Justice System

[Grimnir]

Are you happy with UK Justice system?

What Justice system would you have in place?

Here is mine

All sentences would be between 10 and 30 years depending on severity of the crime. Most serious crimes such as murder, rape, child abuse, terrorism, trafficking would carry automatic LIFE sentence.
Parole and probation system would be scrapped completely. If a prisoner is deemed a possible threat to society they stay in prison.

Each prison cell would have 2 bunk beds, toilet and sink. No televisions, newspapers, pool tables or any other form of entertainment would be available.
Educational documentary would be made and shown to schools throughout the country showing just how awful prisons are.
The prisoners who will one day have freedom will never want to go back and those who are there for life will be punished till they die.

Next there would be special rehab type prison hospitals. These are for criminals caught in possession of drugs and alcohol related drunken disorderly offences such as fighting after a night out.

If caught with drugs you are sent to the rehab and stay there until you volunteer yourself for drug detox. This is when you spend 1 months in isolation with no drugs of any kind available. After the month has passed you are released back into society.
For alcohol related crimes you spend 1 month in isolation with no alcohol in an attempt to make you get your life sorted.
These rehab prisons are not as harsh as the prisons, books and television is available. They also have help and advice from professionals.

[MTVN]

I'd support a restorative justice system, and have a balance between the rights of both the victim and the offender, and between retribution and rehabilitations. Under no circumstances would the death penalty ever be implemented, and I'd stop criminalising people for victimless crimes; prostitution etc.

[Tom.]

Its simply not economically feasible to have these ideal prison sentences. The only way to do it is for tax to go up even more. The prisons are already vastly populated and it already costs in excess of £2bn a year.

I think the prison system does well under the constaints its given, but they should strip away the luxuries and the courts need to use a bit more common sense over the law books.

[Tom4784]

Are you happy with UK Justice system?

What Justice system would you have in place?

Here is mine

All sentences would be between 10 and 30 years depending on severity of the crime. Most serious crimes such as murder, rape, child abuse, terrorism, trafficking would carry automatic LIFE sentence.
Parole and probation system would be scrapped completely. If a prisoner is deemed a possible threat to society they stay in prison.

Each prison cell would have 2 bunk beds, toilet and sink. No televisions, newspapers, pool tables or any other form of entertainment would be available.
Educational documentary would be made and shown to schools throughout the country showing just how awful prisons are.
The prisoners who will one day have freedom will never want to go back and those who are there for life will be punished till they die.

Next there would be special rehab type prison hospitals. These are for criminals caught in possession of drugs and alcohol related drunken disorderly offences such as fighting after a night out.

If caught with drugs you are sent to the rehab and stay there until you volunteer yourself for drug detox. This is when you spend 1 months in isolation with no drugs of any kind available. After the month has passed you are released back into society.
For alcohol related crimes you spend 1 month in isolation with no alcohol in an attempt to make you get your life sorted.
These rehab prisons are not as harsh as the prisons, books and television is available. They also have help and advice from professionals.

Wait what? So I could steal an apple from a shop and be sent down for a decade if they decide to press charges? :laugh:

I'm sorry but there's so much wrong with your idea that it's laughable.

I think the system we have now is fine, just needs some adjustments here and there.

[Shaun]

I'm not really sure someone in prison for fighting after a night out is really worth the effort of rehabilitation - it could just as easily be a one-off moment of madness. Same for drugs possession: not all are addicts.

I agree with the basic prison cells though - the whole redemption idea and gaining of privileges (such as TV or whatever) is just a waste of money, to be honest. As much as I'm in favour of the idea of rehabilitation.

[Grimnir]

Wait what? So I could steal an apple from a shop and be sent down for a decade if they decide to press charges? :laugh:

I'm sorry but there's so much wrong with your idea that it's laughable.

I think the system we have now is fine, just needs some adjustments here and there.

System is fine is it?

How about when gang of youths beat someone to death, laugh in court and get 10-15 years only. Once they in prison they have a laugh and could even be let out in half the time.

Or paedophiles who get sentences like 3 years

If the offence is a little kid stealing apple or sweets they would not go prison for 10 years obviously. If a burglar breaks into a house, invades someones home and steals valuable possessions of someone. That kind of scum goes to prison for 10 years at least!
If they break into the home of elderly couple and beat them up then those fu**ers go away for LIFE.

You are the one with laughable ideas of justice

[Shasown]

A minor problem with the removal of so called luxuries, is the fact you remove them and it will increase resentment, boredom and anger.

Most prisoners are life's under achievers, people who had educational problems, life's drop outs. Build up boredom anger resentment, fustration etc and you go back to prison riots, increased assaults on prison staff etc.

Treat a man like a dog and he will eventually bite.

[Stu]

Give 'em all the bloody chair etc.

The country would be near bankrupt alone simply on the back of processing and detaining every single person caught with any amount of drug. You do realize that right?

[Zippy]

I think there should definitely be much longer sentences for any form of violent crime or intrusive crimes where you are a physical threat to others.

this could be counteracted with shorter prison sentences for non victim crimes(like benefit fraud). With criminals that are not a threat to others they should be more creative with punishments and give them community service or house arrest even. If it involves money fraud then fine them and make them pay out of their wages or benefits.

Prisons are just filled up with the wrong people. Hardcore burglars, muggers and violent thugs are constantly thrown back out time and time again even though everybody knows they will re-offend in a matter of time. There should be a 3 strikes rule; after 3 convictions its a life sentence automatically. Like they had in New york and was a huge success.

[Tom4784]

System is fine is it?

How about when gang of youths beat someone to death, laugh in court and get 10-15 years only. Once they in prison they have a laugh and could even be let out in half the time.

Or paedophiles who get sentences like 3 years

If the offence is a little kid stealing apple or sweets they would not go prison for 10 years obviously. If a burglar breaks into a house, invades someones home and steals valuable possessions of someone. That kind of scum goes to prison for 10 years at least!
If they break into the home of elderly couple and beat them up then those fu**ers go away for LIFE.

You are the one with laughable ideas of justice

I just thank god that bloodthirsty people like you who dress up their bloodlust as 'justice' will never get the power to affect anything. You've got a warped sense of time if you think 10-15 years isn't very long considering that for serious crimes you'd be sent to Class A prisons which is the equivalent of Maximum Security which is far from the easy breezy time you delude yourself into believing it is.

You've obviously read too much Daily Mail or one of it's counterparts and think that all prisons are like modified holiday parks which is far from the truth as is people getting lesser sentences. It's rare cases that get highlighted by the press and made out to be the norm in order to stir a reaction in their readers so they keep on reading.

Your hardline approach would fail miserably, as others have said it's not financially viable and it's generally an utterly ridiculous idea.

[Stu]

The balls out, 'get tough on prisoners' mentality always amuses me. Simply being locked up and away from society is punishment in itself. I couldn't care less how comftorable the beds are or how many books they are allowed read. They are in the process of being punished enough as it is. Let them educate themselves whilst they are there instead of just caging them up in solitude. What difference does it make to your life, really?

~liberal elite 4 lyf dawg.

[Tom4784]

The balls out, 'get tough on prisoners' mentality always amuses me. Simply being locked up and away from society is punishment in itself. I couldn't care less how comftorable the beds are or how many books they are allowed read. They are in the process of being punished enough as it is. Let them educate themselves whilst they are there instead of just caging them up in solitude. What difference does it make to your life, really?

~liberal elite 4 lyf dawg.

Exactly, surely the solitude of it would be more damaging in the long run as well? Books and a community TV won't make their prison lives any easier in the slightest.

[Zippy]

Simply being locked up and away from society is punishment in itself.

not for some. They become quickly accustomed and for many its a better life than they have outside. Much better in fact.

seeing them with pool tables, computer games, TVs, dvds and God knows what else is pretty offensive to many. Many free law abiding people can't even afford to have these things.

Im not for treating them like animals but all these luxuries are just too much. No wonder most keep going back to prison.

[Tom.]

The balls out, 'get tough on prisoners' mentality always amuses me. Simply being locked up and away from society is punishment in itself. I couldn't care less how comftorable the beds are or how many books they are allowed read. They are in the process of being punished enough as it is. Let them educate themselves whilst they are there instead of just caging them up in solitude. What difference does it make to your life, really?

~liberal elite 4 lyf dawg.

Reoffending rates have increased as the prisons have become more relaxed. Coincidence?

For some people, prison is a better life than outside, hence some people want to go back in. A comfortable prison just simply isn't a big enough deterrent from crime.

[Stu]

not for some. They become quickly accustomed and for many its a better life than they have outside. Much better in fact.

seeing them with pool tables, computer games, TVs, dvds and God knows what else is pretty offensive to many. Many free law abiding people can't even afford to have these things.

Im not for treating them like animals but all these luxuries are just too much. No wonder most keep going back to prison.
Most who enjoy prison don't enjoy it for the pool tables and DVD's though. They can get that outside. They become addicted to the stability of it. The constant meals, the structure without need to be motivated in life, that's the draw. The sheer sense of being institutionalized.

I wouldn't give them video game consoles and 24/7 TV but occasional screenings? Sure. Pool tables? Not a problem. No harm in the lads having a game of pool with each other. Worse things could happen in there without it.

You have to take in to account the severity of the crimes too of course, I know.

[Tom4784]

I think a lot of people overestimate the luxuries, considering the company they'll be forced keep in prison and how miserable it is I doubt an Xbox would make it easier. In fact thinking about it the luxuries would make you a target surely?

[Shasown]

not for some. They become quickly accustomed and for many its a better life than they have outside. Much better in fact.

seeing them with pool tables, computer games, TVs, dvds and God knows what else is pretty offensive to many. Many free law abiding people can't even afford to have these things.

Im not for treating them like animals but all these luxuries are just too much. No wonder most keep going back to prison.



There are a small number of repeat offenders who do find life inside easier than life outside. However most repeat offenders have turned back to crime because they cant make a go of life after release.

Does this actually point to the fact that rehabilitation and support services after release are very poor?

[Grimnir]

removing all entertainment and making prisons very basic is not just to make them more punishing and hellish but also to save lots of money that is wasted on them
many criminals will be less inclined to commit crimes if they know they will get sent to a tough prison for a very long sentence so prisons will eventually have fewer inmates and society will be improved
money should not be an issue when it comes to keeping law abiding citizens safe from criminal scum
i hate how loony left always stick up for the criminal and dont give a sh** about the victims of crime

[Grimnir]

I just thank god that bloodthirsty people like you who dress up their bloodlust as 'justice' will never get the power to affect anything. You've got a warped sense of time if you think 10-15 years isn't very long considering that for serious crimes you'd be sent to Class A prisons which is the equivalent of Maximum Security which is far from the easy breezy time you delude yourself into believing it is.

You've obviously read too much Daily Mail or one of it's counterparts and think that all prisons are like modified holiday parks which is far from the truth as is people getting lesser sentences. It's rare cases that get highlighted by the press and made out to be the norm in order to stir a reaction in their readers so they keep on reading.

Your hardline approach would fail miserably, as others have said it's not financially viable and it's generally an utterly ridiculous idea.

your loony left liberal approach is beyond utterly ridiculous
why do you defend criminal scum?
i bet you don't give a sh** about victims of crime
probably just say crap like oh well thats life live with it, now let me listen to me ipod
i don't read papers ever i just see the news and know that crime is increasing and justice system stinks

if a gang beat someone to death for a laugh what sentence would you suggest for them? would you be filming it on phone and laughing? would you get angry reading the story or not?

[Tom4784]

your loony left liberal approach is beyond utterly ridiculous
why do you defend criminal scum?
i bet you don't give a sh** about victims of crime
probably just say crap like oh well thats life live with it, now let me listen to me ipod
i don't read papers ever i just see the news and know that crime is increasing and justice system stinks

if a gang beat someone to death for a laugh what sentence would you suggest for them? would you be filming it on phone and laughing? would you get angry reading the story or not?

You lack the subtlety to understand me, just because I'm not all for inhumane punishments doesn't mean I'm defending the criminals I just think violent and torturous punishments for violent crimes is hypocrtical, We'd be doing the same thing as them but dressing it up as justice when we as a society need to be above that..

I've lost a family member to violet crime, I know how it feels but I also know better then to want revenge, the person who did it is rotting in prison now and I don't care if he has a telly or not, I know how bleak those places are and regardless of treats people will still suffer there, people like you always forget the other inmates and how they'll make life hell.

Your assumptions have lost you any credibility you might have had, you know nothing of anything of how the law or the prison systems work, and the fact you've resorted to painting me as some criminal sympathiser is hilarious. Take your ranting elsewhere because it'll get you nowhere here. Just because you've seen a news bulletin doesn't make you an expert on the ethics and ins and outs of crime and punishment.

[Vicky.]

Pretty much the only difference I would make is that LIFE sentences mean just that. Not 10 years or whatever.

[Niamh.]

Pretty much the only difference I would make is that LIFE sentences mean just that. Not 10 years or whatever.

this but also higher sentences for paedophiles, rapists and any violent crimes

[Shasown]

removing all entertainment and making prisons very basic is not just to make them more punishing and hellish but also to save lots of money that is wasted on them
many criminals will be less inclined to commit crimes if they know they will get sent to a tough prison for a very long sentence so prisons will eventually have fewer inmates and society will be improved
money should not be an issue when it comes to keeping law abiding citizens safe from criminal scum
i hate how loony left always stick up for the criminal and dont give a sh** about the victims of crime

A reasonable argument I suppose, unfortunately its not backed up by any evidence whatsoever.

If you educated yourself on the subject, lets say for example going onto the Ministry of Justices website and looking at re offending rates, you would know that prisoners who serve in the more harsher regimes within the prison system have higher re-offending rates.

The lowest re-offending rates within the whole justice system occur when the criminal is involved with some form of community work and rehabilitating education. Either in or out of prison.

[Stu]

money should not be an issue when it comes to keeping law abiding citizens safe from criminal scum
Money is an issue though. Again ... where do you plan on sourcing the funds to apply forced rehab to every single person caught with any amount of recreational drugs? It's impossible. And most of them are not some dangerous threat to society that citizens need to be 'safe' from.

[Vicky.]

Possession shouldnt be illegal anyways, but thats a whole other story :laugh:

From my experience, you are MUCH less likely to be violent or anything on drugs anyways. Personally I just go into my own happy little world and talk a load of ****e.

[Niamh.]

Possession shouldnt be illegal anyways, but thats a whole other story :laugh:

From my experience, you are MUCH less likely to be violent or anything on drugs anyways. Personally I just go into my own happy little world and talk a load of ****e.

I agree, alcohol tends to make people far more violent and aggressive but you always hear people say "Oh, he must have been on something"! eh no he was drunk.........

[Stu]

I do love that happy little world.

[Tom.]

Rehabilitation is what drug addicts need, not locking up. Some people are beyond help, in which case the NHS should start withdrawing funding for drug related illnesses.

Locking them up will lead to increases in incarcerated suicide and if the prisons will help them then it defeats the object of the help, because it could be done willingly in a hospital environment and not forcefully in a prison environment. There would be a higher liklihood of a relapse in a prison environment because people would have the mentality to get clean so they can get out.

If people don't want the help its up to them, its their health they're damaging but linking back to the start of the post, if thats the case then that person shouldn't be allowed treatment for drug related illnesses on the NHS.

[Stu]

The prison system is awash with drugs anyway. It's like sending a wino to a speakeasy.

Drugs should be treated as purely a health matter. Not a judicial one. If someone on drugs commits an act that infringes on the rights of others then yes, the act itself should be treated as a criminal matter.

[Grimnir]

A reasonable argument I suppose, unfortunately its not backed up by any evidence whatsoever.

If you educated yourself on the subject, lets say for example going onto the Ministry of Justices website and looking at re offending rates, you would know that prisoners who serve in the more harsher regimes within the prison system have higher re-offending rates.

The lowest re-offending rates within the whole justice system occur when the criminal is involved with some form of community work and rehabilitating education. Either in or out of prison.

who do you think you are telling people to educate themselves as if you are some all knowing wise monk, stop being condescending

your logic is all screwed up on reasons for re offending rates

the reason the more hardline prisoners have a higher re offending rate is not because they served sentence in the "harsher regime" it is because they are more hardline criminals! that is why they are there in the first place

the ones with low re offending rates taking part in community service are the lower level criminals so naturally there is a much greater chance they will not repeat offend once they are released

to lower the re offending rate, hardline criminals should be given much longer sentences and prison be made more punishing (no violence and torture as you exaggerated)
if they are in prison for longer, which they should be anyway, they cannot commit crimes can they
if the prison is a hellhole then they are much less likely to re offend as they will not want to go back ever
and the threat of going to a hellhole prison will lower crime rates

[Tom.]

But it isn't necessarily a conscience decision whether you'll reoffend or not. Some people are just predispositioned to crime.

[Shasown]

who do you think you are telling people to educate themselves as if you are some all knowing wise monk, stop being condescending

your logic is all screwed up on reasons for re offending rates

the reason the more hardline prisoners have a higher re offending rate is not because they served sentence in the "harsher regime" it is because they are more hardline criminals! that is why they are there in the first place

the ones with low re offending rates taking part in community service are the lower level criminals so naturally there is a much greater chance they will not repeat offend once they are released

to lower the re offending rate, hardline criminals should be given much longer sentences and prison be made more punishing (no violence and torture as you exaggerated)
if they are in prison for longer, which they should be anyway, they cannot commit crimes can they
if the prison is a hellhole then they are much less likely to re offend as they will not want to go back ever
and the threat of going to a hellhole prison will lower crime rates

There really is no limit to the depths of your ignorance is there? I take it from your answer you didnt go to the Ministry of Justice's site?

All prisons have different regimes, practically no two prisons are run the same, nor do they have the same facilities. Classes, rehabilitation & work courses and facilities all vary.

I mentioned community work not community service I also used the term rehabilitation education, you know seeing crime from the victims point of view, anger management etc.

The categories of prisons have more to do with security measures imposed not about the regime inside a prison.

Hardline prisoners who were guilty of serious crimes like murder etc are often released under a condition called life license. If they offend again they go back in.

What violence and torture did I exaggerate?

Prisoners can and do commit crimes in prison.

Incidentally its not my logic on re offending rates its the Ministry of Justice's own figures not mine. I didnt post them on their site.

[Grimnir]

There really is no limit to the depths of your ignorance is there? I take it from your answer you didnt go to the Ministry of Justice's site?

All prisons have different regimes, practically no two prisons are run the same, nor do they have the same facilities. Classes, rehabilitation & work courses and facilities all vary.

I mentioned community work not community service I also used the term rehabilitation education, you know seeing crime from the victims point of view, anger management etc.

The categories of prisons have more to do with security measures imposed not about the regime inside a prison.

Hardline prisoners who were guilty of serious crimes like murder etc are often released under a condition called life license. If they offend again they go back in.

What violence and torture did I exaggerate?

Prisoners can and do commit crimes in prison.

Incidentally its not my logic on re offending rates its the Ministry of Justice's own figures not mine. I didnt post them on their site.


i dont need to go to the website as you have already stated what the figures say. I am not arguing if the figures are true or not

you said that on the website figures show that criminals who spend their time under harsh regime have a higher re offending rate correct?

I am saying the reason the re offending rate is higher is because they are hardline criminals, not because they were prisoners under a harsh regime of the prison.

why do you keep being an arrogant prick and be insulting looking down your nose as you argue with somone calling them ignorant and such
you sound like a right snob

[Shasown]

i dont need to go to the website as you have already stated what the figures say. I am not arguing if the figures are true or not

you said that on the website figures show that criminals who spend their time under harsh regime have a higher re offending rate correct?

I am saying the reason the re offending rate is higher is because they are hardline criminals, not because they were prisoners under a harsh regime of the prison.

Then you were wrong.

It doesnt say they are hardline criminals it states what sort of regime has what sort of results. Harsher regimes have higher reoffending rates.

As I said maybe you should educate yourself on the situation first before making incorrect statements. Saves looking stupid.

[Zippy]

But it isn't necessarily a conscience decision whether you'll reoffend or not. Some people are just predispositioned to crime.

Oh diddums. God forbid they take responsibility for their actions like the rest of us have to.

Of course its a conscious decision. They know it's wrong and they choose to proceed. They don't commit crime in a subconscious state!

[Grimnir]

Then you were wrong.

It doesnt say they are hardline criminals it states what sort of regime has what sort of results. Harsher regimes have higher reoffending rates.

As I said maybe you should educate yourself on the situation first before making incorrect statements. Saves looking stupid.

you are just acting like a baby troll now

The prisoners in a tough prison have higher reoffending rates.
We got prisoners, tough prison and higher reoffending rates, right understand?
Lets break it down simply like alphabet for you in case you a bit slow
You are saying B causes C
I am saying A causes C
They dont reoffend because they have been in a tough prison, you seriously think that?
They reoffend because they are criminals scum and have no respect for other people
do you need a diagram and legend to know what A B and C stand for?

[Shasown]

you are just acting like a baby troll now

The prisoners in a tough prison have higher reoffending rates.
We got prisoners, tough prison and higher reoffending rates, right understand?
Lets break it down simply like alphabet for you in case you a bit slow
You are saying B causes C
I am saying A causes C
They dont reoffend because they have been in a tough prison, you seriously think that?
They reoffend because they are criminals scum and have no respect for other people
do you need a diagram and legend to know what A B and C stand for?

Wow your time at school wasn't completely wasted then? You learnt some of the alphabet. I am impressed, I bet mommy is so proud of you.

Could you provide some evidence for that? Any at all, nope thought not.

Or is it just what your miniscule brain tells you should be so. You need to get a grip on reality me old fruit. Just because you say it is so doesnt make it so.

[Tom.]

Oh diddums. God forbid they take responsibility for their actions like the rest of us have to.

Of course its a conscious decision. They know it's wrong and they choose to proceed. They don't commit crime in a subconscious state!

I didn't mean it in that sense, I meant that when a lot of criminals commit crime, they do it because they think its right or they think they'll get away with it. They think they'll be able to get away with it or justify it, and so won't be going to prison for it.

[Livia]

I think that you get the justice you can afford. In the early 90s, Ernest Saunders, former chairman of the Guinness Group, was released early from prison on compassionate grounds on account that he was suffering from Alzheimer's disease. Soon after being released he made a full recovery - the first person in the history of the world ever to make a recovery from Alzheimer's. Of course, despite his doctors pleading his Alzheimer's case back then, with copious amounts of "evidence", he now says he was suffering from depression and not Alzheimer's.

Does anyone believe that a working-class Joe Schmoe would be released early from a 30 month sentence because he was suffering from anything?

Money talks, and nowhere does it speak louder than in the courts of justice.

[Grimnir]

Wow your time at school wasn't completely wasted then? You learnt some of the alphabet. I am impressed, I bet mommy is so proud of you.

Could you provide some evidence for that? Any at all, nope thought not.

Or is it just what your miniscule brain tells you should be so. You need to get a grip on reality me old fruit. Just because you say it is so doesnt make it so.


evidence for what? my opinion that serious offenders and hardline type criminals will have higher reoffending rates because they dont give a toss about other people and society and consequences?
you need to accept other people's opinions, you are supposed to be the loony lefty fruity pie

[Livia]

If you two don't pack it in, I'm going to knock your heads together.

[Zippy]

The only really proven way to stop hardcore criminals from re-offending is to lock them away for longer. Which spares numerous victims and destroyed lives.

We need more prisons and longer sentences. No, its not the perfect solution and costs money but its certainly effective in physically preventing criminals committing more crime.

Like I said, more emphasis needs to be put on locking up the ones who are a physical threat to others. They are a menace to society and ruin lives.