Is all Rape rape or is some worse than others?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Its one word to cover a lot of bases?

[GiRTh]

Rape is rape. Whether its a guy stalking women, a husband or boyfriend or if its a date rape. The degree of violence involved should determine the severity of the sentence but no rape is better or worse than another.

[Vicky.]

I dont think a 16 year old lad sleeping with his 15 year old girlfriend should be classed as rape. If she consented of course

[Niamh.]

I dont think a 16 year old lad sleeping with his 15 year old girlfriend should be classed as rape. If she consented of course

Yeah, that's statutory rape though, it is classed as different, those cases definitely need to be taken case by case.

But rape is like murder imo they are what they are but obviously some can be more violent than others as Girth already said

[Chuck]

I dont think a 16 year old lad sleeping with his 15 year old girlfriend should be classed as rape. If she consented of course

:worship:

[Zippy]

No every case is completely different. To class them all in the same category is just stupid imho.

A guy jumping from behind a bush and raping an old woman is hardly the same as a man who forces himself on his wife in bed after maybe getting mixed signals as to whether she wants sex or not.

If your gonna lump them all together then expect even lower rates of convictions. And God knows theyre pathetic enough as it is.

[Marsh.]

No every case is completely different. To class them all in the same category is just stupid imho.

A guy jumping from behind a bush and raping an old woman is hardly the same as a man who forces himself on his wife in bed after maybe getting mixed signals as to whether she wants sex or not.

If your gonna lump them all together then expect even lower rates of convictions. And God knows theyre pathetic enough as it is.

That's the biggest excuse ever when it comes to rapists. "I thought she wanted it".

Even if it's his wife, if she's pushing him away and he is literally forcing her into it, then it's rape.

[Zippy]

That's the biggest excuse ever when it comes to rapists. "I thought she wanted it".

Even if it's his wife, if she's pushing him away and he is literally forcing her into it, then it's rape.

yeah, I know what rape is thanks

but it's possible that in some cases there is a genuine misreading of signals. In some relationships a woman may enjoy the game of playing hard to get by saying no, no I don't want to...almost as a game of foreplay knowing that he will persist. But then one day she may really mean it when she says no. So how is the man then supposed to know the difference?

No does not always mean no. Some women like to tease and play hard to get as part of the mating ritual.

[BB_Eye]

I see no point in making the definition of rape so artificially complex. By setting up a hierarchy whereby the victims are variously responsible for the rape, it shifts the blame away from the criminal. This way, we actually adopt the mentality of the rapist. Clarke lost the argument by taking their side.

[Marsh.]

yeah, I know what rape is thanks

but it's possible that in some cases there is a genuine misreading of signals. In some relationships a woman may enjoy the game of playing hard to get by saying no, no I don't want to...almost as a game of foreplay knowing that he will persist. But then one day she may really mean it when she says no. So how is the man then supposed to know the difference?

No does not always mean no. Some women like to tease and play hard to get as part of the mating ritual.

Yes, but if she's still saying "no" in a serious way and literally fighting him off I think he'd know the difference to a bit of giggling resistance. Unless he's a moron, which in most cases is the way with these crimes.

[joeysteele]

All rape is rape, but there are clearly elements that constitute a more serious act than just rape, the circumstances, the violence involved and also whether planned or not by the perpetrator.

[Zippy]

Yes, but if she's still saying "no" in a serious way and literally fighting him off I think he'd know the difference to a bit of giggling resistance. Unless he's a moron, which in most cases is the way with these crimes.

well your post highlights the difficulty in determining how strongly a woman is resisting. In a serious way? Fighting him off? Giggling? who's is to determine to what extent and how strongly she was doing this? A woman may just be angry with her husband or BF at that point and not want to give him sex right then. Afterwards she may cry rape to get back at him for God knows what else? maybe he has cheated on her and she wants revenge? See, there are a minefield of possibilities...motives etc

whereas a random attack by a stranger is a more clearcut case.

Those quick to lump them all together should also consider which rapists are more of a threat to society and need locking up for societys protection. A man who goes too far with his GF or wife one night is not necessarily a threat to society. Whereas a man who attacks and rapes strangers clearly is and needs locking up to protect other women. This is surely a huge factor in determining prison sentences.

Besides, I think its stupid to just lump all cases under one umbrella. Every case is unique. The reason there are so few convictions is largely because there isnt enough scope for sentencing according to degrees of severity in rape cases. Its all or nothing. So most rapists walk free.

[lostalex]

kidnapping a girl and keeping her as a sex slave for 5 years in your basement is much worse than putting it in your wife while she's sleeping.

Both are techincally rape(sex without consent), but they are VERY different crimes, i'd say.

[lostalex]

yeah, I know what rape is thanks

but it's possible that in some cases there is a genuine misreading of signals. In some relationships a woman may enjoy the game of playing hard to get by saying no, no I don't want to...almost as a game of foreplay knowing that he will persist. But then one day she may really mean it when she says no. So how is the man then supposed to know the difference?

No does not always mean no. Some women like to tease and play hard to get as part of the mating ritual.

that's complete BS. If a girl is into "roleplaying" a rape fantasy then that should be discussed beforehand. The idea that women sometimes mean yes when they say no is a myth created by rapists.

[Livia]

Anyone remember the Mike Tyson rape case? She went back to his hotel room at daft o’clock in the morning and claimed he had raped her. I reckon if you go back to a man’s hotel room at three in the morning, you’re not going there for a game of Scrabble. She made loads of money out of it and gained celebrity status and he went to prison. That’s just screwed up. Contrast that with someone who’s attacked and raped by a stranger. Not all rape cases are the same.

[Boothy]

No.

A pissed up girl going back to a hotel room and sleeping with a man, waking up to regret so cries rape, claiming she knew nothing of it is different to a man stalking a woman and using physical violence to have sex with her.

[Smithy]

No.

A pissed up girl going back to a hotel room and sleeping with a man, waking up to regret so cries rape, claiming she knew nothing of it is different to a man stalking a woman and using physical violence to have sex with her.

This

[onlinebigbrother12344]

rapes rape to me!

[Zippy]

that's complete BS. If a girl is into "roleplaying" a rape fantasy then that should be discussed beforehand. The idea that women sometimes mean yes when they say no is a myth created by rapists.

Coming from the queen of BS?

what a simplistic little world you live in where everything is discussed and preplanned beforehand and everything everybody says is literal and exactly what it states. A world where women never play mindgames, it seems.

And who let you back anyways?

[Pyramid*]

Whilst any rape is hellish: there is something particulary awful about young children being raped - as opposed to an adult. so in that sense: yes, I would view some rape as being worse than others.

That is not to say rape to an 'adult' or 'older' person is not as traumatic - not at all - it's only my own personal opinion - I'm sure there will be some who feel that's not the case though.

[Pyramid*]

yeah, I know what rape is thanks

but it's possible that in some cases there is a genuine misreading of signals. In some relationships a woman may enjoy the game of playing hard to get by saying no, no I don't want to...almost as a game of foreplay knowing that he will persist. But then one day she may really mean it when she says no. So how is the man then supposed to know the difference?

No does not always mean no. Some women like to tease and play hard to get as part of the mating ritual.

What an awful frame of mind to have. Absolutely terrible way to perceive woman - some or otherwise.

[Zippy]

What an awful frame of mind to have. Absolutely terrible way to perceive woman - some or otherwise.

oh diddums have I offended you?

tough titty

Some women are wicked. Some men are wicked. Who knew?

[Livia]

............No does not always mean no. Some women like to tease and play hard to get as part of the mating ritual.

And hopefully some women would hand you back your b*ll*cks in a bag as part of that same "mating ritual".

I remember a judge saying that when a woman says no, it doesn't always mean no. He was ridiculed. And rightly too.

[joeysteele]

I agree with Livia totally. ( for some reason the quote thing didn't work for me on this post).

[Jords]

I dont think a 16 year old lad sleeping with his 15 year old girlfriend should be classed as rape. If she consented of course

Its not rape at all, just under age sex.

[Shasown]

Its not rape at all, just under age sex.

Yeah if she is 15 and emotionally mature, thats true, but what happens if she is 14 or 12 or even 10? Can a 10 year old consent to sex? They are given sex education at an early age nowadays, do they understand the full potential consequences?

A line has to be drawn legally to give protection to all children and those who are emotionally immature and the current line is 16.

[Jords]

What if the boy is 10 too? And they do it just because they its what all people do?

Obvs if he forces himself on her its rape, but that applies to any age.

[Niamh.]

Yeah if she is 15 and emotionally mature, thats true, but what happens if she is 14 or 12 or even 10? Can a 10 year old consent to sex? They are given sex education at an early age nowadays, do they understand the full potential consequences?

A line has to be drawn legally to give protection to all children and those who are emotionally immature and the current line is 16.

I agree but I do think in cases of statutory rape they need to be taken case by case and the ages of both parties taken into consideration

[Shasown]

What if the boy is 10 too? And they do it just because they its what all people do?

Obvs if he forces himself on her its rape, but that applies to any age.

Generally if they are both underage and force isnt used a prosecution isnt in the public interest so wont be pursued.

Its handed over to the social services, who in turn will send the parents on parenting courses and attempt to re educate the children involved.

[Shasown]

I agree but I do think in cases of statutory rape they need to be taken case by case and the ages of both parties taken into consideration

In the UK they are taken on an individual case basis, not all are prosecuted. Its not just the age taken into account but the emotional and intellectual maturity of both parties

[lostalex]

Coming from the queen of BS?

what a simplistic little world you live in where everything is discussed and preplanned beforehand and everything everybody says is literal and exactly what it states. A world where women never play mindgames, it seems.

And who let you back anyways?

oic, so women playing mindgames = permission to rape? what are you talking about?

If a women that says no but means yes has sex with a guy that doesn't stop, then why would she claim rape afterwards?? You make no sense.

Obviously if a woman reports the rape after it happens, after she said no, then she meant NO.

If she didn't mean NO then she wouldn't report it.

Men don't seam to understand the power difference betwen men and women, and that a lot of times women mean no, but if the guy doesn't stop right away, she \get's scared, and she fears if she tries to resist he could hurt her or kill her or who knows what.

Men and Women are not equal in stregth and power in this patriarchal society. just because a woman doesn't scream and resist totally doesn't mean it's not rape.

It's like saying if you are being robbed, and you hand over yur wallet to the robber, then you are CONSENTING to the robbery.

[patsylimerick]

Rape is about control, violence and danger. It's got very little - possibly nothing -to do with sexual attraction. I would take 'statutory rape' out of the equation because it IS about sexual attraction. As Niamh said, very much a case by case situation. We have to set the age of consent somewhere and I think 16 is about right. The question about "well what if he's 10 too?" :conf: What a ridiculous question. Seriously now. Ten year olds having sex would necessitate some fairly urgent and robust psychological intervention. In relation to the wife saying no and the husband continuing anyway. That's ABSOLUTELY rape. It's very sad that people feel that a woman going to a man's hotel room is a license to commit violence. Very sad indeed. In many cases the woman does want sex. Fair dues. But if she doesn't and she says NO it's still rape. Oh, and Zippy, any husband who menacingly forces himself on the person he's supposed to love while no-one else is watching is a very real danger to society by any reckoning.

[Mystic Mock]

Rape is Rape,I dont see how some are worse than others personally as all of the rapists are just as sick as each other.

[Niamh.]

Rape is Rape,I dont see how some are worse than others personally as all of the rapists are just as sick as each other.

obviously rape is rape but of course some are worse than others just like some murders are worse than others, some are more violent or more prolonged which is worse for the victim then a less violent or more prolonged one.

[Shasown]

Rape is Rape,I dont see how some are worse than others personally as all of the rapists are just as sick as each other.

Really?

Which would you prefer, to be bought a few drinks at a club, drugged and taken up the harris while unconscious, or to be held down beaten sensless then bum *******ed come round in pain and maybe gangraped again while still in agony?

[Patrick]

Some is worse than others, obviously.

I mean being dragged into a bush after a night out and ******ed and punched a couple of times is nothing compared to being dragged into a van, ******ed and having a knife shoved up you and then left in a forest.


And that's not me trying to be funny, that did happen to someone a few years ago.

I can't remember if it was on the news or in a Soap but it happened so I'm just saying.

[Pyramid*]

Some is worse than others, obviously.

I mean being dragged into a bush after a night out and ******ed and punched a couple of times is nothing compared to being dragged into a van, ******ed and having a knife shoved up you and then left in a forest.


And that's not me trying to be funny, that did happen to someone a few years ago.

I can't remember if it was on the news or in a Soap but it happened so I'm just saying.

Patrick...if you are remembering it from a Soap - soaps are not real - and to equate the 'story' as you have then thinking it might have come from a Soap, beggars belief and makes a mockery of those who are treating this thread seriously.

The first line in your post however, I agree with - the manner of the rape, how it happened, the actions before / after / how it took place / the behaviour of the rapist etc - are all different.

[Pyramid*]

Rape is Rape,I dont see how some are worse than others personally as all of the rapists are just as sick as each other.


I'm flabbergasted.

Scenario 1: 2 adults. Both sexually active. They are in early throes of dating - 2nd time she has met up with him. she invites him over to her place for dinner - they have a wee snog, get into light petting session but he wants more. She says no, and she makes it clear she means No, she realises this guy isn't who she thought he was, wasn't Mr Nice Guy. He refuses to stop, he forces himself on her, then leaves. They never see each other again.

Scenario 2: Sexually active 20 year old man. Babyitting for friends 12 year old daughter who is neither sexually active or even past puberty. She's asleep in bed, he goes up to check on her - and before you know it, he's forced himself on her, told her he will kill her mummy and daddy and her pet puppy that she adores,if she tells them. This guy to be arund the family as he and the father are best mates. The child has to be in this mans company often - is terrified but wont say antying through fear of mummy, daddy and her puppy being killed.

You seriously telling me there that in both of these situations that 'rape is rape'. Who do you think is likely to be more psychologically damaged through this....which rapist do you think is the 'sicker' one.?

[joeysteele]

Rape is Rape,I dont see how some are worse than others personally as all of the rapists are just as sick as each other.

I go with you most of the way, rape is rape and there may be less of it if the law said that. Those who commit with whatever varying degrees of force still remove at a stroke the dignity, rights and free will of the person they rape.
The offence is rape and the penalties should be massive for it.

I would remove this 'it wasn't a violent rape argument from the courts', if violence that left injury etc was evident then I would add loads more charges.Assault,battery etc and get the creeps sentenced to a great deal longer on seperate charges all to run after conviction after the original rape charge sentencing.I would though still have a strong,longer minimum sentence (always custodial) for the rape conviction itself,even before the other charges are dealt with.

Obviously if the rape resulted in loss of life then the charge is murder and that should carry a whole life term.

I would only accept in rape any credit for if it was impulsive or pre-meditated to rape someone but its still rape and once someone has done it they 'may' be more likely to do so again.
Everyone has the right to say who they have sex with,once that right is removed by another the charge shouldn't be played with,that constitutes rape.

Also because it's such a serious charge,I would also really come down really heavy on people who make false accusations of rape,they do great harm to the genuine cases and should be dealt with equally with extreme penalties for doing so.

[InOne]

I think it's bad, if a guy meets a girl at a club and she looks of age and ends up being 15 or something, and say she turns nasty and he get's charged that he is left with that label forever. Nobody seems to feel for a guy in that situation, they assume a poor little girl that was taken by a monster or something

[Niamh.]

I think it's bad, if a guy meets a girl at a club and she looks of age and ends up being 15 or something, and say she turns nasty and he get's charged that he is left with that label forever. Nobody seems to feel for a guy in that situation, they assume a poor little girl that was taken by a monster or something

I think you're wrong there, I do think people sympathise with guys who fall into that category.

[InOne]

I think you're wrong there, I do think people sympathise with guys who fall into that category.

Not really, I've hardly heard of it. A woman can easily turn on a waterworks and make up a whole scenario.

[Pyramid*]

I think it's bad, if a guy meets a girl at a club and she looks of age and ends up being 15 or something, and say she turns nasty and he get's charged that he is left with that label forever. Nobody seems to feel for a guy in that situation, they assume a poor little girl that was taken by a monster or something

I think you're wrong there, I do think people sympathise with guys who fall into that category.

I have to agree with Niamh on this one. Given that the female has deliberately gone to a place that has an age retriction beyond her years - she's gone out to deceive in the first instance - then agrees to sleep with the guy - gets caught (as has happened in real life), then she shouts rape.... therefore I totally accept that in most cases, sympathy would lie with the male in such circumstances. Anyone who didn't, would have to have a heart of stone.

[InOne]

I have to agree with Niamh on this one. Given that the female has deliberately gone to a place that has an age retriction beyond her years - she's gone out to deceive in the first instance - then agrees to sleep with the guy - gets caught (as has happened in real life), then she shouts rape.... therefore I totally accept that in most cases, sympathy would lie with the male in such circumstances. Anyone who didn't, would have to have a heart of stone.

I just think women are a lot better at emotionally manipulating than men.

[joeysteele]

I think it's bad, if a guy meets a girl at a club and she looks of age and ends up being 15 or something, and say she turns nasty and he get's charged that he is left with that label forever. Nobody seems to feel for a guy in that situation, they assume a poor little girl that was taken by a monster or something

That's a good argument InOne,really a 15 year old girl shouldn't be at a club anyway, I think a lot of things should come up in that scenario before charge.

Deeper investigation as was it really a rape or something that went wrong,as you say if he is told by her she is older,then he is not at fault for having sex with her,more interviews and better investigative procedures hopefully could bring more light on such a charge.

Why was she in a club at all, why did she go anywhere with him, did her parents know she was at a club,was she in contact with her parents or family,she must have said she was older to be in the club,so why the deceit.
That sort of reasoning could and should cast doubts on whether this is a legitimate rape case or not.

Maybe,if a much stronger penalty was in place for falsely accusing someone of rape,people may be less likely to cry rape when it wasn't so.

I agree, that's an awful situation for the hypothetical guy you mention to be in and scarred for life and equally that is why rape investigations, charges etc need to be even more investgative than they are now.
I also don't agree with a guys name plastered al over the media before his trial or conviction either, while the accuser remains anonymous,often even after the not guilty verdict is made.
Both should not be named until after the trial.If the guy was guilty he is named, if he's found not guilty they both are.To show he was falsely accused and she was as low as you can go.

[Niamh.]

I just think women are a lot better at emotionally manipulating than men.

You make us out to be hard, calculating bitches though. I mean, I know it happens Joe but really, I don't think it happens as often as you're making out. Most girls/women are just normal and wouldn't dream of accusing someone of rape for no good reason.

[Pyramid*]

That's a good argument InOne,really a 15 year old girl shouldn't be at a club anyway, I think a lot of things should come up in that scenario before charge.

Deeper investigation as was it really a rape or something that went wrong,as you say if he is told by her she is older,then he is not at fault for having sex with her,more interviews and better investigative procedures hopefully could bring more light on such a charge.

Why was she in a club at all, why did she go anywhere with him, did her parents know she was at a club,was she in contact with her parents or family,she must have said she was older to be in the club,so why the deceit.
That sort of reasoning could and should cast doubts on whether this is a legitimate rape case or not.

Maybe,if a much stronger penalty was in place for falsely accusing someone of rape,people may be less likely to cry rape when it wasn't so.

I agree, that's an awful situation for the hypothetical guy you mention to be in and scarred for life and equally that is what rape investigations, charges etc need to be even more investgative than they are now.
I also don't agree with a guys name plastered al over the media before his trail or conviction either, while the accuser remains anonymous,often even after the not guilty verdict is made.
Both should not be named until after the trial.If the guy was guilty he is named, if he's found not guilty they both are.

BIB. 100% agree.

I had a friend (male) who was charged with rape. It didn't happen - he was engaged, with wedding date planned. A female neighbour - they had been friends since kids - she had a complete obsession with the guy. Long story short - he got duped into going round to her house on the pretext that there was something wrong with the cooker (her parents were on holiday) - he goes rund to help - she then going into hysterical mode saying she loved him, started grabbing him, clinging onto him sobbing - after a struggle, he gets free and bails out 2 hours later... the police arrest him (yes...arrest him) for rape.

It took months for it all for the truth to come out - she eventually 'cracked', confessed all and all charges were dropped.

In the meantime: this guy had his name plastered all over the local news, lost his job. In the meantime: her name was never printed (though everyone close, knew) He was one of these guys that you KNEW was telling he truth - his fiance, family and friends stuck by him and it all ended the right way - thanks to the police.

Took years for the 'gossip' to die down.

Worst part was: he was one of the kindest, quietest most caring guys around: and it took him years to get back to his old self again.

All through a jealous, mentally unstable 19 year old and her fantasy world.

[joeysteele]

You make us out to be hard, calculating bitches though. I mean, I know it happens Joe but really, I don't think it happens as often as you're making out. Most girls/women are just normal and wouldn't dream of accusing someone of rape for no good reason.

I always agree with you Niamh, as you say you know it happens,I think most who do accuse falsely for whatever reason,do eventually before charge or trial say they were wrong.

Sometimes though the damage is done then, once the Police start investigating a rape charge,they really usually go at it,the guy has to explain what is going on and he could lose his job and find hostility from others too until the accuser admits they were wrong.

I think very few do falsely accuse someone of rape but sadly one is even too many and I would throw every book imagineable at them for doing so.

[Pyramid*]

I just think women are a lot better at emotionally manipulating than men.

for every manipulating woman InOne, believe me, there's equally a manipulating man to balance the figures out.

Take it from one femae speaking from experience of meeting enough of them.

[Niamh.]

I always agree with you Niamh, as you say you know it happens,I think most who do accuse falsely for whatever reason,do eventually before charge or trial say they were wrong.

Sometimes though the damage is done then, once the Police start investigating a rape charge,they really usually go at it,the guy has to explain what is going on and he could lose his job and find hostility from others too until the accuser admits they were wrong.

I think very few do falsely accuse someone of rape but sadly one is even too many and I would throw every book imagineable at them for doing so.

Oh yeah absolutely, It's an awful thing to do to anyone and their life can be destroyed because of it but on the flip side I would imagine that there are a hell of lot more cases where a girl is actually raped but loses the case because it boils down to her word against his and can't prove it. And many more cases again where it's not even reported to the police because the girl is too afraid or embarrassed by it.

[Niamh.]

for every manipulating woman InOne, believe me, there's equally a manipulating man to balance the figures out.

Take it from one femae speaking from experience of meeting enough of them.

absolutely, people are individuals, there's good and evil on both sides.

[Pyramid*]

absolutely, people are individuals, there's good and evil on both sides.

Yes, totally. I fail to get this 'all men are bad' / 'all women are bad' thought process and anyone who has this idea, isn't in a position to make any objective comment on either side.

[lostalex]

Yes, totally. I fail to get this 'all men are bad' / 'all women are bad' thought process and anyone who has this idea, isn't in a position to make any objective comment on either side.


I havn't heard anyone say al women/men are bad. so where are you getting this from? What people have saidis that there is a power IMBALANCE.

We live in a patriarchal society, where str8 white men are a tiny minority, but they have all the power. They hold the MAJORITY of positions of power. This is why the majority of women who are raped do not report their rapes, and also why a majority of reported rapes result in the rapist getting off/exonerated despite their guilt.

This is why in court, the final verdict is often "not guilty" as oppossed to "innocent". Just cause someone is found "not guilty" in court, does not mean they are innocent.

[Pyramid*]

I havn't heard anyone say al women/men are bad. so where are you getting this from? What people have saidis that there is a power IMBALANCE.

We live in a patriarchal society, where str8 white men are a tiny minority, but they have all the power. They hold the MAJORITY of positions of power. This is why the majority of women who are raped do not report their rapes, and also why a majority of reported rapes result in the rapist getting off/exonerated despite their guilt.

This is why in court, the final verdict is often "not guilty" as oppossed to "innocent". Just cause someone is found "not guilty" in court, does not mean they are innocent.


I'm not getting it from anywhere,because I didn't say that -I put the term in apostrophes (') and not in inverted commas (") - the latter would indicate it was a direct word for word quote - which is clearly was not. If you read the posts carefully, a few posts ago and the subsequent posts thereafter - it will make sense. Neither did I state that anyone said there was a power imbalance. I merely gave my own thoughts. I did not state anything as hard fact.

Yes, totally. I fail to get this 'all men are bad' / 'all women are bad' thought process and anyone who has this idea, isn't in a position to make any objective comment on either side.

As for your comment that we live in a society whereby straight white men are a tiny minority. You will find you are incorrect, in society at large, you will find that the hetrosexual man is in the majority.

I cannot answer for American courts, but unless there has been a substantial shift in terminology in English courts: jury will find the accused either guilty or not guilty - I don't believe 'innocent' is a term used for final delivery of the jury's verdict - but if that has changed in British Courts, I'll be happy to be updated and corrected, if things have altered.

*Scottish courts used to use the terms, Proven/Not Proven/Not Guilty" - thought in recent years there has been much debate over the 'Not Proven' verdict (and may have been dropped?)

[joeysteele]

You are right and certainly in the UK Pyramid anyway, someone has to be proven guilty by the prosecution in a trial, if the jury gives a verdict of 'not guilty' then that person is freed with their character and innocence intact.
There is no difference between not guilty and innocent,both are the same here.the only question mark on a verdict is if the jury could only come to a majority verdict rather than unanimous.

To say anyone found not guilty in the UK that they still are not innocent is a dangerous path to go down in law at least in the UK,(thank goodness for that too).