John Galliano to stand trial for antisemitic rant

[letmein]

This is different than the other Galliano topic we have. Do you think people should be prosecuted for racial or bigoted speech?

I'm for free speech completely. Charges like this are what's killing Europe, IMHO. People should be able to say what they want.

...

Disgraced fashion designer John Galliano, will face trial over an incident at a Paris caf during which he allegedly hurled anti-Semitic and racist abuse at Graldine Bloch, 35, and her companion Philippe Virgiti, 41.

The Paris Prosecutors Office has issued a statement saying it has decided to put John Galliano on trial following a police investigation. The proceedings could take place in the second quarter of this year, and Galliano could face up to six months in prison, and up to 22,500 in fines, if convicted.

Earlier today, Galliano, who was fired from his role as creative director of Christian Dior over the allegations, issued a personal statement completely denying the claims made against him, renouncing anti-Semitism and racism, and apologising unreservedly for any offence his behaviour has caused.

It is believed Galliano has now left France and he is reported to be attending a rehabilitation facility, most likely The Meadows in Arizona.

Christian Dior intend to go ahead with their autumn/winter 2011 show this Friday at Paris Fashion Week, but whether Galliano will show his eponymous line on Sunday is unconfirmed.

http://fashion.telegraph.co.uk/columns/belinda-white/TMG8357757/John-Galliano-to-stand-trial.html

[GypsyGoth]

I'm not sure. I think education is the way to defeat racism and bigotry.

Jailing people for their words and thoughts might not change anything.

[Zippy]

I think the whole point of insulting somebody is to say something that hurts them. Sometimes you don't even have to mean it.

But all this PC crap is ridiculous. Countries like France get them selves in a muddle with it because they tread all over the right to free speech in the process.

[Ramsay]

uber poop

[Angus]

If anyone still believes in free speech in this country they are seriously deluded. Our thoughts, words and opinions have been monitored for the past decade by the PC brigade, especially on television, radio and the printed media, and anyone who has not noticed must be living in cloud cuckoo land. However, there is a difference between "expressing an opinion" and downright gratuitous confrontational, vile, nasty, racist anti-semetic, abuse directed at a Jewish person with the intention of deeply offending, upsetting and insulting that person.

Galliano is gay - how would he like it if someone had confronted him with a vile, homophobic rant -I bet he'd be the first one to make an official complaint.

Lucky for him he wasn't around in his beloved Hitler's era - he would have been banged up in the concentration camps with the Jews, Gypsies, Disabled and all the other folk that Hitler deemed unfit to live.

[MTVN]

He shouldnt be prosecuted for it no, although I think it's understandable that he was sacked

[Niamh.]

I think it should be case by case really. I mean his right to free speech is one thing but what about those womens right to not be abused?

[Lee.]

Freedom of speech? Bollocks!

OP do you really think it's acceptable for every one of us to go around telling people what we think of them, and in doing so insulting and hurting them?

We may have a right to freedom of speech, but that does not automatically give anybody the right to abuse people.

Galliano, in my opinion has absolutely NO right whatsoever to voice his feelings towards Jews and/or Hitler!

I am in fact astounded that there are people here who are trying to justify what he said!

And yes I do think he should be prosecuted.. inciting hate is a crime.

[Shasown]

Of course he should be prosecuted. It has been alleged that he broke the law, the only way he can clear his name if he is indeed innocent is by a prosecution.

Prosecution does not automatically equal punishment, it means investigation and determination of guilt or innocence. I wish people would understand that simple fact.

If he did commit the offences he has been accused of then he may have extenuating circumstances which may mitigate his level of guilt. It also allows the law to decide a suitable way to deal with the offender, punishment rehabilitation or warning.

If he didnt commit the offences as alleged it allows him a public platform on which to clear his name.

I think at the moment he has been treated slightly unfairly in that Dior sacked him, when he hasnt been found guilty of anything, they could have just suspended him without pay (he also has his own company so wont be short of a few bob coming in) till the outcome of the court case. Obviously though they have their own interests to protect. If he is cleared of the charges no doubt they will kiss and make up.

Incidentally to those that think these laws are petty and simply Europe interfering in our lives, think why they are there.

To prevent not only incidents of this type but also ideally to prevent some stirrers inciting a mob to go out and burn the houses of immigrants and asylum seekers down around their ears. The French laws were brought in after some disgusting racial incidents.

Even if he hadnt been charged with an offence against racial hatred laws, he would probably have still have charged with a public order offence.

If he had simply have been let off after a chat with the gendarme wouldnt the cry have been "one law for the rich......"?

[letmein]

It's amazing how Europe simply does not get this Freedom of Speech thing. Quite scary. No wonder why so many atrocities were able to occur. Government has no business dictating what people can think, say, or feel. He has every right to say that he loves Hitler. People in Europe are a bunch of whiny babies, who need Nanny to step in and protect them. You got your feelings hurt? So what? Suck it up! Not everyone is going to like you, or agree with you. America truly is the only one who have gotten this right, even with its long list of faults. Too many people are OK with the government infiltrating every aspect of their lives. No wonder the place is crawling with religious fanatics, who can get away with whatever they want, due to the fact that no one can say anything against them for fear of insulting, or being cited with hate speech. Give me a break. A person should be able to have whatever opinion they want, and let it be known. No one had a gun pointed to these people's heads, making them have to sit there and talk to him. And BTW, they weren't even Jewish. Europe needs a crash course in reality.

[letmein]

Freedom of speech? Bollocks!

OP do you really think it's acceptable for every one of us to go around telling people what we think of them, and in doing so insulting and hurting them?

Morally acceptable? No. Legally acceptable? Yes.

We may have a right to freedom of speech, but that does not automatically give anybody the right to abuse people.

Abuse? Please. Get some balls.

Galliano, in my opinion has absolutely NO right whatsoever to voice his feelings towards Jews and/or Hitler!

He has every right to, just as you have the right to call him a knob head!

I am in fact astounded that there are people here who are trying to justify what he said!

We're not justifying what he said. We're defending his right to say it, and stopping the allowance of the government to control us. I'm not interested in living under a Communist regime.

[Lee.]

Letmein, you can harp on about freedom of speech as much as you want, I'm afraid I'm not buying it in this case.

There is a big difference between having the right to say what you want and having the right to incite hatred of any sort!

You said I have a right to call Galliano a knobhead? Yes I do, but if I called him a dirty ****** spic knobhead, then in my opinion, I would have crossed the line into what I regard as unnaceptable!

Edit.. the blanked out word is the offensive term beginning with F that means gay

[Niamh.]

Letmein, you can harp on about freedom of speech as much as you want, I'm afraid I'm not buying it in this case.

There is a big difference between having the right to say what you want and having the right to incite hatred of any sort!

You said I have a right to call Galliano a knobhead? Yes I do, but if I called him a dirty ****** spic knobhead, then in my opinion, I would have crossed the line into what I regard as unnaceptable!

absolutely agree.

[Zippy]

There is a big difference between having the right to say what you want and having the right to incite hatred of any sort!



he was in a private "conversation"(drunken ramble) with a couple of people. How exactly was he inciting anything?

If it hadnt been filmed it would be a non incident only known about by a few people.

are we not allowed to say whatever we like in private conversations? What about internet message boards? because Im damn sure Ive seen all kinds of extreme views and sick opinions expressed on forums. yes, even on TiBB.

[Lee.]

he was in a private "conversation"(drunken ramble) with a couple of people. How exactly was he inciting anything?

If it hadnt been filmed it would be a non incident only known about by a few people.

are we not allowed to say whatever we like in private conversations? What about internet message boards? because Im damn sure Ive seen all kinds of extreme views and sick opinions expressed on forums. yes, even on TiBB.

I don't care if he was drunk or sober, in private or in public or filmed or not.. tha fact of the matter is he said to a woman "I love Hitler" and "People like you would be dead. Your mothers, your forefathers, would all be f---ing gassed."
He also called another woman "dirty jew face" and an "ugly disgusting *****"

Justbecause he didn't know his vileness was being filmed, does not make it any better!

[Zippy]

Justbecause he didn't know his vileness was being filmed, does not make it any better!

well it's all about context. Being secretly filmed and splashed all over the worlds media gives it much greater gravitas. In itself it was a minor incident. No, really. I doubt those women even took him seriously judging by their reaction.

and he wasn't inciting. Insulting, yes. Drunks often do.

[Lee.]

well it's all about context. Being secretly filmed and splashed all over the worlds media gives it much greater gravitas. In itself it was a minor incident. No, really. I doubt those women even took him seriously judging by their reaction.

and he wasn't inciting. Insulting, yes. Drunks often do.

You honestly don't think his comments were inciting??

[Zippy]

You honestly don't think his comments were inciting??

he wasn't encouraging anybody to do or think anything. So no.

he was insulting a couple of women.

[Lee.]

he wasn't encouraging anybody to do or think anything. So no.

he was insulting a couple of women.

So if they had been Pakistani women or black women and he had called them "dirty **** face" or "dirty ****** face" would that be "just insulting a couple of women"?

[Zippy]

So if they had been Pakistani women or black women and he had called them "dirty **** face" or "dirty ****** face" would that be "just insulting a couple of women"?

well I didnt use the word just

but yes

[Lee.]

well I didnt use the word just

but yes

And that's ok in your eyes?

[Zippy]

And that's ok in your eyes?

:rolleyes:

yeah I think insulting people is really really good

[Lee.]

:rolleyes:

yeah I think insulting people is really really good

:conf: So you agree it's wrong?

[MTVN]

I agree with what letmein said.

Freedom of speech cant have any restrictions or limitations otherwise it isnt free. Like letmein said, that doesnt mean what he said or did was right, but there is a big difference between the immoral and the illegal. You see people insulted all the time, you cant legislate to stop people feeling offended. Admittedly the severity of the insult was greater than normal but where do you the draw the line? You shouldnt have a line in the first place imo.

I can completely understand why he lost his job, but he should not be jailed or anything like that for expressing an opinion or insulting someone, no matter how disgusting we feel that opinion is.

[Lee.]

Over the last 50 years, I think our society has moved on so far when it comes to racism, gay rights, womens rights etc.

Recent generations are just brought up being taught that prejudice and hatred is wrong (before anyone jumps in, I know it still happens, however things are better than they were yesteryear)

I obviously think this is a good thing and there is no way I am now going to tell my kids that they have a right to say whatever the feck they want to people. They will be brought up as I was knowing right from wrong and knowing when NOT to say something!

[MTVN]

Over the last 50 years, I think our society has moved on so far when it comes to racism, gay rights, womens rights etc.

Recent generations are just brought up being taught that prejudice and hatred is wrong (before anyone jumps in, I know it still happens, however things are better than they were yesteryear)

I obviously think this is a good thing and there is no way I am now going to tell my kids that they have a right to say whatever the feck they want to people. They will be brought up as I was knowing right from wrong and knowing when NOT to say something!

But allowing a racist his right to free speech doesnt suddenly mean it'll be condoned. By all means condemn it, point out the flaws in the argument and it is likely they will be widely discredited, but do not criminalise someone for holding a view that we don't approve of. If we wish to live in a free society I think we have to allow everyone the right to speak their mind, because I dont feel we can go around picking and choosing who can have free speech and who cant, and starting to censor any views we dont like, that's been done far too much throughout history

[Lee.]

But allowing a racist his right to free speech doesnt suddenly mean it'll be condoned. By all means condemn it, point out the flaws in the argument and it is likely they will be widely discredited, but do not criminalise someone for holding a view that we don't approve of. If we wish to live in a free society I think we have to allow everyone the right to speak their mind, because I dont feel we can go around picking and choosing who can have free speech and who cant, and starting to censor any views we dont like, that's been done far too much throughout history

I'm not saying I'm completely against freddom of speech, I'm saying there has to be a line somewhere which deems hatred through racism/anti-semitism/homophobia as wrong or illegal. If this means that it is no longer freedom of speech then so be it.

I just don't think people should think it their right to say whatever they want to a fellow human being even if it means insulting them in the very worst way

[Zippy]

I'm not saying I'm completely against freddom of speech, I'm saying there has to be a line somewhere which deems hatred through racism/anti-semitism/homophobia as wrong or illegal.

the line is when somebody preaches hatred or incites a mass audience. Not when they just voice their opinion in private incidences like this.

following your logic our police and judicial system would be crippled under the weight of cases. Do you know how many people suffer insults day in day out? Gays, blacks, midgets...whoever, whatever. Millions. They suck it up.

Humans insult each other. Always have always will. And you seem to have a very PC list of insults you find intolerable.

what if somebody insults my dear Mother? should they be arrested too?

[Angus]

I'm not saying I'm completely against freddom of speech, I'm saying there has to be a line somewhere which deems hatred through racism/anti-semitism/homophobia as wrong or illegal. If this means that it is no longer freedom of speech then so be it.

I just don't think people should think it their right to say whatever they want to a fellow human being even if it means insulting them in the very worst way

Well I don't know about what goes down in France, but it is a criminal offence in the UK to racially or religiously verbally abuse another person, so I am pleased that he is being prosecuted.

[Lee.]

the line is when somebody preaches hatred or incites a mass audience. Not when they just voice their opinion in private incidences like this.

following your logic our police and judicial system would be crippled under the weight of cases. Do you know how many people suffer insults day in day out? Gays, blacks, midgets...whoever, whatever. Millions. They suck it up.

Humans insult each other. Always have always will. And you seem to have a very PC list of insults you find intolerable.

what if somebody insults my dear Mother? should they be arrested too?

Where's my PC list of intolerable insults?

[Zippy]

..racism/anti-semitism/homophobia as wrong or illegal.

people can hate on each other for all kinds of wrong and stupid reasons. I really don't see why these should get special treatment by law.

hate is hate

[Angus]

Where's my PC list of intolerable insults?

There is a difference between generally insulting someone to get a rise out of them, and using their race, religion or sexual orientation to harrass, insult and abuse them. It's totally irrelevant whether anyone on here thinks Galliano is hard done by - the fact is that he committed a prosecutable offence, end of.

I could say that I don't think it should be a criminal offence to drink alcohol in Saudi Arabia for example, but their laws say otherwise. Doesn't matter whether you agree or not. Do the crime, do the time.

[Lee.]

There is a difference between generally insulting someone to get a rise out of them, and using their race, religion or sexual orientation to harrass, insult and abuse them. It's totally irrelevant whether anyone on here thinks Galliano is hard done by - the fact is that he committed a prosecutable offence, end of.

I could say that I don't think it should be a criminal offence to drink alcohol in Saudi Arabia for example, but their laws say otherwise. Doesn't matter whether you agree or not. Do the crime, do the time.

Yes.. exactly this.

Insulting someone and inticing hate are two very different things, the latter being (and quite rightly so) a crime.

And how people keep thinking that by not knowing he was being filmed, exonerates Galliano is beyond me!

[Zippy]

Yes.. exactly this.

Insulting someone and inticing hate are two very different things, the latter being (and quite rightly so) a crime.

And how people keep thinking that by not knowing he was being filmed, exonerates Galliano is beyond me!

LOL now you suddenly get it?

and this isn't an all or nothing issue. Just because Im somewhat defending him it doesn't mean I dont think he hasn't done wrong. But it really needs putting in perspective.

the point about it being filmed is that the incident has now taken on a whole new life. Millions have now seen it. Without the camera just 3 people would have seen it. He did not intend it for a mass audience and therefore was NOT inciting anything. Jesus, Im just repeating myself at this point...

[Angus]

It doesn't matter whether he was being filmed or not - it seems some on here don't get that he actually committed a prosecutable offence, with or without a global audience. Just because he was drunk does not exonerate him or mitigate the offence.

[MTVN]

It doesn't matter whether he was being filmed or not - it seems some on here don't get that he actually committed a prosecutable offence, with or without a global audience. Just because he was drunk does not exonerate him or mitigate the offence.

I get that, under our current legal system, it may well have been a prosecutable offence, I'm just saying that I dont think it should be

[patsylimerick]

Happyland, you are completely right. If we lived in a society peopled exclusively by logical individuals capable of independent judgement - universal freedom of speech would be a great idea. But we don't. We live in the kind of society where hundreds of thousands of people wait with bated breath on the proclamations of utter idiots - because they're 'famous'. These malleable masses need protecting from dangerous, hateful ideologies.
Here in Ireland there's an offence, under Section 6 of the Public Order Act, that you did "use or engage in abusive, insulting or threatening words or behaviour" which would happily accommodate Galliano's actions. Of course this kind of nastiness should be illegal.

[patsylimerick]

deleted double post

[Zippy]

Of course this kind of nastiness should be illegal.


meanwhile...

people are being mugged, raped, burgled and murdered and there are no police officers available. Because theyre too busy dealing with a drunk who slurred pro Hitler insults.

[patsylimerick]

meanwhile...

people are being mugged, raped, burgled and murdered and there are no police officers available. Because theyre too busy dealing with a drunk who slurred pro Hitler insults.

I think one officer, maybe two, could have managed. Are you suggesting we do away with prosecuting 'lesser' crimes altogether, to economise on manpower?

[Zippy]

I think one officer, maybe two, could have managed. Are you suggesting we do away with prosecuting 'lesser' crimes altogether, to economise on manpower?

when you have limited resources you need to get real. Can't indulge in PC laws that are geared towards specific sensibilities. It should be about how threatening a person is being not the specific words they mutter. Free speech FTW.

[patsylimerick]

when you have limited resources you need to get real. Can't indulge in PC laws that are geared towards specific sensibilities. It should be about how threatening a person is being not the specific words they mutter. Free speech FTW.

:conf: Of course it should. I thought he was ranting at these women - not muttering? :conf:

[Zippy]

:conf: Of course it should. I thought he was ranting at these women - not muttering? :conf:

ranting?

yeah they sure sounded threatened by the butch thug :rolleyes:

[patsylimerick]

ranting?

yeah they sure sounded threatened by the butch thug :rolleyes:

One thing I've learned over the years - a man does NOT have to be six foot two and muscle bound to pose a physical threat to a woman.

[Shasown]

meanwhile...

people are being mugged, raped, burgled and murdered and there are no police officers available. Because theyre too busy dealing with a drunk who slurred pro Hitler insults.

There is a shortage of police in Paris?

[Zippy]

There is a shortage of police in Paris?

well I cba to check. But I suspect a french person would say yes.

you can never have too many police officers in a huge capital city so Ill take a guess at YES.

[Vicky.]

I dont get how he was 'inciting hatred' tbh. Just seems like a stupid drunken rant. And I'm sorry but judging by the video, the women didnt even seem too offended by it either. Giggling away.. not that that makes what he said right in any way, but I think this has been blown MASSIVELY out of proportion.

[Zippy]

...but I think this has been blown MASSIVELY out of proportion.

and this is the basis Im defending it on

big fuss about very little. No real victim(except himself now).

who the hell cares what he thinks about Hitler anyways?

[Lee.]

I dont get how he was 'inciting hatred' tbh. Just seems like a stupid drunken rant. And I'm sorry but judging by the video, the women didnt even seem too offended by it either. Giggling away.. not that that makes what he said right in any way, but I think this has been blown MASSIVELY out of proportion.

:amazed: You don't see how he was inciting hate? Are you serious?

Mind you.. You've already made your feelings known towards Jews... What was it you called the area you live? Jew Central? Nice :bored:

[MTVN]

^ Why did you use that amazed face? :laugh:

[Lee.]

^ Why did you use that amazed face? :laugh:

Because I'm amazed? :conf:

Why?

[MTVN]

Because I'm amazed? :conf:

Why?

I always think of that as a happy smiley, like when you're amazed in a good way that's all :laugh:

[Lee.]

I always think of that as a happy smiley, like when you're amazed in a good way that's all :laugh:

HAhah.. I see.

Yeah I suppose it does look kind of happy actually!

[Vicky.]

:amazed: You don't see how he was inciting hate? Are you serious?

Mind you.. You've already made your feelings known towards Jews... What was it you called the area you live? Jew Central? Nice :bored:

Its not inciting hatred in my eyes no. Its being ridiculously offensive and insulting for no reason, but not inciting hate. Inciting hatred would be a hate speech, or trying to convert others to his vile views, not a few drunken stupid sentences :S

As for the second part of your post, I knew as soon as I commented in here that some dickhead would bring that up. I also was pretty sure it would be you. Congratulations on being so predictable :)

Yes, I did call Bensham jew central, as do many others. Im assuming you have never been there if you do not see why :wavey: I have no problem with jews, except when they are rude to me, same as everyone else. However you chose to jump on one thing I said once and make it into something it isnt :joker:

[Lee.]

Its not inciting hatred in my eyes no. Its being ridiculously offensive and insulting for no reason, but not inciting hate. Inciting hatred would be a hate speech, or trying to convert others to his vile views, not a few drunken stupid sentences :S

As for the second part of your post, I knew as soon as I commented in here that some dickhead would bring that up. I also was pretty sure it would be you. Congratulations on being so predictable :)

Yes, I did call Bensham jew central, as do many others. Im assuming you have never been there if you do not see why :wavey: I have no problem with jews, except when they are rude to me, same as everyone else. However you chose to jump on one thing I said once and make it into something it isnt :joker:

To be honest Vicky, I don't think you should be referring to me or any other member as a "dickhead".
You can't really go about your job and infract people for insulting other members, when you're doing exactly that yourself.

[Vicky.]

To be honest Vicky, I don't think you should be referring to me or any other member as a "dickhead".
You can't really go about your job and infract people for insulting other members, when you're doing exactly that yourself.

Yeah maybe so. Guess I don't take being told I'm prejudiced because of ONE comment well. Shame on me.

[arista]

I dont get how he was 'inciting hatred' tbh. Just seems like a stupid drunken rant. And I'm sorry but judging by the video, the women didnt even seem too offended by it either. Giggling away.. not that that makes what he said right in any way, but I think this has been blown MASSIVELY out of proportion.



Yes, sure Drunken Rant
like Mel Gibson did.

But here his Owner is a Jew
so he could not have a Pro-Hitler Piss Head
anymore.

[Livia]

.........As for the second part of your post, I knew as soon as I commented in here that some dickhead would bring that up. I also was pretty sure it would be you. Congratulations on being so predictable :)

Yes, I did call Bensham jew central, as do many others. Im assuming you have never been there if you do not see why :wavey: I have no problem with jews, except when they are rude to me, same as everyone else. However you chose to jump on one thing I said once and make it into something it isnt :joker:

No, you obviously have no problem with Jews. Unless they're rude to you of course. But it seems it's okay for you to be rude to them, right? I expect you could have gone on to say that some of your best friends are Jews. Isn't that what people say just before or after they've made a slightly racist remark? I'm not even insulted because I'm a Jew; I'm insulted because you thought what you said was perfectly okay. I wonder if the Jews call it Racist D1ckhead Central? Not that you'd have a problem with that, right? I mean, you obviously don’t have a problem with calling people d1ckheads, so you shouldn’t mind others using it, surely.

The problem with what Galliano said, and with what this mod has said, is that it singles people out as different on the grounds of their race alone. If you're claiming your right to free speech in order to be able to wound someone verbally, then you need to look at your motivation and your morals. Here’s a thought, quite radical, but I’m going with it… what if we try to respect one another? We’re not that different you know. As Shakespeare’s most famous Jew, Shylock said, “Cut us, to we not bleed? Tickle us, do we not laugh?”

[Lee.]

No, you obviously have no problem with Jews. Unless they're rude to you of course. But it seems it's okay for you to be rude to them, right? I expect you could have gone on to say that some of your best friends are Jews. Isn't that what people say just before or after they've made a slightly racist remark? I'm not even insulted because I'm a Jew; I'm insulted because you thought what you said was perfectly okay. I wonder if the Jews call it Racist D1ckhead Central? Not that you'd have a problem with that, right? I mean, you obviously don’t have a problem with calling people d1ckheads, so you shouldn’t mind others using it, surely.

The problem with what Galliano said, and with what this mod has said, is that it singles people out as different on the grounds of their race alone. If you're claiming your right to free speech in order to be able to wound someone verbally, then you need to look at your motivation and your morals. Here’s a thought, quite radical, but I’m going with it… what if we try to respect one another? We’re not that different you know. As Shakespeare’s most famous Jew, Shylock said, “Cut us, to we not bleed? Tickle us, do we not laugh?”

This exactly.. this is what up and coming generations need drummed into them, NOT that they have a right to say whatever they want to others.

[Vicky.]

No, you obviously have no problem with Jews. Unless they're rude to you of course. But it seems it's okay for you to be rude to them, right? I expect you could have gone on to say that some of your best friends are Jews. Isn't that what people say just before or after they've made a slightly racist remark? I'm not even insulted because I'm a Jew; I'm insulted because you thought what you said was perfectly okay. I wonder if the Jews call it Racist D1ckhead Central? Not that you'd have a problem with that, right? I mean, you obviously don’t have a problem with calling people d1ckheads, so you shouldn’t mind others using it, surely.

I love how one comment on here gets blown so out of proportion :laugh:

As for the bit in bold, they may well do, I dont know. And no, I wouldnt really have a problem with that. Its only words at the end of the day

[Angus]

I love how one comment on here gets blown so out of proportion :laugh:

As for the bit in bold, they may well do, I dont know. And no, I wouldnt really have a problem with that. Its only words at the end of the day

Well its words that make the world go around, it's how we communicate with one another, how we convey love, anger, wisdom, hatred and the whole gamut of human emotion and achievement. Its also words that cause members on this forum to be banned, when they step over the line from debating to insulting and abusing. If "its only words after all", why then don't we have total freedom to say whatever the hell we like to anyone on this forum?

[GiRTh]

I love how one comment on here gets blown so out of proportion :laugh:

As for the bit in bold, they may well do, I dont know. And no, I wouldnt really have a problem with that. Its only words at the end of the dayYou laugh at this but what I laugh at is that you're a moderator on a forum and you dont realise that casually calling a forum member a d*ckhead or referring to a district in your town as 'Jew Central' are not things you should be enocuraging on the forum. Thats what I find funny.:joker:

On Topic. The comments were justification for Galliano being fired.

[Zippy]

:amazed: You don't see how he was inciting hate? Are you serious?



you really need to go google the word inciting.

[Lee.]

you really need to go google the word inciting.

It come from the Latin word "incitare" meaning "to spur or start up" I reckon his rant was pretty much "spurring" hate.

You really need to go google "French law".. His actions were illegal. End of

[Vicky.]

You laugh at this but what I laugh at is that you're a moderator on a forum and you dont realise that casually calling a forum member a d*ckhead or referring to a district in your town as 'Jew Central' are not things you should be enocuraging on the forum. Thats what I find funny.:joker:


Glad I amuse you then :D

You have made my day

[GiRTh]

Glad I amuse you then :D

You have made my dayIts interesting that you replied to me and not to the two Jewish forum members who are challenging your views. Do you have anything to say on topic?

[Zippy]

It come from the Latin word "incitare" meaning "to spur or start up" I reckon his rant was pretty much "spurring" hate.

You really need to go google "French law".. His actions were illegal. End of

he wasn't stirring up or encouraging anything. He was just insulting for his own entertainment.

Ive never said anything about whether it was illegal. People do lots of petty things that are technically illegal but it doesnt mean they should all be clogging up the system. A simple warning is all thats needed.

anybody saying anything insulting to somebody else could be arrested following your logic. Oh wait, only if the insult ticks the PC list of unacceptable targets.

[Vicky.]

Its interesting that you replied to me and not to the two Jewish forum members who are challenging your views. Do you have anything to say on topic?

I dont give a stuff about people challenging my views to be honest with you.

And who do you think you are, telling me who to reply to dear :love:

Edit. And I only see angus' reply to me :conf: Which I have now answered anyways as I didnt read the bit on the end.

[Vicky.]

Well its words that make the world go around, it's how we communicate with one another, how we convey love, anger, wisdom, hatred and the whole gamut of human emotion and achievement. Its also words that cause members on this forum to be banned, when they step over the line from debating to insulting and abusing. If "its only words after all", why then don't we have total freedom to say whatever the hell we like to anyone on this forum?

Sorry I missed this bit.

Do I need to write 'in my opinion' at the start of each post? Personally, if this was MY forum, there wouldnt be rules about insulting or anything. As it is, it is not my forum. And its other peoples rules that need to be upheld. (along with the fact that kiddies are on here too :p )

I just dont get how people are getting so worked up by two words. Jew central. Seriously. Wow, if the place was full of blondes/gingers/cats/purple people whatever I would call it the same thing. Its just a passing phrase :laugh:

[GiRTh]

I dont give a stuff about people challenging my views to be honest with you.

And who do you think you are, telling me who to reply to dear :love:I didnt tell you who to reply to I merely pointed out that you didnt post an on topic reply. I thought it was a fair point TBH not deserving your 'who the hell' response. You cant complain this thread is off topic as you are the one responsible for it being so.

On topic - I appreiate Galliano's right to freedom of speech but given what he said the sacking was justified given the negative effect it has had on the Dior name.

[Vicky.]

I didnt tell you who to reply to I merely pointed out that you didnt post an on topic reply. I thought it was a fair point TBH not deserving your 'who the hell' response. You cant complain this thread is off topic as you are the one responsible for it being so.

On topic - I appreiate Galliano's right to freedom of speech but given what he said the sacking was justified given the negative effect it has had on the Dior name.

I did that where? :S

And also, you only added the 'on topic' bit on your other post as an afterthought, so I find it quite laughable that you are challenging me on replying to an offtopic post, with an offtopic answer. So you obviously have no real problem with offtopic posts, you are just wanting to moan at me. Which is also fine. As its YOUR right :D

Also, this wouldnt have even been took offtopic, if one FM hadnt decided to bring in something pretty irrelevant to THIS thread(as it was an off the cuff remark elsewhere, a while ago)...to try and make my opinion less valid. Funny how you blame me for someone else bringing in irrelevant arguments, eh? :laugh2:

[Zippy]

I don't see anything wrong with the term jew central. It just simply means lots of jewish people live there. ffs some people really need to quit applying great meaning to simple comments. I have no idea whether Vicky is racist or anything thing else but a comment like that certainly doesn't convict her.

There's nothing wrong with pointing out peoples differences. I think you'll find it's a primeval instinct of human beings and the root of tribalism.

[GiRTh]

I did that where? :S

And also, you only added the 'on topic' bit on your other post as an afterthought, so I find it quite laughable that you are challenging me on replying to an offtopic post, with an offtopic answer. So you obviously have no real problem with offtopic posts, you are just wanting to moan at me. Which is also fine. As its YOUR right :D

Also, this wouldnt have even been took offtopic, if one FM hadnt decided to bring in something pretty irrelevant to THIS thread(as it was an off the cuff remark elsewhere, a while ago)...to try and make my opinion less valid. Funny how you blame me for someone else bringing in irrelevant arguments, eh? :laugh2:I posted my other post before i finished it. The on topic part was always part of it. Trust you to jump to such conclusions.

I feel the point was valid due to your history on such topics. You said what you said, no one forced you to say it. Surely you should have no problem with us commenting on it.

[Vicky.]

Nope, no problem with people commenting on it. Problem with people making me out to be racist based on one comment though. And what on earth do you mean my history with such topics?

And no, your ontopic part was NOT part of the original post. I can see the first edit btw. So no jumping to conclusions here :)

[Angus]

I don't see anything wrong with the term jew central. It just simply means lots of jewish people live there. ffs some people really need to quit applying great meaning to simple comments. I have no idea whether Vicky is racist or anything thing else but a comment like that certainly doesn't convict her.

There's nothing wrong with pointing out peoples differences. I think you'll find it's a primeval instinct of human beings and the root of tribalism.


So basically it's the prerogative of the person making the comment to determine whether or not he is insulting, offending and/or abusing the person to whom the comment is directed?:bored: Therefore no consideration needs to be given to the way in which the comment is received or the insult, abuse and/or offence being caused to the recipient of unsolicited comments which are, after all, merely opinions or "just words" directed towards them? Ooookay - whatever:rolleyes:

[GiRTh]

Nope, no problem with people commenting on it. Problem with people making me out to be racist based on one comment though. And what on earth do you mean my history with such topics?

And no, your ontopic part was NOT part of the original post. I can see the first edit btw. So no jumping to conclusions here :)What?:joker: You cannot possibly know that? How do you know I dont edit my posts in say notepad++ then cut and paste. I find it funny the way you jump to such wild conclusions.

No one is implying you're a racist but you made a biased comments that we are all entitled to comment on.

[Zippy]

So basically it's the prerogative of the person making the comment to determine whether or not he is insulting, offending and/or abusing the person to whom the comment is directed?:bored: Therefore no consideration needs to be given to the way in which the comment is received or the insult, abuse and/or offence being caused to the recipient of unsolicited comments which are, after all, merely opinions or "just words" directed towards them? Ooookay - whatever:rolleyes:

only the person making the comment knows how it was intended. If you don't say something with any malice or ill intent then I don't think others have the right to twist it that way.

and you need to be consistent because Ive certainly seen many comments from you that are very hardfaced and totally lacking in any compassion. But now you wanna be all precious about a term like jew central?

whatever indeed!

[Vicky.]

So basically it's the prerogative of the person making the comment to determine whether or not he is insulting, offending and/or abusing the person to whom the comment is directed?:bored: Therefore no consideration needs to be given to the way in which the comment is received or the insult, abuse and/or offence being caused to the recipient of unsolicited comments which are, after all, merely opinions or "just words" directed towards them? Ooookay - whatever:rolleyes:

Would you have been so insulted if I, for example, referred to a street I used to live on as 'blondie avenue'? Just curious

[Vicky.]

What?:joker: You cannot possibly know that? How do you know I dont edit my posts in say notepad++ then cut and paste. I find it funny the way you jump to such wild conclusions.


What I meant is..I can see the first post you made. And then what it was edited to :joker:

[Angus]

Would you have been so insulted if I, for example, referred to a street I used to live on as 'blondie avenue'? Just curious

I'm not at all insulted by anything you or anyone else has said on this thread, since I am debating from a philosophical and theoretical viewpoint, and offering my point of view (or have I misunderstood what "serious debates" is supposed to be about?). I am not Jewish but I can see that certain comments made on here would be considered offensive by a Jew. I am not blonde, but maybe that comment would also be offensive to someone who is. Who knows?

I have already stated that there is no such thing, in my opinion, as freedom of speech to say whatever you like. Anyone who believes there is, is seriously mistaken as they would find to their cost if they want to test that in real life and go insult some random strangers. You made the statement that they are "only words" which is probably the most disingenuous comment I have read so far.

[Vicky.]

But to me, it is only words. Others might think differently. I personally dont get offended by things people say. Though with the rant in question (that the threads actually about) after watching the video, I do see how people will be offended by it. But I still stand by what I said about the women he was speaking to didnt actually seem offended at the time, nor do I think he was inciting hatred. Just being an ignorant drunken fool :S

And as I have said a few times in this thread, and in the other if I remember rightly, 'jew central' is just a passing phrase to me. Maybe that is also ignorance on my part, but I dont see it any different to calling (as already used as an example) a street 'blondie avenue' because it is full of blondes. I really dont.

And I also would not be offended the other way round. Eg. If someone called my street 'speccy street' (as I wear glasses, was the first thing I could think of :p ) Maybe Im just not easily offended or as delicate as others. Who knows.

[MTVN]

I'm not at all insulted by anything you or anyone else has said on this thread, since I am debating from a philosophical and theoretical viewpoint, and offering my point of view (or have I misunderstood what "serious debates" is supposed to be about?). I am not Jewish but I can see that certain comments made on here would be considered offensive by a Jew. I am not blonde, but maybe that comment would also be offensive to someone who is. Who knows?

I have already stated that there is no such thing, in my opinion, as freedom of speech to say whatever you like. Anyone who believes there is, is seriously mistaken as they would find to their cost if they want to test that in real life and go insult some random strangers. You made the statement that they are "only words" which is probably the most disingenuous comment I have read so far.

I think your comments about Muslims in the past have been a hell of a lot more offensive than calling an area heavily populated by Jewish people as "Jew central"

[Angus]

]only the person making the comment knows how it was intended. If you don't say something with any malice or ill intent then I don't think others have the right to twist it that way. [/B]


and you need to be consistent because Ive certainly seen many comments from you that are very hardfaced and totally lacking in any compassion. But now you wanna be all precious about a term like jew central?

whatever indeed!

So the recipient of a comment has to now be psychic in order to determine whether the speaker "meant it" maliciously or not?:rolleyes: It really astounds me on this forum the number of people who don't understand the difference between personal opinion and playing the devil's advocate.

Oh, I'm nothing if not consistent, there is no ambiguity about my comments - I don't hide behind political correctness, nor do I court popularity on what is essentially a debating forum. If I feel strongly about something I will state my case and I only react to others' insults, I don't set out to deliberately offend individuals as so many on here do. Friends I have a plenty in real life, I have no need to make psuedo friends in cyberspace. No fake camaraderie or sad cliques for me. There's always the "ignore" option available to anyone hacked off with me and my opinions - feel free.:xyxwave:

[Zippy]

I can't even remember when I last got offended by anybodies comments. You'd have to say something pretty extreme. But even then I'd just dismiss you as an idiot probably.

whereas others seem so fragile and oversensitive you wonder why they even crawled out from under their duvets.

Im sure really fat people hear insulting comments everyday they step out of the front door. I don't think the law offers them much protection. But insult somebodies race or sexuality and its apparently a clear cut case. This is what I find so ridiculous and unfair. We all know Galliano wouldnt be facing prosecution if he'd been ranting fat insults at those women. Even though they'd probably be more hurtful to them.

[Livia]

I can't even remember when I last got offended by anybodies comments. You'd have to say something pretty extreme. But even then I'd just dismiss you as an idiot probably.

whereas others seem so fragile and oversensitive you wonder why they even crawled out from under their duvets.

Im sure really fat people hear insulting comments everyday they step out of the front door. I don't think the law offers them much protection. But insult somebodies race or sexuality and its apparently a clear cut case. This is what I find so ridiculous and unfair. We all know Galliano wouldnt be facing prosecution if he'd been ranting fat insults at those women. Even though they'd probably be more hurtful to them.


You cannot quantify the level of "hurt" someone feelsunless you have been discriminated against. And I don't just mean name calling. Trust me, Vicky's comments are small fry compared to what I've put up with from some people over the years and I'm sure those people would feel justified in their comments as they were "their own opinon". Indeed, I have had MUCH worse than Vicky's comments directed at me on this forum, depsite the fact it says in the rules that any kind of racial abuse "will not be tolerated". Ha! So much for that. Feeling irked at some people's stupidity and tactlessness doesn't make me fragile and oversensitive, it makes me angry.

I said in my reply to Vicky that I wasn't insulted simply because I am a Jew; I was insulted because she is a moderator here. A moderator who hands out infractions and bans for what she considers to be rule breaks, and yet she has not only posted something clumsy and tactless, she has struggled in post after post to justify herself.... and added emoticons presumably to make her point stronger.

[Angus]

You cannot quantify the level of "hurt" someone feelsunless you have been discriminated against. And I don't just mean name calling. Trust me, Vicky's comments are small fry compared to what I've put up with from some people over the years and I'm sure those people would feel justified in their comments as they were "their own opinon". Indeed, I have had MUCH worse than Vicky's comments directed at me on this forum, depsite the fact it says in the rules that any kind of racial abuse "will not be tolerated". Ha! So much for that. Feeling irked at some people's stupidity and tactlessness doesn't make me fragile and oversensitive, it makes me angry.

I said in my reply to Vicky that I wasn't insulted simply because I am a Jew; I was insulted because she is a moderator here. A moderator who hands out infractions and bans for what she considers to be rule breaks, and yet she has not only posted something clumsy and tactless, she has struggled in post after post to justify herself.... and added emoticons presumably to make her point stronger.

It does seem that some people are incapable of "walking in someone else's shoes". The "I'm not offended, so therefore I can't see why you are" statements just show a complete lack of empathy.

[Zippy]

It does seem that some people are incapable of "walking in someone else's shoes". The "I'm not offended, so therefore I can't see why you are" statements just show a complete lack of empathy.

whereas you just ooze empathy, sympathy and compassion, right?

pmsl

[Angus]

whereas you just ooze empathy, sympathy and compassion, right?

pmsl

For those that deserve it, yes, and you don't fall into that category. I note you have avoided responding to Livia's post - but then you can't really, can you?:rolleyes:

[Zippy]

I note you have avoided responding to Livia's post - but then you can't really, can you?:rolleyes:

there's nothing to respond to. If thats her feelings so be it.

It's mostly about Vicky anyways and I can't speak for her

so be quiet and mind your own business :xyxwave: