Looter's families should NOT be evicted

[Scarlett.]

Councils are seemingly missing the reason behind why the riots began in the first place, and are instead antagonising them. This will just lead to more unrest.

[Omah]

Council eviction notice for Clapham Junction riot accused's family

A London council is trying to evict a tenant whose son has appeared in court charged in connection with rioting and looting at Clapham Junction.

Wandsworth Council is serving the tenant with an eviction notice - the first stage in the eviction process.

The tenant is believed to be the first in England to face losing their council-owned home as a result of this week's disturbances.

:banana:

[Vicky.]

****ing ridiculous :bored:

[Josy]

I think this is a terrible idea and it could potentially lead to more rioting.

[lostalex]

I don't believe in appeasement.

Say no to appeasement. You must standup for what is right,. not appease those who do wrong.

Put them all in jail, take away all benefits. ZER0 TOLERANCE.

They have no respect for society, why should society then give them free money, free housing?? why?

You should not have respect for people that show no respect to you. That's the golden rule.

Do onto others as they have done onto you.

It's time the British government stopped bringing pillows to a knife fight.

[Vicky.]

Yeah, shove more people out onto the streets. That should help :thumbs:

[lostalex]

Yeah, shove more people out onto the streets. That should help :thumbs:

A few nights on the street, where they didn't have the benefit of their mob friends, might do them some good. Maybe they won't like being out in the street having to fear for their own safety. maybe they'd realize it's not nice being scared and fearful out on yur own in a scary world. Maybe they'd grow some appreciation for law and the reason that law is there to provide that safety and security. Might be a good lesson.

[Vicky.]

A few nights on the street, where they didn't have the benefit of their mob friends, might do them some good. Maybe they won't like being out in the street having to fear for their own safety. Might be a good lesson.

Of course...

Its just a ridiculous idea. Why not just throw the rioters in jail or something? Why on earth take it out on their families? :rolleyes:

[lostalex]

Of course...

Its just a ridiculous idea. Why not just throw the rioters in jail or something? Why on earth take it out on their families? :rolleyes:

they're all cut from the same cloth.

[Patrick]

Vicky for PM.
Settled.

[Vicky.]

they're all cut from the same cloth.

What an ignorant, narrow minded view.

Not that I'm surprised.

[lostalex]

Obviously if it's someone with a disability then there should be an exception, obviously there are exceptions to all rules.

[Shaun]

Foolish "oh that'll please the Daily Mail!" solution with absolutely no thought for the repurcussions.

[lostalex]

If it's a heroin addict that has a bunch of his mates and maybe a few baby momma's living in his council flat though, he should be out.

[Scarlett.]

lostalex, look at these two and tell me if you think they honestly deserve to be living on the cold and dangerous streets?

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/08/13/article-2024605-0D68BDEC00000578-948_306x423.jpg

[arista]

Councils are seemingly missing the reason behind why the riots began in the first place, and are instead antagonising them. This will just lead to more unrest.


this is on the Main thread


Whe do not need loads of threads again

[lostalex]

lostalex, look at these two and tell me if you think they honestly deserve to be living on the cold and dangerous streets?

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/08/13/article-2024605-0D68BDEC00000578-948_306x423.jpg

OMG the tabloids managed to take some poor people on a highstreet shopping spree and take a nice picture? MELT MY HEART. Cause we all know the tabloids don't manipulate things at all... We all know how noble and truthful the tabloids are...

You don't think that photo looks staged?

[arista]

Of course...

Its just a ridiculous idea. Why not just throw the rioters in jail or something? Why on earth take it out on their families? :rolleyes:




Its that Council that want Rid of them.


Times are changing.


He is 18 the Mother Should have Kicked her Criminal Son out.


That Property is needed for a Good Family.


No Vicky for PM

[lostalex]

How many law abiding citizens struggling are waiting for these council flats? Kick the looters out, and put the law abiding citizens that have been waiting IN.

[Livia]

I'm not 100% behind throwing people out of their council house for rioting; there are many things to take into account. However... heaven forfend that these people should have to crash with someone until they find work and rent a place in the private sector like tax-paying, law-abiding members of society. No... they have a council house for life and free money, regardless of their actions.

As for asking if a sad-faced woman and a cute little girl should be kicked out onto the street, I have to ask why that threat is there. If that woman is the mother of a looter, she is reponsible for her child's actions until the age of majority. It is her responsibility as a parent to know what her kid's up to. She had the kid, and with it came responsibilty. How many people have no home to go to because it's been burned to the ground by looters? Why aren't we all having a sob-fest for them? How about the working people who have no job to go to now because looters burned or otherwise wrecked their place of work?

There are people, who have been discharged from the army and for one reason or another have ended up living on the street. There are kids living on the street who have fled abuse. Can't see anyone having worrying about them, and yet they are surely more deserving of sympathy and a roof over their head than someone who had no respect for themselves, the police, society... anything.

[arista]

How many law abiding citizens struggling are waiting for these council flats? Kick the looters out, and put the law abiding citizens that have been waiting IN.



hundreds

[joeysteele]

Unless, it is proven that the families of anyone convicted knew their member of their family was involved in the riots, withheld that information or was in receipt of any stolen items then this idea of evicting whole families is not only silly and badly planned or worked out but it is also as wrong as the rioting itself.

This Govt and the Lib Dems in particular must take a stand on the bringing in of such extreme policies and I can see councils being taken to the court of human rights on this one.
Making people homeless,who are not convicted of having anyhting to do with these riots should not be allowed.

The other issue is the rest of a family who live in these houses/flats may well be law abiding anyway,no society should punish the innocent.

[Tom4784]

Punish the criminals, not their families. It'll serve them right if this just stirs up more riots since they're punishing innocents for the actions of a few idiots. It's a stupid emotional reaction that has Daily Mail written all over it. Actions like these will make things worse.

[lostalex]

There are plenty of people waiting to get into these flats. People that work their ass off at menial jobs that these chavs won't do, and they don't spend their evening trying on new trainers from broken shop windows.

Give THOSE people a place to live.

[Livia]

Okay, if they can keep their benefits and their homes and everything... give them a year to get themselves on their feet, find a job and rent privately. And then kick them out. They have lost their right to a free ride.

[Scarlett.]

this is on the Main thread


Whe do not need loads of threads again

It's a debate seperate from the main riot one.

[arista]

Punish the criminals, not their families. It'll serve them right if this just stirs up more riots since they're punishing innocents for the actions of a few idiots. It's a stupid emotional reaction that has Daily Mail written all over it. Actions like these will make things worse.


No this was a public vote.

Not the D.Mail

[joeysteele]

Punish the criminals, not their families. It'll serve them right if this just stirs up more riots since they're punishing innocents for the actions of a few idiots. It's a stupid emotional reaction that has Daily Mail written all over it. Actions like these will make things worse.

Very well said Dezzy.
Also I think really a policy and rule forced into being like this one from any Govt,on the wave of the hysteria currently around the events takes the establishment down to the level of the mindless people involved in the riots.

No way should it be fair or legal to punish families,who have not been involved in the rioting or the proceeds thereof. It is simply as wrong as the rioting itself.

The govt and Councils who bring such things in for those involved in the rioting and then extend any punishment to those of their family who they live with, will come to rue the day and pay a heavier price even than now for doing so.

[lostalex]

I think some of the people arguing here are arguing against the idea of petitions more than they are arguing against the idea of kicking looters out and letting hardworking families into their flats.

[joeysteele]

Since when does Govt and Local Authorities in the main for that matter usually or ever take notice of public opinion,only when it suits some of their own idealogical thinking.
Govts have ignored demonstrations, petitions and voters and citizens screaming for all sorts for decades.
Odd on this 'very extreme' issue then they seem to want to listen now.

[Scarlett.]

Punish the criminals, not their families. It'll serve them right if this just stirs up more riots since they're punishing innocents for the actions of a few idiots. It's a stupid emotional reaction that has Daily Mail written all over it. Actions like these will make things worse.

Yep, the government are being childish in the way this is all being dealt with, they shouldn't have just bowed down to the general public - this is the sort of issue that needs to be debated in parliament before getting the go ahead.

[joeysteele]

Yep, the government are being childish in the way this is all being dealt with, they shouldn't have just bowed down to the general public - this is the sort of issue that needs to be debated in parliament before getting the go ahead.

I agree and also lot more consultation from people who know what they are talking about too, I would have thought this Govt in particular had already had enough of making policy on a whim and then having to consult and discuss and backtrack on such badly and wrongly set out policies in the first place.

Punish those involved in the rioting,yes, no one else though.

[arista]

I think some of the people arguing here are arguing against the idea of petitions more than they are arguing against the idea of kicking looters out and letting hardworking families into their flats.



Yes The New family are Not Looters




Good Point.

[arista]

Social Tenant Contract
has Conditions of that housing.



If you break those conditions
and Set Fires and Loot.


You Must be Evicted.

It goes to Court
They get Evicted.

[Tom4784]

I don't think there's no defending this, it's wrong because you'll end affecting people who haven't commited any crimes and punishing innocents to get at a few guilty chavs is just not worth it. How would you feel if a family member commited a crime and then you were made to feel the brunt of the consequences just because you share blood?

It's guilt by association and it's wrong.

[lostalex]

I don't think there's no defending this, it's wrong because you'll end affecting people who haven't commited any crimes and punishing innocents to get at a few guilty chavs is just not worth it. How would you feel if a family member commited a crime and then you were made to feel the brunt of the consequences just because you share blood?

It's guilt by association and it's wrong.

you're missing the point. It is these FAMILIES which should be taking responsibility for their children. Where do you think these wayward children learned this behavior?? YOU make it sound like parents cannot be held responsible for their own children.

If the parents arn't held responsible for them, then WHO should be???

[arista]

I don't think there's no defending this, it's wrong because you'll end affecting people who haven't commited any crimes and punishing innocents to get at a few guilty chavs is just not worth it. How would you feel if a family member commited a crime and then you were made to feel the brunt of the consequences just because you share blood?

It's guilt by association and it's wrong.


But that 18 year old is Under a Housing Contract
These are Current Laws.


It goes to Court.

You can stand out the Court, if you wish.

But the UK Public agree to Hit Back Hard.

[Tom4784]

you're missing the point. It is these FAMILIES which should be taking responsibility for their children. Where do you think these wayward children learned this behavior?? YOU make it sound like parents cannot be held responsible for their own children.

If the parents arn't held responsible for them, then WHO should be???

It's not always the parent's fault though, are all your failures as a person down to your parents? No, because we're all our own people and we've all got a mind of our own. I'm not saying that a lot of the time it is down to poor parenting but does that warrant such a stupid blanket method of dealing with the riots?

Punish the people who went out and rioted instead of trying to vindicate them by playing the blame game.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Its in the tenancy agreement.

/end of.

[arista]

Its in the tenancy agreement.

/end of.



Yes thats
what goes to Court.



This is Legal,

[lostalex]

It's not always the parent's fault though, are all your failures as a person down to your parents? No, because we're all our own people and we've all got a mind of our own. I'm not saying that a lot of the time it is down to poor parenting but does that warrant such a stupid blanket method of dealing with the riots?

Punish the people who went out and rioted instead of trying to vindicate them by playing the blame game.

Well if they are grown adults, for whom their parents cannot be held responsible, then WHY are they still living with their parents at all?? If they are grown adults, responsible for themselves, then they should be out on their own. And if the parents don't kick them out, then everyone get's kicked out.

Parents need to start taking responsibility too. This is not just some kids that turned out bad, and i think you know that. This is a cultural problem. Culture is learned at home first. Does the government and teachers, and clergy and community have some responsibility too?? yes, but not NEARLY as much as the parents.

These problems start at home, so it's time the government starts focusing their efforts on the HOMES. Not on the schools, not on the churches, not on the local councils, IN THE HOME. And the best way to stop this cycle is to kick out the kics causing the problem, cause how many of these looters have younger brothers and sisters that look up top them, alot of these homes don't have father figures, so who are the younger brothers looking up to? these out of control older brothers or out of control deadbeat *live with mum boyfriend types*, that shouldn't even be at that home anyway. get them out.

That's my 2 cents worth.

[joeysteele]

I know little about tenancy agreements but for me morally and in the name of right, if you have a family in a house, Parents,maybe a Grandparent and then 2 or 3 children/teenagers living there too, then one of the children/teenagers goes out and got involved in these riots.
I would consider it not only ridiculous but that it should be illegal, to not just put out of that home, the child/teen that was involved in the riots but to then go on to evict all those others too.

Quite frankly if that became the new laws of the land,then I fear for the UK.Usually I see all other's views but if anyone believes that in the above scenario,it would be right and justifiable to punish all those other people in that home too then that worries me bigtime as to the credibility of the UK.

[arista]

I know little about tenancy agreements but for me morally and in the name of right, if you have a family in a house, Parents,maybe a Grandparent and then 2 or 3 children/teenagers living there too, then one of the children/teenagers goes out and got involved in these riots.
I would consider it not only ridiculous but that it should be illegal, to not just put out of that home, the child/teen that was involved in the riots but to then go on to evict all those others too.

Quite frankly if that became the new laws of the land,then I fear for the UK.Usually I see all other's views but if anyone believes that in the above scenario,it would be right and justifiable to punish all those other people in that home too then that worries me bigtime as to the credibility of the UK.

These are Current Council Agreements
That mother should have kicked that 18 year old son out.
Its all that 18 year old Criminal Looters fault.


It goes to Court.
Expect the World Media outside it.

[lostalex]

I know little about tenancy agreements but for me morally and in the name of right, if you have a family in a house, Parents,maybe a Grandparent and then 2 or 3 children/teenagers living there too, then one of the children/teenagers goes out and got involved in these riots.
I would consider it not only ridiculous but that it should be illegal, to not just put out of that home, the child/teen that was involved in the riots but to then go on to evict all those others too.

Quite frankly if that became the new laws of the land,then I fear for the UK.Usually I see all other's views but if anyone believes that in the above scenario,it would be right and justifiable to punish all those other people in that home too then that worries me bigtime as to the credibility of the UK.

So basically you are advocating, that a family of misfits, should be given a home BY the government, at the tax payers expense, as a "home base" from which to terrorize the rest of the community? IN what freaking universe does that make sense to you?

[Livia]

Since when does Govt and Local Authorities in the main for that matter usually or ever take notice of public opinion,only when it suits some of their own idealogical thinking.
Govts have ignored demonstrations, petitions and voters and citizens screaming for all sorts for decades.
Odd on this 'very extreme' issue then they seem to want to listen now.

A little unfair, I think. The present government has made several u-turns on its thinking in the face of public opinion. Of course they were criticised for it just as they would have been criticised for not taking public feeling into account. For instance, hey u-turned on the sale of the forests because the public made it clear they did not want it. That started off with a petition...

[Livia]

It's not always the parent's fault though, are all your failures as a person down to your parents? No, because we're all our own people and we've all got a mind of our own. I'm not saying that a lot of the time it is down to poor parenting but does that warrant such a stupid blanket method of dealing with the riots?

Punish the people who went out and rioted instead of trying to vindicate them by playing the blame game.

Parents are responsible for their children until they reach the age of 18. That's the law. Punish parents who do not take responsibility. Currently we shy away from it, and that's taught people to completely disassociate themselves from their kids wrongdoing. If we did hold them responsible - as we are able to do under the law - it might send out the message that you can't pop out kids without taking full responsibility for them and teaching them what's right and what's wrong.

[joeysteele]

So basically you are advocating, that a family of misfits, should be given a home BY the government, at the tax payers expense, as a "home base" from which to terrorize the rest of the community? IN what freaking universe does that make sense to you?

I am advocating, not how you are spinning and twisting what I said but advocating that far from a family of misfits, I put in the scenario a family normal and general, where only one person has stepped out of line and joined these riots,none of the others.
Where did I ever call them all a family of misfits?

It will never make sense to me to punish the innocent for one or others wrongdoing.
I am far from the only one on here who think it's wrong to put out of a home a whole family,where only one person has been doing great wrong,none of the others.

[joeysteele]

A little unfair, I think. The present government has made several u-turns on its thinking in the face of public opinion. Of course they were criticised for it just as they would have been criticised for not taking public feeling into account. For instance, hey u-turned on the sale of the forests because the public made it clear they did not want it. That started off with a petition...

I don't think I was being that unfair, the NHS shambles was one of the worst public exercises I have come across in the last 2 Govts.
I feel the Conservatives are always having to look over their shoulders at how the Lib Dems react to things and then have the need to backtrack on some policies rather rushed through.

I feel this move as to evicting members of family not involved in or convicted of the riots,will be another where later, the Lib Dems will turn away again and think again once their so called executive and party activists demand them to.
Then there will be likely another mess to clear up.

It almost seems to me that the Lib Dems appear to support for the sake of stable Govt, the policies put forward by the Conservatves but later when their party shouts them down on it,they then claim the credit for making the Conservatives think again and backtracking and sometimes scrapping most of them altogether.

I still stand firmly on the point though that I will never believe punishing the innocent for one person's or others wrongdoing can be right,
Parents can get into deep trouble if they discipline their children too much and too harshly.
Throw then out when they do wrong,yes, but parents cannot be with them all the time and especially teenagers.

[Vicky.]

Parents are responsible for their children until they reach the age of 18. That's the law. Punish parents who do not take responsibility. Currently we shy away from it, and that's taught people to completely disassociate themselves from their kids wrongdoing. If we did hold them responsible - as we are able to do under the law - it might send out the message that you can't pop out kids without taking full responsibility for them and teaching them what's right and what's wrong.

Short of locking your kids in the house though, nailing their windows shut etc.(which is probably classed as child abuse) how on earth could you stop your child from joining in with what their mates are doing? Especially the late teenage children.

[arista]

Short of locking your kids in the house though, nailing their windows shut etc.(which is probably classed as child abuse) how on earth could you stop your child from joining in with what their mates are doing? Especially the late teenage children.

He is a 18year old
that has destroyed his Mums Future.



Sign Of The Times.

[Vicky.]

He is a 18year old
that has destroyed his Mums Future.



Sign Of The Times.

Right...so the parents are meant to be responsible for what an 18 year old does?

And its all well and good saying he shouldnt still be living with his parents as he is old enough to live on his own, but realistically, how many parents would kick their own kids out on the street just because they turn 18?

[arista]

"Throw then out when they do wrong,yes, but parents
cannot be with them all the time and especially teenagers. "


But that Mum could have kicked him out of his home.

Its her Fault.

[joeysteele]

Short of locking your kids in the house though, nailing their windows shut etc.(which is probably classed as child abuse) how on earth could you stop your child from joining in with what their mates are doing? Especially the late teenage children.

You are totally right Vicky, and although you used an extreme example it is also a good one because if Parents locked their children/teenagers in the house and nailed their windows down,they would be likely prosecuted for false imprisonment.

Parents and Teachers have had many restrictions placed on them by successive Govts.Look at the chaos in some schools and Teachers are left powerless to deal with it.
To advocate now punishing parents and other members of the family for one of their owns wrongdoing would be totally ridiculous and simply wrong to do so.

[Vicky.]

"Throw then out when they do wrong,yes, but parents
cannot be with them all the time and especially teenagers. "


But that Mum could have kicked him out of his home.

Its her Fault.

Again, many might say they would, but how many parents would actually throw their kids out?

And this whole asking parents to shop their kids if they know they were involved in the riots thing. It would be rare(IMO) for a parent to do that in the first place, even less likely now. Yeah, you help by telling the police that your child was involved. And are rewarded by being kicked out of your house :crazy:

[arista]

"kicked out of your house"


No Vicky - This is not a Police Matter
This is Wandsworth Council matter
using this case to warn any others that have Council Flats
that their Contracts are legal.


Even the Labour Party understand this move.

[Marc]

It would be a stupid move. Why evict them? They'll just come back worse.

[Vicky.]

"kicked out of your house"


No Vicky - This is not a Police Matter
This is Wandsworth Council matter
using this case to warn any others that have Council Flats
that their Contracts are legal.


Even the Labour Party understand this move.

I didnt say it was the police that were evicting people.

But they are calling for people to grass their own kids (and fair play to anyone who has done it, it must take a LOT to do that) yet the people who are found to have kids who have been involved are getting kicked out. So basically, the few that would have done it in the first place, wont now.

[arista]

I didnt say it was the police that were evicting people.

But they are calling for people to grass their own kids (and fair play to anyone who has done it, it must take a LOT to do that) yet the people who are found to have kids who have been involved are getting kicked out. So basically, the few that would have done it in the first place, wont now.



This is One London Council that is Using this council law.
To take Control of there area.


In Manchester its not the same.
The Police are wanting Parents to give up there bad kids

[Jords]

Talk about adding wood to the fire!

[Vicky.]

This is One London Council that is Using this council law.
To take Control of there area.


In Manchester its not the same.
The Police are wanting Parents to give up there bad kids

Yet.

[arista]

Talk about adding wood to the fire!


No
that mother can still go Live
on ITVNews
ITV1 London News, BBC1London News
Ch4News, Ch5News, SkyNewsHD , Newsnight
RT Russia, France24, CNN,
and LBC Radio.

[arista]

ITV London Local News
just went to the Local area that the 18 year old Punk Smashed Up
and Everyone on there Interview said yes Evict them,

Vicky , I am sorry but you are not getting the true picture here,
his Spanish mother will have to go to court over this.

But locals will Spit on her.

The 18 year old is locked up now
and claims he did nothing?
Thats why the Council are going Full attack on the Home.


Ref: ITV1 London News



Watch Ch4 News at 6:35PM today.

[Livia]

Short of locking your kids in the house though, nailing their windows shut etc.(which is probably classed as child abuse) how on earth could you stop your child from joining in with what their mates are doing? Especially the late teenage children.

It's not my problem that some people can't control their children. I would have thought it important to instill into your kids a sense of right and wrong, teach them what respect actually means and that it's not a word that was made up by MTV. And if that's not possible, parents should be ready to give up things in order to make amends.

Maybe some people should think longer and harder about whether they should have kids; remind them that, once they're finished dressing their little babies like dollies, there is a job to do to make them into responsible members of society. Otherwise we might as well say, no need to teach your kids to be responsible members of society because there is no come-back at all on the feckless parents, and the rest of us will pick up the tab.

[tmi]

The message is crime dosent pay, when you see the series Strangeways,they have three square meals a day a bed , snooker table and plasma tvs where is the punishment, I dont have a plasma tv . The deterent isnt there no more feed them on bread and water and lets see how they cope then.I think the government is seen has putting they foot down with the thugs and theyre families and saying you abide by the rules your ok if you dont your out.

I live in a run down area and I wish they would evict the drug dealers and the pervs from my neighbour, perhaps they should put them on a floating ship.
The riots were pure criminal and envy, I want what you have and if I cant afford it I will pinch it, bring back national service I say no job, then sign them
up give them some purpose, the rich are getting rich and the poorer are getting poorer, the frigging bonuses are being hande out to the ones who run the banks
perhaps that should be put into funding youth clubs, training centres for the young.

[Tom4784]

It's not my problem that some people can't control their children. I would have thought it important to instill into your kids a sense of right and wrong, teach them what respect actually means and that it's not a word that was made up by MTV. And if that's not possible, parents should be ready to give up things in order to make amends.

Maybe some people should think longer and harder about whether they should have kids; remind them that, once they're finished dressing their little babies like dollies, there is a job to do to make them into responsible members of society. Otherwise we might as well say, no need to teach your kids to be responsible members of society because there is no come-back at all on the feckless parents, and the rest of us will pick up the tab.

It's not your problem yet you'll stick your oar in. You can't just use that to back out of an argument when you feel like it. You blame the parents? Offer up real solutions instead of stock advice that doesn't work in the real world. People who criticise yet don't offer up any real solutions are just pointless.

Kids veer off the right path regardless of good parenting at times for outside factors, It's very easy to say it's the parents' fault but prisons aren't full of people from bad homes because shockingly enough people with good parents are also capable of making stupid decisions. Simply blaming the parents is just simplifying the matter down to a moronic degree and making them and other family members suffer for one person's idiocy is just foolishness. Most of the people who have been arrested have been teenagers on the higher end of the scale who know their own mind and the difference between right and wrong, even with bad parenting you'll realise that eventually. However it was their choice to riot, no one else's so why make a lot of people suffer who wouldn't have done anything wrong? People are just playing the blame game when the only people to blame are obvious, the rioters themselves.

[Shaun]

I think it's become difficult to put across exactly what "good parenting" is any more. With more and more traditional methods (particularly in the field of discipline) it's become apparent that parents are ultimately helpless in trying to instil discipline into children. I confess with no sense of bitterness or anger towards my mother, that she did hit me if I did something (very) wrong, and I do stand by the fact that it helps. I never had any bruises or psychological damage from it and I think penalising parents for it because of some extreme cases in the media is absurd.

However, I don't think the riots are down to poor parenting. And even so - the possibility of eviction doesn't just affect the parents, it affects siblings too (who are not "to blame"). For too long people have treated 'chavs' as some kind of subsociety with disdain and snobbery - and whilst I of course agree that rioting, vandalism and theft is by no means acceptable, it was an extreme reaction to gather attention for the amount of discrimination and injustice these people face every single day - by police, by the government and by the media. Time and time again you'll hear these people complain about their voices not being heard and this was the perfect opportunity to hear them.

It's difficult though because some will inevitably have gone along with the looting out of sheer opportunism and it's hard to distinguish these from those rioting out of frustration. And I am so bored of people arguing "oh you don't know real poverty like Ethiopia or Somalia do" - just because poverty isn't the most extreme poverty, does not mean it's not poverty.

[Vicky.]

It's not my problem that some people can't control their children. I would have thought it important to instill into your kids a sense of right and wrong, teach them what respect actually means and that it's not a word that was made up by MTV. And if that's not possible, parents should be ready to give up things in order to make amends.

Maybe some people should think longer and harder about whether they should have kids; remind them that, once they're finished dressing their little babies like dollies, there is a job to do to make them into responsible members of society. Otherwise we might as well say, no need to teach your kids to be responsible members of society because there is no come-back at all on the feckless parents, and the rest of us will pick up the tab.

Kids going bad is not always to do with bad parenting though. Of course it is SOMETIMES. But not in all cases :/

[Vicky.]

I confess with no sense of bitterness or anger towards my mother, that she did hit me if I did something (very) wrong, and I do stand by the fact that it helps. I never had any bruises or psychological damage from it and I think penalising parents for it because of some extreme cases in the media is absurd.


I agree 100% with this.

I was smacked as a child. It taught me to listen to my parents. I'm not emotionally scarred over it, it did me no harm at all. Nowadays parents are looked down on for smacking their kids, and Im told (?) its against the law. Pathetic.

How can people be expected to get unruly kids to listen to them when they arent allowed to discipline them?

(However the 'kid; in this case was 18. We dont know how he was brought up or anything. Could be that he was the perfect child until he hit 17 or something and got in with the wrong crowd or something. To lay the blame on the parents for the action of an adult is ****ing ridiculous tbh. Just thought I would add this bit incase it came across that I was blaming bad parenting for riots etc :p)

[tmi]

I agree 100% with this.

I was smacked as a child. It taught me to listen to my parents. I'm not emotionally scarred over it, it did me no harm at all. Nowadays parents are looked down on for smacking their kids, and Im told (?) its against the law. Pathetic.

How can people be expected to get unruly kids to listen to them when they arent allowed to discipline them?

(However the 'kid; in this case was 18. We dont know how he was brought up or anything. Could be that he was the perfect child until he hit 17 or something and got in with the wrong crowd or something. To lay the blame on the parents for the action of an adult is ****ing ridiculous tbh. Just thought I would add this bit incase it came across that I was blaming bad parenting for riots etc :p)

I know you cannot blame everything on the parents, but where were the parents when the kids was roaming the streets, I have teenagers and they both in at 7.30 every nite, if they not going looking for them. If something happened like that where I lived I would have rounded the kids up.
I was brought up know the difference of right and wrong and the fundamental rule, you are responsible for your actions. Sometimes it can be peer pressure as well on the kids. I teach mine if they act like @rseholes dont bother with them if I dont like my childrens friend and they are dimwits they dont come in my home. Tough love. I stopped my boy bothering with one boy and he has been expelled from school three times and he is 13:nono: I think my boy has now learned he not the boy he thought.

[Vicky.]

I know you cannot blame everything on the parents, but where were the parents when the kids was roaming the streets, I have teenagers and they both in at 7.30 every nite, if they not going looking for them. If something happened like that where I lived I would have rounded the kids up.
I was brought up know the difference of right and wrong and the fundamental rule, you are responsible for your actions. Sometimes it can be peer pressure as well on the kids. I teach mine if they act like @rseholes dont bother with them if I dont like my childrens friend and they are dimwits they dont come in my home. Tough love. I stopped my boy bothering with one boy and he has been expelled from school three times and he is 13:nono: I think my boy has now learned he not the boy he thought.

Maybe inside looking after their other younger kids? I dont know.

All Im saying is its pretty much impossible to control some teenagers. ESPECIALLY an 18 year old, like in this case.

[tmi]

Maybe inside looking after their other younger kids? I dont know.

All Im saying is its pretty much impossible to control some teenagers. ESPECIALLY an 18 year old, like in this case.

I get what your saying they think they are invincible at that age, but if the ground rules are there in the beginning then they set for life, a person personality is made within the first seven years of they're life, people are not born bad things in their life determine that. Have you seen the nannie programme and the youngsters on there at two and three hitting their parents, wtf .Kids only eating rubbish, when I was growing you had what was on your plate otherwise your head was in it.:shocked:

[Vicky.]

I get what your saying they think they are invincible at that age, but if the ground rules are there in the beginning then they set for life, a person personality is made within the first seven years of they're life, people are not born bad things in their life determine that. Have you seen the nannie programme and the youngsters on there at two and three hitting their parents, wtf .Kids only eating rubbish, when I was growing you had what was on your plate otherwise your head was in it.:shocked:

I dont agree with this at all.

If this were the case, then how come the siblings of murders, criminals etc. arent bad too? Surely if everything was to do with how you were brought up, then the whole family would be bad...no?

[tmi]

I dont agree with this at all.

If this were the case, then how come the siblings of murders, criminals etc. arent bad too? Surely if everything was to do with how you were brought up, then the whole family would be bad...no?

It dosent work like that if a child feels isolated because maybe one child feels less loved than another. Some people deal with emotions in different ways. People sometimes feel angry and agreesive because they feel left out for one reason or another. Say for instants, a person has two boys they brought up the same way one turns out to be gay the other dosent. What is the reason for that? A foetus up until sixteen weeks is female that might have a lot to
with latter of my arguement, so do how many brother and sister act do you kow that does murder and violent crime.

[Vicky.]

It dosent work like that if a child feels isolated because maybe one child feels less loved than another. Some people deal with emotions in different ways. People sometimes feel angry and agreesive because they feel left out for one reason or another.

So its not to do with how you are brought up then. Its the way you view things...

[tmi]

So its not to do with how you are brought up then. Its the way you view things...

Not always but perhaps sometimes, if you dress a boy in girls clothes will they become gay no , at the end of the day people are responsible for the things they do no one else . Who knows , well the looting I have had a massive blow my husband lost his job and he the main earner would I do that no. Even if I was starving , so for me it is not the way I view things. Some people think the world owes them a living , they better wake up and smell the coffee, it dont, You get out of the world what you put in, sometimes agression needs to be challeneged into postive things otherise it can eat you up.

[Vicky.]

Not always but perhaps sometimes, if you dress a boy in girls clothes will they become gay no , at the end of the day people are responsible for the things they do no one else . Who knows , well the looting I have had a massive blow my husband lost his job and he the main earner would I do that no. Even if I was starving , so for me it is not the way I view things. Some people think the world owes them a living , they better wake up and smell the coffee, it dont, You get out of the world what you put in, sometimes agression needs to be challeneged into postive things otherise it can eat you up.

Which is precisely my point. Its ridiculous to blame the parents for what the kids do. Especially at 18 year old.

Sorry to hear about your husband too. I have never felt so grateful to live in newcastle before. Was really expecting it to start up here too but luckily it didnt.

[tmi]

Which is precisely my point. Its ridiculous to blame the parents for what the kids do. Especially at 18 year old.

Sorry to hear about your husband too. I have never felt so grateful to live in newcastle before. Was really expecting it to start up here too but luckily it didnt.

I live in the valleys is Pyramid banned? I live not far from where Nathan Cleverley is from, or Darcy Blake:hugesmile:
I think it was nipped in the bud. I think the human rights **** as a lot to answer for ,the criminals have more rights than the victims what a load of bollockony.

[Vicky.]

I live in the valleys is Pyramid banned? I live not far from where Nathan Cleverley is from, or Darcy Blake:hugesmile:
I think it was nipped in the bud. I think the human rights **** as a lot to answer for ,the criminals have more rights than the victims what a load of bollockony.

Very true.

And yeah, pyramid is banned. reason is in the ban list :)

[tmi]

Very true.

And yeah, pyramid is banned. reason is in the ban list :)

Thanks perhaps the streets of London and else where will be quiet when the Cbb starts, I do think they should have a reduction in allowance rather it being taken away for a few wks, crime dosent pay and all that, if they have they benefits revoked alltogther they may turn to crime to survive, I believe like one poster said there should be sanctions on visa if they disobey the law kick them out and they have to have proof they are working, the trouble with this country is they are yes people trying to please everyone, it shouldnt be like that in America if you have a record you aint allowed in, I think we should bring that here.

[Scarlett.]

The Lib Dems appear to be quite unhappy about it all
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/aug/13/england-riots-coalition-response

[Scarlett.]

The Lib Dems appear to be quite unhappy about it all
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/aug/13/england-riots-coalition-response

[joeysteele]

Well, the Lib Dems have waited to see what their activists and party members are coming back with,just as on the NHS propsals originally. I guess the initial responses to the MPs from them are not supportive.

However, I hope the Lib Dems do flex their muscles on this and prevent really extreme policy/laws being brought in that will affect people not involved in the actual riots themselves.

This policy is being led by a very extreme council (Wandsworth) who quite frankly needs the govt to come down heavy on it and slap it's proposals down,hopefully.

[Livia]

It's not your problem yet you'll stick your oar in. You can't just use that to back out of an argument when you feel like it. You blame the parents? Offer up real solutions instead of stock advice that doesn't work in the real world. People who criticise yet don't offer up any real solutions are just pointless.

Kids veer off the right path regardless of good parenting at times for outside factors, It's very easy to say it's the parents' fault but prisons aren't full of people from bad homes because shockingly enough people with good parents are also capable of making stupid decisions. Simply blaming the parents is just simplifying the matter down to a moronic degree and making them and other family members suffer for one person's idiocy is just foolishness. Most of the people who have been arrested have been teenagers on the higher end of the scale who know their own mind and the difference between right and wrong, even with bad parenting you'll realise that eventually. However it was their choice to riot, no one else's so why make a lot of people suffer who wouldn't have done anything wrong? People are just playing the blame game when the only people to blame are obvious, the rioters themselves.


Firstly, let me say, I am surprised that you of all people would feel justified in suggesting that I am a pointless person and that my opinion is moronic. As for "sticking my oar in", this is a debate thread on a forum, it's all about sticking your oar in even though your opinion may differ from the majority.

No, it's not my problem, it is the problem of the parent of the child in question. My only problem is that I pay tax, which is spent on benefits, child allowance, contributes to tax credits, my council tax goes to pay for education... fair enough. However, I don't expect that money to pay the rent of some feckless parent who can't control their child. Whichever way you cut it, parents are responsible for their kids until they reach 18. I haven't made that up. That's the law.

In this case, you're talking about how good parents sometimes can't help their kids going off the rails, and I agree with you. I'm sure the decent parents were disgusted by their kids actions. I see the mother of the athlete shopped her to the cops, and good for her, making her child face the consequences. I'm not talking about people like them, I'm not talking about decent parents, I'm talking about the kind of scum who have shogged along to court this week with their kids, wearing their best tracksuit bottoms, sticking their fingers up and telling the photographers to go and ******* themselves. They couldn't give a monkey's toss about anything that doesn't affect their free money and subsidised residence. This thread is about whether to take away the homes and/or benefits off people who are probably known to the police, who may have previously been reported to the council as anti social, who will have signed a lease setting out their responsibilities, people who have been probably been given more than once chance. Enough is enough.

[Zippy]

I don't think families should be evicted as a result of a one off incident. However, if members of a council household have a record of bringing crime and destruction to an area then the council have every right to get rid of them. Its for the benefit of the decent people who live in the area.

That said, a severe warning may suffice for this occasion rather than an immediate eviction. At this point its the actual person that is convicted that should be heavily punished. But if they continue to behave that way then the council have an absolute right to evict them. Nobody has a right to drag areas down to their own scumbag level....certainly not when taxpayers are paying their bills.

[jayne_sophia]

Can someone please start a counter petition, clearly this a a very narrow minded solution, that needs to be resolved. What r the government thinking???

[Livia]

Can someone please start a counter petition, clearly this a a very narrow minded solution, that needs to be resolved. What r the government thinking???

Why don't you do it, if you feel so strongly?

[Benjamin]

Yeah, shove more people out onto the streets. That should help :thumbs:

It may teach them to actually respect their community and make them realise that most of us work hard to keep a roof over our heads. We don't all live for free handouts.

[Vicky.]

It may teach them to actually respect their community and make them realise that most of us work hard to keep a roof over our heads. We don't all live for free handouts.

Yeah. God forbid the siblings of criminals have a roof over their heads :)

[joeysteele]

It may teach them to actually respect their community and make them realise that most of us work hard to keep a roof over our heads. We don't all live for free handouts.

I cannot see how it could possibly be that to evict someone from their home will make them respect authority or their community more never mind at all.

If people commit crime they are dealt with by a courtand anyone cauight for these riots should get heavy sentencing but it should also be a court that decides if someone warrants losing their home, weighing up all the considerations thereof.

However, talking of respecting their communities, as well as the above scenario,take into account if not only the perpetrators of crime were evicted from the homes but then also any family they live with,be that wife/husband and children,or Parents etc.
Making all those people homeless too just for having them live in the same house not charged with any rioting offences at all, then how in any way that would make those people respect their communities and authority more is beyond me, it is far more likely to make them lash out more in the community and then not have an address to track them back to, to catch and convict them.

Also, I don't believe it's the case that 'all' tenants of council housing get their rents paid for them.
I know people whose parents live in Council housing and they are paying in excess of £80 a week. It's wrong to generalise that everyone in such housing,or that everyone involved in these riots live in housing paid in full for them by the taxpayers.

[Livia]

Joey, no one's talking about decent parents who take some responsibility. I think you know the kind of parents who are at threat of losing their homes. I doubt there will be any blanket law that would cover everyone who's kids were involved. Previous events will obviously be taken into account.

Paying only £80 a week rent for a house or flat is a privilege. That privilege can be withdrawn. If people do get eviced they will have to rent somewhere privately and pay what non-council tenants pay in rent. That means they'll have to get a job. That's what I would have to do if for some reason I lost my home. That's what lots of people who do not rely on the state for housing would have to do.

[joeysteele]

Joey, no one's talking about decent parents who take some responsibility. I think you know the kind of parents who are at threat of losing their homes. I doubt there will be any blanket law that would cover everyone who's kids were involved. Previous events will obviously be taken into account.

Paying only £80 a week rent for a house or flat is a privilege. That privilege can be withdrawn. If people do get eviced they will have to rent somewhere privately and pay what non-council tenants pay in rent. That means they'll have to get a job. That's what I would have to do if for some reason I lost my home. That's what lots of people who do not rely on the state for housing would have to do.

Others. not you, on here are generalising that this is from bad parents in the main, who live on council estates getting their rents paid for them.

I know a family who get only £260 every week, they are a couple with a daughter of 16 living at home.
Out of that they pay every week, £82 in rent and then they have council tax too.
They do nothing wrong, but when they hear the terminology of all politicians and the way the lower classes are smeared with these riots,before all the facts are known,then they are very angry indeed.

In this case, the Mother has stayed at home, and brought her daughter up,the Father has worked all his working life.
There are far more people like them but if on the off chance their daughter had been involved in the riots,people on here and some very extreme and cold politicians and media would be listing them as a target to be evicted too,not just the daughter.

Wrong to me that is, and if it's right,then the UK has a very hard future ahead of it. If the UK goes down this road, I think I would rather emigrate after Uni than support such a society.

(Before anyone pounces, my Parents are seeing me through Uni, not the taxpayer).

[lostalex]

The culture of entitlement needs to end. Everyone needs to stop expecting they have a RIGHT to living the same way people that actually work for a living live. This is not the Soviet Union. Many countries have tried this idea that the government should provide everything for you, and it failed every time.

Look at the government.. if you trust the government to take care of you then yu are an idiot. The government is incompetant and wasteful and run by idiots. If you think living off the government is the answer, ask the people who used to live under communist Russia how well that works.

[Zippy]

Council homes are highly sought after by many needy people. Living in one and paying relatively low rent(or no rent in many cases) is a huge privilige. If members of your household are making the area unsafe, unkempt and intolerable for the decent residents then they need to be kicked out.

Yes, there may well be innocent members of that household...but there are many more innocent victims in the area who have to tolerate the crimes being committed. So tough shyt. Control your household and the members in it or get the fck out.

Truth is, some people are not fit to live in civilised company.