Ofsted inspectors have approved the Veil for Muslim Schools

[arista]

Odsted have this wrong
it will only get worse.

11 year olds do not need this backward step




"At least three Muslim faith schools
are forcing girls as young as 11
to wear face-covering veils with the blessing of Ofsted inspectors,
it emerged yesterday."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1317393/The-British-Muslim-schools-EVERY-pupil-forced-to-wear-veil.html#ixzz11PWO1och


Sign Of The Times.

[Angus]

I have just commented about this on your other thread Arista - talk about a hundred steps backwards. This is 2010 not 1510. Why on earth are we pandering to this visible and abhorrent sexist sign of female subjugation? Is no-one going to step in and help these BRITISH female muslims to gain equality and freedom? I feel sick to my stomach that these girls are being brainwashed, coerced and intimidated in a society like ours which supposedly promotes equality of the sexes, unless of course you happen to be muslim.

[arista]

I have just commented about this on your other thread Arista - talk about a hundred steps backwards. This is 2010 not 1510. Why on earth are we pandering to this visible and abhorrent sexist sign of female subjugation? Is no-one going to step in and help these BRITISH female muslims to gain equality and freedom? I feel sick to my stomach that these girls are being brainwashed, coerced and intimidated in a society like ours which supposedly promotes equality of the sexes, unless of course you happen to be muslim.


This Ofsted
I blame them.

[MTVN]

I dont trust the Daily Mail much though tbh.

[arista]

I dont trust the Daily Mail much though tbh.


Fair enough.
The D.Mail gets over angry - that what they are best at.

It is only 3 Schools
it was also on TV & Radio news today.

[Mystic Mock]

I have just commented about this on your other thread Arista - talk about a hundred steps backwards. This is 2010 not 1510. Why on earth are we pandering to this visible and abhorrent sexist sign of female subjugation? Is no-one going to step in and help these BRITISH female muslims to gain equality and freedom? I feel sick to my stomach that these girls are being brainwashed, coerced and intimidated in a society like ours which supposedly promotes equality of the sexes, unless of course you happen to be muslim.

im to young to do anything anyway.:hugesmile:

[dural]

I dont trust the Daily Mail much though tbh.

Why, because lefties on here don't like the Mail's politics and attempt to undermine such articles.

[MTVN]

Fair enough.
The D.Mail gets over angry - that what they are best at.

It is only 3 Schools
it was also on TV & Radio news today.

Yes I agree, they do.

Where else has this been covered arista? I've only seen the Mail's article on it, and even if they're 100% correct with what they say, the blame lies with Ofsted, it isnt a reason to discriminate against burqa-wearers as a whole.

[MTVN]

Why, because lefties on here don't like the Mail's politics and attempt to undermine such articles.

I'm not a "leftie".

[Angus]

Well no doubt the Muslim Schools in question will be filing High Court writs as we speak because the articles aren't true:rolleyes: I won't be holding my breath though because we all know that the articles ARE correct. If Ofsted give in to one or two "test" schools, watch as the rest of them clamour for the same "rights". Another massive step backwards for women's rights. I can only assume the men who agree with these reactionary practices are male, chauvinist pigs.

[dural]

Yes I agree, they do.

Where else has this been covered arista? I've only seen the Mail's article on it, and even if they're 100% correct with what they say, the blame lies with Ofsted, it isnt a reason to discriminate against burqa-wearers as a whole.

You should read that article about how Muslims in Canada feel about women wearing the burka on the other thread - from the horse's mouth and you certainly can't accuse them of having an agenda.

Come back to me after reading that - and tell me that firstly the burka is worn by choice, secondly it doesn't represent female oppression and thirdly the wearing of it in public it does not pose a security threat to every person living in this country.

[arista]

Yes I agree, they do.

Where else has this been covered arista? I've only seen the Mail's article on it, and even if they're 100% correct with what they say, the blame lies with Ofsted, it isnt a reason to discriminate against burqa-wearers as a whole.


LBC and Radio 5 had it.
And ITV1 "AT" 5PM show debated it.

[Tom]

I'm going to create a new religion where religious clothing includes a balaclava and a hoodie. Lets see if I'm allowed to wear that in public places

[InOne]

Did anyone watch that doc about Muslim faith schools a bit a ago? That pretty much confirmed it anyway. They were all in veils, and there was a 9 year old girl telling her 18 year old sister she is going to Hell for not wearing it. It's just wrong.

[Niall]

Hmm thats wrong I guess if the children are being forced to wear the full-faced veil, but I still believe that they should have the right to wear the veil should they so choose. I do disagree with the full-faced veil though - the veil where the face is visible is a lot more friendly. At least it isn't as bad as Muslim countries though - they actually wear veils that cover the entire face including the eyes! O.o

[dural]

Did anyone watch that doc about Muslim faith schools a bit a ago? That pretty much confirmed it anyway. They were all in veils, and there was a 9 year old girl telling her 18 year old sister she is going to Hell for not wearing it. It's just wrong.

Indoctrination at its worst! How can anyone really believe that a Muslim woman has free choice when they grow up in such an environment! People are so naive - and I think some British men are quite happy to see women play such a subservient role - and secretly, even if not big enough to admit, wish British women were more like it. No wonder it is mainly men that support it.

[Angus]

I'm going to create a new religion where religious clothing includes a balaclava and a hoodie. Lets see if I'm allowed to wear that in public places

Go for it - No doubt some politically correct moron will back your right to mug old ladies and urinate in public if you tell them its a religious requirement.

Common sense is no longer alive and well in Britain.

[InOne]

Indoctrination at its worst! How can anyone really believe that a Muslim woman has free choice when they grow up in such an environment! People are so naive - and I think some British men are quite happy to see women play such a subservient role - and secretly, even if not big enough to admit, wish British women were more like it. No wonder it is mainly men that support it.

The 'freedom of choice' thing is all a cover. It deflects the whole point, and people will ramble on 'freedom of choice' for hours. But the real point is that it is doing damage to these young girls to have such views put in their mind at such an early age. All this PC nonsense doesn't help anyone, because basically it's sweeping it under the rug. In a way they're worse than the people who speak against it because they're basically saying "Their culture, their rules". They will alway bring up the fact they're "British Muslims" yet are less willing to help them than anyone.

[MTVN]

The 'freedom of choice' thing is all a cover. It deflects the whole point, and people will ramble on 'freedom of choice' for hours. But the real point is that it is doing damage to these young girls to have such views put in their mind at such an early age. All this PC nonsense doesn't help anyone, because basically it's sweeping it under the rug. In a way they're worse than the people who speak against it because they're basically saying "Their culture, their rules". They will alway bring up the fact they're "British Muslims" yet are less willing to help them than anyone.

I just dont think it's my place to tell a Muslim woman that they are wrong for wearing a burqa if it's done out of her own free will.

[InOne]

I just dont think it's my place to tell a Muslim woman that they are wrong for wearing a burqa if it's done out of her own free will.

We'll never know anyway. All pretty close knit communities and don't talk to other much if they don't need to. Bascially like what the Jews did.

[MTVN]

We'll never know anyway. All pretty close knit communities and don't talk to other much if they don't need to. Bascially like what the Jews did.

Yeah, that is true.

[dural]

I just dont think it's my place to tell a Muslim woman that they are wrong for wearing a burqa if it's done out of her own free will.

Aren't you missing the point though - what is the likelihood that women growing up in such an environment are able to express free will. I think many men often ignore that because they don't care.

[Shasown]

So what you are saying is regardless of the parents wishes or whatever school of islam (a bit like christian denominations) the particular founders governors and board of a school decide, they have no rights to do that?

The school is a voluntary fee paying school, if you dont want your daughter educated like that dont send her. There are other state run Muslim schools and other provate Muslim schools.

Its not *******ing rocket science is it?

[Angus]

So what you are saying is regardless of the parents wishes or whatever school of islam (a bit like christian denominations) the particular founders governors and board of a school decide, they have no rights to do that?

The school is a voluntary fee paying school, if you dont want your daughter educated like that dont send her. There are other state run Muslim schools and other provate Muslim schools.

Its not *******ing rocket science is it?

Well apparently it clearly is to you! If it is a FEE PAYING school it is clearly only accessible to muslims who can afford to pay the fees - duh! The state run muslim schools ALSO do a great job of indoctrinating little girls for a life of servitude and submission to men, but they are constrained by the fact that they rely totally on government funding, so are unable (as yet) to practise full blown brainwashing. Perhaps you are also aware that, unlike christian faith schools who are forced to take a proportion of non christians, no such compulsion is placed on state muslim schools who refuse to take non muslims.

[Shasown]

Well apparently it clearly is to you! If it is a FEE PAYING school it is clearly only accessible to muslims who can afford to pay the fees - duh! The state run muslim schools ALSO do a great job of indoctrinating little girls for a life of servitude and submission to men, but they are constrained by the fact that they rely totally on government funding, so are unable (as yet) to practise full blown brainwashing. Perhaps you are also aware that, unlike christian faith schools who are forced to take a proportion of non christians, no such compulsion is placed on state muslim schools who refuse to take non muslims.

You wouldnt like to put your money where mouth is on that little piece of gen there would you and prove that one?

If we allow Catholics, Jews etc to have thier own schools whether they be state assisted or private why shouldnt Muslims be able to have theirs too, or are you saying they should be treated separately because they are simply muslims and you dont agree with the way they treat women.

Personally I wouldnt send my children to a Muslim school. But that is purely because of my distaste for Islam. But if people do want to send their children there, then why not? It is there choice for their children. Or would you prefer to deny them the choice they wish and just have little schools that you approve of?

As for the garbage about brainwashing, dont you think the parents and family will be doing that anyway in most cases?

[Angus]

You wouldnt like to put your money where mouth is on that little piece of gen there would you and prove that one?

If we allow Catholics, Jews etc to have thier own schools whether they be state assisted or private why shouldnt Muslims be able to have theirs too, or are you saying they should be treated separately because they are simply muslims and you dont agree with the way they treat women.

Personally I wouldnt send my children to a Muslim school. But that is purely because of my distaste for Islam. But if people do want to send their children there, then why not? It is there choice for their children. Or would you prefer to deny them the choice they wish and just have little schools that you approve of?

As for the garbage about brainwashing, dont you think the parents and family will be doing that anyway in most cases?

I suggest you try reading what I actually said. Christian schools have been forced by legislation to allot a percentage of their places to children from other denominations. Muslim schools however refuse to take children from other faiths, (even supposing anyone would want to send their kids there), and there is no such legal compulsion on them. You really have a very poor grasp of Islam if you do not understand that it is not just a religion but an holistic way of life that permeates every thought, every action, every deed in a way that other religions do not. Central to Islam is the belief that women are inferior beings who are only in the world to do the bidding of men and to serve them without question. Before they are married they are the property of their male relatives, once they are married they become the property of their husband. She is never her own person. From the moment a girl is born she is indoctrinated to that belief and she faces a life of submission to men. If you do not understand why I, as a woman, find that offensive and abhorrent, that's not my problem.

[Shasown]

I suggest you try reading what I actually said. Christian schools have been forced by legislation to allot a percentage of their places to children from other denominations. Muslim schools however refuse to take children from other faiths, (even supposing anyone would want to send their kids there), and there is no such legal compulsion on them. You really have a very poor grasp of Islam if you do not understand that it is not just a religion but an holistic way of life that permeates every thought, every action, every deed in a way that other religions do not. Central to Islam is the belief that women are inferior beings who are only in the world to do the bidding of men and to serve them without question. Before they are married they are the property of their male relatives, once they are married they become the property of their husband. She is never her own person. From the moment a girl is born she is indoctrinated to that belief and she faces a life of submission to men. If you do not understand why I, as a woman, find that offensive and abhorrent, that's not my problem.

I would suggest you try writing what you want to say then. Muslim run state schools are under the same legislation for state funding as Christian run schools. Opting out of religious type education and prayer sessions is mandatory, complaints upheld against non complying schools could restrict or delay funding.

As for understanding Islam, yes i do understand it and the nature of life of some adherents to it. But what you are suggesting doesnt apply to all of Islam.

Your problem is you like to tar people, you dont like ALL Islam because of certain school's attitudes to women, you dont like any man to disagree with your opinion, if he does he is misogynist.

Sorry I am male, I dare to disagree with you and I am not misogynistic. I am a realist. You cant legislate peoples attitudes, nor can you decide what people should or shouldnt believe, nor the religion they follow.

[Tom4784]

The Daily Mail is hardly a source to take seriously, You'd get a more balanced view from a BNP newsletter. If it is true then I disagree vehemently but then again that article doesn't comment on the parent's reaction, as expected. Daily Mail can't allow muslims to be portrayed a truthful light since they're all bloodthirsty extremists after our civil liberties obviously. :joker:

Chances a good percentage of the parents are as outraged at this is other people are. I expect the student Body to drop in number considerably. No one should be forced to wear the Burkha but 3 schools do not represent all muslims so it's unfair to judge them as so.

[Angus]

I would suggest you try writing what you want to say then. Muslim run state schools are under the same legislation for state funding as Christian run schools. Opting out of religious type education and prayer sessions is mandatory, complaints upheld against non complying schools could restrict or delay funding.

As for understanding Islam, yes i do understand it and the nature of life of some adherents to it. But what you are suggesting doesnt apply to all of Islam.

Your problem is you like to tar people, you dont like ALL Islam because of certain school's attitudes to women, you dont like any man to disagree with your opinion, if he does he is misogynist.

Sorry I am male, I dare to disagree with you and I am not misogynistic. I am a realist. You cant legislate peoples attitudes, nor can you decide what people should or shouldnt believe, nor the religion they follow.



No, I do not like ALL Islam, because central to Islamic ideology is the subservience of women, and I could never subscribe to that, nor should I as a western woman living in my own country be expected to accept and/or ignore the subservience of any woman, from any culture.

Of course you can legislate people's attitudes - why do you think we have laws covering racial and sexual discrimination, laws that legislate against homophobia, disability discrimination etc etc? I don't give a toss what people BELIEVE or what RELIGION they follow - where in any of my posts have I said anything of the sort? My point is that no-one coming to this country should be allowed to practice discriminations that are ILLEGAL and UNACCEPTABLE in our society, and Muslims are no exception.

It's not unreasonable of me to believe that men who go along with the subjugation of women are misogynistic since I would expect anyone, male or female, to condemn such blatant sex discrimination.

[Angus]

The Daily Mail is hardly a source to take seriously, You'd get a more balanced view from a BNP newsletter. If it is true then I disagree vehemently but then again that article doesn't comment on the parent's reaction, as expected. Daily Mail can't allow muslims to be portrayed a truthful light since they're all bloodthirsty extremists after our civil liberties obviously. :joker:

Chances a good percentage of the parents are as outraged at this is other people are. I expect the student Body to drop in number considerably. No one should be forced to wear the Burkha but 3 schools do not represent all muslims so it's unfair to judge them as so.

Have you even bothered reading the whole thread - it has been reported from other news sources and let's face it if it were untrue, the muslims would be issuing their high court writs as I type, but that ain't going to happen, because it happens to be the truth.

[Tom4784]

Have you even bothered reading the whole thread - it has been reported from other news sources and let's face it if it were untrue, the muslims would be issuing their high court writs as I type, but that ain't going to happen, because it happens to be the truth.

Did you even bother to read my post? I said if it's true then I disagree with it but you can't judge a group of people on the actions of a few. I never said it wasn't true only that chances are the Daily Mail reported it in a biased manner or that it may have exagerated events.

Read my posts before you critique them in future.

[arista]

"The Daily Mail is hardly a source to take seriously"

This was debated on LBC and ITV1's "AT" 5PM show.

[Angus]

Did you even bother to read my post? I said if it's true then I disagree with it but you can't judge a group of people on the actions of a few. I never said it wasn't true only that chances are the Daily Mail reported it in a biased manner or that it may have exagerated events.

Read my posts before you critique them in future.

I will feel free to critique yours or anyone else's posts in the future if I feel like it, since that is the nature of the forum beast, and I don't require your permission to do so. Once you post expect a reaction, especially when it's a dismissive one such as yours before you had even bothered to check out the authenticity of the story.

[Tom4784]

I will feel free to critique yours or anyone else's posts in the future if I feel like it, since that is the nature of the forum beast, and I don't require your permission to do so. Once you post expect a reaction, especially when it's a dismissive one such as yours before you had even bothered to check out the authenticity of the story.

Yes but you can't have a go at me, acusing me of not reading the articles when you yourself didn't read my post properly. That's just hypocritical. I'm being dismissive because the Daily Mail is a piss poor excuse of a newspaper and I merely wanted to hear both sides of the story, something very basic that all newspapers should adhere to. Sorry I'm not wailing like a banshee in vehement disagreement with the story because simply we do not know all the facts. Like you said in that post You're free to critique my post (Bearing in mind you actually read it first next time) so why am I not allowed to critique a source? Once again, hypocritical.

[Tom4784]

"The Daily Mail is hardly a source to take seriously"

This was debated on LBC and ITV1's "AT" 5PM show.

lol ITV, It doesn't change the facts that we haven't heard the opinions of the parents and such, instead we're lead to believe that they might be fine and dandy with it that just fuels the media made image that Islam is a slowly creeping monster seeking to take away our liberties.

[Shasown]

Of course you can legislate people's attitudes - why do you think we have laws covering racial and sexual discrimination, laws that legislate against homophobia, disability discrimination etc etc? I don't give a toss what people BELIEVE or what RELIGION they follow - where in any of my posts have I said anything of the sort? My point is that no-one coming to this country should be allowed to practice discriminations that are ILLEGAL and UNACCEPTABLE in our society, and Muslims are no exception.

It's not unreasonable of me to believe that men who go along with the subjugation of women are misogynistic since I would expect anyone, male or female, to condemn such blatant sex discrimination.

Surely then you should start a little closer to home, how about forcing the Roman Catholic Church to ordain women and have them allow women to serve at all levels within it?

As for not giving a toss about what a person believes or the religion they follow, its apparent you do. Read the above paragraph. Is the RC not as guilty of sexual discrimination? So its okay for them but not Muslims to be discriminatory?

Incisentally you talk about people being discriminatory but do you have any proof of this, if a woman who wears the veil says she wants to wear it, do you automatically assume she is being forced to say that or has been brainwashed. But do you have any concrete proof that women are forced by men to wear the burka?

[Angus]

Surely then you should start a little closer to home, how about forcing the Roman Catholic Church to ordain women and have them allow women to serve at all levels within it?

As for not giving a toss about what a person believes or the religion they follow, its apparent you do. Read the above paragraph. Is the RC not as guilty of sexual discrimination? So its okay for them but not Muslims to be discriminatory?

Incisentally you talk about people being discriminatory but do you have any proof of this, if a woman who wears the veil says she wants to wear it, do you automatically assume she is being forced to say that or has been brainwashed. But do you have any concrete proof that women are forced by men to wear the burka?

Why deflect attention away from the debate in hand? We are not talking about RELIGION here since the burkha is NOT a religious requirement. As regards the ordainment of women priests, since Roman Catholicism is a religion that promotes the ascendancy of males over females, one would assume it is a religion of CHOICE for those who wish to follow it, including women. Since a choice is involved, it is not reasonable to expect religious doctrine to be changed to accommodate my views, which explains why I am NOT a Roman catholic! Incidentally I am against all organised religion since it's just another form of brainwashing and indoctrination.

As I said before Islam is not only a religion, it is a complete way of life. As regards my views on women being forced to wear the burkha, I think it would be completely reasonable for anyone to suppose that a female child brought up in a muslim household where strict doctrine is enforced, IS brainwashed. Furthermore, I spent several years living in the Middle East during which I worked and socialised with muslim women almost exclusively since, as a woman, I was forbidden from doing so with males unless my husband was present.

I learnt a hell of a lot from those women, and witnessed their way of life first hand, so please don't bleat on to me about having documented "proof", when I have the evidence of my own eyes and ears, and the experience of my own enforced repression and subjugation in their culture which, because I had NOT been indoctrinated since birth, was completely demeaning and shocking to me since I was not brought up to believe men are superior to women and that we should "serve" them.

If women do not comply with strict doctrine they are severely punished, so it is NOT a matter of their having a choice in the first place.

However, it is one thing to experience that way of life in those countries, and another to find it being practised in our so called equal and inclusive society -equal and inclusive no doubt so long as you're not a muslim woman.

[arista]

lol ITV, It doesn't change the facts that we haven't heard the opinions of the parents and such, instead we're lead to believe that they might be fine and dandy with it that just fuels the media made image that Islam is a slowly creeping monster seeking to take away our liberties.


Sure I am sure we will.


Yes I can understand you Dezzy
with the 'Monster.'

But 3 Muslims Schools with Ofsted Permission
are going back in time, the wrong way.

[Ayesha]

Furthermore, I spent several years living in the Middle East during which I worked and socialised with muslim women almost exclusively since, as a woman, I was forbidden from doing so with males unless my husband was present.

I learnt a hell of a lot from those women, and witnessed their way of life first hand..

I'm sorry but living in country like Saudi where the most anal government is in power, still does not make you an expert on the value of the Muslim woman in Islam. You are basing you're views on one country. And believe me, I have lived in more than one, they are ALL different!

I am a Muslim wife, mother and a teacher. And I'm telling you first hand that the female is not subservient to the any man (ask my poor hubby!!!), and I'll be damned if any muslim man has ever been able to tell me how to live my life, or worse how to practise my religion!

Islam was giving the woman land and inheritance in the late 600 AD!!! Well before the United Kingdom which indeed had to wait till 1960 onwards (and I'm being very generous with the year!!), to even consider giving women the same pay as men!!

Niqaab and the hijaab are NOT a way to oppress women! I have taken both in my time - so I know what Im talking about! The reasons are formed on the basis of modesty - much the same as Nuns cover up. And why the heck not? What with all the throwing of women as sexuality objects around - its high time that women empower themselves and WANT to be respected for themselves, their ideas, their opinions - not to be given a job because someones staring at their breasts!

Ladies on here who are declaring themselves as feminists, or womens lib, are not very focussed on what it really means.

If a school is choosing to implement something akin to the way school implement a school uniform, then thats the schools choice. The parents can choose to send their kids there or not.

By the way, Ofsted, are Standards for EDUCATION. Not for liberty of what the general misinformed public think are denial of rights.

[Ayesha]

The Daily Mail is hardly a source to take seriously, You'd get a more balanced view from a BNP newsletter. If it is true then I disagree vehemently but then again that article doesn't comment on the parent's reaction, as expected. Daily Mail can't allow muslims to be portrayed a truthful light since they're all bloodthirsty extremists after our civil liberties obviously. :joker:


Agreed. Good old Daily mail. A muslims best friend.

Chances a good percentage of the parents are as outraged at this is other people are. I expect the student Body to drop in number considerably. No one should be forced to wear the Burkha but 3 schools do not represent all muslims so it's unfair to judge them as so.


Well exactly, if parents dont like it, they can put great pressure on the schools to change (the advantage of fee paying parents..) - or send their kids elsewhere.

[letmein]

It's a private institution. They can do as they like. Don't like it, don't go. We should then ban all uniforms.

And The Daily Fail, is a racist, homophobic organization, that lies and distorts things to further their own agenda. The history speaks for itself. So, don't go giving us that "lefty" crap.

[Pyramid*]

I'm going to create a new religion where religious clothing includes a balaclava and a hoodie. Lets see if I'm allowed to wear that in public places

As much as this is funny...... it has it's very own truth to it. this country is now officially a joke.

[bananarama]

I just dont think it's my place to tell a Muslim woman that they are wrong for wearing a burqa if it's done out of her own free will.

This free will point of view frankly is a load of cobblers.........Children are brainwashed from birth to do what the parents want.......Brain washed individuals when adults DO NOT HAVE FREE WILL. They are damaged people....

The indoctrination of children with ANY religion should be a serious criminal offence.....Children are groomed by religious addicts........The grooming of children is a moral crime byond comprehension.....

[Beso]

Who's saying the 11 yr olds are being forced to wear the veils? At that age you do as you're told. Sunday school was something I hated, I still had to ****ing go and listen to some freak in a frock ramble on about jesus.

[WOMBAI]

This free will point of view frankly is a load of cobblers.........Children are brainwashed from birth to do what the parents want.......Brain washed individuals when adults DO NOT HAVE FREE WILL. They are damaged people....

The indoctrination of children with ANY religion should be a serious criminal offence.....Children are groomed by religious addicts........The grooming of children is a moral crime byond comprehension.....

Exactly - how on earth can an adult that has been brainwashed into an ideology and religious belief since birth - ever have free will! They have never been allowed to form their own opinions - they have been told how to think all their life - hardly surprising they end up believing it - but it is a false belief from years of brainwashing!

[Zippy]

If burqas and veils are not a religious requirement then I see no justification for them whatsoever. Theyre clearly all about desexualising females and making them invisible. I don't think that should be acceptable in any free civilised country.

The goverment should send out a strong message that hiding females away like this is just intolerable and actually dehumanises them.

[Livia]

I'm sorry but living in country like Saudi where the most anal government is in power, still does not make you an expert on the value of the Muslim woman in Islam. You are basing you're views on one country. And believe me, I have lived in more than one, they are ALL different! etc. etc. etc...


Hello Ayesha...

I do agree with you that many women in Islam are not oppressed. Indeed, I am informed by a Muslim friend that it says in the Koran that Mohammed treated his wife as an equal. However, having said that, and taking into account your comment about the property laws brought in so early by Islam, there are certain Islamic countries who are centuries behind the rest when it comes to women's rights.

I think it's time some forward-thinking Muslims like yourself stood up and said it is wrong to lash a women, or to hang her or stone her to death for a sexual "crime" where the man gets off free. It is wrong not to allow half the population access to medical advice or to education simply because they do not have a penis. You cannot deny that all these things happen in certain Islamic countries, and for educated, thinking Muslims to deny it puts your whole cause back centuries.

[BB_Eye]

Nobody is breaking the law by making Islamic school girls wear the hijab or even the veil. Religious institutions are given exemptions (some might say special treatment) from certain laws which bans discrimination towards women and other groups

Do I agree with it? Not necessarily, but I hope in the interests of consistency, the same people asking for a ban on mandatory veil-wearing for girls in schools are also prepared to deny the Catholic and Anglican church the right to discriminate against gays and lesbians which they do routinely and legally.

[Angus]

Nobody is breaking the law by making Islamic school girls wear the hijab or even the veil. Religious institutions are given exemptions (some might say special treatment) from certain laws which bans discrimination towards women and other groups

Do I agree with it? Not necessarily, but I hope in the interests of consistency, the same people asking for a ban on mandatory veil-wearing for girls in schools are also prepared to deny the Catholic and Anglican church the right to discriminate against gays and lesbians which they do routinely and legally.

You are aware, I take it, that under sharia law, homosexuality attracts the death penalty?

Furthermore, I don't recall that homosexuals are required to conceal their identity by wearing face enveloping burkhas:rolleyes: Religious freedoms should not be allowed to infringe the public's right to safety and security, which is somewhat hampered by the inability to identify a person.

[Shasown]

You are aware, I take it, that under sharia law, homosexuality attracts the death penalty?

Furthermore, I don't recall that homosexuals are required to conceal their identity by wearing face enveloping burkhas:rolleyes: Religious freedoms should not be allowed to infringe the public's right to safety and security, which is somewhat hampered by the inability to identify a person.

Once again you seek to muddy the waters by throwing some slightly factually based inflammatory garbage into the debate.

Sharia Law doesnt actually prescribe a punishment for homosexuality, some countries have used the fact Mohammad said it was immoral to practice sodomy to impose the death sentence for those caught practising, however more countries that have laws based on Sharia simply use imprisonment, there are even countries that dont punish.

[Beso]

You are aware, I take it, that under sharia law, homosexuality attracts the death penalty?

Furthermore, I don't recall that homosexuals are required to conceal their identity by wearing face enveloping burkhas:rolleyes: Religious freedoms should not be allowed to infringe the public's right to safety and security, which is somewhat hampered by the inability to identify a person.


Yet I'm sure you would have been the first one complaining about cctv cameras going up all over the place.

You come across as very intolerant to the muslim faith and religion angus, It's a shame because all your posts are well written. Garbage, but well written!

ps, don't reply because i'm beneath you in intellect.:nono:

[BB_Eye]

You are aware, I take it, that under sharia law, homosexuality attracts the death penalty?Where does Sharia law come into this? Anyhow Sharia law doesn't prescribe the death penalty for homosexuality, but I am aware homosexuality is considered one of the worst of sins in Islam.

I only mentioned Christians to illustrate a point. The Anglican and Catholic church have been the most vocal about their wishes to be exempt from Britain's laws on discrimination (for instance women and gays in the clergy, same-sex marriages, gay adoption etc). What I mean to say is there was never half the amount of fuss over the special considerations made for religious institutions across the board as there is on this single issue regarding Islam and the burkha. Why the sudden emergence of concerned citizens?

Furthermore, I don't recall that homosexuals are required to conceal their identity by wearing face enveloping burkhas:rolleyes:
If it were up to me, I would far rather be a woman wearing the veil than a homosexual living out a double life or a sham marriage. Both entail concealing oneself up to a point.

Religious freedoms should not be allowed to infringe the public's right to safety and security, which is somewhat hampered by the inability to identify a person.
But there are plenty of times where we would compromise our safety and security for our civil rights/liberties. For instance many agree excessive CCTV can amount to a violation of privacy and the idea of introducing ID cards greatly angered the GBP.

[letmein]

If burqas and veils are not a religious requirement then I see no justification for them whatsoever. Theyre clearly all about desexualising females and making them invisible. I don't think that should be acceptable in any free civilised country.

The goverment should send out a strong message that hiding females away like this is just intolerable and actually dehumanises them.
It would not be a free society then. The government has no business getting involved in these institutions. If you don't want to go to one, you're free to not go.

[Angus]

Yet I'm sure you would have been the first one complaining about cctv cameras going up all over the place.

You come across as very intolerant to the muslim faith and religion angus, It's a shame because all your posts are well written. Garbage, but well written!

ps, don't reply because i'm beneath you in intellect.:nono:

I have no problem with cctv cameras, they are an absolute necessity in city centres, airports etc. I am not intolerant to any religion, but I am extremely intolerant to a garment that conceals the FACE. It is not being tolerant, but stupid and naive, to find it acceptable for anyone to have the right to walk amongst us unidentifiable - I have still not read one good reason for this to be permitted - religious requirement or NOT.

I have also already explained at great length my objections, as a woman, to being confronted in our western culture with this very visual and obvious sign of the subjugation of women. Muslim women are brainwashed from birth to believe they are inferior to men, so their adult views are not too convincing to me.

Incidentally it is not my fault if you cannot follow an argument:pat:

[letmein]

I have no problem with cctv cameras, they are an absolute necessity in city centres, airports etc. I am not intolerant to any religion, but I am extremely intolerant to a garment that conceals the FACE. It is not being tolerant, but stupid and naive, to find it acceptable for anyone to have the right to walk amongst us unidentifiable - I have still not read one good reason for this to be permitted - religious requirement or NOT.

I have also already explained at great length my objections, as a woman, to being confronted in our western culture with this very visual and obvious sign of the subjugation of women. Muslim women are brainwashed from birth to believe they are inferior to men, so their adult views are not too convincing to me.

Incidentally it is not my fault if you cannot follow an argument:pat:

CCTV cameras are too 1984, and dangerous. A totally Fascist concept.

I agree with you about the face covering thing in public. People should be able to see your face in case you break the law. However, in a public institution, you should be able to wear what is required. Outside, that's a different story.

All religions brainwash youth. That's a fact.

[Beso]

I have no problem with cctv cameras, they are an absolute necessity in city centres, airports etc. I am not intolerant to any religion, but I am extremely intolerant to a garment that conceals the FACE. It is not being tolerant, but stupid and naive, to find it acceptable for anyone to have the right to walk amongst us unidentifiable - I have still not read one good reason for this to be permitted - religious requirement or NOT.

I have also already explained at great length my objections, as a woman, to being confronted in our western culture with this very visual and obvious sign of the subjugation of women. Muslim women are brainwashed from birth to believe they are inferior to men, so their adult views are not too convincing to me.

Incidentally it is not my fault if you cannot follow an argument:pat:



Oh I can follow an argument easily enough, I tend to just skip over racism though.So you can imagine I was only getting snippets of your ramblings.:sleep:

[WOMBAI]

Oh I can follow an argument easily enough, I tend to just skip over racism though.So you can imagine I was only getting snippets of your ramblings.:sleep:

It is pretty obvious you have no sensible argument to put forward - hence the usual, predictable racist accusations! Sigh!

Such a weak, pathetic and unsuccessful attempt at shutting down someone else's opinion! :rolleyes:

[Beso]

It is pretty obvious you have no sensible argument to put forward - hence the usual, predictable racist accusations! Sigh!

Such a weak, pathetic and unsuccessful attempt at shutting down someone else's opinion! :rolleyes:



Hey I say it how I see it alright! k!:nono:

[WOMBAI]

Hey I say it how I see it alright! k!:nono:

Yeah, yeah! SIGH!!!

[Angus]

It is pretty obvious you have no sensible argument to put forward - hence the usual, predictable racist accusations! Sigh!

Such a weak, pathetic and unsuccessful attempt at shutting down someone else's opinion! :rolleyes:

I couldn't even be arsed to respond to such a pathetic response. Or perhaps the poster is just a sexist misogynist? Who knows?:bored: It won't stop me from airing my views for which I, at least, can submit an argument. Playing the race card is the last gambit of someone on a losing argument, but fortunately these days people are no longer intimidated into backing away from serious issues such as this.

[Beso]

I couldn't even be arsed to respond to such a pathetic response. Or perhaps the poster is just a sexist misogynist? Who knows?:bored: It won't stop me from airing my views for which I, at least, can submit an argument. Playing the race card is the last gambit of someone on a losing argument, but fortunately these days people are no longer intimidated into backing away from serious issues such as this.



You're the only one arguing darling. You wouldn't give a dam if it were male 11 yr olds "forced" into wearing something you think they don't want to. You're nothing more than a hypocrite who selects anything from any topic to back up your standpoint on womens rights.

Who are you to say these children don't want to wear the burkha, you just use that sweeping statement to make your ridiculous claims stand up. :sleep: