Religion to become extinct

[karezza]

A study using census data from nine countries shows that religion faces extinction.

Goodbye God.:xyxwave:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12811197

[Niamh.]

can't say that that's a bad thing at all. We have to fill out our census on Sunday and I think I'll put agnostic on the religion part

[Crimson Dynamo]

can't say that that's a bad thing at all. We have to fill out our census on Sunday and I think I'll put agnostic on the religion part

Put no religion. What part are you not sure about?

[Beastie]

Until the next Gospel Bible is written......

[Niamh.]

Put no religion. What part are you not sure about?

Well, I have no idea where we came from or if there is a higher power somewhere or not, I think it's unlikely but none of us can say for sure either way, so that makes me agnostic.

[karezza]

When religion dies Christ will return.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Well, I have no idea where we came from or if there is a higher power somewhere or not, I think it's unlikely but none of us can say for sure either way, so that makes me agnostic.

but you could say that about any manner of mythical creatures, fairies, santa etc. You know that supernaturality does not exist and you know that no one has ever seen heard from, spoken to a god so why suspend you belief and say "oh well I dont know on this specific god?"

[Josy]

If there was no religion someone would just come up with another way of controlling the masses.

[arista]

If there was no religion someone would just come up with another way of controlling the masses.


Yes
3 for 1
AsdaWalmart

[Niamh.]

but you could say that about any manner of mythical creatures, fairies, santa etc. You know that supernaturality does not exist and you know that no one has ever seen heard from, spoken to a god so why suspend you belief and say "oh well I dont know on this specific god?"

all those you named are man made though, I know God is too but I mean we are here and our planet and life in general started some where, and none of us know how or why.

[Niamh.]

If there was no religion someone would just come up with another way of controlling the masses.

That is so true!

[Crimson Dynamo]

all those you named are man made though, I know God is too but I mean we are here and our planet and life in general started some where, and none of us know how or why.

We do know how our planet, solar system and universe happened?

[Niamh.]

We do know how our planet, solar system and universe happened?

yeah I know that, but if you keep going further and further, Like the Bang Bang theory for example, that's fair enough but where did the the things that banged come from etc etc

[Crimson Dynamo]

yeah I know that, but if you keep going further and further, Like the Bang Bang theory for example, that's fair enough but where did the the things that banged come from etc etc

Asking that is perhaps the wrong question, first you have to understand the science of what we have but there is no mystery to the universe. It is just our measurements are of no use (ie years, size and so forth).

[Niamh.]

Asking that is perhaps the wrong question, first you have to understand the science of what we have but there is no mystery to the universe. It is just our measurements are of no use (ie years, size and so forth).

All, that space stuff goes right over my head tbf I suppose saying I'm agnostic is just a way of me saying I don't have a clue How, where or why we're here/came from and I know I never will.

[Crimson Dynamo]

All, that space stuff goes right over my head tbf I suppose saying I'm agnostic is just a way of me saying I don't have a clue How, where or why we're here/came from and I know I never will.

That is not agnostioc, that is just being a bit bonkers:dance:

[Niamh.]

That is not agnostioc, that is just being a bit bonkers:dance:

lmao, ok should I put a bit bonkers down on the census form then?:laugh:

[Shaun]

Ah well. We can hope.

[Shasown]

A study using census data from nine countries shows that religion faces extinction.

Goodbye God.:xyxwave:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12811197

Gods been okay to us really over the last few thousand years. A bit of loyalty for the old bloke wouldnt go amiss. I would hate to see the old fellow have to sign on and claim jobseeker allowance.

[Stu]

The Irish cenus form asks for religion, not belief. I believe in something greater to the cosmos too Niamh but I would reccomend just ticking 'No Religion'.

If you tick anything else they'll just use the numbers to justify pumping money we don't have into religous matters because they will be seen as important.

[Niamh.]

The Irish cenus form asks for religion, not belief. I believe in something greater to the cosmos too Niamh but I would reccomend just ticking 'No Religion'.

If you tick anything else they'll just use the numbers to justify pumping money we don't have into religous matters because they will be seen as important.

yeah, I haven't even looked through the form properly yet to see what options are there anyway, but I will probably just do that I think because whatever it is I believe it certainly isn't any form of organized religion.

[Z]

I hope so, I think society functions better without religion.

[Angus]

I hope so, I think society functions better without religion.

Well it didn't in communist Russia.

[Shaun]

yeah, secularism was Communist Russia's problem.

[Niall]

Well it didn't in communist Russia.

Religion wasn't exactly the U.S.S.R's main problem. D;

[Jords]

I very much doubt it will.

[Grimnir]

Star Trek is the future :elephant:

None of this hocus pocus mumbo jumbo

[arista]

I hope so, I think society functions better without religion.


You are Most Wise
Spunky Zee.

[Angus]

Religion wasn't exactly the U.S.S.R's main problem. D;

No, the oppression of communism was. Communism was the secular "religion" forced onto the populace. Communism is every bit as oppressive and restrictive as any religion. As the saying goes: Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[letmein]

No, the oppression of communism was. Communism was the secular "religion" forced onto the populace. Communism is every bit as oppressive and restrictive as any religion. As the saying goes: Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Why in hell are you talking about Communism? :rolleyes:

[Niall]

No, the oppression of communism was. Communism was the secular "religion" forced onto the populace. Communism is every bit as oppressive and restrictive as any religion. As the saying goes: Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

That really wasn't the main problem the USSR faced though. I think the brutal ways the government had of dealing with political dissenters and the censorship of the media along with poor economic planning contributed a lot more to the downfall of the Soviet Union. Religion had a small part to play in the grand scheme of things.

And Communism is in no way a religion - its a political ideology. Also, Communism isn't actually meant to be restrictive, at heart its all about giving everyone an equal world with equal chances but like you said, power does corrupt.

[Angus]

That really wasn't the main problem the USSR faced though. I think the brutal ways the government had of dealing with political dissenters and the censorship of the media along with poor economic planning contributed a lot more to the downfall of the Soviet Union. Religion had a small part to play in the grand scheme of things.

And Communism is in no way a religion - its a political ideology. Also, Communism isn't actually meant to be restrictive, at heart its all about giving everyone an equal world with equal chances but like you said, power does corrupt.

I made the point that Communism is a secular "religion" - true it is a political ideology, but these days most religions are also political ideologies - take Islam for example: Religion and Politics inextricably entwined, making it a hell of a force to be reckoned with as the West is now discovering.

Marxist theory IS just that - theory. In an ideal world there would be no power hungry, corrupt, exploitative people, but the fact is that there are. The reason communism does not work is because Marx left out the human nature factor - that the strong will always exploit and abuse the weak. Russian communism was oppressive and restrictive, it was brutal to dissenters, it sought to crush any opposition or freedom of speech, thought or belief. It became a dictatorship, far worse than that which had existed prior to the Revolution.

Equality as a concept is illusory, people are NOT. and never will be, equal in terms of their inherent talents, skills or contribution to society; Communism seeks to repress difference and diversity, it's intention is to remove competition, inspiration and motivation, in short to crush the human spirit. The price for "equality" was and is way too high.

[letmein]

I still don't see how Communism pertains to this article about religion in any way, shape, or form.

[Angus]

I still don't see how Communism pertains to this article about religion in any way, shape, or form.

Zee's post stating society would be better off without religion.
My post stating that was not found to be the case in Communist Russia (where religion was banned). I labelled communism a secular "religion".
Niall's post stating that Communism is a political ideology, not a religion.
My post stating that political ideology is now a component of many religions, in particular Islam. I go on to amplify the reasons why Communism - the antithesis of religion - does not deliver a better, freer, happier, more productive or EQUAL society.

Keep Up.

[bananarama]

If there was no religion someone would just come up with another way of controlling the masses.


Indeed I am afraid you are right. The majority of the human species are like sheep they want to follow and be led.......As such even if religion were to bocome out of fashion some other belief obsession would replace it........And of course the masses purly their own fault for hanging on to rubbish would still be controlled one way or another.....

Its easy to recognise the sheep instinct in humans.....Drugs is an example.....Addicts do as others do and not what normal intelligent free minded people would do....

[Stu]

That's like me saying people who abstain from drugs are just sheep who are following others who abstain from drugs.

Still it must be so great being you.

[BB_Eye]

Star Trek is the future :elephant:

None of this hocus pocus mumbo jumbo
Doubt it. Communism didn't work. :D

[BB_Eye]

I made the point that Communism is a secular "religion" - true it is a political ideology, but these days most religions are also political ideologies - take Islam for example: Religion and Politics inextricably entwined, making it a hell of a force to be reckoned with as the West is now discovering.

Marxist theory IS just that - theory. In an ideal world there would be no power hungry, corrupt, exploitative people, but the fact is that there are. The reason communism does not work is because Marx left out the human nature factor - that the strong will always exploit and abuse the weak. Russian communism was oppressive and restrictive, it was brutal to dissenters, it sought to crush any opposition or freedom of speech, thought or belief. It became a dictatorship, far worse than that which had existed prior to the Revolution.The amount parallels communism has with religion is scary. Don't forget the personality cults surrounding people like Stalin, Mao and Kim il-Sung (who even today after his death is worshipped like a god in North Korea). Plus the obligatory paranoia and distrust towards artists and intellectuals which governs every neanderthal philistine ideology.

Equality as a concept is illusory, people are NOT. and never will be, equal in terms of their inherent talents, skills or contribution to society; Communism seeks to repress difference and diversity, it's intention is to remove competition, inspiration and motivation, in short to crush the human spirit. The price for "equality" was and is way too high.
I agree. Although I am pretty left of centre and think wealth should be distributed more fairly, the abolition of private property is a pipe dream and giving the state absolute control over the populace is a recipe for disaster. The communist experiment has already been attempted -in more than one country- and the results speak for themselves. Starvation on an unimaginable scale, millions dying in gulags, the destruction of people's history and heritage (another parallel with Christianity), humanity brought to the brink of nuclear war and today a secretive country on the Korean peninsula that literally resembles a real life Nineteen Eighty Four.

[keithafc]

I put Jedi Knight as that is what i am. A Jedi Knight.

I must say though, i don't buy into either the science view on the universe or the bible say on it. I just look at it all and go meh. Whats the point. Just enjoy your life.

[letmein]

Zee's post stating society would be better off without religion.
My post stating that was not found to be the case in Communist Russia (where religion was banned). I labelled communism a secular "religion".
Niall's post stating that Communism is a political ideology, not a religion.
My post stating that political ideology is now a component of many religions, in particular Islam. I go on to amplify the reasons why Communism - the antithesis of religion - does not deliver a better, freer, happier, more productive or EQUAL society.

Keep Up.

It's not the same thing. The Soviets BANNED religion. No one talking about BANNING it. They're merely imagining a society that has no use for it.

Keep Up.

[Mr XcX]

:(

[InOne]

Try telling the muzzies that

[Shasown]

I put Jedi Knight as that is what i am. A Jedi Knight.

I must say though, i don't buy into either the science view on the universe or the bible say on it. I just look at it all and go meh. Whats the point. Just enjoy your life.

Getting halfway through the game "Jedi Academy" on normal difficulty does not a Jedi Make, Padawan.

[Angus]

It's not the same thing. The Soviets BANNED religion. No one talking about BANNING it. They're merely imagining a society that has no use for it.

Keep Up.

The point under discussion is that if there were no religion, some other ideology would take its place and it would not necessarily be for the better. In response to Zee's post I gave Russian Communism as an example of an ideological concept that could not and did not work in practice, and in fact delivered a far worse society than one where people were free to worship what the hell they wanted to.

The Soviets did NOT ban Religion, they never had the power to do that, they merely banned people from overtly worshipping and practising religion within Russia.

Now you need to get out of the slow lane.

[letmein]

The point under discussion is that if there were no religion, some other ideology would take its place and it would not necessarily be for the better. In response to Zee's post I gave Russian Communism as an example of an ideological concept that could not and did not work in practice, and in fact delivered a far worse society than one where people were free to worship what the hell they wanted to.

The Soviets did NOT ban Religion, they never had the power to do that, they merely banned people from overtly worshipping and practising religion within Russia.

Now you need to get out of the slow lane.


That's banning, hon.

Also, just because you don't have religion, DOESN'T mean something else will take its place. That's preposterous. What do you think replaced it for people who aren't practicing it?

[keithafc]

I think something has taken over religion now.

[Niamh.]

I think something has taken over religion now.

:shocked: what is it?

[letmein]

Big Brother?

[Angus]

I think something has taken over religion now.

Yes, it's called Materialism and the worship of "celebrities".

[Niall]

I made the point that Communism is a secular "religion" - true it is a political ideology, but these days most religions are also political ideologies - take Islam for example: Religion and Politics inextricably entwined, making it a hell of a force to be reckoned with as the West is now discovering.

Marxist theory IS just that - theory. In an ideal world there would be no power hungry, corrupt, exploitative people, but the fact is that there are. The reason communism does not work is because Marx left out the human nature factor - that the strong will always exploit and abuse the weak. Russian communism was oppressive and restrictive, it was brutal to dissenters, it sought to crush any opposition or freedom of speech, thought or belief. It became a dictatorship, far worse than that which had existed prior to the Revolution.

Equality as a concept is illusory, people are NOT. and never will be, equal in terms of their inherent talents, skills or contribution to society; Communism seeks to repress difference and diversity, it's intention is to remove competition, inspiration and motivation, in short to crush the human spirit. The price for "equality" was and is way too high.

I understand what you are saying but I don't really think labelling it a secular religion is correct. Hardcore Communists think religion should be totally abolished.

Also, I don't think that politics is always influenced by religion. The increasingly secular attitudes of many world governments today shows that the state can remain totally secular and not use religion as a guideline for the laws they create. Some countries may choose to incorporate it though however like Islamic nations which you mentioned.

And the idea that Communism seeks to crush and oppress isn't what the theory of Communism is about at all. The ideal Communist state would have everyone on a equal levels for jobs, homes, facilities etc. People wouldn't be denied access to things just because they don't have enough money etc nor does it seek to repress diversity and difference either, the Soviet Union effectively legalised Homosexuality in the 1920s in the RSFR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Soviet_Federative_Socialist_Republic). Although Stalin did repress it again later on.

I'm not a Communist but I do understand the real vision of Communism and how it was meant to be.

[MTVN]

And the idea that Communism seeks to crush and oppress isn't what the theory of Communism is about at all. The ideal Communist state would have everyone on a equal levels for jobs, homes, facilities etc. People wouldn't be denied access to things just because they don't have enough money etc nor does it seek to repress diversity and difference either, the Soviet Union effectively legalised Homosexuality in the 1920s in the RSFR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Soviet_Federative_Socialist_Republic). Although Stalin did repress it again later on.

I'm not a Communist but I do understand the real vision of Communism and how it was meant to be.

It might not be what the theory is about but it's an inevitable consequence, or it has been anyway. Trouble is, for Communism to work, you'd need everyone to subscribe to it and at least be compliant in the distribution of their land and wealth, and if they dont the only option is to coercively take it. And then where's the incentive for the money-makers to continue to produce the wealth and the GDP that the country is reliant on. There isnt any, and far too much power is placed in the hands of the state, having control over every single aspect of society and the economy will just lead to ineffeciency, no competition, no incentives etc., look how much of a failure War Communism was; it was an absolute disaster even if they were fighting a Civil War at the time. Only by starting to introduce some more Capitalistic policies did the economy recover

The whole idea of Communism is utopian imo and I'm yet to be convinced it could ever work and I would never want it to, even just in theory it's an infringement on freedom if you ask me, economically anyway.

[Shasown]

I understand what you are saying but I don't really think labelling it a secular religion is correct. Hardcore Communists think religion should be totally abolished.

Also, I don't think that politics is always influenced by religion. The increasingly secular attitudes of many world governments today shows that the state can remain totally secular and not use religion as a guideline for the laws they create. Some countries may choose to incorporate it though however like Islamic nations which you mentioned.

And the idea that Communism seeks to crush and oppress isn't what the theory of Communism is about at all. The ideal Communist state would have everyone on a equal levels for jobs, homes, facilities etc. People wouldn't be denied access to things just because they don't have enough money etc nor does it seek to repress diversity and difference either, the Soviet Union effectively legalised Homosexuality in the 1920s in the RSFR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Soviet_Federative_Socialist_Republic). Although Stalin did repress it again later on.

I'm not a Communist but I do understand the real vision of Communism and how it was meant to be.

While it is true the ideal communsit state wouldnt oppress, Angus wasnt talking about the ideal communist state. She was using Soviet Russia as an exemplar of the fact that certain leaders in history have whilst repudiating religion replaced it in peoples psyche with the state.

Lenin was an extremely shrewd manipulator, and adapted Marxist doctrine to suit what he believed was a stronger concept - marxist leninism if you like. Whilst he was extremely cynical about religion he understood it filled a need in man in general and so tinkered with formal and functional parallels between the state and religion.

In its organisation, its techniques for recruitment, its means of eliciting loyalty from its adherents Lenins party structure owes more to Bakunin than Marx. As you are no doubt are aware Bakunin believed revolution was not only a socio-political phenomenon but was ultimately theological and religious in character.

Stalin when he came to power having been partially trained as a priest and after studying under a spiritual teacher also recognised the strength of the religious impulse within people. He also knew how to activate and manipulate it.

Look at the way Stalin elevated Lenin after death to almost godhood, lying in state, national mourning, national holiday, embalming the body and the pyramid like tomb. Very incongruous with a rationalist secular system which declared itself atheistic and hostile to all forms of religion and the cult of 'personality'.

Take for example this text with response style chorus, its wasnt a parody of religious prayer it was designed to be a religious rite in itself:

In departing from us Comrade Lenin enjoined on us to hold high and keep pure the great calling of Member of the Party
Response - We Vow to thee. Comrade Lenin that we will honourably fulfill thy commandment.

In departing from us Comrade Lenin enjoined us to guard the unity of the Party
Response - We vow to thee Comarade lenin that we will honourably fulfill this thy commandment.

In departing from us Comrade Lenin enjoined to us to guard and strengthen the dictatorship of the Proletariat..

ETC ETC.

Admission into the Communist Party in the late 20' and the 30's was also ritualistic, and very religious in nature. The rite of ceremony, as well as the iconic red flag handed over.

A better example would have been of Germany during the rise of National Socialism. The concept behind the party appealed to the religious impulse of the German people, the rituals, parades stirring music speeches, mass hysteria etc. A lot of the rituals based and timed around pre christian festivals and rites.

It was the religious fervour of a people who had lost faith in God, following the horrors of the First World War and had been steered to the magical properties of the Germanic culture etc. If you get the chance read the works of Hermann Rauschning (one of Hitler's earlier confidantes and deputies) on Hitlers cynical manipulation.

Yep thats right I claim todays first Godwin as well ;)

Incidentally most countries use laws based on common law which in medieval times was laid down by the local religious bodies, in the UK, christian(Catholic then later Protestant churches having great input). Christan principles based on earlier Judaic and even earlier prnciples formed from religions. (eg Zoroastrianism)

Other countries simply adapt from their colonial rulers original laws. So you dont really have a truly secular set of laws anywhere in Europe, the Americas, Africa, even Asian countries used either Christian or Buddhist principals to set initial legislation.

[bananarama]

That's like me saying people who abstain from drugs are just sheep who are following others who abstain from drugs.


Still it must be so great being you.

Addicts abstain from drugs when they realize how bloody stupid they are.
People who never take them are not people that abstain. Nothing to abstain from. Thefore not sheep. Mmmmm. I wonder why your thinking is so muddled

[Niall]

It might not be what the theory is about but it's an inevitable consequence, or it has been anyway. Trouble is, for Communism to work, you'd need everyone to subscribe to it and at least be compliant in the distribution of their land and wealth, and if they dont the only option is to coercively take it. And then where's the incentive for the money-makers to continue to produce the wealth and the GDP that the country is reliant on. There isnt any, and far too much power is placed in the hands of the state, having control over every single aspect of society and the economy will just lead to ineffeciency, no competition, no incentives etc., look how much of a failure War Communism was; it was an absolute disaster even if they were fighting a Civil War at the time. Only by starting to introduce some more Capitalistic policies did the economy recover

The whole idea of Communism is utopian imo and I'm yet to be convinced it could ever work and I would never want it to, even just in theory it's an infringement on freedom if you ask me, economically anyway.

Yeah I know what you mean. I was just talking about the Communist ideal lol.

And I'm not really convinced a true Utopia is ever possible, humans are just too easily corrupted.

While it is true the ideal communsit state wouldnt oppress, Angus wasnt talking about the ideal communist state. She was using Soviet Russia as an exemplar of the fact that certain leaders in history have whilst repudiating religion replaced it in peoples psyche with the state.

Lenin was an extremely shrewd manipulator, and adapted Marxist doctrine to suit what he believed was a stronger concept - marxist leninism if you like. Whilst he was extremely cynical about religion he understood it filled a need in man in general and so tinkered with formal and functional parallels between the state and religion.

In its organisation, its techniques for recruitment, its means of eliciting loyalty from its adherents Lenins party structure owes more to Bakunin than Marx. As you are no doubt are aware Bakunin believed revolution was not only a socio-political phenomenon but was ultimately theological and religious in character.

Stalin when he came to power having been partially trained as a priest and after studying under a spiritual teacher also recognised the strength of the religious impulse within people. He also knew how to activate and manipulate it.

Look at the way Stalin elevated Lenin after death to almost godhood, lying in state, national mourning, national holiday, embalming the body and the pyramid like tomb. Very incongruous with a rationalist secular system which declared itself atheistic and hostile to all forms of religion and the cult of 'personality'.

Take for example this text with response style chorus, its wasnt a parody of religious prayer it was designed to be a religious rite in itself:

In departing from us Comrade Lenin enjoined on us to hold high and keep pure the great calling of Member of the Party
Response - We Vow to thee. Comrade Lenin that we will honourably fulfill thy commandment.

In departing from us Comrade Lenin enjoined us to guard the unity of the Party
Response - We vow to thee Comarade lenin that we will honourably fulfill this thy commandment.

In departing from us Comrade Lenin enjoined to us to guard and strengthen the dictatorship of the Proletariat..

ETC ETC.

Admission into the Communist Party in the late 20' and the 30's was also ritualistic, and very religious in nature. The rite of ceremony, as well as the iconic red flag handed over.

A better example would have been of Germany during the rise of National Socialism. The concept behind the party appealed to the religious impulse of the German people, the rituals, parades stirring music speeches, mass hysteria etc.

It was the religious fervour of a people who had lost faith in God, following the horrors of the First World War and had been steered to the magical properties of the Germanic culture etc. If you get the chance read the works of Hermann Rauschning (one of Hitler's earlier confidantes and deputies) on Hitlers cynical manipulation.

Yep thats right I claim todays first Godwin as well ;)

Incidentally most countries use laws based on common law which in medieval times was laid down by the local religious bodies, in the UK, christian(Catholic then later Protestant churches having great input). Other countries simply adapt from their colonial rulers original laws. So you dont really have a truly secular set of laws anywhere in Europe, the Americas, Africa, even Asian countries used either Christian or Buddhist principals to set initial legislation.

Wow long post rofl. :laugh:

But yeah I agree with most of that. I think that elevating Lenin to a God-like status was just another method the Communist party in the USSR used to exert control over its people. Most of the communist states had that whole cult of personality thing going on. I never knew about how the Communist party was ritualistic in admissions though. Thats quite interesting to hear about.

I'll try to have a read of that book as well, sounds interesting. :)

And I know lots of the laws in different regions of the world stemmed from religion but anyone could come up with a set of laws and say they were from God couldn't they? :thumbs2:

[Stu]

Addicts abstain from drugs when they realize how bloody stupid they are.
People who never take them are not people that abstain. Nothing to abstain from. Thefore not sheep. Mmmmm. I wonder why your thinking is so muddled
Yes, they do abstain. You know full well what I meant and are in no position presently to go about changing the dictionary definition for words when it suits you. My use of the word is both in context and correct.

Not all drug users are addicts. This is a fact and a fact is another thing you are in no position to challenge. I know you feel differently because you feel you are inherently a better person than them by sheer virtue of the fact that you don't take certain substances into your body but trust me, much like the effects of many of these psychotropic substances, it's all in your head.

Why are my so muddled? Because your thick. Thick people confuse me.

[Shasown]

I'll try to have a read of that book as well, sounds interesting. :)

And I know lots of the laws in different regions of the world stemmed from religion but anyone could come up with a set of laws and say they were from God couldn't they? :thumbs2:

HR wrote two books, both contain anecdotes and quotes from AH, ones called "Hitler Speaks" cant remember the other one's name. Interesting reading.

The point I was making about laws, is not the fact they are supposed to come from God(s) but the fact laws of secular states evolved from earlier laws formed by religions, so you dont have original secular laws. Its just a situation that evolution and history has left is with.

Saying that though it could now be said that religion is a throwback to the ignorant period of mankind and as we evolve all forms of religion will become outdated and superceded by something else.

EDIT, found his first books name its "The Revolution of Nihilism" good old wiki :wink:

[Angus]

I understand what you are saying but I don't really think labelling it a secular religion is correct. Hardcore Communists think religion should be totally abolished.

Also, I don't think that politics is always influenced by religion. The increasingly secular attitudes of many world governments today shows that the state can remain totally secular and not use religion as a guideline for the laws they create. Some countries may choose to incorporate it though however like Islamic nations which you mentioned.

And the idea that Communism seeks to crush and oppress isn't what the theory of Communism is about at all. The ideal Communist state would have everyone on a equal levels for jobs, homes, facilities etc. People wouldn't be denied access to things just because they don't have enough money etc nor does it seek to repress diversity and difference either, the Soviet Union effectively legalised Homosexuality in the 1920s in the RSFR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Soviet_Federative_Socialist_Republic). Although Stalin did repress it again later on.

I'm not a Communist but I do understand the real vision of Communism and how it was meant to be.

Nowhere did I say that Politics is always influenced by Religion - what I said was that when Political ideology and Religion combine, it is a force to be reckoned with, as with Islam. I also labelled Communism as a secular "religion" to make the point that it is just another belief system albeit without a theistic dimension. As I said before hardcore communists have no chance in hell of ever abolishing religion - the most they could ever do is abolish the overt worship and practice of religion. Short of totally brainwashing people into a zombie like state, no-one has the power to abolish individual thoughts and beliefs.

Communism as a theoretical concept is seductive and beguiling, and I would love to think it could ever work in practice, but unfortunately it has been proven NOT to work because it doesn't factor in the human element of greed, corruption, and selfishness. The Communist leaders in the Soviet grew ever more corrupt, ensuring they had luxurious homes and champagne lifestyles, whilst the bulk of the population were in a permanent state of bare existence, with no prospect of being able to aspire to a better lifestyle because it was not allowed.

The only way that communism could ever work is if every single human being bought into it to the concept to the same degree - but there will always be those that want to exploit, bully, and cheat others and grab more for themselves.

[Niall]

Nowhere did I say that Politics is always influenced by Religion - what I said was that when Political ideology and Religion combine, it is a force to be reckoned with, as with Islam. I also labelled Communism as a secular "religion" to make the point that it is just another belief system albeit without a theistic dimension. As I said before hardcore communists have no chance in hell of ever abolishing religion - the most they could ever do is abolish the overt worship and practice of religion. Short of totally brainwashing people into a zombie like state, no-one has the power to abolish individual thoughts and beliefs.

Communism as a theoretical concept is seductive and beguiling, and I would love to think it could ever work in practice, but unfortunately it has been proven NOT to work because it doesn't factor in the human element of greed, corruption, and selfishness. The Communist leaders in the Soviet grew ever more corrupt, ensuring they had luxurious homes and champagne lifestyles, whilst the bulk of the population were in a permanent state of bare existence, with no prospect of being able to aspire to a better lifestyle because it was not allowed.

The only way that communism could ever work is if every single human being bought into it to the concept to the same degree - but there will always be those that want to exploit, bully, and cheat others and grab more for themselves.

*Agrees* :)