View Full Version : Riots: Benefits e-petition hits 222,314
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14474429
An e-petition calling for rioters to lose their benefits has hit 100,000 signatures and become the first to be considered for a Commons debate.
It has dwarfed others on the government website, which has struggled to deal with the volume of people accessing it.
The petition has now been formally referred to a committee which will decide whether to hold a debate.
It comes as English councils say they will seek to evict social tenants found guilty of taking part in disorder.
The e-petitions website has been closed to address its technical problems and is due to re-open on Friday.
But the Cabinet Office, which runs it, has confirmed the e-petition submitted by Stephen Mains, saying "convicted London rioters should loose [sic] all benefits" has reached 100,000 signatures.
The threshold for the petition to be referred to the Commons backbench business committee, which can table debates, is 100,000.
Mr Mains's petition has attracted vast numbers of signatures in just a few days. Its nearest rival, a bid launched by Conservative MP Robert Halfon to cut the price of petrol, was well behind it with 24,000 signatures on Wednesday.
Mr Mains's petition argues: "No taxpayer should have to contribute to those who have destroyed property, stolen from their community and shown a disregard for the country that provides for them."
If the backbench committee agrees to table a Commons debate, there is no guarantee the law will be changed.
Power to the people (sort of) !
:dance:
Boothy
11-08-2011, 10:33 PM
What a ****ing stupid idea.
We've got a bunch of people rioting because they're poor. I know, let's take all their money off them and make them poorer.
What a ****ing stupid idea.
We've got a bunch of people rioting because they're poor. I know, let's take all their money off them and make them poorer.
Well, what would YOU do ?
:conf:
Boothy
11-08-2011, 10:53 PM
Well, what would YOU do ?
:conf:
Community service. Make them clean up the mess they've created.
That, and prison sentences for the worst offenders.
Community service. Make them clean up the mess they've created.
That, and prison sentences for the worst offenders.
Both are expensive solutions, especially prison, where, additionally, the incarcerated obtain a "further education" in crime, which they will need since a criminal conviction will make them totally unemployable - in either case, the convicted and their families will continue to receive monetary and other benefits courtesy of the tax-payer .....
InOne
11-08-2011, 11:05 PM
We could just shoot them all :amazed:
What a ****ing stupid idea.
We've got a bunch of people rioting because they're poor. I know, let's take all their money off them and make them poorer.
Nah, they're rioting 'cause they're opportunistic wankers.
I'm poor but I have a little something called respect for my community.
joeysteele
11-08-2011, 11:07 PM
I personally am not in favour of things like this done in the heat of the moment.So I wouldn't sign up to this petition.
I would want a lot of advice and a long inquiry into the matter first. Having said that, I can see the logic in taking valuable possessions of the convicted.
Let the heat die down then make rational and well thought out decisions on further punishments if deemed necessary.
Boothy
11-08-2011, 11:09 PM
Both are expensive solutions, especially prison, where, additionally, the incarcerated obtain a "further education" in crime, which they will need since a criminal conviction will make them totally unemployable - in either case, the convicted and their families will continue to receive monetary and other benefits courtesy of the tax-payer .....
Both true points, however, they're both better alternatives than simply taking away their benefits.
They won't have a house to live in. Leave them homeless, poor job prospects and feeling even more like outcasts than they currently do. I fail to see any long term positives.
We could just shoot them all :amazed:
That is my preferred solution, but, in the interests of humanity, I will settle for hanging the ringleaders and shipping the rest off to a prison island in the Outer Hebrides with the minimum of supervision, shelter and provisions for a period not exceeding 10 years - any survivors would then be totally mad and could be shot like rabid dogs ..... :cool:
What a ****ing stupid idea.
We've got a bunch of people rioting because they're poor. I know, let's take all their money off them and make them poorer.
This, you cut off their only source of income and there is just going to be greater discontent and resentment, probably leading to more riots, what kind of a solution is that
Both are expensive solutions, especially prison, where, additionally, the incarcerated obtain a "further education" in crime, which they will need since a criminal conviction will make them totally unemployable - in either case, the convicted and their families will continue to receive monetary and other benefits courtesy of the tax-payer .....
Riots are expensive as well you know, long term this will cause much more problems
CharlieO
11-08-2011, 11:16 PM
Ship them all over to africa and bring over all those kids who love to go to school over here so they can make something of themselves.
keithafc
11-08-2011, 11:28 PM
Nah, they're rioting 'cause they're opportunistic wankers.
I'm poor but I have a little something called respect for my community.
+1.
The daughter of a millionaire was poor? News to me.
I personally am not in favour of things like this done in the heat of the moment.So I wouldn't sign up to this petition.
I would want a lot of advice and a long inquiry into the matter first. Having said that, I can see the logic in taking valuable possessions of the convicted.
Let the heat die down then make rational and well thought out decisions on further punishments if deemed necessary.
You're quite right, of course, but "laissez-faire" has been one of the causes of the current "problems" - in the past few decades there have been massive changes in technology, wealth and social behaviour which successive governments have failed to curtail, control or even consider - this article dicusses some of the issues, including Welfare dependence, Social exclusion, Lack of fathers, Spending cuts, Weak policing, Racism, Gangsta rap and culture, Consumerism, Opportunism and Technology & social networking :
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14483149
The competing arguments used to explain the riots
Many theories have been posited about the underlying causes of the riots in England - from moral decay to excessive consumerism. Here two criminologists give their views on some of the arguments.
InOne
11-08-2011, 11:32 PM
All I know is there is no real way to "help" these kind of people. If they're doing that at 11 and god knows what age they won't change.
Boothy
11-08-2011, 11:34 PM
+1.
The daughter of a millionaire was poor? News to me.
That's one person out of how many?
Of course there are going to be individual cases, some people like the thrill of being rebellious.
If we're gonna give individual examples then I'll post this.
IjdhEvosC3I
"It's the rich people, we're just showing the rich people we can do what we want"
They've got an 'us vs them' mentality, taking away the only money they've got will reinforce this.
keithafc
11-08-2011, 11:36 PM
That's one person out of how many?
Of course there are going to be individual cases, some people like the thrill of being rebellious.
If we're gonna give individual examples then I'll post this.
IjdhEvosC3I
"It's the rich people, we're just showing the rich people we can do what we want"
They've got an 'us vs them' mentality, taking away the only money they've got will reinforce this.
No disrespect but we are hearing stories of lots of people who are well off and have jobs and they still looted. I agree with the view of that people just joined in and thought they could get away with it.
I admit there is people out in society who don't have a lot but you have to earn it. You can't just go and loot shops and burn buildings down. Lets limit the excuses and get this country back on its feet again.
All I know is there is no real way to "help" these kind of people. If they're doing that at 11 and god knows what age they won't change.
Exactly, they're just following their "role-models" - their brothers and sisters, already thugs on the street ..... they have no moral code or social responsibility - like the lady said "they're feral rats" ..... :eek:
InOne
11-08-2011, 11:38 PM
Exactly, they're just following their "role-models" - their brothers and sisters, already thugs on the street ..... they have no moral code or social responsibility - like the lady said "they're feral rats" ..... :eek:
Pretty much, they can't expect us to care if they're poor and there is no jobs when they ruin hard working peoples businesses
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14500869
A 68-year-old man who was critically injured as he tried he tried to stamp out a fire during riots in west London has died, Scotland Yard has said.
Richard Mannington Bowes suffered head injuries in a violent attack in Ealing on Monday night and was left in a coma.
Police said he was violently assaulted and knocked to the ground.
They have issued a CCTV image of a suspect they want to speak to about the assault on Mr Bowes. A murder investigation has begun.
Jeez ..... :sad:
Mayhem AND murder ..... :eek:
Beastie
12-08-2011, 08:46 AM
These gang members are all "friends". Why not just bung ALL of them in a jail cell together??
Human rights has to change!! What about the shop/business owners rights?? What rights do they have after everything they have worked for has been destroyed?
Why didn't the gangs just target the police and not innocent people from the streets? It's all pathetic.
The laws need to be changed drastically in the UK. Too much pussy footing around!
Yeah if you don't have a job.. why not volunteer to do something then that could lead to a job!!
Suppose it doesn't help bankers getting all these bonuses. The rich getting richer, the poor getting poorer.
Or why not just ship these gangs off to China or somewhere? China would sort them out!
Beastie
12-08-2011, 08:50 AM
Exactly, they're just following their "role-models" - their brothers and sisters, already thugs on the street ..... they have no moral code or social responsibility - like the lady said "they're feral rats" ..... :eek:
I think most of the time it all starts off at home. Yeah peer pressure can get in the way as well.
These kids need a good relationship with their mother/father or both of them! I don't think it's all down to "because there is a load of single mums". As long as the kid has a good relationship or good mother/father to look up to then most of the time they should learn right from wrong and have good morals.
People need to stop breeding when they can't afford it either. Who cares if a 12 year old takes the pill? A better solution than getting pregnant!
And if their benefits were taken away from them, what next, what would it solve, how would it make the situation better. Not all of them are on benefits anyway and the ones who are have enough for the essentials in life. But no, they want all the nice little extras as well, you know the things people have to work and save for. They're opportunist scum who saw a way of getting it and were brave enough because they had a mob along side them. They need to be involved in the clean up, working alongside the people who's lives theyv'e destroyed. They need to understand how hard people work to create something and make a living. They need to be made to understand what the hell they've done. Taking away what little they have will just create more crime and it's inhumane, whatever they have done. Make them work HARD, like the rest of us do, to help put their wrongs right. As for the murders, give them the maximum penalties. This is not about rich v poor, lets not make it about employedv unemployed. It's theft, plain and simple on a grand scale. They joined in beacause they could and thought they would get away with it and a lot of them will
Benjamin
12-08-2011, 09:40 AM
Nah, they're rioting 'cause they're opportunistic wankers.
I'm poor but I have a little something called respect for my community.
I absolutely love this post. It's so easy for people to blame all this on being poor and having no money, but that wasn't the reason the riots started, nor is it an excuse to act the way they were.
I was watching a bit of an interview with some girl who had been looting and her response to why she did it was 'because i can't afford these things'.
I was shocked. I can't afford most things, I don't go looting to get them though. I work hard and save my money. It's called life. These people need to learn that.
https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/7337
Number of signatures:131,983
arista
12-08-2011, 10:17 AM
https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/7337
Number of signatures:131,983
Yes the public want this.
joeysteele
12-08-2011, 10:24 AM
And if their benefits were taken away from them, what next, what would it solve, how would it make the situation better. Not all of them are on benefits anyway and the ones who are have enough for the essentials in life. But no, they want all the nice little extras as well, you know the things people have to work and save for. They're opportunist scum who saw a way of getting it and were brave enough because they had a mob along side them. They need to be involved in the clean up, working alongside the people who's lives theyv'e destroyed. They need to understand how hard people work to create something and make a living. They need to be made to understand what the hell they've done. Taking away what little they have will just create more crime and it's inhumane, whatever they have done. Make them work HARD, like the rest of us do, to help put their wrongs right. As for the murders, give them the maximum penalties. This is not about rich v poor, lets not make it about employedv unemployed. It's theft, plain and simple on a grand scale. They joined in beacause they could and thought they would get away with it and a lot of them will
Totally agree with you, a very reasoned, fair, understanding and practical post that really the Govt would do very well to take notice of.
Just a pity they likely won't see it. Far better than the talking shop we witnessed in the recall of Parliament yesterday.
I really couldn't add to all you've said rhino, a very commendable and informed post on this subject.
Livia
12-08-2011, 10:34 AM
What about the ones who aren't on benefits? Are we going to make them homeless too? It's not going to be that egalitarian, is it. We don't need any more homeless on the streets, there are other ways to punish them.
What about the ones who aren't on benefits?
Confiscation of all their material possessions, except those required to sustain life ..... :hmph:
Boothy
12-08-2011, 11:27 AM
I absolutely love this post. It's so easy for people to blame all this on being poor and having no money, but that wasn't the reason the riots started, nor is it an excuse to act the way they were.
I was watching a bit of an interview with some girl who had been looting and her response to why she did it was 'because i can't afford these things'.
I was shocked. I can't afford most things, I don't go looting to get them though. I work hard and save my money. It's called life. These people need to learn that.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to justify what's gone on at all. I'm just saying taking away their benefits is a stupid idea. Like you said in your post, the girls were rioting and looting because ' they couldn't afford things'. Taking away what little they have will only make this worse.
Yes, they need to learn to work for things. Surely, at this point, community service is the best way to teach them this?
Vicky.
12-08-2011, 12:20 PM
Stupid stupid idea :bored:
Crimson Dynamo
12-08-2011, 12:24 PM
Thrashing them with a birch stick until the skin is flayed from their naked butts would be the best solution
The e-petition 'Convicted London rioters should loose all benefits.' signed by you recently reached 174,942 signatures and a response has been made to it.
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/7337
The Government has notified the Backbench Business Committee in the House of Commons who will consider its suitability for debate when Parliament returns in September. This e-petition will remain live, and people will be able to continue adding their signatures.
As you may be aware, the House of Commons debated the recent public disorder when Parliament was recalled on 11 August 2011 and there was an opportunity for MPs to address the substance of this e-petition. This does not preclude a decision by the Backbench Business Committee to schedule a further debate on this issue when the House of Commons returns from the summer recess.
In the meantime, we would like to update you on the Government’s current position on the substance of this e-petition.
Prisoners convicted of a criminal offence and detained in prison are not entitled to social security benefits. That means that anyone who is eligible for social security benefits and who is caught, convicted and imprisoned for any offence committed during the recent disorder that has disrupted London and other UK cities will be disqualified from receiving social security payments. The Department for Work and Pensions is also looking at whether further sanctions can be imposed on the benefit entitlements of individuals who receive non custodial sentences. In addition the Department is considering increasing the level of fines which can be deducted from benefit entitlement.
In relation to social housing, it is already a ground for eviction if a tenant or a member of their family is involved in anti-social behaviour or criminal activity in their local neighbourhood. Ministers have encouraged social landlords to use these powers, and a number of local authorities have pledged to do so. The Department for Communities and Local Government is consulting on proposals to allow such evictions to take place where the criminal activity takes place outside the vicinity of the local neighbourhood; more information is available to view here: http://www.communities.gov.uk/statements/newsroom/publicdisorder :idc:
joeysteele
13-08-2011, 08:59 AM
Not saying its wrong to evict people who have been convicted of involvement in these riots, however, it would seem on paper, they are going to have to evict a lot of people and families then, what problems will that then encourage if people end up overcrowding other homes or live mainly rough.
Surely the obvious result of that will be massive more crime.As was said last night on the young voters question time as to the riots, Govts have removed rights of diciplining their children from parents over the last few yars or more.
Children can even report their parents in some cases,this seems an ill thought out plan that needs far more consideration and discussing before allowing evictions en masse to take place.
I can only see chaos looming from evictions,especially if more than one person lives in the houses/flats and one or more are not invovled in the rioting events at all.
Policy and laws made in haste will be regretted later,amazed the Lib Dems are not insisting things move much slower on this one.
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions?order=desc&sort=count&state=open
Now 220,347
Cromwell1900
27-08-2011, 04:35 PM
A lot of this "Take their Benefits away" & make them homeless sounds a bit like an eye for an eye, and a loss of moral high ground, an ebbing away of the Character of a Country built up over years of historical understanding of why we have Laws to protect even the Guilty. Although not as extreme but Guantanamo Bay for the Americans has left their right to a Moral voice in the world in tatters, and was fueled by the type of anger only a Country with less Character could of thought up. Fighting fire with fire is tempting but of course it means everyone's house eventually burns down. Concentrate on the next generation and teach them at school what they are not getting from home i think.
It will just cause more problems than it solves. Its easy to say take the benefits off them but what about the implications of that? More riots, theft, protesting, homeless, unemployment where its inevitably going to cost the tax payer just as much to sort those problems out.
billy123
27-08-2011, 05:26 PM
Christ i think everyone should come back to this topic when there knee's stop jerking.
There is no short term solution that will work. Educating young people properly and with more discipline is the solution but thats long term.
Blog Rider
27-08-2011, 10:23 PM
I would go for losing some of there benefits to teach them a lesson, Losing there home is are no from me :)
joeysteele
27-08-2011, 11:42 PM
I would go for losing some of there benefits to teach them a lesson, Losing there home is are no from me :)
I find your response a rational and good idea.Totally agree.
Grimnir
28-08-2011, 11:41 AM
Every single rioter, is now an enemy of the kingdom. Do what must be done. Do not hesitate. Show no mercy.
Wipe them out..... all of them
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14810216
An e-petition calling for benefits to be removed from people convicted of rioting will not be discussed by MPs for at least a month.
The petition - along with one demanding the release of papers relating to the Hillsborough Stadium disaster - gained more than 100,000 signatures, which means it can be debated in the Commons.
But no MP called for the demands to be discussed during a meeting on Tuesday.
This means the petitions cannot be debated until early October.
The government launched its e-petitions site last month, promising that those which pass the 100,000-signature mark should at least be considered for a Commons debate.
Following riots in many English cities, a petition demanding that those convicted of taking part lose "all benefits" rapidly gained support, making it the first to reach the threshold.
A petition calling for the release of cabinet papers relating to the 1989 Hillsborough disaster - in which 96 Liverpool FC fans died - also gathered the required backing.
The Backbench Business Committee discussed subjects for Commons debate on the next available date - 15 September - at its meeting. But no MP spoke in favour of debating the petitioners' demands, meaning they cannot be included.
Instead discussions will either focus on defence, the fishing industry, Kashmir or food security.
Yet another "Big Society" idea fizzles out - MPs settle for their personal issues instead ..... :rolleyes:
joeysteele
08-09-2011, 09:40 AM
Hmm, it's been derailed is the term. Seems Ministers and MPs are at loggerheads as to it.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-15283837
The subject of the first e-petition to prompt a Parliamentary debate has been ignored by MPs when the debate took place.
The online petition - signed by more than 240,000* people - called for those convicted of involvement in the summer riots to be stripped of their benefits.
The three-hour debate in Westminster Hall covered the wider response to the riots, but did not touch on benefits.
The second debate prompted by an e-petition is to be held next week.
During the hearing, MPs shared their views on the causes of the riots, the police response and the impact on their constituencies.
Another of Cameron's Big Ideas swept under the carpet ..... :rolleyes:
* 247,739 (https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/7337)
vBulletin® v3.8.11, Copyright ©2000-2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.