the errors of their ways?
Sounds like good old-fashioned intolerance rears its ugly head once again. I hope the school is prosecuted for denying people the right to live according to their faith.
I lived in the Middle East for four years and I can assure you that good old fashioned intolerance is alive and well and always will be in a muslim country when it comes to adjusting THEIR ways to us westerners which, by the way, I had absolutely no problem with since I had CHOSEN to live in THEIR country. Thus I had to cover up and not wear short skirts, or display bare arms or a cleavage, and would be sweltering in 50 degree heat for fear of offending their sensibilities by a flash of bare flesh. It is called respect for the host culture, its laws and norms. We do more than enough in this country already to respect others' culture and it is not too much to ask that there should be some sort of compromise from those who come here. A hijab is more than acceptable in place of the burkha which, by the way, most arab women did NOT wear except in the more remote areas of Kuwait, Saudi and Bahrain that I lived and worked in. Most muslim women find the burkha as offensive as western women do, and unless you are female you might not get the significance of what the burkha actually is. It was explained to me that it is a visual sign of ownership and possession of the woman by a man.
Banning the veil has absolutely NOTHING to do with religious intolerance but everything to do with safety and security, as well as the liberation, respect and freedom of women. The veil is a symbol of FEMALE SUBJUGATION and is abhorrent and offensive not only to most western women but also to a lot of liberated and independent muslim women. It is a demeaning subjugation imposed by muslim men and is sexist and totally retroactive to gender equality. We live in a modern society where women have fought hard for equality, and the veil is a potent and virulent symbol of the oppression and "inferiority" of women.
Far from being an intolerant country, the UK bends over backwards to accommodate all cultures, but it is now being recognised (too late) that multiculturalism does not work when every culture keeps itself separate and refuses to integrate even minimally with the mainstream culture. No-one has yet satisfactorily explained how diametrically diverse cultures can coexist in peace and harmony without some common ground being found, and MUTUAL respect fostered. Banning the burkha is common sense in this day and age - why should one section of the community be exempt from abiding by the rules and regulations the rest of us must abide by?
I'm sick of men on this forum supporting the wearing of the burkha when it is so obvious that if the boot were on the other foot, men would never be subjected to such an indignity by women.
I note you do not address your support of other so called "cultural" norms, examples of which I gave in my previous post, but then again you couldn't really, could you?
As regards prosecuting the college for banning the burkha, I hope that those colleges that still allow the burkha are similarly prosecuted for failing to practise equality in the application of their regulations, and failure to assure the safety of their students by condoning the anonymity of the burkha so that no-one knows who the hell is coming in and out of the college, or for that matter taking the exams.
WOMBAI
25-09-2010, 08:05 AM
If one religious/cultural garment/symbol gets banned - then so should the rest. So crosses and crusifix necklaces etc all have to go. It's not fair otherwise.
It's either it all gets banned or none of it gets banned. Personally, I'd rather the former, I've always thought religion is the root of all evil.
What bull - it isn't about it being a religious/cultural garmet and has bugger all to do with fairness - it is a security risk, simples! As a poster has already mentioned the burka is not a religious requirement of the Quran! Many use it as an excuse to get preferential treatment and give priority to their religion!
WOMBAI
25-09-2010, 08:08 AM
I lived in the Middle East for four years and I can assure you that good old fashioned intolerance is alive and well and always will be in a muslim country when it comes to adjusting THEIR ways to us westerners which, by the way, I had absolutely no problem with since I had CHOSEN to live in THEIR country. Thus I had to cover up and not wear short skirts, or display bare arms or a cleavage, and would be sweltering in 50 degree heat for fear of offending their sensibilities by a flash of bare flesh. It is called respect for the host culture, its laws and norms. We do more than enough in this country already to respect others' culture and it is not too much to ask that there should be some sort of compromise from those who come here. A hijab is more than acceptable in place of the burkha which, by the way, most arab women did NOT wear except in the more remote areas of Kuwait, Saudi and Bahrain that I lived and worked in. Most muslim women find the burkha as offensive as western women do, and unless you are female you might not get the significance of what the burkha actually is. It was explained to me that it is a visual sign of ownership and possession of the woman by a man.
Banning the veil has absolutely NOTHING to do with religious intolerance but everything to do with safety and security, as well as the liberation, respect and freedom of women. The veil is a symbol of FEMALE SUBJUGATION and is abhorrent and offensive not only to most western women but also to a lot of liberated and independent muslim women. It is a demeaning subjugation imposed by muslim men and is sexist and totally retroactive to gender equality. We live in a modern society where women have fought hard for equality, and the veil is a potent and virulent symbol of the oppression and "inferiority" of women.
Far from being an intolerant country, the UK bends over backwards to accommodate all cultures, but it is now being recognised (too late) that multiculturalism does not work when every culture keeps itself separate and refuses to integrate even minimally with the mainstream culture. No-one has yet satisfactorily explained how diametrically diverse cultures can coexist in peace and harmony without some common ground being found, and MUTUAL respect fostered. Banning the burkha is common sense in this day and age - why should one section of the community be exempt from abiding by the rules and regulations the rest of us must abide by?
I'm sick of men on this forum supporting the wearing of the burkha when it is so obvious that if the boot were on the other foot, men would never be subjected to such an indignity by women.
I note you do not address your support of other so called "cultural" norms, examples of which I gave in my previous post, but then again you couldn't really, could you?
As regards prosecuting the college for banning the burkha, I hope that those colleges that still allow the burkha are similarly prosecuted for failing to practise equality in the application of their regulations, and failure to assure the safety of their students by condoning the anonymity of the burkha so that no-one knows who the hell is coming in and out of the college, or for that matter taking the exams.
Well said - I agree with every word!
joeysteele
25-09-2010, 08:41 AM
I think every Human being and all citizens of any Country should have the full right to be able to see clearly the other people that they share buildings,events and streets with.
That should be the overriding factor as to real community and security too.
Oh please, not the whole "they should respect our culture" argument again. We are not purely a Christian country, we are a secular one, perhaps the most secular country in the world. Not only that but we are a tolerant country. Why do people always compare us to countries in the Middle East where they dictate their clothing style to their citizens there. Thank God we do not do that, I would hate it if we such a strict and intolerant society so as to not have the simplest freedom to wear whatever clothes we wanted. Yes it was their culture there, maybe, but it isn't ours here, and we should be thankful for that.
What the hell is British culture anyway, people always parrot on about it and I'm yet to have a heard a decent definition, or a definition that would prevent someone wearing what they want. Since when did our culture dictate what clothes someone can and cannot wear!?
I cant belive some women are actually offended by the burkha. You may consider it a symbol of female subjugation, but most who wear it dont, not in this country. It is their right to choose to wear it, is their own personal choice, if they want to wear the Burkha then they can, and do, wear it.
National security may be a valid argument to ban the burkha. So would the fact that it does restricts integration and communication in a lot of ways, which is needed if you want a succesful multicultural society. But the arguments about preserving our culture, the UK being a Christian country, and it being a symbol of female oppression are not, not in my view anyway.
InOne
27-09-2010, 08:25 PM
Why are they using the term 'veil' as if it's some modest attire. They're covered head to toe in black fgs! Obviously is presents a security thread. I really don't know what they expected in a college where you are needed to prove your identity. It's not about culture or anything like that, it's common sense.
NettoSuperstar!
30-09-2010, 11:41 AM
Oh please, not the whole "they should respect our culture" argument again. We are not purely a Christian country, we are a secular one, perhaps the most secular country in the world. Not only that but we are a tolerant country. Why do people always compare us to countries in the Middle East where they dictate their clothing style to their citizens there. Thank God we do not do that, I would hate it if we such a strict and intolerant society so as to not have the simplest freedom to wear whatever clothes we wanted. Yes it was their culture there, maybe, but it isn't ours here, and we should be thankful for that.
What the hell is British culture anyway, people always parrot on about it and I'm yet to have a heard a decent definition, or a definition that would prevent someone wearing what they want. Since when did our culture dictate what clothes someone can and cannot wear!?
I cant belive some women are actually offended by the burkha. You may consider it a symbol of female subjugation, but most who wear it dont, not in this country. It is their right to choose to wear it, is their own personal choice, if they want to wear the Burkha then they can, and do, wear it.
National security may be a valid argument to ban the burkha. So would the fact that it does restricts integration and communication in a lot of ways, which is needed if you want a succesful multicultural society. But the arguments about preserving our culture, the UK being a Christian country, and it being a symbol of female oppression are not, not in my view anyway.
Aye its the usual bigots, coming out with crap...like christain oppression LOL....and what about the muslims that were born here? noooo they dont count, theyre not one of us...the sad thing is kids are going round my sons school calling people muslim as an insult...people are listening to this crap and going ug ug me hate muslim
WOMBAI
30-09-2010, 02:59 PM
QUOTE=NettoSuperstar!;3819183]Aye its the usual bigots, coming out with crap...like christain oppression LOL....and what about the muslims that were born here? noooo they dont count, theyre not one of us...the sad thing is kids are going round my sons school calling people muslim as an insult...people are listening to this crap and going ug ug me hate muslim[/QUOTE]
Security is the primary concern here - not Muslim womens' right to choose - the burka is not even a religious requirement! We all have to abide by such security rules - Muslims being no exception! They have no right to preferrential treatment - much as they may desire it! ug, ug! :nono:
Security is the primary concern here - not Muslim womens' right to choose - the burka is not even a religious requiment! We all have to abide by such security rules - Muslims being no exception! They have no right to preferrential treatment - much as they may desire it! ug, ug! :nono:
Well lets hypothetically say that the Burqa is banned on security grounds. The result would be increased suspicion of Muslims (as the banning of the veil implies that all Muslims who wear it are instantly terror suspects), they will feel offended and discriminated, and our relations with Islam would be even worse than they are now. That is what could increase terrorism here.
Who cares if is isnt strictly speaking a religious requirement. Neither is wearing a crucifix for Christians, neither is wearing the kippah for Jews, yet they are entitled to wear them, and Muslims are entitled to wear the burqa.
InOne
30-09-2010, 03:41 PM
Well lets hypothetically say that the Burqa is banned on security grounds. The result would be increased suspicion of Muslims (as the banning of the veil implies that all Muslims who wear it are instantly terror suspects), they will feel offended and discriminated, and our relations with Islam would be even worse than they are now. That is what could increase terrorism here.
Who cares if is isnt strictly speaking a religious requirement. Neither is wearing a crucifix for Christians, neither is wearing the kippah for Jews, yet they are entitled to wear them, and Muslims are entitled to wear the burqa.
I think banning the burka in a few school isn't really going to increase a terrorism threat. Come on. They can feel offended all they want, but most Muslims probably wouldn't be offended by it. The Media are Muslims worst enemy when it comes to think they this. Reporting on one over excited girl that feels 'offended', I'm sure most would just tell her to get over herself.
Niall
30-09-2010, 04:00 PM
I'm guessing this is for the full face veil/Burkha?
If so then I can totally understand why they would ban it. What if a student were to steal another student's property? How would they check the student's identity? I'm not saying I agree but I just understand why they are doing this.
Personally I don't understand why the Burkha is worn anyway. I don't see the need to cover a woman's entire face. It's unnecessary. And I know the way Muslim women dress is to keep their modesty but covering the entire face is a little bit silly in my point of view. The veil where you can see the face is fine - why can't Muslim women wear it?
arista
30-09-2010, 04:04 PM
"Personally I don't understand why the Burkha is worn anyway"
Some due to Strict Extreme Muslim Parents.
Niall
30-09-2010, 04:07 PM
"Personally I don't understand why the Burkha is worn anyway"
Some due to Strict Extreme Muslim Parents.
Oh ok, that would make sense, its just that most of the Muslims who I've seen speak about it, come across as that they chose to wear the Burkha. I've always thought it would be very uncomfortable to wear too.
Angus
30-09-2010, 04:10 PM
I don't give a toss whether muslims are offended by the banning of the burkha in a case such as this. It is common sense that it is necessary to see the identity of people going in and out of public buildings such as colleges, banks, schools, airports, etc etc. As it is, being a Londoner, I feel very uneasy when I have to travel on public transport with women wearing the full burkha. If Muslims don't GET that, well tough. I'm fed up with having to consider THEIR feelings, how about a bit of recipricocity and commonsense here for a change?
I think banning the burka in a few school isn't really going to increase a terrorism threat. Come on. They can feel offended all they want, but most Muslims probably wouldn't be offended by it. The Media are Muslims worst enemy when it comes to think they this. Reporting on one over excited girl that feels 'offended', I'm sure most would just tell her to get over herself.
Ah I was talking on a more general level. The impression I got from Angus and Wombai was that they wanted it banned altogether with their "it isn't our culture" and "it's a symbol of female oppression" bull. In the case of a school then they have the right to ban it if they please, and that would be fair enough, but I dont think it should women should be completely banned from wearing it in public.
I don't give a toss whether muslims are offended by the banning of the burkha in a case such as this. It is common sense that it is necessary to see the identity of people going in and out of public buildings such as colleges, banks, schools, airports, etc etc. As it is, being a Londoner, I feel very uneasy when I have to travel on public transport with women wearing the full burkha. If Muslims don't GET that, well tough. I'm fed up with having to consider THEIR feelings, how about a bit of recipricocity and commonsense here for a change?
Poor you, they should stop wearing a piece of clothing of huge importance to them just on the off chance that some uptight londoner feels a bit uncomfortable. Get over yourself :rolleyes:
InOne
30-09-2010, 04:42 PM
Ah I was talking on a more general level. The impression I got from Angus and Wombai was that they wanted it banned altogether with their "it isn't our culture" and "it's a symbol of female oppression" bull. In the case of a school then they have the right to ban it if they please, and that would be fair enough, but I dont think it should women should be completely banned from wearing it in public.
To be fair it is a symbol of opression lol But I don't think it impacts on our culture. It's still going strong I feel, just need to go to the right places.
Oh ok, that would make sense, its just that most of the Muslims who I've seen speak about it, come across as that they chose to wear the Burkha. I've always thought it would be very uncomfortable to wear too.
For the vast majority of those who wear it in this country it is their choice.
The number of Muslims who wear the burqa numbers only a couple of thousand, they're a tiny minority within a minority, people should stop getting so worked up about it :bored:
To be fair it is a symbol of opression lol But I don't think it impacts on our culture. It's still going strong I feel, just need to go to the right places.
Only when the husband forces the woman to wear it though, which happens very rarely in the UK. If they want to wear it, and they make the choice themselves then I dont see the problem tbh :shrug:
InOne
30-09-2010, 04:52 PM
Only when the husband forces the woman to wear it though, which happens very rarely in the UK. If they want to wear it, and they make the choice themselves then I dont see the problem tbh :shrug:
Yes but it stems back from where they or their parents come from. It was the taliban who forced Women to wear the Burka without choice. And why should a rare occasion be missed? And I doubt it's that rare the amount that wear them. Some came here to escape the way of life back home and now they're seeing it here. Now it has become some sort of fashion trend to the ignorant muslim youth.
WOMBAI
30-09-2010, 04:59 PM
Well lets hypothetically say that the Burqa is banned on security grounds. The result would be increased suspicion of Muslims (as the banning of the veil implies that all Muslims who wear it are instantly terror suspects), they will feel offended and discriminated, and our relations with Islam would be even worse than they are now. That is what could increase terrorism here.
Who cares if is isnt strictly speaking a religious requirement. Neither is wearing a crucifix for Christians, neither is wearing the kippah for Jews, yet they are entitled to wear them, and Muslims are entitled to wear the burqa.
No they are not - not if they contrevene security regulations! And I refuse to be held hostage to Muslim sensibilities! The burka poses a risk to security - a crucifix does not - to compare the two is ludicrous!
Any reasonable Muslim who is not trying to gain preferential treatment will understand and respect the security issue - if they don't - that is their problem not ours - and raises doubts as to their motives!
Yes but it stems back from where they or their parents come from. It was the taliban who forced Women to wear the Burka without choice. And why should a rare occasion be missed? And I doubt it's that rare the amount that wear them. Some came here to escape the way of life back home and now they're seeing it here. Now it has become some sort of fashion trend to the ignorant muslim youth.
I'm not saying that the rare cases should be ignored, men shouldnt be allowed to force someone to wear a burqa, but if we are dictating their clothing to them and telling them what they can and cannot wear then surely we are just like them? We may not completely understand their reasons for wearing them, but its very important for some people and I just dont think we have the right to tell them not to wear it. Only about 2000 people wear them (apparently) so they arent exactly a prominent figure in our society and I dont think it's fair to ban them just in case a woman isnt wearing it out of her own free will
I would agree that for some it has become something of a fashion statement though.
Well lets hypothetically say that the Burqa is banned on security grounds. The result would be increased suspicion of Muslims (as the banning of the veil implies that all Muslims who wear it are instantly terror suspects), they will feel offended and discriminated, and our relations with Islam would be even worse than they are now. That is what could increase terrorism here.
Who cares if is isnt strictly speaking a religious requirement. Neither is wearing a crucifix for Christians, neither is wearing the kippah for Jews, yet they are entitled to wear them, and Muslims are entitled to wear the burqa.
No they are not - not if they contrevene security regulations! And I refuse to be held hostage to Muslim sensibilities! The burka poses a risk to security - a crucifix does not - to compare the two is ludicrous!
Any reasonable Muslim who is not trying to gain preferential treatment will understand and respect the security issue - if they don't - that is their problem not ours!
It isnt a ridiculous comparison. You were making the argument that it is not a religous requirement, I was simply making the point that that does not mean it is not very important to some people, in the same way that a crucifix or a kippah is despite that not being a requirement of their religion.
As I said, I can see the argument against allowing burqas in schools or in an airport, thats a different matter, but if a woman is just walking down the street in a burqa or going shopping in one then they should have the right to do so. They should not be banned from wearing it just because you personally consider anyone in a veil to be a possible terror threat.
WOMBAI
30-09-2010, 05:09 PM
Ah I was talking on a more general level. The impression I got from Angus and Wombai was that they wanted it banned altogether with their "it isn't our culture" and "it's a symbol of female oppression" bull. In the case of a school then they have the right to ban it if they please, and that would be fair enough, but I dont think it should women should be completely banned from wearing it in public.
I don't know what your culture is - but mine is traditionally British of which I am proud - and why shouldn't I be - there is nothing wrong with traditional British culture and Christianity - it built this country!
British culture and female oppression are not bull - only maybe to men from a non-traditional British culture - which suggests exactly the same kind of single-minded bias you imply about the views of others!
InOne
30-09-2010, 05:10 PM
I'm not saying that the rare cases should be ignored, men shouldnt be allowed to force someone to wear a burqa, but if we are dictating their clothing to them and telling them what they can and cannot wear then surely we are just like them? We may not completely understand their reasons for wearing them, but its very important for some people and I just dont think we have the right to tell them not to wear it. Only about 2000 people wear them (apparently) so they arent exactly a prominent figure in our society and I dont think it's fair to ban them just in case a woman isnt wearing it out of her own free will
I would agree that for some it has become something of a fashion statement though.
But if it is a matter of security, we can tell them if they can wear it or not. It goes beyond any sort of Culture thing, we can't stop them wearing it for the sake of 'culture', but I'd rather a few women wore the more modest hijab, than to burka to prevent another 7/7.
NettoSuperstar!
30-09-2010, 05:12 PM
[QUOTE=WOMBAI;3819571]
It isnt a ridiculous comparison. You were making the argument that it is not a religous requirement, I was simply making the point that that does not mean it is not very important to some people, in the same way that a crucifix or a kippah is despite that not being a requirement of their religion.
As I said, I can see the argument against allowing burqas in schools or in an airport, thats a different matter, but if a woman is just walking down the street in a burqa or going shopping in one then they should have the right to do so. They should not be banned from wearing it just because you personally consider anyone in a veil to be a possible terror threat.
Exactly..."possible terror threat"....This issue is treated like its a matter of significant national importance...exactly how many breaches of security have occured due to burkha wearing jihadi's?? And how many times has it been an issue-muslims refusing to identify themselves where neccesary??...its all an excuse for a bit of muslim bashing and usually accompanies a load of vitriol and misinformation... and it all being a threat to "our" culture
WOMBAI
30-09-2010, 05:15 PM
[QUOTE=WOMBAI;3819571]
It isnt a ridiculous comparison. You were making the argument that it is not a religous requirement, I was simply making the point that that does not mean it is not very important to some people, in the same way that a crucifix or a kippah is despite that not being a requirement of their religion.
As I said, I can see the argument against allowing burqas in schools or in an airport, thats a different matter, but if a woman is just walking down the street in a burqa or going shopping in one then they should have the right to do so. They should not be banned from wearing it just because you personally consider anyone in a veil to be a possible terror threat.
It is - in relation to security - and security is what the thread is about! Even my 13 year old can see that a full-facial burka poses a security threat in places such as schools, universities, airports, banks etc and should not be allowed! Any item of clothing that covers the face is not acceptable!
NettoSuperstar!
30-09-2010, 05:18 PM
[QUOTE=MTVN;3819591]
It is - in relation to security - and security is what the thread is about! Even my 13 year old can see that a full-facial burka poses a security threat in places such as schools, universities, airports, banks etc and should not be allowed! Any item of clothing that covers the face is not acceptable!
yeh add your minor valid point in with the rest of it, we know the tactic...answer my questions?....wombat desperately searches the net looking for evidence lol
I don't know what your culture is - but mine is traditionally British of which I am proud - and why shouldn't I be - there is nothing wrong with traditional British culture and Christianity - it built this country!
British culture and female oppression are not bull - only maybe to men from a non-traditional British culture - which suggests exactly the same kind of single-minded bias you imply about the views of others!
What is this "traditional British culture that built this country", define it for me?
There's that joke about our culture that I remember which says how being British is about driving in a German car to an Irish pub for a Belgian beer, then travelling home, grabbing an Indian curry or a Turkish kebab on the way, to sit on Swedish furniture and watch American shows on a Japanese TV
I couldnt really tell you what my culture is, and I dont care, I'm not going to be defined by some percieved and misguided concept of "British culture" which doesnt even really exist
But if it is a matter of security, we can tell them if they can wear it or not. It goes beyond any sort of Culture thing, we can't stop them wearing it for the sake of 'culture', but I'd rather a few women wore the more modest hijab, than to burka to prevent another 7/7.
But is the threat really that big? Can we really justify banning what is a religious garment of huge importance to some based on an irrational paranoia of terrorism. Like Netto said, how many cases of attempted terrorism have there actually been where the suspect has used the burqa? A ban on it wouldnt have prevented 7/7, and it doesnt necessarily have to compromise our security. Where appropiate measures could be introduced, at airports, schools etc. but a complete ban wouldn't be fair imo
Exactly..."possible terror threat"....This issue is treated like its a matter of significant national importance...exactly how many breaches of security have occured due to burkha wearing jihadi's?? And how many times has it been an issue-muslims refusing to identify themselves where neccesary??...its all an excuse for a bit of muslim bashing and usually accompanies a load of vitriol and misinformation... and it all being a threat to "our" culture
Yep, agree completely.
InOne
30-09-2010, 11:55 PM
What is this "traditional British culture that built this country", define it for me?
There's that joke about our culture that I remember which says how being British is about driving in a German car to an Irish pub for a Belgian beer, then travelling home, grabbing an Indian curry or a Turkish kebab on the way, to sit on Swedish furniture and watch American shows on a Japanese TV
I couldnt really tell you what my culture is, and I dont care, I'm not going to be defined by some percieved and misguided concept of "British culture" which doesnt even really exist
But is the threat really that big? Can we really justify banning what is a religious garment of huge importance to some based on an irrational paranoia of terrorism. Like Netto said, how many cases of attempted terrorism have there actually been where the suspect has used the burqa? A ban on it wouldnt have prevented 7/7, and it doesnt necessarily have to compromise our security. Where appropiate measures could be introduced, at airports, schools etc. but a complete ban wouldn't be fair imo
Yep, agree completely.
It's not exactly of 'huge importance'. It's to do with their culture not religion. In the Quran is says to dress modest, doesn't go into detail.
It's not exactly of 'huge importance'. It's to do with their culture not religion. In the Quran is says to dress modest, doesn't go into detail.
To them it is of huge importance though, it isn't necessarily due to their culture, a lot of British-born Muslims will wear one, Muslims whos families have lived here for decades.
InOne
01-10-2010, 01:39 AM
To them it is of huge importance though, it isn't necessarily due to their culture, a lot of British-born Muslims will wear one, Muslims whos families have lived here for decades.
We're sorta going off topic, cos I'm pretty sure the burka hasn't been worn here for decades. Like you agreed with me earlier, it has become some what of a fashion statement.
We're sorta going off topic, cos I'm pretty sure the burka hasn't been worn here for decades. Like you agreed with me earlier, it has become some what of a fashion statement.
No I'm saying that some of the people who wear it have had their families living here for decades, they're British born so it isnt so much a case of their culture enforcing it on them.
For some it is a fashion statement I think, for others it's considered an important peice of religious clothing, I dont understand why they want to wear it but I respect their right to do so.
Shasown
01-10-2010, 04:09 AM
Yes but it stems back from where they or their parents come from. It was the taliban who forced Women to wear the Burka without choice. And why should a rare occasion be missed? And I doubt it's that rare the amount that wear them. Some came here to escape the way of life back home and now they're seeing it here. Now it has become some sort of fashion trend to the ignorant muslim youth.
Its true the Taliban did force women to wear it, but more the chadri version, with a grill netting over the eyes. But the history of veiling and the burka pre-dates the Taliban.
We're sorta going off topic, cos I'm pretty sure the burka hasn't been worn here for decades. Like you agreed with me earlier, it has become some what of a fashion statement.
In a way it has, but then doesnt that sort of remove the oppression argument.
Incidentally:
Veiling predates Islam by centuries. Assyrian kings codified veiling laws around 1200 B.C., but veils were not commonly worn until around the 10th century A.D. They were considered a mark of wealth and status. The burka first appeared in the 19th century.
Read more: History of the Burka | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/facts_6167699_history-burka.html#ixzz114o2pJca
WOMBAI
01-10-2010, 07:19 AM
What is this "traditional British culture that built this country", define it for me?
There's that joke about our culture that I remember which says how being British is about driving in a German car to an Irish pub for a Belgian beer, then travelling home, grabbing an Indian curry or a Turkish kebab on the way, to sit on Swedish furniture and watch American shows on a Japanese TV
I couldnt really tell you what my culture is, and I dont care, I'm not going to be defined by some percieved and misguided concept of "British culture" which doesnt even really exist
Yep, agree completely.
I don't need to explain it - British culture is obvious to most Brits - read some history books! Every country has its culture and identity - despite some trying to dismiss and destroy traditional British culture - usually for their own ends!
NettoSuperstar!
01-10-2010, 07:44 AM
I don't need to explain it - British culture is obvious to the Brits - read some history books! Every country has its culture and identity - despite some trying to dismiss and destroy traditional British culture - usually for their own ends!
haha...whos trying to destroy it and to what ends? Lets face it cultures evolve, change, influence each other over time, its life mate....noones trying to destroy your culture
WOMBAI
01-10-2010, 07:56 AM
Well lets hypothetically say that the Burqa is banned on security grounds. The result would be increased suspicion of Muslims (as the banning of the veil implies that all Muslims who wear it are instantly terror suspects), they will feel offended and discriminated, and our relations with Islam would be even worse than they are now. That is what could increase terrorism here.
Who cares if is isnt strictly speaking a religious requirement. Neither is wearing a crucifix for Christians, neither is wearing the kippah for Jews, yet they are entitled to wear them, and Muslims are entitled to wear the burqa.
Who cares if they would feel offended because we get our priorities right and put security before religious sensibilities! And are you seriously suggesting we bow down to the threat of terrorism by allowing such religious beliefs to override security issues - out of fear of reprisals! What a load of ****e! Talk about allowing terroists to dictate through fear and intimidation!
WOMBAI
01-10-2010, 08:00 AM
haha...whos trying to destroy it and to what ends? Lets face it cultures evolve, change, influence each other over time, its life mate....noones trying to destroy your culture
Judging by your obvious distain for all that is traditionally British - I assume you are not of British descent! :sleep:
Angus
01-10-2010, 08:10 AM
Culture and tradition are what bind people together, give them a sense of pride and loyalty to their country and to their fellow citizens. Britain has a long and varied culture which has been contributed to by generations of immigrants who have come to this country, integrated and enriched our traditions and way of life as their cultures have been assimilated into ours. That does not mean the host nation should be expected to have their way of life superseded by cultures that evolved in different countries under different circumstances and different histories.
Many of the dissenters on this forum are bleating on about "it's their culture" as if that is sufficient reason for the host culture to submit. I have still had not a single FM comment on the cultural activities of some of the immigrants who come here which are not only immoral, but illegal.
How about honour killings, quite common in many middle eastern and asian cultures?
How about underage sex and marriage which we call paedophilia over here? Girls of 11 and 12 are married off in a lot of cultures.
How about polygamy? How about forced arranged marriages?
How about Sati (widow burning)? How about the eating of animals we consider domestic pets here?
In many foreign cultures, the "ownership" of females by their male relatives (modern day slavery?)
How about stoning women to death for adultery, while the man goes scot free?
How about muslim men being allowed to divorce their wives by simply saying "I divorce thee" (the woman has no such right).
In fact how about all of Sharia Law? Under Sharia Law women are prohibited from pursuing certain careers and occupations and are supposed to stay at home doing the housekeeping and tending the kids. No doubt the chauvinists and sexists on this forum see no problem with such primitive and unenlightened practises becoming part of our mainstream culture, decades after they have been all but eradicated.
According to some FMs' reasoning we are supposed to allow all immigrants the right to pursue their culture and traditions, even if they are at odds with our social and legal norms and practices. Is there anyone on here prepared to defend the indigeneous population's right to have OUR culture and traditions paramount as they have always been. Britain has always assimilated immigrant culture and tradition, which in turn has enriched ours, but NEVER at the expense of our national safety, security, morality, ethics or laws.
The wearing of the Burkha in public buildings, public transport and anywhere where the identification of the wearer should be apparent and obvious, should be banned forthwith - it is NOT a religious requirement, and is NOT even a cultural requirement within the home countries of the women who wear them, it is a garment of CHOICE, imposed by some men on their subjugated and demeaned women. The argument that we should all be allowed to wear what we want in public is ridiculous - try walking down the high street with nothing but your shoes on and see how far you get - yet nudity is a cultural norm in some countries.
NettoSuperstar!
01-10-2010, 08:38 AM
Judging by your obvious distain for all that is traditionally British - I assume you are not of British descent! :sleep:
I have no disdain for all that is British, Im of British descent and proud of our rich cultural heritage but I dont feel threatened by other cultural influences
NettoSuperstar!
01-10-2010, 08:42 AM
Culture and tradition are what bind people together, give them a sense of pride and loyalty to their country and to their fellow citizens. Britain has a long and varied culture which has been contributed to by generations of immigrants who have come to this country, integrated and enriched our traditions and way of life as their cultures have been assimilated into ours. That does not mean the host nation should be expected to have their way of life superseded by cultures that evolved in different countries under different circumstances and different histories.
Many of the dissenters on this forum are bleating on about "it's their culture" as if that is sufficient reason for the host culture to submit. I have still had not a single FM comment on the cultural activities of some of the immigrants who come here which are not only immoral, but illegal.
How about honour killings, quite common in many middle eastern and asian cultures?
How about underage sex and marriage which we call paedophilia over here? Girls of 11 and 12 are married off in a lot of cultures.
How about polygamy? How about forced arranged marriages?
How about Sati (widow burning)? How about the eating of animals we consider domestic pets here?
In many foreign cultures, the "ownership" of females by their male relatives (modern day slavery?)
How about stoning women to death for adultery, while the man goes scot free?
How about muslim men being allowed to divorce their wives by simply saying "I divorce thee" (the woman has no such right).
In fact how about all of Sharia Law? Under Sharia Law women are prohibited from pursuing certain careers and occupations and are supposed to stay at home doing the housekeeping and tending the kids. No doubt the chauvinists and sexists on this forum see no problem with such primitive and unenlightened practises becoming part of our mainstream culture, decades after they have been all but eradicated.
According to some FMs' reasoning we are supposed to allow all immigrants the right to pursue their culture and traditions, even if they are at odds with our social and legal norms and practices. Is there anyone on here prepared to defend the indigeneous population's right to have OUR culture and traditions paramount as they have always been. Britain has always assimilated immigrant culture and tradition, which in turn has enriched ours, but NEVER at the expense of our national safety, security, morality, ethics or laws.
The wearing of the Burkha in public buildings, public transport and anywhere where the identification of the wearer should be apparent and obvious, should be banned forthwith - it is NOT a religious requirement, and is NOT even a cultural requirement within the home countries of the women who wear them, it is a garment of CHOICE, imposed by some men on their subjugated and demeaned women. The argument that we should all be allowed to wear what we want in public is ridiculous - try walking down the high street with nothing but your shoes on and see how far you get - yet nudity is a cultural norm in some countries.
You seem to want to concentrate on the problems with other cultures ALL the time...funny that..."at the expense of our national safety, security, morality, ethics or laws"? pleeease look out yer window and get your head out the Daily Mail, your being a tad irrational...like we condone any of the things your talking about JeeZ
I don't need to explain it - British culture is obvious to most Brits - read some history books! Every country has its culture and identity - despite some trying to dismiss and destroy traditional British culture - usually for their own ends!
Why not explain, what is it about our culture that means that the burqa is out of place? Why is it that, in a 21st century, secular and mulitcultural society, our so-called "culture" dictates that a woman cannot wear a religious garment out of her own free will?
Who cares if they would feel offended because we get our priorities right and put security before religious sensibilities! And are you seriously suggesting we bow down to the threat of terrorism by allowing such religious beliefs to override security issues - out of fear of reprisals! What a load of ****e! Talk about allowing terroists to dictate through fear and intimidation!
Wow, that's ironic! You seriously think that allowing someone to wear the burqa is "allowing terrorists to dictate through fear and intimidation"?! It is banning the burqa that shows a country is being dictated by fear of terrorism if we are so paranoid that we instantly suspect anyone covering their face is a suicide bomber.
As I said, burqa wearers are a tiny minority within a minority, stop getting so worked up over something that is hardly a prominent figure in society :bored:
WOMBAI
01-10-2010, 09:00 AM
Culture and tradition are what bind people together, give them a sense of pride and loyalty to their country and to their fellow citizens. Britain has a long and varied culture which has been contributed to by generations of immigrants who have come to this country, integrated and enriched our traditions and way of life as their cultures have been assimilated into ours. That does not mean the host nation should be expected to have their way of life superseded by cultures that evolved in different countries under different circumstances and different histories.
Many of the dissenters on this forum are bleating on about "it's their culture" as if that is sufficient reason for the host culture to submit. I have still had not a single FM comment on the cultural activities of some of the immigrants who come here which are not only immoral, but illegal.
How about honour killings, quite common in many middle eastern and asian cultures?
How about underage sex and marriage which we call paedophilia over here? Girls of 11 and 12 are married off in a lot of cultures.
How about polygamy? How about forced arranged marriages?
How about Sati (widow burning)? How about the eating of animals we consider domestic pets here?
In many foreign cultures, the "ownership" of females by their male relatives (modern day slavery?)
How about stoning women to death for adultery, while the man goes scot free?
How about muslim men being allowed to divorce their wives by simply saying "I divorce thee" (the woman has no such right).
In fact how about all of Sharia Law? Under Sharia Law women are prohibited from pursuing certain careers and occupations and are supposed to stay at home doing the housekeeping and tending the kids. No doubt the chauvinists and sexists on this forum see no problem with such primitive and unenlightened practises becoming part of our mainstream culture, decades after they have been all but eradicated.
According to some FMs' reasoning we are supposed to allow all immigrants the right to pursue their culture and traditions, even if they are at odds with our social and legal norms and practices. Is there anyone on here prepared to defend the indigeneous population's right to have OUR culture and traditions paramount as they have always been. Britain has always assimilated immigrant culture and tradition, which in turn has enriched ours, but NEVER at the expense of our national safety, security, morality, ethics or laws.
The wearing of the Burkha in public buildings, public transport and anywhere where the identification of the wearer should be apparent and obvious, should be banned forthwith - it is NOT a religious requirement, and is NOT even a cultural requirement within the home countries of the women who wear them, it is a garment of CHOICE, imposed by some men on their subjugated and demeaned women. The argument that we should all be allowed to wear what we want in public is ridiculous - try walking down the high street with nothing but your shoes on and see how far you get - yet nudity is a cultural norm in some countries.
They do seem few and far between - probably because they just get shouted down with accusations of racism! More intimidation tactics!
Britain is a strong, powerful and economically successful country with its own distinctive culture and way of life - which seems to evoke a form of envy and jealousy in some! Just because Britain has been a welcoming country and encouraged the assimilation and integration of different cultures into its society, does not mean it has lost its own unique culture and identity!
I am sick of these rather insidious attempts by some to belittle Britain, its history, culture etc and their constant attempts to 'convince' us that Britain is no longer Britain as we know it - but just some hugh melting-pot of diversity with no identity of its own! Rubbish!
Culture and tradition are what bind people together, give them a sense of pride and loyalty to their country and to their fellow citizens. Britain has a long and varied culture which has been contributed to by generations of immigrants who have come to this country, integrated and enriched our traditions and way of life as their cultures have been assimilated into ours. That does not mean the host nation should be expected to have their way of life superseded by cultures that evolved in different countries under different circumstances and different histories.
Many of the dissenters on this forum are bleating on about "it's their culture" as if that is sufficient reason for the host culture to submit. I have still had not a single FM comment on the cultural activities of some of the immigrants who come here which are not only immoral, but illegal.
How about honour killings, quite common in many middle eastern and asian cultures?
How about underage sex and marriage which we call paedophilia over here? Girls of 11 and 12 are married off in a lot of cultures.
How about polygamy? How about forced arranged marriages?
How about Sati (widow burning)? How about the eating of animals we consider domestic pets here?
In many foreign cultures, the "ownership" of females by their male relatives (modern day slavery?)
How about stoning women to death for adultery, while the man goes scot free?
How about muslim men being allowed to divorce their wives by simply saying "I divorce thee" (the woman has no such right).
In fact how about all of Sharia Law? Under Sharia Law women are prohibited from pursuing certain careers and occupations and are supposed to stay at home doing the housekeeping and tending the kids. No doubt the chauvinists and sexists on this forum see no problem with such primitive and unenlightened practises becoming part of our mainstream culture, decades after they have been all but eradicated.
According to some FMs' reasoning we are supposed to allow all immigrants the right to pursue their culture and traditions, even if they are at odds with our social and legal norms and practices. Is there anyone on here prepared to defend the indigeneous population's right to have OUR culture and traditions paramount as they have always been. Britain has always assimilated immigrant culture and tradition, which in turn has enriched ours, but NEVER at the expense of our national safety, security, morality, ethics or laws.
The wearing of the Burkha in public buildings, public transport and anywhere where the identification of the wearer should be apparent and obvious, should be banned forthwith - it is NOT a religious requirement, and is NOT even a cultural requirement within the home countries of the women who wear them, it is a garment of CHOICE, imposed by some men on their subjugated and demeaned women. The argument that we should all be allowed to wear what we want in public is ridiculous - try walking down the high street with nothing but your shoes on and see how far you get - yet nudity is a cultural norm in some countries.
The fact that you equate wearing a burqa with nonour killings, stoning a woman and paedophillia is ridiculous. You fail to see the point:
Honour killings, stoning etc. would not be allowed in this country because they are oppressive, abhorrent and out of place in a 21st century, tolerant society
Wearing a burqa is none of the above. Allowing the burqa to be worn is not pandering to sharia law, it's nothing to do with that. I am simply acknowledging that in our secular and multicultural country then if someone feels necessary to wear a religious garment that covers their face then they have every right to do so, and we should not be dictating to them a certain clothing style.
You said it yourself, it is a garment of choice, that some woman feel is hugely important to their religion, and freedom of choice should be allowed. It may not technincally be a religious requirement but it is considered to be of huge importance to both their religion and often their culture by the people who wear it, and we should respect that instead of crying "terrorist" everytime you see somebody whos face is covered.
WOMBAI
01-10-2010, 09:23 AM
Why not explain, what is it about our culture that means that the burqa is out of place? Why is it that, in a 21st century, secular and mulitcultural society, our so-called "culture" dictates that a woman cannot wear a religious garment out of her own free will?
Wow, that's ironic! You seriously think that allowing someone to wear the burqa is "allowing terrorists to dictate through fear and intimidation"?! It is banning the burqa that shows a country is being dictated by fear of terrorism if we are so paranoid that we instantly suspect anyone covering their face is a suicide bomber.
As I said, burqa wearers are a tiny minority within a minority, stop getting so worked up over something that is hardly a prominent figure in society :bored:
You do keep missing the point don't you! You are the one that said we should allow Muslim women to wear a burka, despite it posing a security risk - because it might damage relations and encourage more terrorist attacks! That is bowing down to intimidation! Simples! :nono:
Maybe you should stop getting so worked up and seeing every realistic attempt to keep our citizens safe as some some of attack on Muslims! It is Muslims that have a tendency to be oversensitive about things - and overreact - not us! :sleep:
Have you conveniently forgotten 9/11, 7/7 and the recent prevention by our security services of further planned attacks! These risks are very real - and noone should be allowed to wear clothing that hides their identity in public.
It isn't just national security either! In schools, colleges and universities - identity is an issue as far as attendance and cheating are concerned! What about exams - we can't have people sitting exams in burkas - it would leave the system wide open to abuse!
NettoSuperstar!
01-10-2010, 09:26 AM
They do seem few and far between - probably because they just get shouted down with accusations of racism! More intimidation tactics!
Britain is a strong, powerful and economically successful country with its own distinctive culture and way of life - which seems to evoke a form of envy and jealousy in some! Just because Britain has been a welcoming country and encouraged the assimilation and integration of different cultures into its society, does not mean it has lost its own unique culture and identity!
I am sick of these rather insidious attempts by some to belittle Britain, its history, culture etc and their constant attempts to 'convince' us that Britain is no longer Britain as we know it - but just some hugh melting-pot of diversity with no identity of its own! Rubbish!
What exactly are we losing? Whos belittling anything?
NettoSuperstar!
01-10-2010, 09:28 AM
You do keep missing the point don't you! You are the one that said we should allow Muslim women to wear a burka, despite it posing a security risk - because it might damage relations and encourage more terrorist attacks! That is bowing down to intimidation! Simples! :nono:
Maybe you should stop getting so worked up and seeing every realistic attempt to keep our citizens safe as some some of attack on Muslims! It is Muslims that have a tendency to be oversensitive about things - and overreact - not us! :sleep:
Have you conveniently forgotten 9/11, 7/7 and the recent prevention by our security services of further planned attacks! These risks are very real - and noone should be allowed to wear clothing that hides their identity in public.
It isn't just national security either! In schools, colleges and universities - identity is an issue as far as attendance and cheating are concerned! What about exams - we can't have people sitting exams in burkas - it would leave the system wide open to abuse!
Thats it keep ignoring any rational argument and concentrate on the irrational, keep it up wombat lol
WOMBAI
01-10-2010, 09:31 AM
Thats it keep ignoring any rational argument and concentrate on the irrational, keep it up wombat lol
Clearly isn't me doing that! :sleep: Sticks and stones dear - playground stuff!
NettoSuperstar!
01-10-2010, 09:32 AM
Clearly isn't me doing that! :sleep:
I know you are but what are you, wondered when that tactic would rear its head...come on Wombat, what are we losing? Whos Belittling us?
ElProximo
01-10-2010, 09:36 AM
The simpler and more effective solution is to simply start by banning any and all new Muslim immigrants who practice or agree with 'Sharia' laws.
One politician in the US (and I think a parallel in the UK) did write something up and the best I can recall the idea was simply along those lines of a pledge, declaration that everyone makes entering the UK:
"I promise to obey the laws of the UK etc etc... under her majesty etc.."
Okay.
But this is really a sort of amendment and just asks if the would-be immigrant/visitor considers 'shariah' the higher law?
If they say yes then they are turned away.
Now for people living here that agree with sharia being the higher law they would follow (which admits they do not agree to follow UK laws)?
Jail?
Expulsion?
Well you get the idea and it isn't really that complicated and we already do this sort of things anyways. It really just clarifies and included the whole Islam shariah laws sort of thing.
I wouldn't say this prevents leaders, speakers etc. maybe but diplomats and representatives would still be able to visit for whatever business or if captured and put on trial and along those lines.
This is just way more sensible than all this little petty adjustments going on all over the place.
WOMBAI
01-10-2010, 09:38 AM
The fact that you equate wearing a burqa with nonour killings, stoning a woman and paedophillia is ridiculous. You fail to see the point:
Honour killings, stoning etc. would not be allowed in this country because they are oppressive, abhorrent and out of place in a 21st century, tolerant society
Wearing a burqa is none of the above. Allowing the burqa to be worn is not pandering to sharia law, it's nothing to do with that. I am simply acknowledging that in our secular and multicultural country then if someone feels necessary to wear a religious garment that covers their face then they have every right to do so, and we should not be dictating to them a certain clothing style.
You said it yourself, it is a garment of choice, that some woman feel is hugely important to their religion, and freedom of choice should be allowed. It may not technincally be a religious requirement but it is considered to be of huge importance to both their religion and often their culture by the people who wear it, and we should respect that instead of crying "terrorist" everytime you see somebody whos face is covered.
The burka has been used by terrorists on several occasions - and does, without doubt, pose a security threat - you can't deny it!
http://frontpagemag.com/2010/04/22/the-burqa-bomb/
ElProximo
01-10-2010, 09:43 AM
The burka has been used by terrorists on several occasions - and does, without doubt, pose a security threat - you can't deny it!
Oh yes, that has definitely happened with Muslims murdering innocent people or other rival Muslims.
Interestingly, I recall some Jews used this to assassinate some Muslim murderers. Does anyone remember that? I don't think it was in 'Munich' but maybe i saw it on a documentary.
But yeah, there are countries in the Arab world where women are (by law) to wear those.
So here it can be a similar thing. Like their own countries. where they had to wear them. Except here you are not allowed to wear the veil. It is a law. Same idea.
Not for religious law enforcement but in this case so Muslims can't murder people as easily.
WOMBAI
01-10-2010, 09:45 AM
I know you are but what are you, wondered when that tactic would rear its head...come on Wombat, what are we losing? Whos Belittling us?
What is this "traditional British culture that built this country", define it for me?
There's that joke about our culture that I remember which says how being British is about driving in a German car to an Irish pub for a Belgian beer, then travelling home, grabbing an Indian curry or a Turkish kebab on the way, to sit on Swedish furniture and watch American shows on a Japanese TV
A pretty good example by MTVN!
NettoSuperstar!
01-10-2010, 09:53 AM
I know you are but what are you, wondered when that tactic would rear its head...come on Wombat, what are we losing? Whos Belittling us?
What is this "traditional British culture that built this country", define it for me?
There's that joke about our culture that I remember which says how being British is about driving in a German car to an Irish pub for a Belgian beer, then travelling home, grabbing an Indian curry or a Turkish kebab on the way, to sit on Swedish furniture and watch American shows on a Japanese TV
A pretty good example by MTVN!
Whats your problem? Do you feel belittled by that? What have you lost exactly?
NettoSuperstar!
01-10-2010, 09:56 AM
The burka has been used by terrorists on several occasions - and does, without doubt, pose a security threat - you can't deny it!
http://frontpagemag.com/2010/04/22/the-burqa-bomb/
Ahahaha bet you've been scouring for that day and night, very balanced I must say....well thats it lets ban it, theyve done it in pakistan, they'll do it here, its only inevitable, MTVN is rite we're pandering to terrorists, hysterics and right wing nuts
WOMBAI
01-10-2010, 09:59 AM
Ahahaha bet you've been scouring for that day and night, very balanced I must say....well thats it lets ban it, theyve done it in pakistan, they'll do it here, its only inevitable, MTVN is rite we're pandering to terrorists, hysterics and right wing nuts
Took me all of two mins! :joker:
No - I think we are NOT pandering to terrorists, hysterics and religious nuts! And that doesn't include the left wing nuts!
WOMBAI
01-10-2010, 10:05 AM
[QUOTE=WOMBAI;3820933]
Whats your problem? Do you feel belittled by that? What have you lost exactly?
Nothing - that is my point! Britain has not lost its own culture and identity - despite suggestions to the contrary - and neither will it!
NettoSuperstar!
01-10-2010, 10:08 AM
Took me all of two mins! :joker:
No - I think we are NOT pandering to terrorists, hysterics and religious nuts! And that doesn't include the left wing nuts!
Sorry I forgot you are very familiar with anti muslim sites. Yes Wombai we are because theyre really isnt a major issue with a few 1000 women in this country wearing burqua's and identification, theyre just isnt, and to enforce an outright ban is a ludicrous overreaction and very very Un British
NettoSuperstar!
01-10-2010, 10:21 AM
[QUOTE=NettoSuperstar!;3820936]
Nothing - that is my point! Britain has not lost its own culture and identity - despite suggestions to the contrary - and neither will it!
hahaha so what are you ****ing going on about?
You do keep missing the point don't you! You are the one that said we should allow Muslim women to wear a burka, despite it posing a security risk - because it might damage relations and encourage more terrorist attacks! That is bowing down to intimidation! Simples! :nono:
Maybe you should stop getting so worked up and seeing every realistic attempt to keep our citizens safe as some some of attack on Muslims! It is Muslims that have a tendency to be oversensitive about things - and overreact - not us! :sleep:
Have you conveniently forgotten 9/11, 7/7 and the recent prevention by our security services of further planned attacks! These risks are very real - and noone should be allowed to wear clothing that hides their identity in public.
It isn't just national security either! In schools, colleges and universities - identity is an issue as far as attendance and cheating are concerned! What about exams - we can't have people sitting exams in burkas - it would leave the system wide open to abuse!
No, I'm not saying thats the reason it should be banned, worse relations with Islam and a possible increased terror threat could be unintended consequences of banning it. The reason I'm saying it should be allowed is because it simply is not our right to dictate clothing style and tell someone they cannot wear a religious garment because of an irrational fear and paranoia of terrorism, or because "it isn't our culture".
What is this "traditional British culture that built this country", define it for me?
There's that joke about our culture that I remember which says how being British is about driving in a German car to an Irish pub for a Belgian beer, then travelling home, grabbing an Indian curry or a Turkish kebab on the way, to sit on Swedish furniture and watch American shows on a Japanese TV
A pretty good example by MTVN!
That's belittling?? Why? I asked a genuine question and then told a well-known joke that is true to be honest.
Just 2 nights ago I went to see The Town, an American film at Showcase, an American cinema, and then I went to Chiquito, a Mexican restaurant before we drove home in a Toyota, a Japenese car.
Ahahaha bet you've been scouring for that day and night, very balanced I must say....well thats it lets ban it, theyve done it in pakistan, they'll do it here, its only inevitable, MTVN is rite we're pandering to terrorists, hysterics and right wing nuts
Exactly, nail on the head.
WOMBAI
01-10-2010, 10:32 AM
Sorry I forgot you are very familiar with anti muslim sites. Yes Wombai we are because theyre really isnt a major issue with a few 1000 women in this country wearing burqua's and identification, theyre just isnt, and to enforce an outright ban is ludicrous and very very Un British
Very familiar with anti muslim sites indeed - got news for you - all it takes is to type a few words into google - and, there you go - not necessary to know your way around any such sites!
What people do in their own homes and places of worship is up to them - but in public - the burka poses a security threat - fact!
If just one person is killed in this country because of one terrorist posing in one burka - it is unacceptable! No religion, culture or individual choice is above the national security of this country!
Any reasonable person would understand that - it seems to me that the motives of those attempting to challenge such necessary regulations - are dubious to say the least! Either they believe themselves and their culture to be superior to our country's rules/laws or they are just being difficult for the sake of it - and looking to court controversy and publicity!
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/opinion/the-conrtroversial-ban-the-burka-debate-reaches-australian-shores/story-e6frereo-1225887202686
WOMBAI
01-10-2010, 10:36 AM
[QUOTE=WOMBAI;3820946]
hahaha so what are you ****ing going on about?
Funny that - was thinking exactly the same of you! :hugesmile:
NettoSuperstar!
01-10-2010, 11:22 AM
[QUOTE=NettoSuperstar!;3820953]
Funny that - was thinking exactly the same of you! :hugesmile:
So you werent banging on about people wishing to dismiss and destroy British Culture? okaaay Bob
WOMBAI
01-10-2010, 11:52 AM
[QUOTE=WOMBAI;3820959]
So you werent banging on about people wishing to dismiss and destroy British Culture? okaaay Bob
Do you not understand that by saying that Britain is now a multi-cultural society without a cultural identity of its own - that is what you are doing! Your posts suggest that you don't think much of traditional British culture and you seem to delight in the idea that multi-culturalism has 'knocked it off its perch' and taken over! It hasn't!
This is Britain with a society of many diverse cultures - with British culture being the dominant force - as it should be in Britain - just as I would expect Japanese culture to dominate Japan, and Arab culture to dominate countries in the Middle-East!
Like most of those of British descent - I love my country and its culture - it is my identity - and I have no desire to see that culture no longer recognised as predominantly British - which is why I choose to live in Britain and not some Middle Eastern country!
Despite how some seem to want to eradicate Britain's traditional cultural identity in favour of some multi-cultural wasteland, with no innate individual identity - Britain will always remain British with a traditional British culture and way of life - because us Brits can be a stubborn bunch too!
Angus
01-10-2010, 11:56 AM
Typical left wing woolly minded liberalism - anyone who dares to speak out about something like this is accused of xenophobia, racism etc. No wonder this country is in such a bloody mess when we are not able to have reasonable debates about things that affect us all without idiots trying to stifle opposition with such accusations.
During the 70s and 80s at the height of the IRA bombings everyone was searched going in and out of all public buildings, and all waste bins were removed from station concourses and pillar boxes were sealed up. An OTT reaction to terrorist threats? Maybe, but it sure as hell made me feel safer when I was working in Central London. There was an outcry at the time about civil liberties being infringed because of the searches, but in times of crisis national security supersedes all other concerns. Try living in London or any other major city where the threat of terrorism is always in the back of your mind.
The Burkha is not a NECESSARY item of clothing,and I guarantee the FMs mouthing off the most about allowing women to wear it are MEN. If their argument is that the wearing of the burkha is not illegal, then it's high time it was made so, since national security and the rights of all other citizens to feel safe in public places, should be put above the rights of a minority of people who wish to wear it. Especially since the wearing of this garment is purely a matter of choice, NOT a religious OR a cultural requirement. How about a bit of commonsense for a change?
NettoSuperstar!
01-10-2010, 12:00 PM
[QUOTE=NettoSuperstar!;3820991]
Do you not understand that by saying that Britain is now a multi-cultural society without an cultural identity of its own - that is what you are doing! Your posts suggest that you don't think much of traditional British culture and you seem to delight in the idea that multi-culturalism has 'knocked it off its perch' and taken over! It hasn't!
This is Britain with a society of many diverse cultures - with British culture being the dominant force - as it should be in Britain - just as I would expect Japanese culture to dominate Japan, and Arab culture to dominate countries in the Middle-East!
Like most of those of British descent - I love my country and its culture - it is my identity - and I have no desire to see that culture no longer recognised as predominantly British - which is why I choose to live in Britain and not some Middle Eastern country!
Despite how some seem to want to eradicate Britain's traditional cultural identity in favour of some multi-cultural wasteland, with no innate individual identity - Britain will always remain British with a traditional British culture and way of life - because us Brits can be a stubborn bunch too!
What are you on? knocking British culture of its perch? lol British culture is made up of multicultural influence too, its not just cricket and cream teas Wombai and also you seem to think that our culture is under threat from "others", its not. This is far from a middle eastern country, what just cos a few want to wear a burqua?? it never will be. Britain is built on tolerance and freedom of choice. By banning the burqa your going against all that is British
NettoSuperstar!
01-10-2010, 12:03 PM
Typical left wing woolly minded liberalism - anyone who dares to speak out about something like this is accused of xenophobia, racism etc. No wonder this country is in such a bloody mess when we are not able to have reasonable debates about things that affect us all without idiots trying to stifle opposition with such accusations.
During the 70s and 80s at the height of the IRA bombings everyone was searched going in and out of all public buildings, and all waste bins were removed from station concourses and pillar boxes were sealed up. An OTT reaction to terrorist threats? Maybe, but it sure as hell made me feel safer when I was working in Central London. There was an outcry at the time about civil liberties being infringed because of the searches, but in times of crisis national security supersedes all other concerns. Try living in London or any other major city where the threat of terrorism is always in the back of your mind.
The Burkha is not a NECESSARY item of clothing,and I guarantee the FMs mouthing off the most about allowing women to wear it are MEN. If their argument is that the wearing of the burkha is not illegal, then it's high time it was made so, since national security and the rights of all other citizens to feel safe in public places, should be put above the rights of a minority of people who wish to wear it. Especially since the wearing of this garment is purely a matter of choice, NOT a religious OR a cultural requirement. How about a bit of commonsense for a change?
Most of us do feel safe though I dont break out in a sweat when Im sat next to a woman in a burqa, JeeZ...you try having some common sense and proportion
...also not a man and also live in a major multicultural city, the threat of terrorism is something I rarely think about being a bit rational and all (and also waiting to be called a wooly liberal hahaha)
WOMBAI
01-10-2010, 12:18 PM
Most of us do feel safe though I dont break out in a sweat when Im sat next to a woman in a burqa, JeeZ...you try having some common sense and proportion
...also not a man and also live in a major multicultural city, the threat of terrorism is something I rarely think about being a bit rational and all (and also waiting to be called a wooly liberal hahaha)
Maybe you are simply too 'naive' and idealistic to fully comprehend the potential threat to our society! What about the recent planned attacks that were thwarted by intelligence - how do you know that hiding their identities behind burkas weren't a part of that plan! You don't! It won't be the last!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/8031570/Terror-plot-against-Britain-thwarted-by-drone-strike.html
All I can say - is that if and when there is another attack in Britain - I hope any unfortunate victims are the loved ones of those whose attitudes contributed to allowing it to happen and not of those totally opposed to allowing anything that increases the risks!
Shasown
01-10-2010, 12:24 PM
Good the hear that compromise is still highly evident on the forum.
How about on the street in buses and trains etc if a woman wished to wear a burqa then she can.
However if it is required to be removed for genuine reasons of security. At airports, banks etc then she has to remove it in order to use that place.
Incidentally if it is simply for security and because terrorists may use it as a disguise are you also going to call for the removal of sunglasses, beards, false hairpieces, liquid latex etc as they have all been used by terrorists and criminals for years.
If the burka is banned in public then shouldnt hoods etc always be down, caps etc not be allowed to be worn? I would say more people are wrongly intimidated by youths wearing clothes that hide their identity rather than some female doing a darth vader impersonation because she or her family feel that her face may bring out feelings of lust in a man.
Good the hear that compromise is still highly evident on the forum.
How about on the street in buses and trains etc if a woman wished to wear a burqa then she can.
However if it is required to be removed for genuine reasons of security. At airports, banks etc then she has to remove it in order to use that place.
Incidentally if it is simply for security and because terrorists may use it as a disguise are you also going to call for the removal of sunglasses, beards, false hairpieces, liquid latex etc as they have all been used by terrorists and criminals for years.
If the burka is banned in public then shouldnt hoods etc always be down, caps etc not be allowed to be worn? I would say more people are wrongly intimidated by youths wearing clothes that hide their identity rather than some female doing a darth vader impersonation because she or her family feel that her face may bring out feelings of lust in a man.
Yeah, thats what I've been arguing, I dont think the burqa should be completely banned in public, but I can understand that it may be necessary for it to be removed sometimes.
Some good points with the rest of your post by the way.
NettoSuperstar!
01-10-2010, 12:52 PM
Good the hear that compromise is still highly evident on the forum.
How about on the street in buses and trains etc if a woman wished to wear a burqa then she can.
However if it is required to be removed for genuine reasons of security. At airports, banks etc then she has to remove it in order to use that place.
Incidentally if it is simply for security and because terrorists may use it as a disguise are you also going to call for the removal of sunglasses, beards, false hairpieces, liquid latex etc as they have all been used by terrorists and criminals for years.
If the burka is banned in public then shouldnt hoods etc always be down, caps etc not be allowed to be worn? I would say more people are wrongly intimidated by youths wearing clothes that hide their identity rather than some female doing a darth vader impersonation because she or her family feel that her face may bring out feelings of lust in a man.
ennit haha
WOMBAI
01-10-2010, 12:57 PM
Good the hear that compromise is still highly evident on the forum.
How about on the street in buses and trains etc if a woman wished to wear a burqa then she can.
However if it is required to be removed for genuine reasons of security. At airports, banks etc then she has to remove it in order to use that place.
Incidentally if it is simply for security and because terrorists may use it as a disguise are you also going to call for the removal of sunglasses, beards, false hairpieces, liquid latex etc as they have all been used by terrorists and criminals for years.
If the burka is banned in public then shouldnt hoods etc always be down, caps etc not be allowed to be worn? I would say more people are wrongly intimidated by youths wearing clothes that hide their identity rather than some female doing a darth vader impersonation because she or her family feel that her face may bring out feelings of lust in a man.
Sunglasses, caps, even hoods etc don't totally conceal identity - and you can always tell whether it is a man or a woman! A burka is totally concealing - making it much easier for someone to hide their identity and other items.
Also - because of the associated female modesty issue - people are less inclined to ask them to remove it - for fear of offence! It makes people feel uncomfortable - and Muslims are well aware of this!
NettoSuperstar!
01-10-2010, 12:58 PM
Maybe you are simply too 'naive' and idealistic to fully comprehend the potential threat to our society! What about the recent planned attacks that were thwarted by intelligence - how do you know that hiding their identities behind burkas weren't a part of that plan! You don't! It won't be the last!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/8031570/Terror-plot-against-Britain-thwarted-by-drone-strike.html
All I can say - is that if and when there is another attack in Britain - I hope any unfortunate victims are the loved ones of those whose attitudes contributed to allowing it to happen and not of those totally opposed to allowing anything that increases the risks!
Im anything but naive, I just dont get carried away with media sensationalism, and reactionary political propoganda. I am probably as likely to get attacked by a burqa covered Jihadi as run over by a bus, thats rationalism not idealism....and you fail to see how your reactionary position and the resulting increased marginalisation WOULD increase the risks
WOMBAI
01-10-2010, 01:05 PM
Im anything but naive, I just dont get carried away with media sensationalism, and reactionary political propoganda. I am probably as likely to get attacked by a burqa covered Jihadi as run over by a bus, thats rationalism not idealism....and you fail to see how your reactionary position WOULD increase the risks
When it does happen - tell that to the families of the victims! :sleep:
NettoSuperstar!
01-10-2010, 01:07 PM
When it does happen - tell that to the families of the victims! :sleep:
Rite O Wombat
WOMBAI
01-10-2010, 01:08 PM
Rite O Wombat
Can't reason with a childish name caller! :sleep: Shouldn't you be at school!
NettoSuperstar!
01-10-2010, 01:09 PM
:sleep: lol
Angus
01-10-2010, 01:26 PM
Good the hear that compromise is still highly evident on the forum.
How about on the street in buses and trains etc if a woman wished to wear a burqa then she can.
However if it is required to be removed for genuine reasons of security. At airports, banks etc then she has to remove it in order to use that place.
Incidentally if it is simply for security and because terrorists may use it as a disguise are you also going to call for the removal of sunglasses, beards, false hairpieces, liquid latex etc as they have all been used by terrorists and criminals for years.
If the burka is banned in public then shouldnt hoods etc always be down, caps etc not be allowed to be worn? I would say more people are wrongly intimidated by youths wearing clothes that hide their identity rather than some female doing a darth vader impersonation because she or her family feel that her face may bring out feelings of lust in a man.
Sunglasses, wigs, latex etc certainly DISGUISE people's appearance but the burkha completely annihilates all evidence of identity, so to use those as an example is frankly ridiculous. Furthermore, I disagree that the burkha should be allowed on public transport or in any public buildings which are closed environments. Compromise is not a one way street - what some FMs seem to be demanding is that, once again, we must submit to other people's cultural norms even if we may find them offensive, abhorrent or downright dangerous. No-one dragged anyone to this country kicking and screaming, they came voluntarily, and they should have the commonsense and courtesy to comply with the laws, rules and regulations the rest of us have to abide by.
I am also totally fed up with MEN being so blase about this truly abhorrent visual sign of female oppression. I will say it again - no man would ever submit to such an indignity.
Angus
01-10-2010, 02:00 PM
Im anything but naive, I just dont get carried away with media sensationalism, and reactionary political propoganda. I am probably as likely to get attacked by a burqa covered Jihadi as run over by a bus, thats rationalism not idealism....and you fail to see how your reactionary position and the resulting increased marginalisation WOULD increase the risks
The wearing of a burkha is REACTIONARY and has no place in modern day society whether in Britain, Saudi Arabia, or Pakistan. In Islamic countries enlightened women are fighting against oppression and subjugation, but because of the male dominated hierarchy it will take them decades, if ever, to achieve the same freedoms we in the West enjoy. What excuse do we have in Britain to encourage such outdated, reactionary practices? We should be encouraging progress and enlightenment. Do you not GET that? Why would you NOT want these brainwashed, oppressed women to join the
21st century?
Sunglasses, wigs, latex etc certainly DISGUISE people's appearance but the burkha completely annihilates all evidence of identity, so to use those as an example is frankly ridiculous. Furthermore, I disagree that the burkha should be allowed on public transport or in any public buildings which are closed environments. Compromise is not a one way street - what some FMs seem to be demanding is that, once again, we must submit to other people's cultural norms even if we may find them offensive, abhorrent or downright dangerous. No-one dragged anyone to this country kicking and screaming, they came voluntarily, and they should have the commonsense and courtesy to comply with the laws, rules and regulations the rest of us have to abide by.
I am also totally fed up with MEN being so blase about this truly abhorrent visual sign of female oppression. I will say it again - no man would ever submit to such an indignity.
Banning a woman from wearing something out of her own free will - that is oppression.
You still dont undertsand that banning a religious garment is an infringement on civil liberties, and an infringement on religious freedom. And before you go on about how it is not techincally a requriement I'll reiterate that neither are crucuifixes, nor is the kippah for Jews. By saying that I'm not saying that the burqa and the kippah are similar, not at all, but they are both ways of somebody expressing their religion, and that is a right that freedom of religion grants.
We are not submitting to others cultural norms. If you find the burqa abhorrent and offensive then that you really do need to get over yourself and your petty attitude where you think you have the right to decide what clothing is and isnt acceptable. We are a multicultural and secular society, whether you and your BNP, Daily Mail-reading buddies like it or not, and we should therefore be tolerant of other religious and cultural customs, instead of holding them in contempt.
The number of women who wear burqas is tiny, no more than a thousand or two. Just live and let live.
Angus
01-10-2010, 03:16 PM
Banning a woman from wearing something out of her own free will - that is oppression.
You still dont undertsand that banning a religious garment is an infringement on civil liberties, and an infringement on religious freedom. And before you go on about how it is not techincally a requriement I'll reiterate that neither are crucuifixes, nor is the kippah for Jews. By saying that I'm not saying that the burqa and the kippah are similar, not at all, but they are both ways of somebody expressing their religion, and that is a right that freedom of religion grants.
We are not submitting to others cultural norms. If you find the burqa abhorrent and offensive then that you really do need to get over yourself and your petty attitude where you think you have the right to decide what clothing is and isnt acceptable. We are a multicultural and secular society, whether you and your BNP, Daily Mail-reading buddies like it or not, and we should therefore be tolerant of other religious and cultural customs, instead of holding them in contempt.
The number of women who wear burqas is tiny, no more than a thousand or two. Just live and let live.
How *******ing dare you accuse me of having anything to do with the vile BNP -that is the typical and predictable reaction of left wing lunatics towards anyone who disagrees with their wooly minded liberalism. It's people like you who have turned this country into the mess it is now in. Well I've news for you, the general public are no longer being beaten into submission because they fear being called racists. Such vile accusations have stifled any meaningful debates on uncontrolled immigration and the clash of hundreds of different cultures in our inner cities. Even the useless Labour Party have now admitted that their policies on uncontrolled immigration and multiculturalism is deeply flawed, and is now causing all sorts of inter-ethnic clashes of culture and jostling for scant resources.
I've lived in many different countries, and amongst many different cultures during my life and I have ALWAYS abided by the host countries laws, rules, regulations and cultural norms even when they have been in direct contradiction to mine, so don't bloody lecture me on the meaning of tolerance. It is not too much to ask that people who come to this country of their own free will, are prepared to respect OUR way of life. Respect and acceptance is a two way street and it's about time we were met half way.
I bet you're a male chauvinistic, sexist pig, judging by your complete inability to understand that most of these women do not wear the burkha from their own free will. Have you ever taken the time to talk to such women, well I have and not just in this country. I have lived in the Middle East and know only too well how oppressed women are there, so don't give me all your BS about how we MUST accept such reactionary sexist crap in our modern day society. It is NOT a religious or even a major cultural requirement but it is extremely divisive if only because the burkha isolates the wearer from normal human interaction and contact. How is multiculturalism ever going to work in practise if EVERY culture does its own thing, irrespective of whether it is acceptable to other cultures. But then the loony left never think anything through do they? I suggest YOU go back to your red flag flying, Guardian reading, hypocritical left wing buddies whose idealistic claptrap is never grounded in any reality.
arista
01-10-2010, 03:35 PM
MTVN
can you please keep the BNP out of this thread.
Its is about a College using there Security Rights.
Sign Of The Times.
How *******ing dare you accuse me of having anything to do with the vile BNP -that is the typical and predictable reaction of left wing lunatics towards anyone who disagrees with their wooly minded liberalism. It's people like you who have turned this country into the mess it is now in. Well I've news for you, the general public are no longer being beaten into submission because they fear being called racists. Such vile accusations have stifled any meaningful debates on uncontrolled immigration and the clash of hundreds of different cultures in our inner cities. Even the useless Labour Party have now admitted that their policies on uncontrolled immigration and multiculturalism is deeply flawed, and is now causing all sorts of inter-ethnic clashes of culture and jostling for scant resources.
I've lived in many different countries, and amongst many different cultures during my life and I have ALWAYS abided by the host countries laws, rules, regulations and cultural norms even when they have been in direct contradiction to mine, so don't bloody lecture me on the meaning of tolerance. It is not too much to ask that people who come to this country of their own free will, are prepared to respect OUR way of life. Respect and acceptance is a two way street and it's about time we were met half way.
I bet you're a male chauvinistic, sexist pig, judging by your complete inability to understand that most of these women do not wear the burkha from their own free will. Have you ever taken the time to talk to such women, well I have and not just in this country. I have lived in the Middle East and know only too well how oppressed women are there, so don't give me all your BS about how we MUST accept such reactionary sexist crap in our modern day society. It is NOT a religious or even a major cultural requirement but it is extremely divisive if only because the burkha isolates the wearer from normal human interaction and contact. How is multiculturalism ever going to work in practise if EVERY culture does its own thing, irrespective of whether it is acceptable to other cultures. But then the loony left never think anything through do they? I suggest YOU go back to your red flag flying, Guardian reading, hypocritical left wing buddies whose idealistic claptrap is never grounded in any reality.
Dont expect to direct petty stereotypes at people and not recieve them in return. If you want instantly presume that I'm a "wooly minded" leftist or a male chauvinist and then label me so then I will do the same to you. If you choose to associate anyone who supports the right to wear the burqa as a wooly minded, PC-mad left-winger then I will associate those who find Islam destructive to our "culture" as a BNP supporter. I have shown no indication of my political affiliation, so dont presume to know or I'll do the same. And now I'm a "male, chauvinistic, sexist pig" right?
"Our way of life" does not dictate that a woman cannot wear a burqa, our way of life allows people to express their religion how they wish, some choose to express it through the burqa. They dont have that luxury in a lot of countries and we should be thankful that we live in somewhere that allows the freedom of choice.
Do you have evidence to back up you claim that most woman do not wear it out of their own free will, aside from anecdotal? And I'm talking about the UK here, I know full well how oppresive husbands are in Afghanistan. I remember seeing a burqa wearing woman on television defending her right to wear it. She stated that it was her personal choice, she considers it of huge importance to her religion, and in a free and tolerant country she should have the right to wear it, and to forbid her from doing so would be an infringement on her civil liberties.
I dont see why we are always compared to other countries. You might have had to respect their customs and culture elsewhere, but if you ask me it's commendable that more than one culture can thrive in the UK.
MTVN
can you please keep the BNP out of this thread.
Its is about a College using there Security Rights.
Sign Of The Times.
Agreed, that was inappropiate in this thread but it was only after being presumed to be a "wooly minded liberal" that I decided to politically stereotype her as she did me.
Mystic Mock
01-10-2010, 05:54 PM
I lived in the Middle East for four years and I can assure you that good old fashioned intolerance is alive and well and always will be in a muslim country when it comes to adjusting THEIR ways to us westerners which, by the way, I had absolutely no problem with since I had CHOSEN to live in THEIR country. Thus I had to cover up and not wear short skirts, or display bare arms or a cleavage, and would be sweltering in 50 degree heat for fear of offending their sensibilities by a flash of bare flesh. It is called respect for the host culture, its laws and norms. We do more than enough in this country already to respect others' culture and it is not too much to ask that there should be some sort of compromise from those who come here. A hijab is more than acceptable in place of the burkha which, by the way, most arab women did NOT wear except in the more remote areas of Kuwait, Saudi and Bahrain that I lived and worked in. Most muslim women find the burkha as offensive as western women do, and unless you are female you might not get the significance of what the burkha actually is. It was explained to me that it is a visual sign of ownership and possession of the woman by a man.
Banning the veil has absolutely NOTHING to do with religious intolerance but everything to do with safety and security, as well as the liberation, respect and freedom of women. The veil is a symbol of FEMALE SUBJUGATION and is abhorrent and offensive not only to most western women but also to a lot of liberated and independent muslim women. It is a demeaning subjugation imposed by muslim men and is sexist and totally retroactive to gender equality. We live in a modern society where women have fought hard for equality, and the veil is a potent and virulent symbol of the oppression and "inferiority" of women.
Far from being an intolerant country, the UK bends over backwards to accommodate all cultures, but it is now being recognised (too late) that multiculturalism does not work when every culture keeps itself separate and refuses to integrate even minimally with the mainstream culture. No-one has yet satisfactorily explained how diametrically diverse cultures can coexist in peace and harmony without some common ground being found, and MUTUAL respect fostered. Banning the burkha is common sense in this day and age - why should one section of the community be exempt from abiding by the rules and regulations the rest of us must abide by?
I'm sick of men on this forum supporting the wearing of the burkha when it is so obvious that if the boot were on the other foot, men would never be subjected to such an indignity by women.
I note you do not address your support of other so called "cultural" norms, examples of which I gave in my previous post, but then again you couldn't really, could you?
As regards prosecuting the college for banning the burkha, I hope that those colleges that still allow the burkha are similarly prosecuted for failing to practise equality in the application of their regulations, and failure to assure the safety of their students by condoning the anonymity of the burkha so that no-one knows who the hell is coming in and out of the college, or for that matter taking the exams.
coming off a guy i completely agree with you.
WOMBAI
01-10-2010, 05:54 PM
Banning a woman from wearing something out of her own free will - that is oppression.
You still dont undertsand that banning a religious garment is an infringement on civil liberties, and an infringement on religious freedom. And before you go on about how it is not techincally a requriement I'll reiterate that neither are crucuifixes, nor is the kippah for Jews. By saying that I'm not saying that the burqa and the kippah are similar, not at all, but they are both ways of somebody expressing their religion, and that is a right that freedom of religion grants.
We are not submitting to others cultural norms. If you find the burqa abhorrent and offensive then that you really do need to get over yourself and your petty attitude where you think you have the right to decide what clothing is and isnt acceptable. We are a multicultural and secular society, whether you and your BNP, Daily Mail-reading buddies like it or not, and we should therefore be tolerant of other religious and cultural customs, instead of holding them in contempt.
The number of women who wear burqas is tiny, no more than a thousand or two. Just live and let live.
And you don't understand that civil liberties do not override national security! Your priorities are screwed!
You have been told that the burka is not a religious requirement - so why do you insist on bringing it up in a religious sense - it is simply for dramatic purposes. How dare you accuse people of being racist and belonging to the BNP - that is attempted intimidation - and designed to shut people up for fear of such name-calling! Always a weapon used by those losing the argument! And you need to get over yourself - who the hell are you to be telling people how tolerant you think they should be!
arista
01-10-2010, 05:58 PM
Liberals are Welcome on here
This is thread about a College that has used its
Security Rights.
WOMBAI
01-10-2010, 06:10 PM
[QUOTE=WOMBAI;3821000]
What are you on? knocking British culture of its perch? lol British culture is made up of multicultural influence too, its not just cricket and cream teas Wombai and also you seem to think that our culture is under threat from "others", its not. This is far from a middle eastern country, what just cos a few want to wear a burqua?? it never will be. Britain is built on tolerance and freedom of choice. By banning the burqa your going against all that is British
The thread is about a college banning the burka for reasons of security - and rightly so! Burkas DO pose a security risk in public places, including buses and trains! If you can't see that - then you are the one on something!
Mystic Mock
01-10-2010, 06:20 PM
[QUOTE=WOMBAI;3821000]
What are you on? knocking British culture of its perch? lol British culture is made up of multicultural influence too, its not just cricket and cream teas Wombai and also you seem to think that our culture is under threat from "others", its not. This is far from a middle eastern country, what just cos a few want to wear a burqua?? it never will be. Britain is built on tolerance and freedom of choice. By banning the burqa your going against all that is British
when i lived in aston 3 years ago there was a survey on how many asians,blacks and whites live in aston,and here are the results.
asians 50%
whites 28%
blacks 22%
are you still telling me british culture isnt being invaded?
Shaun
01-10-2010, 06:27 PM
The thread is about a college banning the burka for reasons of security - and rightly so! Burkas DO pose a security risk in public places, including buses and trains! If you can't see that - then you are the one on something!
I find the grey area here is leading to a lot of confusion - how exactly are burkas a security threat? Surely in the event of a request for the person wearing one's identity, they could just temporarily remove it and then go about their day as normal?
I think the 'security threat' is being exaggerated too. Only the insecure and paranoid are threatened by people under a burka. And under all circumstances, when was the last time a college was targetted by terrorists, or whatever?
I just think the move is incredibly stupid and more likely to aggravate what little tensions there were.
Oh and WOMBAI for the love of God can you have a debate without all of this 'you must be on something!' BS.
WOMBAI
01-10-2010, 06:37 PM
I find the grey area here is leading to a lot of confusion - how exactly are burkas a security threat? Surely in the event of a request for the person wearing one's identity, they could just temporarily remove it and then go about their day as normal?
I think the 'security threat' is being exaggerated too. Only the insecure and paranoid are threatened by people under a burka. And under all circumstances, when was the last time a college was targetted by terrorists, or whatever?
I just think the move is incredibly stupid and more likely to aggravate what little tensions there were.
Oh and WOMBAI for the love of God can you have a debate without all of this 'you must be on something!' BS.
Maybe you should read through some of the other posts before passing such comments and direct them to the correct person! Hardly any surprise you directed them at me though, is it! :sleep:
I recommend you read the link before saying you don't see how the wearing of burkas can present a security risk! Might just give you a clue!
http://frontpagemag.com/2010/04/22/the-burqa-bomb/
Mystic Mock
01-10-2010, 06:38 PM
I find the grey area here is leading to a lot of confusion - how exactly are burkas a security threat? Surely in the event of a request for the person wearing one's identity, they could just temporarily remove it and then go about their day as normal?
I think the 'security threat' is being exaggerated too. Only the insecure and paranoid are threatened by people under a burka. And under all circumstances, when was the last time a college was targetted by terrorists, or whatever?
I just think the move is incredibly stupid and more likely to aggravate what little tensions there were.
Oh and WOMBAI for the love of God can you have a debate without all of this 'you must be on something!' BS.
no offence to muslims on here,but i never felt safe when i was in aston incase there was a terrorest living nearby,and i know its stupid to think like that but as astons population was 50% asians and i would say about 18% of them were muslims i was scared of going near them a little bit incase they were suicide bombers.
Mystic Mock
01-10-2010, 06:41 PM
and a muslim couple that used to live next door to me had a husband that beat the crap of his wife and kids,and if he could do that to his wife and kids what could he do to strangers?
Shaun
01-10-2010, 06:42 PM
Maybe you should read through some of the other posts before passing such comments and direct them to the correct person! Hardly any surprise you directed them at me though, is it! :sleep:
I recommend you read the link before saying you don't see how the wearing of burkas can present a security risk! Might just give you a clue!
http://frontpagemag.com/2010/04/22/the-burqa-bomb/
Stop shouting at me.
And the article references one example that happened in Pakistan. What bearing does that have on the education system of the United Kingdom exactly?
Mystic Mock
01-10-2010, 06:48 PM
Stop shouting at me.
And the article references one example that happened in Pakistan. What bearing does that have on the education system of the United Kingdom exactly?
well apart from america alot of muslims hate britain second.
WOMBAI
01-10-2010, 07:02 PM
Stop shouting at me.
And the article references one example that happened in Pakistan. What bearing does that have on the education system of the United Kingdom exactly?
No it doesn't - it gives several examples!
Any public place could be targeted - including colleges/uni's - if security is lax - they are most likely to go for easy targets - could be anything! Schools and colleges have been targeted by many nutters over the years - with many students killed, both here and abroad - there is no way you can say that terrorists wouldn't do so! They are hardly adverse to attacking innocent civilians!
National security aside - burkas pose a security risk in other ways in the education system! With a person's identity completely hidden - the system is laid wide open to potential abuse - cheating in exams, attendance in lectures etc - anyone could be under those things!
And you don't understand that civil liberties do not override national security! Your priorities are screwed!
You have been told that the burka is not a religious requirement - so why do you insist on bringing it up in a religious sense - it is simply for dramatic purposes. How dare you accuse people of being racist and belonging to the BNP - that is attempted intimidation - and designed to shut people up for fear of such name-calling! Always a weapon used by those losing the argument! And you need to get over yourself - who the hell are you to be telling people how tolerant you think they should be!
So we should breach civil liberties because of a minor terror threat? I keep repeating myself, less than 2000 people wear one, the threat of a burqa to national security is being blown compltely out of proportion.
I need to get over myself? You are the one who thinks they have a right to tell someone what they can and cannot wear, you are the one who thinks it should be banned because you personally find it offensive.
Although I admit I went a bit far with the BNP comment, so I apologise to Angus for that. I just resented how she equated supporting the right to wear a burqa with being a wooly minded, chauvinist liberal. You know nothing of my political views so dont presume them for me please.
Angus
01-10-2010, 07:42 PM
well apart from america alot of muslims hate britain second.
Yes and we are the target of contempt and hatred from many muslims living in our country who are free to enjoy the freedoms they were denied in the countries from whence they came. Yet they wish to continue to adhere to the same oppressive cultural practises that are clearly out of place in a progressive and liberated society such as ours.
I wouldn't bother Wombai. It's a complete waste of time trying to debate this issue with idiots like him. I can't even be arsed to respond to such a sexist bigot since he is clearly talking out of his backside. When he has maybe lived in a Muslim country for several years and interacted with the women in those countries he would understand the true meaning of oppression and being bullied into submission. Even then he would never really completely GET it since his experience would be completely different to that of a Western woman having to conform to their sexist culture.
So to sum up your opinion of me I'm a Communist, sexist, bigoted idiot whos talking out of his backside purely because I think a woman has a right to wear a burqa?
:bored:
ElProximo
01-10-2010, 11:22 PM
..we're pandering to terrorists, hysterics and right wing nuts
You aren't pandering to them. They are using you for their own gains.
James
01-10-2010, 11:27 PM
It would be best if posters avoid making remarks attacking other posters personally. Stick to the topic.
Tom4784
02-10-2010, 12:17 AM
MTVN and Netto are speaking sense, I pretty much agree with their points.
When it comes to all these 'threats to British Culture' it's quite laughable, Christianity was brought to England by the Romans and they pretty much built us up from nothing, the Anglo Saxons and Vikings left their marks too and with the British Empire we took other elements of other countries as well. Our culture basically consists of a myriad of other countries' cultures and things like Burkhas aren't threatening our culture it's just another newer element to it.
If you want to be quitessentially British go and engage in a few Pagan rituals and have a rave or two in Stone Henge because Paganism is pretty much where we started from, everything else we pretty much borrowed from other countries.
InOne
02-10-2010, 12:51 AM
MTVN and Netto are speaking sense, I pretty much agree with their points.
When it comes to all these 'threats to British Culture' it's quite laughable, Christianity was brought to England by the Romans and they pretty much built us up from nothing, the Anglo Saxons and Vikings left their marks too and with the British Empire we took other elements of other countries as well. Our culture basically consists of a myriad of other countries' cultures and things like Burkhas aren't threatening our culture it's just another newer element to it.
If you want to be quitessentially British go and engage in a few Pagan rituals and have a rave or two in Stone Henge because Paganism is pretty much where we started from, everything else we pretty much borrowed from other countries.
Usually the types you find in Bristol or Avebury, middle class kids wanting to be 'different'. :bored:
Not that that has anything to do with the topic, just felt like saying it :tongue:
WOMBAI
02-10-2010, 08:01 AM
MTVN and Netto are speaking sense, I pretty much agree with their points.
When it comes to all these 'threats to British Culture' it's quite laughable, Christianity was brought to England by the Romans and they pretty much built us up from nothing, the Anglo Saxons and Vikings left their marks too and with the British Empire we took other elements of other countries as well. Our culture basically consists of a myriad of other countries' cultures and things like Burkhas aren't threatening our culture it's just another newer element to it.
If you want to be quitessentially British go and engage in a few Pagan rituals and have a rave or two in Stone Henge because Paganism is pretty much where we started from, everything else we pretty much borrowed from other countries.
Talk about undermine your own heritage! Thankfully we don't all have such a negative attitude! Many of us are proud of our country and our roots! Britain does have its own culture and identity - and is entitled to keep it!
WOMBAI
02-10-2010, 08:21 AM
So to sum up your opinion of me I'm a Communist, sexist, bigoted idiot whos talking out of his backside purely because I think a woman has a right to wear a burqa?
:bored:
By the same token British women have the right not to have such a blatant representation of female oppression shoved in their faces on their own doorstep!
Angus is right - it is no coincidence that most supporting burkas are male - who clearly have no proper understanding of the subject, how could they! So now you are saying that the rights of Muslim women override the rights of British women!
Maybe some Muslim women do 'choose' to wear the burka - but how many really do and are saying they do because they are being pressurised by men or their culture to do so - or they have been so brainwashed, they actually believe it! It is nowhere near as clear-cut as some imply! People shouldn't take everything at face value - things aren't always what they seem!
MTVN and Netto are speaking sense, I pretty much agree with their points.
When it comes to all these 'threats to British Culture' it's quite laughable, Christianity was brought to England by the Romans and they pretty much built us up from nothing, the Anglo Saxons and Vikings left their marks too and with the British Empire we took other elements of other countries as well. Our culture basically consists of a myriad of other countries' cultures and things like Burkhas aren't threatening our culture it's just another newer element to it.
If you want to be quitessentially British go and engage in a few Pagan rituals and have a rave or two in Stone Henge because Paganism is pretty much where we started from, everything else we pretty much borrowed from other countries.
Well said Dezzy, I agree.
Usually the types you find in Bristol or Avebury, middle class kids wanting to be 'different'. :bored:
Not that that has anything to do with the topic, just felt like saying it :tongue:
Oi, I'm from Birstol :tongue:
By the same token British women have the right not to have such a blatant representation of female oppression shoved in their faces on their own doorstep!
Angus is right - it is no coincidence that most supporting burkas are male - who clearly have no proper understanding of the subject, how could they! So now you are saying that the rights of Muslim women override the rights of British women!
Maybe some Muslim women do 'choose' to wear the burka - but how many really do and are saying they do because they are being pressurised by men or their culture to do so - or they have been so brainwashed, they actually believe it! It is nowhere near as clear-cut as some imply! People shouldn't take everything at face value - things aren't always what they seem!
Well Netto said she was a female so thats your theory gone.
And we dont know the statistics as to how many UK burqa-wearers have been forced into wearing it, so it's pointless to make presumptions, but I find it unlikely that that the majority are not wearing it out of their own free will.
cupid stunt
02-10-2010, 03:53 PM
finally sumone sees sense, that burkha should be banned EVERYWHERE
Tom4784
02-10-2010, 04:18 PM
Talk about undermine your own heritage! Thankfully we don't all have such a negative attitude! Many of us are proud of our country and our roots! Britain does have its own culture and identity - and is entitled to keep it!
I'm not undermining it, I'm just highlighting the fact that we were built on multiculturism due to all the different elements British culture represents. Without the influences of other countries and cultures we wouldn't be where we are now.
Who said I'm not proud of my roots? You can stop grasping at straws now.
Jack_
02-10-2010, 04:54 PM
finally sumone sees sense, that burkha should be banned EVERYWHERE
Who the **** unbanned you? I thought you had a permaban.
WOMBAI
02-10-2010, 05:47 PM
Well said Dezzy, I agree.
Oi, I'm from Birstol :tongue:
Well Netto said she was a female so thats your theory gone.
And we dont know the statistics as to how many UK burqa-wearers have been forced into wearing it, so it's pointless to make presumptions, but I find it unlikely that that the majority are not wearing it out of their own free will.
I said MOST not ALL - so no that's not my theory gone!
Mystic Mock
02-10-2010, 06:31 PM
No it doesn't - it gives several examples!
Any public place could be targeted - including colleges/uni's - if security is lax - they are most likely to go for easy targets - could be anything! Schools and colleges have been targeted by many nutters over the years - with many students killed, both here and abroad - there is no way you can say that terrorists wouldn't do so! They are hardly adverse to attacking innocent civilians!
National security aside - burkas pose a security risk in other ways in the education system! With a person's identity completely hidden - the system is laid wide open to potential abuse - cheating in exams, attendance in lectures etc - anyone could be under those things!
i never go near anybody with them burkas because they could be hiding anything.
WOMBAI
02-10-2010, 06:37 PM
Who the **** unbanned you? I thought you had a permaban.
Careful Jack - you'll give yourself a hernia! :hugesmile:
Mystic Mock
02-10-2010, 06:40 PM
Careful Jack - you'll give yourself a hernia! :hugesmile:
his already got it.:joker:
arista
02-10-2010, 06:45 PM
Who the **** unbanned you? I thought you had a permaban.
So long as posts are within Rules
you have no worrys.
This thread is Full of Fights.
Back On Topic
this College is within its Rights.
Sign Of The Times.
Angus
02-10-2010, 08:14 PM
By the same token British women have the right not to have such a blatant representation of female oppression shoved in their faces on their own doorstep!
Angus is right - it is no coincidence that most supporting burkas are male - who clearly have no proper understanding of the subject, how could they! So now you are saying that the rights of Muslim women override the rights of British women!
Maybe some Muslim women do 'choose' to wear the burka - but how many really do and are saying they do because they are being pressurised by men or their culture to do so - or they have been so brainwashed, they actually believe it! It is nowhere near as clear-cut as some imply! People shouldn't take everything at face value - things aren't always what they seem!
It seems a lot of people on here seem to find it inconceivable that the MAJORITY of muslim women have no option BUT to wear the burkha - a refusal to do so is just not possible. It's not a matter of choice so much as a matter of doing as they are told. I lived in Kuwait, Saudi and Oman for a total of 7 years with my husband, and it's not funny to be expected not to speak unless spoken to, to walk meekly behind my husband,nor be allowed to drive (in Saudi), and not to voice any opinions on anything remotely topical or political. It was forbidden to talk with any male unless my husband was present for fear of accusations of being a loose woman (again in Saudi) and believe me you wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of the Saudi police. Kuwait was somewhat more liberal, at least I was allowed to drive a car. Note the emphasis on "allowed".
I was treated as a second class citizen which is, of course, how muslim women are still being treated today. It might be their culture, but such sexist attitudes have no place in Britain. It doesn't seem to have occurred to some FMs that banning the burkha, at least in public buildings etc, could actually be the first step in liberating these women. There are FMs banging on about how we should accommodate all cultures - fair enough but I balk at encouraging reactionary and oppressive cultural practises. Apart from the obvious security issues of concealing identity and promoting anonymity, the burkha isolates and separates the wearer from others, and of course this is the exact reason muslim men insist their women wear it.
InOne
03-10-2010, 01:47 AM
Here is a good vid. It's not quite on topic, but it is to do with how we use the word 'tolerance' and how moat people don't think outside their own little box.
yQE4orNMDAw
WOMBAI
03-10-2010, 09:05 AM
Here is a good vid. It's not quite on topic, but it is to do with how we use the word 'tolerance' and how moat people don't think outside their own little box.
yQE4orNMDAw
But Britain is supposed to welcome all these cultures and assimilate them into its society - at the expense of its own culture and way of life according to many bleeding heart liberals.
As we are now a multi-cultural society, our own historical British culture and identity are no longer important or valid, don't you know - only to be sneered at by those that seek to change the cultural demographic of this country!
Despite the fact that some cultures take liberties and attempt to abuse our hospitality and tolerance - how dare we complain! Much better to keep our heads down, obediently comply and walk around with the word 'doormat' deeply imprinted on our foreheads - after all we can't risk offending such cultures and their fragile sensibilities, even when they quite openly and blatantly offend us and ours! :sleep:
Such childish tit for tat nonsense can't be tolerated as it is our duty, as a welcoming multi-cultural society, to turn the other cheek, allegedly! Well as, the lady herself once said - this lady isn't for turning!
joeysteele
03-10-2010, 01:00 PM
i never go near anybody with them burkas because they could be hiding anything.
Massively valid point jedward fever. I went in to a store and some lads had their hoods up as it was raining heavy, They were told take the hoods off by a security guy. They did answer back and say let us get in first,the security guy said, 'we need to see who comes in and out'.
Then in come this group with the Burkha's on and nothing said at all, I just thought they could bring anything in. leave anything anywhere,then I often think who is really under there anyway ARE they all really genuine Muslim people. Really, anyone could dress like that for any reason.
That is why although I can understand the oppression of some Husbands to their wives being the reason for wearing them, it is in my view time our Govt, banned it in all public areas, all Citizens and visitors of any country in my opinion have the right to see who they are sharing, events, buildings and streets with as a right and in this time also for personal and National security.
As jedward fever said, anything could be hidden in them.
WOMBAI
03-10-2010, 03:32 PM
Massively valid point jedward fever. I went in to a store and some lads had their hoods up as it was raining heavy, They were told take the hoods off by a security guy. They did answer back and say let us get in first,the security guy said, 'we need to see who comes in and out'.
Then in come this group with the Burkha's on and nothing said at all, I just thought they could bring anything in. leave anything anywhere,then I often think who is really under there anyway ARE they all really genuine Muslim people. Really, anyone could dress like that for any reason.
That is why although I can understand the oppression of some Husbands to their wives being the reason for wearing them, it is in my view time our Govt, banned it in all public areas, all Citizens and visitors of any country in my opinion have the right to see who they are sharing, events, buildings and streets with as a right and in this time also for personal and National security.
As jedward fever said, anything could be hidden in them.
That is an obvious issue that some choose to ignore!
People are uncomfortable in that situation and hesitant to act and ask a burka wearer to remove their burka - partly out of respect and partly out of fear of the consequences - and some Muslims rely on that! It is ridiculous and noone should be put in that situation!
I wonder what will happen with these new scanning machines at airports - I hope noone is proposing that those in a burka should be exempt from being scanned, same as the rest of us! Many people don't like the idea of it and would rather not, but it is something we have to endure for the sake of security - absolutely no exceptions!
InOne
03-10-2010, 04:27 PM
But Britain is supposed to welcome all these cultures and assimilate them into its society - at the expense of its own culture and way of life according to many bleeding heart liberals.
As we are now a multi-cultural society, our own historical British culture and identity are no longer important or valid, don't you know - only to be sneered at by those that seek to change the cultural demographic of this country!
Despite the fact that some cultures take liberties and attempt to abuse our hospitality and tolerance - how dare we complain! Much better to keep our heads down, obediently comply and walk around with the word 'doormat' deeply imprinted on our foreheads - after all we can't risk offending such cultures and their fragile sensibilities, even when they quite openly and blatantly offend us and ours! :sleep:
Such childish tit for tat nonsense can't be tolerated as it is our duty, as a welcoming multi-cultural society, to turn the other cheek, allegedly! Well as, the lady herself once said - this lady isn't for turning!
Yes, but that video is going on about if Muslims are going on about Tolerence then they should take a look at themselves in the mirror. It is also funny which 'brothers and sisters' just choose to get angry about.
BB_Eye
03-10-2010, 05:04 PM
Who the **** unbanned you? I thought you had a permaban.
This
What the ****, mods?
Tom4784
03-10-2010, 08:31 PM
It wasn't a permaban guys, just a very long ban.
But Britain is supposed to welcome all these cultures and assimilate them into its society - at the expense of its own culture and way of life according to many bleeding heart liberals.
As we are now a multi-cultural society, our own historical British culture and identity are no longer important or valid, don't you know - only to be sneered at by those that seek to change the cultural demographic of this country!
Despite the fact that some cultures take liberties and attempt to abuse our hospitality and tolerance - how dare we complain! Much better to keep our heads down, obediently comply and walk around with the word 'doormat' deeply imprinted on our foreheads - after all we can't risk offending such cultures and their fragile sensibilities, even when they quite openly and blatantly offend us and ours! :sleep:
Such childish tit for tat nonsense can't be tolerated as it is our duty, as a welcoming multi-cultural society, to turn the other cheek, allegedly! Well as, the lady herself once said - this lady isn't for turning!
I might as well talk to a wall.... Our original identity is long gone. Thank the Romans for that, but they gave us the tools to go on to become the country we are now. You act like multi culturism is going to doom us all when it's what made this country what it is. You can't group people together either, You're acting like every muslim in the world wants to take away your liberties when they don't it's just like with all cultures and religions in the world it's the worst of them that get the coverage. How much coverage of Christianity has there been lately on things such as the peadophile priests, Westboro Baptist church ETC?
People focus on the worst and forsake the vast majority of people that just want to live their lives. You're judging an entire group of people on a few of the worst that have been given coverage instead of looking at it from both sides. I can see and agree that Burkhas should be banned in more delicate places that need higher security, not because muslims are a threat to society but you can't cover your face up like that in some areas and not allow hoodies and other clothes that do the same thing. In other places though it should obviously be the person's choice what they want to wear and no one else's. Plenty of Muslims would agree with that but since they don't go with the image of what the media wants Islam to be, they're not heard.
As for us being welcome matt's and hyperbole like that, Our society and Identity is based on Intergration, we wouldn't be as prominent in the world if it wasn't for the help and resources from other countries and their culture and if you can't respect that then sorry you don't respect Britain's identity as multi culturism & intergration is a massive part of our culture and it always has been.
Shasown
03-10-2010, 08:37 PM
http://www.x929.ca/shows/newsboy/wp-content/uploads/burka-sexy.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_BhC4FgEYh64/TE9yT8WiETI/AAAAAAAAB78/1eCpYZ57hhU/s1600/burka.jpg
Angus
03-10-2010, 11:30 PM
http://www.x929.ca/shows/newsboy/wp-content/uploads/burka-sexy.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_BhC4FgEYh64/TE9yT8WiETI/AAAAAAAAB78/1eCpYZ57hhU/s1600/burka.jpg
You do know that you will now have a fatwa issued against you, don't you?!!
Shasown
03-10-2010, 11:43 PM
You do know that you will now have a fatwa issued against you, don't you?!!
A fatwa is simply a religious announcement most are fairly innocuous.
If you did mean I will have muslims out hunting me or attempting to kill me, its not the first time. :wink:
Angus
04-10-2010, 06:34 AM
A fatwa is simply a religious announcement most are fairly innocuous.
If you did mean I will have muslims out hunting me or attempting to kill me, its not the first time. :wink:
The death warrant fatwas are reserved for "infidels" - after all they're not renowned for their tolerance and sense of humour about such things, that's for sure.:rolleyes:
Angus
04-10-2010, 04:04 PM
I see from today's news that hard line muslims are forcing British born muslim girls to wear the burkha in faith schools - if this is not indoctrination and sexist subjugation I don't know what is. Why are we being complicit in allowing women to be browbeaten and brainwashed into submission by these medieval bullies? By NOT banning the burkha we are their partners in crime.
In the same news I see colleges are introducing state of the art face recognition technology to heighten security at colleges. How, pray tell, is that going to work with burkha wearing students???
Glad to see that a female muslim estate agent took her muslim boss to court because he insisted she wear a head scarf at work (his own wife and daughters are forced to wear burkhas). She won £13,567 payout for discrimination since he did not require this of non muslim workers. He also harrassed her by saying she had not been brought up properly and that she had been given "too much freedom" when she was growing up.
Seriously, why are we letting people with such sexist and medieval attitudes and beliefs about women continue to demean and subjugate women in ways that are unacceptable and actually illegal for the rest of us? Perhaps it is time for British women, of all races, to start lobbying parliament to challenge such reactionary, divisive and sexist practices, and the burkha is a good way to start since it will fulfil two important functions: A ban will promote women's rights, and will also enhance safety and security by removing the anonymity of this abhorrent garment.
I see from today's news that hard line muslims are forcing British born muslim girls to wear the burkha in faith schools - if this is not indoctrination and sexist subjugation I don't know what is. Why are we being complicit in allowing women to be browbeaten and brainwashed into submission by these medieval bullies? By NOT banning the burkha we are their partners in crime.
In the same news I see colleges are introducing state of the art face recognition technology to heighten security at colleges. How, pray tell, is that going to work with burkha wearing students???
Glad to see that a female muslim estate agent took her muslim boss to court because he insisted she wear a head scarf at work (his own wife and daughters are forced to wear burkhas). She won £13,567 payout for discrimination since he did not require this of non muslim workers. He also harrassed her by saying she had not been brought up properly and that she had been given "too much freedom" when she was growing up.
Seriously, why are we letting people into this country with such sexist and medieval attitudes and beliefs about women and, worse still, allowing them to continue demeaning and subjugating women in ways that are unacceptable and actually illegal for the rest of us?
Took a look for that article and guess where I've found it - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1317393/The-British-Muslim-schools-EVERY-pupil-forced-to-wear-veil.html
If the Daily Mail haven't lost all credibility yet, then I dont what they have to do to make it happen.
dural
04-10-2010, 05:18 PM
Took a look for that article and guess where I've found it - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1317393/The-British-Muslim-schools-EVERY-pupil-forced-to-wear-veil.html
If the Daily Mail haven't lost all credibility yet, then I dont what they have to do to make it happen.
It isn't just printed in the Daily Mail - hardly likely to have made it up are they.
http://www.educationnews.org/global/101031.html
http://news1.capitalbay.com/news/the_british_muslim_schools_where.html
It isn't just printed in the Daily Mail - hardly likely to have made it up are they.
http://www.educationnews.org/global/101031.html
http://news1.capitalbay.com/news/the_british_muslim_schools_where.html
Those links are just the Daily Mail article again, just on a different site :joker:
Come back to me when you have a credible source to back it up :xyxwave:
Mystic Mock
04-10-2010, 05:23 PM
I see from today's news that hard line muslims are forcing British born muslim girls to wear the burkha in faith schools - if this is not indoctrination and sexist subjugation I don't know what is. Why are we being complicit in allowing women to be browbeaten and brainwashed into submission by these medieval bullies? By NOT banning the burkha we are their partners in crime.
In the same news I see colleges are introducing state of the art face recognition technology to heighten security at colleges. How, pray tell, is that going to work with burkha wearing students???
Glad to see that a female muslim estate agent took her muslim boss to court because he insisted she wear a head scarf at work (his own wife and daughters are forced to wear burkhas). She won £13,567 payout for discrimination since he did not require this of non muslim workers. He also harrassed her by saying she had not been brought up properly and that she had been given "too much freedom" when she was growing up.
Seriously, why are we letting people with such sexist and medieval attitudes and beliefs about women continue to demean and subjugate women in ways that are unacceptable and actually illegal for the rest of us? Perhaps it is time for British women, of all races, to start lobbying parliament to challenge such reactionary, divisive and sexist practices, and the burkha is a good way to start since it will fulfil two important functions: A ban will promote women's rights, and will also enhance safety and security by removing the anonymity of this abhorrent garment.
this.
joeysteele
04-10-2010, 05:28 PM
100% agree with angus58.
dural
04-10-2010, 05:29 PM
Those links are just the Daily Mail article again, just on a different site :joker:
Come back to me when you have a credible source to back it up :xyxwave:
Not related to the same thing just more news about how other countries are dealing with the situation.
http://www.iheu.org/ban-burqa-canadian-muslim-view
Makes for interesting reading about the Muslim view in Canada.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/05/italy-husband-of-muslim-woman-fined-for-wearing-burqa-says-he-wont-let-her-leave-the-house-anymore.html
And to suggest the Daily Mail would invent such an article is ridiculous.
Angus
04-10-2010, 05:31 PM
It isn't just printed in the Daily Mail - hardly likely to have made it up are they.
http://www.educationnews.org/global/101031.html
http://news1.capitalbay.com/news/the_british_muslim_schools_where.html
I wouldn't waste your time responding, I don't. Some people just won't admit when they're wrong, especially when they have no personal experience of Muslim culture, and especially if they happen to be MALE. They will swear black is white even if evidence to the contrary is presented to them on a plate.
This country is sleepwalking its way to a scary future, where one section of the community are allowed to continue sexist discriminatory practices with the full blessing of politically correct idiots, that are deemed illegal for the rest of us.
Not related to the same thing just more news about how other countries are dealing with the situation.
http://www.iheu.org/ban-burqa-canadian-muslim-view
Makes for interesting reading about the Muslim view in Canada.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/05/italy-husband-of-muslim-woman-fined-for-wearing-burqa-says-he-wont-let-her-leave-the-house-anymore.html
And to suggest the Daily Mail would invent such an article is ridiculous.
I'm not necessarily saying they invented it, I'm just saying that if it appears nowhere else but the biased and discredited Daily Mail, I'm not particuarly inclined to accept it as fact.
I wouldn't waste your time responding, I don't. Some people just won't admit when they're wrong, especially when they have no personal experience of Muslim culture, and especially if they happen to be MALE. They will swear black is white even if evidence to the contrary is presented to them on a plate.
This country is sleepwalking its way to a scary future, where one section of the community are allowed to continue sexist discriminatory practices with the full blessing of politically correct idiots, that are deemed illegal for the rest of us.
Yes, I get it, you're a misandrist and men have no clue about the world or society :sleep:
Shasown
04-10-2010, 06:58 PM
The death warrant fatwas are reserved for "infidels" - after all they're not renowned for their tolerance and sense of humour about such things, that's for sure.:rolleyes:
For someone who claims to have some knowledge of Islam and muslims, you show outstanding ignorance, what fatwahs involving death sentences are 'reserved' as you put it for westerners.
I believe that the greater number of fatwahs regarding death sentences are actually for muslims who commit some of the crimes/sins that some schools of Islam's regard as worthy of a death sentence, you know things like adultery, apostacy and heresy.
What fatwahs regarding infidels do you refer to?
I see from today's news that hard line muslims are forcing British born muslim girls to wear the burkha in faith schools - if this is not indoctrination and sexist subjugation I don't know what is. Why are we being complicit in allowing women to be browbeaten and brainwashed into submission by these medieval bullies? By NOT banning the burkha we are their partners in crime.
I would agree with you, but perhaps if you had researched this subject you would have found the schools are for muslims who want their children to be eductaed that way, they are voluntary fee paying schools, therefore people have a choice whether they send their children there or not.
I wouldn't waste your time responding, I don't. Some people just won't admit when they're wrong, especially when they have no personal experience of Muslim culture, and especially if they happen to be MALE. They will swear black is white even if evidence to the contrary is presented to them on a plate.
This country is sleepwalking its way to a scary future, where one section of the community are allowed to continue sexist discriminatory practices with the full blessing of politically correct idiots, that are deemed illegal for the rest of us.
Nah we arent sleepwalking anyway, most of this country of ours is fairly tolerant and understand that banning the burka would produce more problems than it solves. We also like to not get carried away with rhetoric and very little facts unlike yourself.
Mind you why not? if you cant find facts to suit your argument just make them up and try to shout loudest, your panic-mongering might actually gain the ear of the ill educated.
dural
04-10-2010, 07:20 PM
For someone who claims to have some knowledge of Islam and muslims, you show outstanding ignorance, what fatwahs involving death sentences are 'reserved' as you put it for westerners.
I believe that the greater number of fatwahs regarding death sentences are actually for muslims who commit some of the crimes/sins that some schools of Islam's regard as worthy of a death sentence, you know things like adultery, apostacy and heresy.
What fatwahs regarding infidels do you refer to?
I would agree with you, but perhaps if you had researched this subject you would have found the schools are for muslims who want their children to be eductaed that way, they are voluntary fee paying schools, therefore people have a choice whether they send their children there or not.
Nah we arent sleepwalking anyway, most of this country of ours is fairly tolerant and understand that banning the burka would produce more problems than it solves. We also like to not get carried away with rhetoric and very little facts unlike yourself.
Mind you why not? if you cant find facts to suit your argument just make them up and try to shout loudest, your panic-mongering might actually gain the ear of the ill educated.
The parents may have a choice - but I very much doubt the girls do.
Personally it is my experience that the politically correct are most often the ill-educated.
Angus
04-10-2010, 07:49 PM
For someone who claims to have some knowledge of Islam and muslims, you show outstanding ignorance, what fatwahs involving death sentences are 'reserved' as you put it for westerners.
I believe that the greater number of fatwahs regarding death sentences are actually for muslims who commit some of the crimes/sins that some schools of Islam's regard as worthy of a death sentence, you know things like adultery, apostacy and heresy.
What fatwahs regarding infidels do you refer to?
I would agree with you, but perhaps if you had researched this subject you would have found the schools are for muslims who want their children to be eductaed that way, they are voluntary fee paying schools, therefore people have a choice whether they send their children there or not.
Nah we arent sleepwalking anyway, most of this country of ours is fairly tolerant and understand that banning the burka would produce more problems than it solves. We also like to not get carried away with rhetoric and very little facts unlike yourself.
Mind you why not? if you cant find facts to suit your argument just make them up and try to shout loudest, your panic-mongering might actually gain the ear of the ill educated.
Seems it's you putting your own interpretation on what I've said. Who said all infidels are westerners? Not me. It is common knowledge that fatwahs are issued against any who dissent, ridicule or in any way challenge Islam, and as many are issued against muslims as westerners (Salman Rushdie). Nor did I claim to be any expert on Islam or muslims, all I said was that I had the misfortune, being a woman, to live in muslim countries for several years and hated and despised the way women are treated there. Naturally my opinions and attitudes have been shaped by what I personally experienced, saw and heard and by interacting and speaking with muslim women. Silly me, having the audacity to form opinions based on life experience.:rolleyes:
As for rhetoric, you seem mighty fond of that yourself - but it doesn't bother me since this is a forum for DEBATE which of course involves a fair bit of rhetoric. I note a lot of YOUR posts are full of statistics etc lifted straight from wikipedia.
You appear to be crediting me with massive influence over people's thought processes if you are accusing me of "panic-mongering". Strangely enough, as a mere woman, I am still entitled to state my opinion and have no need to run it by any one first. I am flattered if you think my opinions carry sufficient weight to "panic-monger".
As regards the brainwashing of young girls in faith schools, no doubt you find that totally acceptable - whereas I do not, and guess what? Just cos your a man doesn't make YOUR opinion more valid than mine. As regards being voluntary fee paying schools, I think you'll find a lot of them get nice fat grants from the Government - that is if you care to do YOUR research. Irrespective of that, they are NOT entitled to teach in a way that is seditious to our culture and way of life, and clearly sexist subjugation of women by coercive brainwashing is unacceptable in any society except, it seems, if you're a muslim. The fact that a lot of us find the burkha an abhorrent sign of male domination of women doesn't seem to concern you, but then you're not female are you?
It is a FACT that sexual discrimination is ILLEGAL in this country, and I do not see why we should be expected to allow one section of society to flout the law and perpetuate the subjugation of women when it has been outlawed in this country for decades.
If you can't find the facts to back up YOUR rhetoric I suggest you return to Wikipedia for your next post since that is clearly where you get your greatest inspiration.
Shasown
04-10-2010, 08:53 PM
Seems it's you putting your own interpretation on what I've said. Who said all infidels are westerners? Not me. It is common knowledge that fatwahs are issued against any who dissent, ridicule or in any way challenge Islam, and as many are issued against muslims as westerners (Salman Rushdie). Nor did I claim to be any expert on Islam or muslims, all I said was that I had the misfortune, being a woman, to live in muslim countries for several years and hated and despised the way women are treated there. Naturally my opinions and attitudes have been shaped by what I personally experienced, saw and heard and by interacting and speaking with muslim women. Silly me, having the audacity to form opinions based on life experience.:rolleyes:
As for rhetoric, you seem mighty fond of that yourself - but it doesn't bother me since this is a forum for DEBATE which of course involves a fair bit of rhetoric. I note a lot of YOUR posts are full of statistics etc lifted straight from wikipedia.
You appear to be crediting me with massive influence over people's thought processes if you are accusing me of "panic-mongering". Strangely enough, as a mere woman, I am still entitled to state my opinion and have no need to run it by any one first. I am flattered if you think my opinions carry sufficient weight to "panic-monger".
As regards the brainwashing of young girls in faith schools, no doubt you find that totally acceptable - whereas I do not, and guess what? Just cos your a man doesn't make YOUR opinion more valid than mine. As regards being voluntary fee paying schools, I think you'll find a lot of them get nice fat grants from the Government - that is if you care to do YOUR research. Irrespective of that, they are NOT entitled to teach in a way that is seditious to our culture and way of life, and clearly sexist subjugation of women by coercive brainwashing is unacceptable in any society except, it seems, if you're a muslim. The fact that a lot of us find the burkha an abhorrent sign of male domination of women doesn't seem to concern you, but then you're not female are you?
It is a FACT that sexual discrimination is ILLEGAL in this country, and I do not see why we should be expected to allow one section of society to flout the law and perpetuate the subjugation of women when it has been outlawed in this country for decades.
If you can't find the facts to back up YOUR rhetoric I suggest you return to Wikipedia for your next post since that is clearly where you get your greatest inspiration.
Would you care to show me what parts of the post you quoted came from wikipedia?
Why have you brought Salman Rushdie into the debate?
As for the sexual discrimination of women that a lot of outsiders see occuring in Islam, yes it is there, and it will continue for a long time.
Think on this if you can, the sects that insist on the woman being wrapped up so no one other than family can see her, wont change their rules just because the law in the UK says she cant wear what they consider to be decent clothing.
So what will happen?
The males of the household may be rich and willing to pay the fines indefinately. Then again they may not, but the most probable outcome especially in the poorer families is the wife is confined to the house pretty much for life.
So yeah carry on telling us how you despise the burka, how you want it not to be worn. But have a thought for what the end result could be for some of the women and girls.
Or you create enclaves of, for example, Safali muslims who then end up feeling marginalised by UK society, breeds resentment, blah blah blah, terrorist recruitment etc. blah blah blah.
Education and encouragement are better than legislation and criminalisation.
Iceman
04-10-2010, 08:56 PM
The parents may have a choice - but I very much doubt the girls do.
Personally it is my experience that the politically correct are most often the ill-educated.
Wombai don't make multiple accounts, use your original one.
Jack_
04-10-2010, 08:59 PM
Wombai don't make multiple accounts, use your original one.
:joker:
Owned.
Though I have to say, that one was a lot more convincing than most of her previous attempts at multiple accounts. You can usually tell by the '!'s, but she cut down on them this time.
Angus
04-10-2010, 09:29 PM
Would you care to show me what parts of the post you quoted came from wikipedia?
Why have you brought Salman Rushdie into the debate?
As for the sexual discrimination of women that a lot of outsiders see occuring in Islam, yes it is there, and it will continue for a long time.
Think on this if you can, the sects that insist on the woman being wrapped up so no one other than family can see her, wont change their rules just because the law in the UK says she cant wear what they consider to be decent clothing.
So what will happen?
The males of the household may be rich and willing to pay the fines indefinately. Then again they may not, but the most probable outcome especially in the poorer families is the wife is confined to the house pretty much for life.
So yeah carry on telling us how you despise the burka, how you want it not to be worn. But have a thought for what the end result could be for some of the women and girls.
Or you create enclaves of, for example, Safali muslims who then end up feeling marginalised by UK society, breeds resentment, blah blah blah, terrorist recruitment etc. blah blah blah.
Education and encouragement are better than legislation and criminalisation.
My wikipedia reference was to highlight the fact that not everything posted by some people is based on opinions arrived at through personal experience and knowledge, but from merely reading about something and then regurgitating it as an opinion.
I cannot help but have the opinions I have on muslims and the women in particular, from the simple fact that for some years I was subjected to the sort of treatment they have to put up with, but without the benefit of having first being brainwashed to be able to accept it.
I brought Salman Rushdie (a muslim) into the debate because a Fatwah was issued against him when he published The Satanic Verses because of his disrespectful portrayal of Mohammed - and I was just pointing him out as an example of a muslim "infidel" who had a death warrant against him. He had to go into hiding for many years to avoid being executed by fanatics.
There's no gain without pain - women in the West fought long and hard to get the right to vote, the right to the same education that boys enjoyed, the right to the same wages as a man for doing the same job, to be able to own property without having a male guarantor, to become doctors, lawyers etc, etc. If Muslim women are ever to be set free of course it is not going to be a smooth ride - they are going to have to cover ground that western women had to cover a century or so ago, and it has taken us decades to achieve the freedoms and rights we now have. It won't happen overnight for muslim women, and it won't be straightforward or easy.
Encouraging the perpetuation of sex discrimination in faith schools, however, is NOT the answer. All that will happen, IMO, is that instead of living in a cohesive society where men and women have equal rights, we will have a divided society where muslim women are still living in the dark ages alongside their liberated counterparts. There has to be some common sense applied, and banning the burkha - a visual and blatant sign of female subjugation - is a first step. many Muslim women in their own countries are fighting for equality, but in their male dominated hierarchies they are making little headway and often face harsh punishments for daring to rebel. We should be helping muslim women in this country to fight for their freedom from oppression, not encouraging muslim men to keep them in metaphorical chains.
The burkha is NOT a religious requirement, NOR is it a major cultural one. Apart from the obvious connotations of female suppression, it is a fact that it is a major threat to safety and security in a society whose citizens are routinely closely monitored, observed, recorded and identified, and there should be NO exceptions.
Iceman
04-10-2010, 09:41 PM
:joker:
Owned.
Though I have to say, that one was a lot more convincing than most of her previous attempts at multiple accounts. You can usually tell by the '!'s, but she cut down on them this time.
I went all detective tonight!
I thought it was odd that a new member would join, come straight to these threads on the burqa and start spouting the same crap as Wombai. Whats wrong with her old account, and why does she always delete her older posts to keep her post count at 10,000? Thats something I've noticed recently :joker:
Jack_
04-10-2010, 11:14 PM
Firstly Jack - do you think you could get something right for once in your life! This is the first time I have ever created a multiple account - maybe admin can confirm that for you - as it seems to matter to you so much!
So all that crap about it being more convincing this time only goes to show what a firtive imagination you have! :joker:
I have had problems with my computer disconnecting my link to TIBB somehow as Wombai, haven't a clue why - I couldn't find where I had written the password - so created another account. When this has happened before I told admin about it but on this occasion I didn't as I really was not that bothered about it!
Anyway I have now found my password and am using another computer account - just so I could let you know how wrong you are - yet again! :rolleyes:
Woah chill love, ****ing hell :joker:
You did create some new accounts, I remember. Not in a 'trolling' sense but I think it's because you'd lost your password or something and couldn't contact admin for whatever reason. I remember you telling me yourself once someone sussed it was you. You made a few that day.
WOMBAI
04-10-2010, 11:33 PM
Woah chill love, ****ing hell :joker:
You did create some new accounts, I remember. Not in a 'trolling' sense but I think it's because you'd lost your password or something and couldn't contact admin for whatever reason. I remember you telling me yourself once someone sussed it was you. You made a few that day.
I created new accounts because of a computer problem, was quite open about it and immediately told admin about it so they could sort out the problem! That was hardly creating multiple accounts in the way you implied!
This was slightly different, but only as much as I didn't bother telling them. I could not access my wombai account automatically, couldn't find the password - so created a new one just to pass a few comments on Serious Debates. As I don't plan to stay around - it was hardly worth telling admin about it! I am not a computer expert and don't know why this happens - but it does! Happy now!
Zippy
04-10-2010, 11:38 PM
Wombai rocks!
WOMBAI
04-10-2010, 11:46 PM
Wombai rocks!
Hi Zips - good to hear from you! :hugesmile:
They are chucking infractions my way now - someone doesn't like me - so C'est la vie!
Zippy
04-10-2010, 11:50 PM
Hi Zips - good to hear from you! :hugesmile:
They are chucking infractions my way now - someone doesn't like me - so C'est la vie!
probably the same person that has just removed my signature picture! Seriously, its been up 24hrs and now ONE mod/admin suddenly decides it needs removing. Hfft
Tom4784
05-10-2010, 01:50 AM
Hi Zips - good to hear from you! :hugesmile:
They are chucking infractions my way now - someone doesn't like me - so C'est la vie!
It's called a warning, because you're being overly aggressive with everyone when there's no need for it. Attempting to cause drama about it WILL lead to infractions however, You KNOW to talk to a mod if you disagree with any warnings or infractions so there's no excuse for it.
Shasown
05-10-2010, 03:08 AM
My wikipedia reference was to highlight the fact that not everything posted by some people is based on opinions arrived at through personal experience and knowledge, but from merely reading about something and then regurgitating it as an opinion.
I cannot help but have the opinions I have on muslims and the women in particular, from the simple fact that for some years I was subjected to the sort of treatment they have to put up with, but without the benefit of having first being brainwashed to be able to accept it.
I brought Salman Rushdie (a muslim) into the debate because a Fatwah was issued against him when he published The Satanic Verses because of his disrespectful portrayal of Mohammed - and I was just pointing him out as an example of a muslim "infidel" who had a death warrant against him. He had to go into hiding for many years to avoid being executed by fanatics.
There's no gain without pain - women in the West fought long and hard to get the right to vote, the right to the same education that boys enjoyed, the right to the same wages as a man for doing the same job, to be able to own property without having a male guarantor, to become doctors, lawyers etc, etc. If Muslim women are ever to be set free of course it is not going to be a smooth ride - they are going to have to cover ground that western women had to cover a century or so ago, and it has taken us decades to achieve the freedoms and rights we now have. It won't happen overnight for muslim women, and it won't be straightforward or easy.
Encouraging the perpetuation of sex discrimination in faith schools, however, is NOT the answer. All that will happen, IMO, is that instead of living in a cohesive society where men and women have equal rights, we will have a divided society where muslim women are still living in the dark ages alongside their liberated counterparts. There has to be some common sense applied, and banning the burkha - a visual and blatant sign of female subjugation - is a first step. many Muslim women in their own countries are fighting for equality, but in their male dominated hierarchies they are making little headway and often face harsh punishments for daring to rebel. We should be helping muslim women in this country to fight for their freedom from oppression, not encouraging muslim men to keep them in metaphorical chains.
The burkha is NOT a religious requirement, NOR is it a major cultural one. Apart from the obvious connotations of female suppression, it is a fact that it is a major threat to safety and security in a society whose citizens are routinely closely monitored, observed, recorded and identified, and there should be NO exceptions.
Let me explain something about Islam. you either are a muslim or you are an infidel. Thats it.
If you are a muslim and you decide to turn to another religion or simply disown the religion, you dont suddenly become a non muslim or an infidel, you become apostate, in other words a major sinner.
Rushdie got a fatwa issued against him because in the eyes of some mullahs he sinned big time for a Muslim, not only was he apostate but also guilty of a major heresy referring to the supposed removed verses of the qur'an.
However if you read his book you will see the more controversial part of the book dealt with a religious leader in exile leading a revolution in his homeland from the safety of overseas and was taken by Khomeini to be highly critical of himself (well it was wasnt it?) so he issued the fatwa. Which is why a lot of Muslims ignored it.
While it's all very well having the noble intent to set Muslim women free, think carefully about that, you are talking about one of the major religions of the world, which as you have seen is very backward in its mindset towards women in some quarters.
Go head to head with a part of it and it will close ranks even though lots of schools of Islam actually agree there is no place for the burka in todays society, there are a couple who condone and one which requires its use. And thats the major stumbling block a small part of it sees it as a religious requirement. And a larger section of Islamic society has it as a traditional cultural requirement.
Rightly or wrongly they dont see it as subjugation of the female rather following a guideline that their women should be modest. You can argue that their women are brainwashed into believing that view and in a way you are correct. A lot of the women are brainwashed into believing they are required. There are however some who willingly wear it.
Do you honestly think though that an outright ban will suddenly make those who believe in wearing the burka change their mind? Or will it simply mean that those women who wear it will either choose not to go out in public or even be forced by their men to stay indoors. Which in itself would be counter productive to your cause, because the so called free thinking liberated Western society would in fact be restricting religious and cultural freedom.
WOMBAI
05-10-2010, 07:31 AM
It's called a warning, because you're being overly aggressive with everyone when there's no need for it. Attempting to cause drama about it WILL lead to infractions however, You KNOW to talk to a mod if you disagree with any warnings or infractions so there's no excuse for it.
What a nice healthy dose of exaggeration, hey! The only person I could be accused of being aggressive with is Jack - not entirely unprovoked as he was, yet again, throwing around false allegations! But, hey, that's ok, apparently!
Constant inconsistencies and double standards on this forum - so infract away - you know you want to! :nono:
I will be inconsolable! Sigh! :xyxwave:
Iceman
05-10-2010, 12:16 PM
I created new accounts because of a computer problem, was quite open about it and immediately told admin about it so they could sort out the problem! That was hardly creating multiple accounts in the way you implied!
This was slightly different, but only as much as I didn't bother telling them. I could not access my wombai account automatically, couldn't find the password - so created a new one just to pass a few comments on Serious Debates. As I don't plan to stay around - it was hardly worth telling admin about it! I am not a computer expert and don't know why this happens - but it does! Happy now!
Youve been saying that for weeks and deleting your old posts but yet you're still here. Not being a regular member or whatever you called it......
WOMBAI
05-10-2010, 12:29 PM
Youve been saying that for weeks and deleting your old posts but yet you're still here. Not being a regular member or whatever you called it......
Only occasionally - and that is only because of a couple of discussions that interested me - nowhere near like I used to be! I would of thought the difference between occasional and regular was pretty self-explanatory! :rolleyes: :xyxwave:
Iceman
05-10-2010, 12:38 PM
Only occasionally - and that is only because of a couple of discussions that interested me - nowhere near like I used to be! I would of thought the difference between occasional and regular was pretty self-explanatory! :rolleyes: :xyxwave:
No I just assumed seeing that you're online everyday that you were going nowhere, kind of self explanatory don't you think?:wavey:
WOMBAI
05-10-2010, 12:53 PM
No I just assumed seeing that you're online everyday that you were going nowhere, kind of self explanatory don't you think?:wavey:
Everyday really! :joker: I rarely post - and this forum clearly needs more posters! :sleep:
Iceman
05-10-2010, 01:03 PM
Everyday really! :joker: I rarely post - and this forum clearly needs more posters! :sleep:
Yes everyday, sitting browsing....but wait you dont want to be known as a forum regular so you delete your posts......the mind boggles.
Angus
05-10-2010, 01:40 PM
Let me explain something about Islam. you either are a muslim or you are an infidel. Thats it.
If you are a muslim and you decide to turn to another religion or simply disown the religion, you dont suddenly become a non muslim or an infidel, you become apostate, in other words a major sinner.
Rushdie got a fatwa issued against him because in the eyes of some mullahs he sinned big time for a Muslim, not only was he apostate but also guilty of a major heresy referring to the supposed removed verses of the qur'an.
However if you read his book you will see the more controversial part of the book dealt with a religious leader in exile leading a revolution in his homeland from the safety of overseas and was taken by Khomeini to be highly critical of himself (well it was wasnt it?) so he issued the fatwa. Which is why a lot of Muslims ignored it.
While it's all very well having the noble intent to set Muslim women free, think carefully about that, you are talking about one of the major religions of the world, which as you have seen is very backward in its mindset towards women in some quarters.
Go head to head with a part of it and it will close ranks even though lots of schools of Islam actually agree there is no place for the burka in todays society, there are a couple who condone and one which requires its use. And thats the major stumbling block a small part of it sees it as a religious requirement. And a larger section of Islamic society has it as a traditional cultural requirement.
Rightly or wrongly they dont see it as subjugation of the female rather following a guideline that their women should be modest. You can argue that their women are brainwashed into believing that view and in a way you are correct. A lot of the women are brainwashed into believing they are required. There are however some who willingly wear it.
Do you honestly think though that an outright ban will suddenly make those who believe in wearing the burka change their mind? Or will it simply mean that those women who wear it will either choose not to go out in public or even be forced by their men to stay indoors. Which in itself would be counter productive to your cause, because the so called free thinking liberated Western society would in fact be restricting religious and cultural freedom.
I am tired of arguing the point that muslims have no right to flout our laws with regard to their treatment of women. Just because a practise is a cultural norm in the countries they come from does not mean we have to accept it over here. Sex discrimination in this country is an offence, and muslims are not above our laws.
"All it takes for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing". By suggesting we just allow them to get on with it, you are saying we must accept abhorrent practices in our society because it is "their culture". Well I beg to differ - probably as a woman I am always going to feel much more strongly about this issue than a man - but I refuse to accept that we have to kow tow and tolerate sex discrimination in our midst, and what's more allow faith schools to perpetuate the myth that women are inferior to men, by allowing them to indoctrinate and brainwash their female pupils. You would think after several centuries muslims would have progressed to some level of equality between the sexes.
Banning the burkha will be the first step towards the emancipation of these women who are treated as second class citizens by their male counterparts. Who said anything about "suddenly"? - no pain, no gain is the mantra - it might take decades to change muslim attitudes towards women but if they choose to live in the west amongst emancipated western women then they should not be allowed to continue flouting the law by their domination of women.
Your casual comment that there are some women who wear the burkha willingly is flawed, since a brainwashed person's compliance should not be confused with willingness, but rather a reluctance to be punished by their men folk for non-compliance. I would also point out what any casual obsever can see for themselves, that the burkha is not universally worn by muslim women. Most enlightened muslims do not require their women to wear the burkha and respected muslim scholars have acknowledged it is not a requirement mentioned in the Qu'ran. It is simply a legacy of some men's interpretation of "dressing modestly" that they have used to their advantage, about 500 years ago. It is sad that in 500 years there has been virtually no progress with regard to women's rights. I therefore take issue with your comment that "the larger section of Islamic society has it as a traditional cultural requirement". This is NOT true.
The issue of the subjugation of women aside (which in itself is unacceptable in this country), it is a garment that anonymises and conceals its wearers who should not be allowed to flout the requirement these days to be identifiable and accountable, particularly in public areas. The sooner it is banned the better.
WOMBAI
05-10-2010, 02:02 PM
Yes everyday, sitting browsing....but wait you dont want to be known as a forum regular so you delete your posts......the mind boggles.
Oh you are a know-it-all aren't you! You presume to know the reason why I delete my posts - like many on here you are quick to make assumptions based on nothing more than your own pre-conceptions! You know nothing!
I AM a regular on another forum - and whilst on there - I sometimes dip in here for a nose, nothing more! Ok with you! :sleep:
PS your customer service skills stink!
BB_Eye
05-10-2010, 02:22 PM
I agree the veil is nothing more than a product of Wahhabism and the more radical section of Islam, which I would be lying of I said I didn't hate and didn't want to see challenged. But freedom to worship is freedom to worship, we can't make exceptions.
I think a better and more radical solution would be to get as many Islamic and non-Islamic/secular children as possible to mix with eachother and harsh measures against segregation in schools. It doesn't totally account for children in Islamic faith schools, but there are still plenty of state school children from conservative Islamic families in areas like Bethnal Green, Bradford, etc who will never get the opportunity to aquaint themselves with people of a more modern, enlightened mindset, and likewise, many other children from secular families who will suffer from lack of exposure to other religions and communities.
There are untold benefits from getting different communities and cultures to interact more with eachother. A great example being the achievements of the US Supreme Court under the the leadership of Earl Warren which is largely responsible for the melting pot America is today. With this in mind, perhaps it is time that state-funded faith schools ("Islamic schools" and "Christian schools" sounding unpleasantlly reminiscent of "black schools" and "white schools") were laid to rest once and for all.
WOMBAI
05-10-2010, 02:36 PM
I am tired of arguing the point that muslims have no right to flout our laws with regard to their treatment of women. Just because a practise is a cultural norm in the countries they come from does not mean we have to accept it over here. Sex discrimination in this country is an offence, and muslims are not above our laws.
"All it takes for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing". By suggesting we just allow them to get on with it, you are saying we must accept abhorrent practices in our society because it is "their culture". Well I beg to differ - probably as a woman I am always going to feel much more strongly about this issue than a man - but I refuse to accept that we have to kow tow and tolerate sex discrimination in our midst, and what's more allow faith schools to perpetuate the myth that women are inferior to men, by allowing them to indoctrinate and brainwash their female pupils. You would think after several centuries muslims would have progressed to some level of equality between the sexes.
Banning the burkha will be the first step towards the emancipation of these women who are treated as second class citizens by their male counterparts. Who said anything about "suddenly"? - no pain, no gain is the mantra - it might take decades to change muslim attitudes towards women but if they choose to live in the west amongst emancipated western women then they should not be allowed to continue flouting the law by their domination of women.
Your casual comment that there are some women who wear the burkha willingly is flawed, since a brainwashed person's compliance should not be confused with willingness, but rather a reluctance to be punished by their men folk for non-compliance. I would also point out what any casual obsever can see for themselves, that the burkha is not universally worn by muslim women. Most enlightened muslims do not require their women to wear the burkha and respected muslim scholars have acknowledged it is not a requirement mentioned in the Qu'ran. It is simply a legacy of some men's interpretation of "dressing modestly" that they have used to their advantage, about 500 years ago. It is sad that in 500 years there has been virtually no progress with regard to women's rights. I therefore take issue with your comment that "the larger section of Islamic society has it as a traditional cultural requirement". This is NOT true.
The issue of the subjugation of women aside (which in itself is unacceptable in this country), it is a garment that anonymises and conceals its wearers who should not be allowed to flout the requirement these days to be identifiable and accountable, particularly in public areas. The sooner it is banned the better.
I think the paragraphs below from the Muslim view in Canada say it all!
Misuse of religion for political ends
We believe that the facemask worn by some Muslim women [is about] political symbolism that reflects the contempt of radical Islamist groups for Western civilisation. Today, the only forces that demand Muslim women to cover their faces are: the Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, the Arab World [and Europe], Al-Qaeda, and the Saudi religious establishment. All four groups see women as a source of sin and objects of sexuality, and Canada and the freedom of women in Canada and the West as manifestations of evil sexual depravity. Yet it is worth noting that leading clerics and scholars from both the Shia and Sunni communities have stated quite explicitly that the burka or niqab are not an Islamic requirement, but a cultural and tribal custom.
The MCC believes therefore that the wearing of a facemask is not a religious issue and the argument that it has the protection of the Charter, as ‘freedom of religion’, does not withstand scrutiny. A political symbol does not have the status of religious belief, especially if its meaning is rejection of and contempt for western civilization, and for the women who exercise their hard fought right to not be judged as mere sexual objects and the source of sin. Pressure on young girls to conform to the belief that they are sources of sin was demonstrated in Montreal in 2006 when the head of a mosque told young girls that if they did not cover themselves, they risked getting raped and might end up as unwed mothers. He went on to say that on the Day of Judgment, God would punish these girls for getting raped because they enticed the rapist by not covering themselves.
As a nation, a country and a society, [Canada has] travelled over 200 years to ensure that women are not considered second-class citizens or the possessions of men. We can ill afford to let culture or tribal custom compromise the equality of women.
Angus
05-10-2010, 02:42 PM
I agree the veil is nothing more than a product of Wahhabism and the more radical section of Islam, which I would be lying of I said I didn't hate and didn't want to see challenged. But freedom to worship is freedom to worship, we can't make exceptions.
I think a better and more radical solution would be to get as many Islamic and non-Islamic/secular children as possible to mix with eachother and harsh measures against segregation in schools. It doesn't totally account for children in Islamic faith schools, but there are still plenty of state school children from conservative Islamic families in areas like Bethnal Green, Bradford, etc who will never get the opportunity to aquaint themselves with people of a more modern, enlightened mindset, and likewise, many other children from secular families who will suffer from lack of exposure to other religions and communities.
There are untold benefits from getting different communities and cultures to interact more with eachother. A great example being the achievements of the US Supreme Court under the the leadership of Earl Warren which is largely responsible for the melting pot America is today. With this in mind, perhaps it is time that state-funded faith schools ("Islamic schools" and "Christian schools" sounding unpleasantlly reminiscent of "black schools" and "white schools") were laid to rest once and for all.
I agree with everything you say, but then my debate on here has not been about inhibiting anyone's freedom to worship who or what the hell they like. I also agree that faith schools of any religion or denomination are an anachronism in this day and age, because it is usually about exclusivity rather than inclusivity.
My main problem is with cultures that promote women as inferior beings and treat them accordingly - such cultures have no business practising sex discrimination with impugnity when the rest of us abide by the laws of this country. The West has moved on in 500 years and recognises that all are equal (including WOMEN) - it seems Islam is a few centuries behind. There is absolutely no argument for compromise on our part if it means a section of society is allowed to act illegally. The argument has sod all to do with religion or culture, but about the demands of one section of society to have the right to act outside the law. How about our right to expect every citizen of this country to be equally accountable under the law and equally entitled to respect and consideration, or is it the case that when it comes to women's rights, they are not seen as worthy of preservation?
Angus
05-10-2010, 02:55 PM
I think the paragraphs below from the Muslim view in Canada say it all!
Misuse of religion for political ends
We believe that the facemask worn by some Muslim women [is about] political symbolism that reflects the contempt of radical Islamist groups for Western civilisation. Today, the only forces that demand Muslim women to cover their faces are: the Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, the Arab World [and Europe], Al-Qaeda, and the Saudi religious establishment. All four groups see women as a source of sin and objects of sexuality, and Canada and the freedom of women in Canada and the West as manifestations of evil sexual depravity. Yet it is worth noting that leading clerics and scholars from both the Shia and Sunni communities have stated quite explicitly that the burka or niqab are not an Islamic requirement, but a cultural and tribal custom.
The MCC believes therefore that the wearing of a facemask is not a religious issue and the argument that it has the protection of the Charter, as ‘freedom of religion’, does not withstand scrutiny. A political symbol does not have the status of religious belief, especially if its meaning is rejection of and contempt for western civilization, and for the women who exercise their hard fought right to not be judged as mere sexual objects and the source of sin. Pressure on young girls to conform to the belief that they are sources of sin was demonstrated in Montreal in 2006 when the head of a mosque told young girls that if they did not cover themselves, they risked getting raped and might end up as unwed mothers. He went on to say that on the Day of Judgment, God would punish these girls for getting raped because they enticed the rapist by not covering themselves.
As a nation, a country and a society, [Canada has] travelled over 200 years to ensure that women are not considered second-class citizens or the possessions of men. We can ill afford to let culture or tribal custom compromise the equality of women.
The voice of commonsense, sadly lacking in this country - it is absolutely nonsensical that such medieval attitudes are tolerated in our society. If people come to settle in this country they MUST obey our laws, and the rights of western women should not be over-ridden to satisfy the misguided politically correct brigade. I note that not one single female FM has spoken up in favour of the burkha, only men who can afford to be oh so tolerant since it doesn't really bother them, does it?
Tom4784
05-10-2010, 04:01 PM
Wombai, if it quacks like a duck and acts like a duck then it's a duck. You're regurlarly on here and you regurlarly post. You're a regular member.
The voice of commonsense, sadly lacking in this country - it is absolutely nonsensical that such medieval attitudes are tolerated in our society. If people come to settle in this country they MUST obey our laws, and the rights of western women should not be over-ridden to satisfy the misguided politically correct brigade. I note that not one single female FM has spoken up in favour of the burkha, only men who can afford to be oh so tolerant since it doesn't really bother them, does it?
NettoSuperstar is female I believe. Not everyone is into misandry as much as you..
Iceman
05-10-2010, 04:14 PM
Oh you are a know-it-all aren't you! You presume to know the reason why I delete my posts - like many on here you are quick to make assumptions based on nothing more than your own pre-conceptions! You know nothing!
I AM a regular on another forum - and whilst on there - I sometimes dip in here for a nose, nothing more! Ok with you! :sleep:
PS your customer service skills stink!
No I know because you dont want to go over 10K which is just plain stupid nevermind immature.
I don't see why you dont just give it up you're a regular here and everyone knows it.
Also if you have a problem with the way I have ever handled anything you should report the post or get in contact with us.
(By the by your attitude could do with a facelift no need to argue with everyone about everything)
arista
05-10-2010, 04:46 PM
NettoSuperstar is female I believe. Not everyone is into misandry as much as you..
Yes
NettoAsdaWalmart is a lady.
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