Should we still be giving Financial Aid to India?

[Shasown]

Even though we ourselves are struggling to escape the recent economic crisis, the UK Government is still intent on sending £1bn in financial aid to India over the next four years.

Given India's economy is growing at a faster rate than ours, the Indian Government has announced its not bothered if it receives the money and also the fact they (The Indian Govt) currently send financial aid to African countries.

Should UK taxpayers money be used in this way?


Why are we giving £1bn aid to India? A nation with three times as many billionaires as we have (and its own space programme)


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1357056/Britains-1bn-aid-India-nation-3-times-billionaires-have.html#ixzz1EFrMcvnY




UK minister defends policy as aid to India comes under fire.

India has a fast-growing economy and a billion-dollar space programme, but it is still home to a third of the world's poor

http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2011/feb/16/uk-government-aid-india-strategy

[joeysteele]

Shasown,I have held the view we should give aid to other Countries and honour all existing pledges of aid. However this point is a good and strong one now because as you say we seem to be giving aid to economies that are doing better and in some cases much better than the UKs.

Also if, and I stress if, we really are in as bad a state as we are told we are as a Nation then I think its here that aid should stay.
So I have come around to the view now that if we are in as bad a state as is said then all aid programmes should be reviewed and cut or stopped altogether.
Since the aid given to other Nations is increasing rather than decreasing that leaves me suspicious that things are as bad as we are told they are in the UK .

[Chuck]

International Aid: taking money from poor people who live in rich countries and giving it to rich people who live in poor countries.

[arista]

No we should not

[Grimnir]

After the banks orchestrate this financial crisis, we should give international aid to no one at all. Spend it on UK citizens only

[Liberty4eva]

International Aid: taking money from poor people who live in rich countries and giving it to rich people who live in poor countries.

That sounds an awful lot like Ron Paul.

[GypsyGoth]

India has a lot of rich people, they should look after the poor people in their country. Sending them money is just stupid.

[Stephanie]

no, i don't think we should be giving money to any other country. we need it.

[jc7]

Why do we need to give our tax money to India?

The Indian Government have even said they're not bothered if they don't receive it so they can't really need it. Plus, they're sending financial aid to Africa, so I say our tax money doesn't get spent on this and instead it is used to help us out of the recession. Bolting up VAT percentage to then have our taxes spent on other countries. :bored:

We have poor people in our country too and it's not a surprise the way things are going.

Let India tax the rich badly over there to provide for the poor.

It probably won't be long before VAT goes up again in our country, and all the taxes us working have to pay so others who are unable to work/looking for work can get their benefits.

[Jordan.]

Wtf, no. :bored:

[Zippy]

depends what they do with it

India has huge poverty and horrendous conditions for children. If I thought the money was going to directly help them I would say definitely yes. However, its probably getting stolen by the greedy bastards in power and never filters down to the ones who desperately need it.

[Beastie]

India has a lot of rich people, they should look after the poor people in their country. Sending them money is just stupid.

This.

I think in this country and in India.. and in fact in any country.. the rich need to be taxed more and the poor need to be paid more. This is if the poor actually have a working class job. Such as sweeping and cleaning hours on end, these people need to be paid more.

[Beastie]

Why do we need to give our tax money to India?

The Indian Government have even said they're not bothered if they don't receive it so they can't really need it. Plus, they're sending financial aid to Africa, so I say our tax money doesn't get spent on this and instead it is used to help us out of the recession. Bolting up VAT percentage to then have our taxes spent on other countries. :bored:

We have poor people in our country too and it's not a surprise the way things are going.

Let India tax the rich badly over there to provide for the poor.

It probably won't be long before VAT goes up again in our country, and all the taxes us working have to pay so others who are unable to work/looking for work can get their benefits.

This.

[bananarama]

We are a country in debt........Where does the aid money come from that we give.........You guest it we borrow money which lands us the tax payer in further debt to give money to corrupt governments abroad........Bloody maddness......

[lostalex]

I think it's fair. It's reparations for all the damage you did to them. i think also the brits should be paying reparations to all former colonies. They should be giving aid also to the US, and Canada, and Australia for all the damage they did to the natives and for creating the slave trade.

[Angus]

I think it's fair. It's reparations for all the damage you did to them. i think also the brits should be paying reparations to all former colonies. They should be giving aid also to the US, and Canada, and Australia for all the damage they did to the natives and for creating the slave trade.

:laugh3::laugh3: The sheer hypocrisy is staggering from an American whose forebears decimated and brutalised the entire NATIVE Indian population, committed untold atrocities in Vietnam, dropped the atom bomb on Hiroshima, and is responsible for so much bloodshed and conflict throughout the world due to their arrogant, often unsolicited, interference in other nations' affairs.:xyxwave:

Oh, as regards the slave trade, your grasp of European history is pretty weak - it was actually the Portugese who started the slave trade in the mid 15th century, my dear, not the English, and in fact the whole of Europe quickly followed, as did the Americans since they are not native to the Americas, but originated from EUROPE. Britain abolished slavery in 1833, whereas America didn't follow suit until 1865.

[Beastie]

:laugh3::laugh3: The sheer hypocrisy is staggering from an American whose forebears decimated and brutalised the entire NATIVE Indian population, committed untold atrocities in Vietnam, dropped the atom bomb on Hiroshima, and is responsible for so much bloodshed and conflict throughout the world due to their arrogant, often unsolicited, interference in other nations' affairs.:xyxwave:

Oh, as regards the slave trade, your grasp of European history is pretty weak - it was actually the Portugese who started the slave trade in the mid 15th century, my dear, not the English, and in fact the whole of Europe quickly followed, as did the Americans since they are not native to the Americas, but originated from EUROPE. Britain abolished slavery in 1833, whereas America didn't follow suit until 1865.

Looks like lostalex has been owned here.

Hypocrites people are. Slag off England for what happened in the past.. yet plenty of foreigners live here.

2 rights don't make a wrong. People need to get over with the past.

Excuse me lostalex.. we should give money to Canada and the USA? Err no. USA is a richer country than the UK. The UK is more generous than the USA and lets any old immigrant in!

Anyway... the Indian PM has even said they don't need financial aid anymore from the UK! So David Cameron needs to make the decision to stop giving it to them!! People bringing up the past is only going to make things worse. Didn't people from India steal the crown jewels or something from our English Queen? Anyway everyone needs to make a clean slate.

[Beastie]

I think it's fair. It's reparations for all the damage you did to them. i think also the brits should be paying reparations to all former colonies. They should be giving aid also to the US, and Canada, and Australia for all the damage they did to the natives and for creating the slave trade.

Who is "they"? People who died many many years ago who was part of the British Empire or whatever? That is not mine, Angus's or anyone who is still currently living fault!!

[lostalex]

Sorry but you are wrong. The english, while banning slavery in their own land, did nothing to prevent their citizens from profiting from and running businesses profiting from the slave trade. The UK has billions of dollars within it's economy made from the slave trade.

America didn't have ships. America was not kidnapping people from africa. That was Europe (including the UK).

Just because you didn't have slaves during that time (although you have plenty of slavery in your own history) does not absolve you from the responsibility of creating the system which enabled slavery in North and South America.

Get it right.

[Angus]

Sorry but you are wrong. The english, while banning slavery in their own land, did nothing to prevent their citizens from profiting from and running businesses profiting from the slave trade. The UK has billions of dollars within it's economy made from the slave trade.

America didn't have ships. America was not kidnapping people from africa. That was Europe (including the UK).

Just because you didn't have slaves during that time (although you have plenty of slavery in your own history) does not absolve you from the responsibility of creating the system which enabled slavery in North and South America.

Get it right.

No, YOU need to get it right -go back and read what you posted FGS. You quite clearly stated that Britain CREATED the slave trade, when this was patently untrue. You also appear to be suggesting that America is totally innocent of any slave trafficking because it "didn't have ships":laugh3: Oh my lawd you're a hoot. I would also remind you that there was really no such thing as an "American" 250 years ago - you were all just a collection of immigrants from many countries, mostly from EUROPE, and certainly not exclusively from England! I also believe that they arrived on the shores of America by SHIP, unless you're suggesting there was another mode of transport in existence at that time of which I am not aware:laugh:

I also note your absence of any denials about my assertions of the considerable damage America has caused, not only by the genocide of the original native population of the lands it STOLE , but also to the rest of the world - I gave you some examples and I await your comments with interest.:xyxwave: If you're going to fling such accusations out about other countries, you should do it with "manos limpias", otherwise don't expect to be taken seriously or shown any respect.

America would be bankrupt if they ever had to pay out compensation for the havoc and damage they have caused to so many countries and peoples.

[lostalex]

i did not say that britain alone CREATED the slave trade. I mean Europe as a continent, Colonialism. I know you brits like to separate yourselves from the European continent, but at the time, you were all scrambling to conquer as many lands as possible, and slavery was part of that strategy.

For Europe to deny it's responsibilities is outrageous. The vast majority of Natives killed in the Americas (north and south) and all other colonies were killed by diseases, not by war.

All Slavery in the Americas (north and south) was implemented by European colonialism. You made it, it's your design, and the consequences fall on your shoulders.

To deny it, is simply ignorant.

[Crimson Dynamo]

no

let other countries fix themselves

[Shasown]

i did not say that britain alone CREATED the slave trade. I mean Europe as a continent, Colonialism. I know you brits like to separate yourselves from the European continent, but at the time, you were all scrambling to conquer as many lands as possible, and slavery was part of that strategy.

For Europe to deny it's responsibilities is outrageous. The vast majority of Natives killed in the Americas (north and south) and all other colonies were killed by diseases, not by war.

All Slavery in the Americas (north and south) was implemented by European colonialism. You made it, it's your design, and the consequences fall on your shoulders.

To deny it, is simply ignorant.

Right so the fact we had abolished slavery in the UK and the British Empire, made it illegal to profit from slavery anywhere within the British Empire, means its our fault that the US still had legalised slavery for nearly fourty years after us.

Isnt that a bit like heaping all the blame for that debacle in Indo-China on the French?

Incidentally blaming all slavery in the americas on the Europeans is simply ignoring the facts, go look at Native American and Meso-American cultures, I think you will find slavery existed in both prior to the arrival of the Europeans.

[lostalex]

Right so the fact we had abolished slavery in the UK and the British Empire, made it illegal to profit from slavery anywhere within the British Empire, means its our fault that the US still had legalised slavery for nearly fourty years after us.

Isnt that a bit like heaping all the blame for that debacle in Indo-China on the French?

Saying that Europe isn't responsible for slavery because you made it illegal, is like saying America isn't responsible for Hiroshima after we dropped the bomb.

"Well we just dropped the bomb, what happened when it hit the ground isn't our fault, we had no control of it after we dropped it!"

Sorry, that argument doesn't fly.

America took responsibility after it dropped the bomb on Hiroshima, and stuck around to build Japan up to the great country it is today, we didn't skirt our responsibilities.

[Shasown]

Saying that Europe isn't responsible for slavery because you made it illegal, is like saying America isn't responsible for Hiroshima after we dropped the bomb.

"Well we just dropped the bomb, what happened when it hit the ground isn't our fault, we had no control of it after we dropped it!"

Sorry, that argument doesn't fly.

America took responsibility after it dropped the bomb on Hiroshima, and stuck around to build Japan up to the great country it is today, we didn't skirt our responsibilities.

I didnt say we werent responsible, so please read what I wrote, think about it, inwardly digest it and try to understand it if possible before you reply. I wrote that the British empire abolished slavery a long time before the US did.

I also wrote that slavery existed in N and S America before the arrival of the Europeans, in contrast to your statement that:

"All Slavery in the Americas (north and south) was implemented by European colonialism."

That statement is simply untrue, if you research it you will find the Aztec and other Meso American cultures used slavery in a variety of forms. Native American tribe also practiced it in various forms.

Is that too difficult for you to understand?

[lostalex]

OMG, are you honestly comparing "slavery" in the native tribes, to Institutional slavery, and the Slave TRADE, the HUGE INDUSTRY that was colonial slavery.

I'm sorry, but i feel you are being disingenuous. There is no comparison. You are distracting from the issue you know that i am talking about. I am talking about the SLAVE TRADE.

To compare the slavery that was an integral part of European colonialism and was a BILLION DOLLAr INDUSTRY to the slavery that may or may not have existed in tribal native american culture is ridiculous and disingenuous. IMHO.

[Angus]

i did not say that britain alone CREATED the slave trade. I mean Europe as a continent, Colonialism. I know you brits like to separate yourselves from the European continent, but at the time, you were all scrambling to conquer as many lands as possible, and slavery was part of that strategy.

For Europe to deny it's responsibilities is outrageous. The vast majority of Natives killed in the Americas (north and south) and all other colonies were killed by diseases, not by war.

All Slavery in the Americas (north and south) was implemented by European colonialism. You made it, it's your design, and the consequences fall on your shoulders.

To deny it, is simply ignorant.

I feel truly sorry for you since you are clearly a victim of your insular and globally ignorant education system,and are therefore not really responsible for the utter drivel that you spout on this forum. Good God, now you're trying to say that the vast majority of Natives killed in the Americas died from diseases, without mentioning that the reason for that was the fact that they were robbed of their land and their livelihood, and starved and exposed to the plethora of diseases like syphilis brought in by immigrants. If that ain't your fault, who's is it?

No matter how much you Americans bluster and justify, the genocide of the Native Indians is at least on par with Hitler's extermination of the Jews. Hitler is reputed to have been inspired by the genocide of the Indians to formulate his own extermination policy of the Jews, and the concentration camps were inspired by the reservations onto which the Indians were herded. Percentage-wise the genocide of the American Indians exceeds the horror of the German atrocities perpetrated in the death camps against Jews, Gypsies, Poles, Russians, communists, etc. combined. Now ain't that something?

The US has now embarked on a neverending war against terrorism, which justifies its' military presence all over the globe, under the guise of "protection". The list of countries predicted as future recipients of American devastation and occupation are Somalia, Iraq, The Philippines, Iran, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Cuba etc etc. Like the Nazis, they invade where they are not wanted. The bombings in Afghanistan have resulted in an innocent civilian death toll far in excess of the 9/11 toll, or even the Nazi bombings of innocent civilians. Were you aware of that?

As I have said before, before you start slinging accusations around, take a look in your own backyard - America is in no position to set itself up as the moral guardian of the world, when it is itself steeped in the innocent blood of millions.

[Shasown]

OMG, are you honestly comparing "slavery" in the native tribes, to Institutional slavery, and the Slave TRADE, the HUGE INDUSTRY that was colonial slavery.

I'm sorry, but i feel you are being disingenuous. There is no comparison. You are distracting from the issue you know that i am talking about. I am talking about the SLAVE TRADE.

To compare the slavery that was an integral part of European colonialism and was a BILLION DOLLAr INDUSTRY to the slavery that may or may not have existed in tribal native american culture is ridiculous and disingenuous. IMHO.

No thats not what i am doing at all.

Merely correcting you on your inaccuracies.

Its not a question of it may or may not having existed in native american cultures. it did exist FACT.

You led the thread astray with the assertion that financial aid to India etc was fair and due recompense for the slave trade, stating that ALL slavery in the Americas was down to the Europeans. That is factually incorrect. I corrected you.

I note with great amusement you didnt include slavery in Meso American cultures in your last post. Or that slavery also existed in the cultures of Africa itself before the European involvement.

Yes Europeans colonists did use slavery, in a big way. Where did we learn it? Slavery was used all through history, going all the way back to Mesopotamian and probably earlier cultures. Its a human thing not a European thing.

So climb down off your soap box, calm down and keep taking the tablets.

I know you like trying to browbeat the Europeans and the British in particular but you really do need to sit down with a therapist and work out this inferiority complex you have and hopefully deal with your insecurities.

Now can this thread return to topic?

[lostalex]

I'm not on a soap box. I'm just saying that paying reparations IS appropriate. Even if you chose to call it "aid".

[Shasown]

I'm not on a soap box. I'm just saying that paying reparations IS appropriate. Even if you chose to call it "aid".

Thats one way to look at it in a very immature naive way, who am i to burst your bubble.(Bhopal)

I would say its more a way of ensuring future goodwill and co-operation, which no doubt your state department will once again in the future come a begging us to use for their benefit.

[lostalex]

Thats one way to look at it in a very immature naive way, who am i to burst your bubble.(Bhopal)

I would say its more a way of ensuring future goodwill and co-operation, which no doubt your state department will once again in the future come a begging us to use for their benefit.


Oh yes, It's MY country that is dependent on YOUR country....

...you were saying something about being naive?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Oh yes, It's MY country that is dependent on YOUR country....

...you were saying something about being naive?

give up

you have been schooled

:dance:

[Shasown]

Oh yes, It's MY country that is dependent on YOUR country....

...you were saying something about being naive?

There you go again changing real documented facts into something else.

I didnt say the US were dependent on the UK. I said the US State Department will come asking us to intervene on their behalf with some other country we have better relations with. (Thats just about every other country really).

[lostalex]

There you go again changing real documented facts into something else.

I didnt say the US were dependent on the UK. I said the US State Department will come asking us to intervene on their behalf with some other country we have better relations with. (Thats just about every other country really).

riiiight, cause the UK is sooo loved around the world... lol

again.... you mentioned being naive??

[lostalex]

give up

you have been schooled

:dance: you're cute. *pats LT on the head*

[Shasown]

riiiight, cause the UK is sooo loved around the world... lol

again.... you mentioned being naive??

No maybe we arent loved around the world, but we arent quite as hated as the Great Satan the US,

[Crimson Dynamo]

No maybe we arent loved around the world, but we arent quite as hated as the Great Satan the US,

and we are not as thick as they are

your witness m'lud

[lostalex]

No maybe we arent loved around the world, but we arent quite as hated as the Great Satan the US,

Is that the Canada defense? Canadians love to say they arn't hated. Well, that's true, but it's also true, no one thinks about Canada or knows anything about Canada.

Obviously the less important you are, the less hated you are.
It's hard to hate someone you don't even notice.

And the reverse is also true, the more important you are, the more people focus on you, the more criticism you'll receive.

Are there worse singers than cheryl cole? of course there are. Do they receive as much hate and criticism as Cheryl Cole? No. Why? Because no one cares about them.

[Shasown]

Is that the Canada defense? Canadians love to say they arn't hated. Well, that's true, but it's also true, no one thinks about Canada or knows anything about Canada.

Obviously the less important you are, the less hated you are.
It's hard to hate someone you don't even notice.

And the reverse is also true, the more important you are, the more people focus on you, the more criticism you'll receive.

Are there worse singers than cheryl cole? of course there are. Do they receive as much hate and criticism as Cheryl Cole? No. Why? Because no one cares about them.

I take it you will be majoring in convoluted thinking and naive reasoning, or will it be "History and how America ended the Dark Ages and heralded in the Rennaissance" when or should I say if you ever get to college.

Dont sweat it you will breeze either of those.

[lostalex]

Have i said 1 single positive thing about America?

What are you talking about? You are trying to frame this as if i'm praising the USA. Please quote one thing i've said in this thread that has praised the USA.

You can't.

[Shasown]

Have i said 1 single positive thing about America?

What are you talking about? You are trying to frame this as if i'm praising the USA. Please quote one thing i've said in this thread that has praised the USA.

You can't.

Only in your mind.

I never said you had said anything in praise of the US or anyone else for that matter. Nor did I imply it.

I merely asked a question about if you go to college.

[lostalex]

You are being disingenuous again. You keep trying to frame me as some kind of crazed right wing nationalist for the USA. You have assumed that my criticism of the Uk and Europe equates to USA nationalism.

You are backtracking now.

I hesitate to call you a liar.

[Zippy]

http://argville.com/images/funny-pictures/europe-vs-usa.jpg

[lostalex]

http://argville.com/images/funny-pictures/europe-vs-usa.jpg

http://www.instantmash.com/images/celebs/sc3/137159/large_bnp-PA_141028s.jpg

http://www.city-analysis.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/edl_supporters.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_zENuDflPejY/TFWQkeicPKI/AAAAAAAAEsE/AHAbQkAEmJw/s1600/EDL_3.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_kjBtVFiZI2o/TMgypfFtIeI/AAAAAAAAA9I/3DaHarK4-yk/s640/EDL.jpg

http://image.spreadshirt.com/image-server/image/composition/4237148/view/1/producttypecolor/1/type/png/width/378/height/378/usa-peace-sign_design.png

[BB_Eye]

http://www.instantmash.com/images/celebs/sc3/137159/large_bnp-PA_141028s.jpg
etc, etc.
http://www.treehugger.com/rush-limbaugh-earth-day.jpg
http://rlv.zcache.com/southern_asatru_t_shirt-p23577852918094463233av_400.jpg
http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/usa/images-5/kkk-child.jpg
http://www.gothamist.com/attachments/jen/2007_02_stromsharpton.jpg
http://brawlmusic.com/files/2010/06/rodney-king.jpg
0qINiw6ub5U

[Shasown]

You are being disingenuous again. You keep trying to frame me as some kind of crazed right wing nationalist for the USA. You have assumed that my criticism of the Uk and Europe equates to USA nationalism.

You are backtracking now.

I hesitate to call you a liar.

Pot Kettle grimey ass, springs to mind.

I dont hesitate though. Having seen some of your comments on this thread:
http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4123781&posted=1#post4123781

All the gear but no idea.

[lostalex]

Pot Kettle grimey ass, springs to mind.

I dont hesitate though. Having seen some of your comments on this thread:
http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4123781&posted=1#post4123781

All the gear but no idea.

You think there's something wrong with defending your own country? Then remind me again why yu were in both iraq and afghanistan?

[lostalex]

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/thumb/0/0a/English_nazis2.png/180px-English_nazis2.png

[IMGhttp://rlv.zcache.com/southern_asatru_t_shirt-p23577852918094463233av_400.jpg

[IMGhttp://www.gothamist.com/attachments/jen/2007_02_stromsharpton.jpg
[IMGhttp://brawlmusic.com/files/2010/06/rodney-king.jpg[/IMG]
[YT0qINiw6ub5U[/YT]


LMAO. seriously? ROsie O'DOnnell Also believes in the 9/11 conspiracies, she's a nutter. lol You;ve got plenty of conspiracy nuts in yur country aswell.. Gary Mckinnon ring a bell???

Are any of those stories less than 10 years old? That's the best you can do... AL SHARPTON, SERIOUSLY???

ROTFLMAO

[Shasown]

You think there's something wrong with defending your own country? Then remind me again why yu were in both iraq and afghanistan?

Because I signed a contract that said I had to follow orders and apart from anything else at times it was great fun.

LMAO. seriously? ROsie O'DOnnell Also believes in the 9/11 conspiracies, she's a nutter. lol You;ve got plenty of conspiracy nuts in yur country aswell.. Gary Mckinnon ring a bell???

Are any of those stories less than 10 years old? That's the best you can do... AL SHARPTON, SERIOUSLY???

ROTFLMAO

Yeah isnt he the man the Americans want extradited to face criminal charges for hacking into NASA etc?

Funny how the evidence the US State Department produced for extradition was deemed to be little more than hearsay. Incidentally why does your government want to prosecute as you put it "a nutter"? Or should that be persecute?

[lostalex]

Funny how the evidence the US State Department produced for extradition was deemed to be little more than hearsay. Incidentally why does your government want to prosecute as you put it "a nutter"? Or should that be persecute?

ummm, he's admitted to hacking into NASA and the Pentagon. You don't need hearsay when the guy has ADMITTED his crime. He's claiming to be mentally retarded now though. *rolls eyes*

[Shasown]

ummm, he's admitted to hacking into the Pentagon. You don't need hearsay when the guy has ADMITTED his crime. He's claiming to be mentally retarded now though. *rolls eyes*

He also has a history of mental illness. He, his family and several renowned experts in the field also say he suffers from Aspergers. Incidentally thats only described by know nothings as being mentally retarded.

Go find what Joseph Richard Gutheinz, says about his case.

[lostalex]

He also has a history of mental illness. He, his family and several renowned experts in the field also say he suffers from Aspergers.

Go find what Joseph Richard Gutheinz, says about his case.

How convenient. Then why was he given access to the internet to begin with? So are you saying his parents should be punished instead of him? SOmeone must be responsible for this crime. So who is it.

Arn't all criminals mentally ill? Any murder must certainly be mentally ill by definition. Cause killing someone is crazy.

Mental illness does not justify crime.

If he cannot control himself, then that's MORE reason to put him behind bars!

[Shasown]

How convenient. Then why was he given access to the internet to begin with? So are you saying his parents should be punished instead of him? SOmeone must be responsible for this crime. So who is it.!

I could ask why your parents let you have access to the net.

Maybe the tards in charge of electronic security of the various sites he hacked. Yeah his parents should bear some responsibility and they do.


Arn't all criminals mentally ill? Any murder must certainly be mentally ill by definition. Cause killing someone is crazy.

Mental illness does not justify crime.

If he cannot control himself, then that's MORE reason to put him behind bars!

No, while it may be true that some criminals are mentally ill, thats not all criminals.

Some murderers are mentally ill a lot are not.

Some people havent been taught the difference between right and wrong, some dont value another persons life.

[MTVN]

How convenient. Then why was he given access to the internet to begin with? So are you saying his parents should be punished instead of him? SOmeone must be responsible for this crime. So who is it.

Arn't all criminals mentally ill? Any murder must certainly be mentally ill by definition. Cause killing someone is crazy.

Mental illness does not justify crime.

If he cannot control himself, then that's MORE reason to put him behind bars!

That's one of the stupidest things I've ever read

[lostalex]

That's one of the stupidest things I've ever read

orly? well please explain to me how killing someone is sane in any way.

Enlighten me. plz.

[Shasown]

orly? well please explain to me how killing someone is sane in any way.

Enlighten me. plz.

Speaking about enlightenment, what crime did McKinnon commit?

It has even been admitted by US officials that he accessed the various sites through open access, not through backdoors etc. He followed links and managed to find ways into restricted access areas. He did not force or hack passwords etc.

Oh and he left silly and anti american messages.

Apparently he caused "great" damage, which US authorities are unable or unwilling to define.

What did he actually do. Upset someone? Damaged someones national pride? Is that really a crime?

As for killing being sane, to someone with no respect for life, killing could be an easy option to a problem, it doesnt mean the person is mentally ill.

[lostalex]

Speaking about enlightenment, what crime did McKinnon commit?

It has even been admitted by US officials that he accessed the various sites through open access, not through backdoors etc. He followed links and managed to find ways into restricted access areas. He did not force or hack passwords etc.

Oh and he left silly and anti american messages.

Apparently he caused "great" damage, which US authorities are unable or unwilling to define.

What did he actually do. Upset someone? Damaged someones national pride? Is that really a crime?

As for killing being sane, to someone with no respect for life, killing could be an easy option to a problem, it doesnt mean the person is mentally ill.


So i guess you'd have no problem with me poking around yur computer, leaving "silly anti-shasown messeges" on yur computer. you'd be completely fine with that would you?

I'm sure you wouldn't feel violated in any way.

Well if that's how you fell, i can only say, you and i are very different, cause i'd be incredibly upset and disturbed if someone did that to my computer.

[Shasown]

So i guess you'd have no problem with me poking around yur computer, leaving "silly anti-shasown messeges" on yur computer. you'd be completely fine with that would you?

I'm sure you wouldn't feel violated in any way.

Difference is I have firewalls and passwords and make full use of them. Your lot didnt.

If you could get in and leave any sort of message I would applaud you. Then look for a better security system.

[MTVN]

orly? well please explain to me how killing someone is sane in any way.

Enlighten me. plz.

So all soldiers who have killed are mentally ill?

The act of killing is not "insane" and does not automatically make the perpretrator mentally ill in any kind of way

[lostalex]

Difference is I have firewalls and passwords and make full use of them.

If you could get in and leave any sort of message I would applaud you.

i wouldn't want to, because i think it would be a violation.

[lostalex]

So all soldiers who have killed are mentally ill?

The act of killing is not "insane" and does not automatically make the perpretrator mentally ill in any kind of way
we are talking about crime, not war. There is a big difference.

[Shasown]

i wouldn't want to, because i think it would be a violation.

You still dont get it do you?

He accessed open access sites and then followed various links to areas that should have been password and firewall protected. They werent.


Its a bit like someone going into a museum and wandering round. then finding themselves in the storage area out the back because there wasnt signs or barriers to stop them walking the way they did.

[MTVN]

we are talking about crime, not war. There is a big difference.

Well you said "killing someone is crazy". Whether or not a killing is officially considered legal by the government that doesnt change the fact it's a killing. So now it is only those who's killing is illegal that must be mentally ill?

[Shasown]

we are talking about crime, not war. There is a big difference.

I think if you dig into that one a little bit you will find a lot of killings by members of armed forces from one country or another have been committed before a declaration of war or after a cessation of hostilities and in a lot of recent conflicts without a declaration of war at all.

[lostalex]

You still dont get it do you?

He accessed open access sites and then followed various links to areas that should have been password and firewall protected. They werent.


Its a bit like someone going into a museum and wandering round. then finding themselves in the storage area out the back because there wasnt signs or barriers to stop them walking the way they did.

again, yu mentioned being naive?? are you honestly telling me that he didn't know he was entering systems that he didn't belong in?? Yur telling me that it never crossed his mind that entering NASA or the Pentagon was illegal?

Gimme a break.

[lostalex]

Well you said "killing someone is crazy". Whether or not a killing is officially considered legal by the government that doesnt change the fact it's a killing. So now it is only those who's killing is illegal that must be mentally ill?

sorry, let me clarify. MURDER. is what i meant, obviously.

[Shasown]

again, yu mentioned being naive?? are you honestly telling me that he didn't know he was entering systems that he didn't belong in?? Yur telling me that it never crossed his mind that entering NASA or the Pentagon was illegal?

Gimme a break.

Its not illegal to access the US Department of Defense Website, nor is it illegal to access the NASA, in fact its encouraged.

http://www.defense.gov/
http://www.nasa.gov/

Its the areas he ended up in, they didnt like, then again if they didnt want people in there, they should have had it firewalled, password protected etc.

They have now so maybe they should in fact be thanking him, after all he did leave messages saying the security was pants. He even explained how he got where he did so as to help them secure the information he could have accessed.

[Zippy]

Lol. what's this topic about again?

[Shasown]

Lol. what's this topic about again?

Ummm cant remember now.

[Angus]

You think there's something wrong with defending your own country? Then remind me again why yu were in both iraq and afghanistan?

Because the corrupt, immoral, evil warmonger Tony Blair lied to the government, lied to the public and ultimately lied to himself in his pursuit of his journey up Bush's arse. He has yet to be brought to justice for his war crimes and meanwhile the British people have shot up the terrorist hit list to No. 2 behind the Americans.

The majority of British people do NOT support UK presence in Iraq or Afghanistan and never will; we have no wish to be America's lapdog, so don't judge us all by the actions of a maverick like Blair who had no business sending our young men to lose their lives in a fight that America picked.

We have no "special relationship" with America and never have had, so let's drop that pretence once and for all. The role of Bully's Sidekick is not what the majority of British people want, believe me. America is big enough and ugly enough to fight its own battles without our help.

[Grimnir]

Bush and Blair did not decide to go to war. They are just puppets and they were chosen because it is easy to pull their strings.

[Angus]

Bush and Blair did not decide to go to war. They are just puppets and they were chosen because it is easy to pull their strings.

That's just semantics - no individual has the power to decide to go to war. Bush was an ill-educated figurehead, elected to power, as most American presidents seem to be, by virtue of how much money, power and influence they have behind them. America, as a nation, declared war.

Blair, on the other, hand - as an individual - took it upon himself to decide the fate of our nation by pledging Britain's support of America, based on his dissemination of deliberate and pernicious deceptions and lies. He is therefore a war criminal and should face the full penalty of our Law which, at the very least, should consist of a lengthy term in prison.