Is the Union Jack slowly becoming a symbol for racism/xenophobia?

[Scarlett.]

I used to like the Union Jack as a flag, but I've started to notice it's repeated use in Xenophobic quarters like the EDL and BNP, as well as in videos like this
zV2S2WFJqcA

Is the flag's message slowly changing?

[fruit_cake]

It's always been used by the BNP ever since I can remember I don't think it's a new thing

[Chuck]

From a foreigner's point of view, wearing clothes with the Union Flag on it means you like rock/indie/punk or you're a teen who thinks smoking, wearing skinny jeans and getting drunk almost everyday makes you look cool.

[Scarlett.]

From a foreigner's point of view, wearing clothes with the Union Flag on it means you like rock/indie/punk or you're a teen who thinks smoking, wearing skinny jeans and getting drunk almost everyday makes you look cool.

I wish the connotations of the flag were the same here, all I can think of when I see it is "BNP" :/ which is a shame as it's supposed to show the union of 4 different countries (England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland) rather than hatred of other nations.

[Pyramid*]

From a foreigner's point of view, wearing clothes with the Union Flag on it means you like rock/indie/punk or you're a teen who thinks smoking, wearing skinny jeans and getting drunk almost everyday makes you look cool.


Unfortunately, as a Brit myself: whilst I agree with the above: I do find it's the latter as well as the thuggish, racist type. Stereotypical view? Absolutely but unfortunately: that's often the case.

It's actually the one thing I hate seeing someone abroad wearing - clothes with their countries flag on it - the only exception being when they're a football game on and their supporting the team - but I loathe seeing them being worn as everyday clothing.

[arista]

I used to like the Union Jack as a flag, but I've started to notice it's repeated use in Xenophobic quarters like the EDL and BNP, as well as in videos like this


Is the flag's message slowly changing?





No thats just a way of getting your attention.


Our flag is not there Property.

[Livia]

The Union Flag is my national flag and I will not allow it to be hijacked by racists. I'd like to see it flown at every opportunity which I think would allow it to take it back from people like the BNP.

Something that gets me down a bit is the number of times I see the flag flown upside down. I'm sure people wouldn't be pleased if the Stars and Stripes was flown upside down, but hardly anyone notices when the Union Flag is upside down.

[Pyramid*]

No thats just a way of getting your attention.


Our flag is not there Property.

You're correct, it isn't their property. It's the correlation though that brings down all that the flag represents. It really hacks me off as these same ones are the very ones who drink, eat and cloth, and entertain themselves with products made from all over the world, by the very people they claim to loathe.

Their hypocrisy is surreal.

[arista]

I wish the connotations of the flag were the same here, all I can think of when I see it is "BNP" :/ which is a shame as it's supposed to show the union of 4 different countries (England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland) rather than hatred of other nations.



Thats Your Hang Up.

[Pyramid*]

The Union Flag is my national flag and I will not allow it to be hijacked by racists. I'd like to see it flown at every opportunity which I think would allow it to take it back from people like the BNP.

Something that gets me down a bit is the number of times I see the flag flown upside down. I'm sure people wouldn't be pleased if the Stars and Stripes was flown upside down, but hardly anyone notices when the Union Flag is upside down.

Good point - flying the flag should be more commonplace - as well as the point about it being flown upside down, with more than just a few not even being aware of it.

[InOne]

It seems to be a problem with the working class and inner city areas. I bet the people who live in the coutryside and the middle and upper classes don't give it a thought at all. Then again they probably don't read The Daily Mail...

[MTVN]

Yeah it does seem to be becoming mainly associated with far right groups tbh, but then that doesn't really surprise me because I think there's a fine line between Patriotism and Nationalism. I wouldn't say it's something unique to Britain either, I tend to associate the American flag with Tea Party and Right Wing types as well

[fruit_cake]

just like the BNP using the union jack, the Spanish flag is also seen by many Spaniards in the same way. The difference being that Franco actually won in Spain, and so his leanings are far more dangerous and not on the fringes of society like the BNP.

I think it's quite common for many countries national flags to be used by various interest groups for propanganda reasons.

[Pyramid*]

It seems to be a problem with the working class and inner city areas. I bet the people who live in the coutryside and the middle and upper classes don't give it a thought at all. Then again they probably don't read The Daily Mail...

Racism and bigotry isn't exclusive to the working class and inner city areas. If you believe it is, then you aren't as smart as I usually give you credit for.

[InOne]

Racism and bigotry isn't exclusive to the working class and inner city areas. If you believe it is, then you aren't as smart as I usually give you credit for.

Where did I mention racism and bigotry :conf:

That's not what I was on about

[Mystic Mock]

No its just that anybody that isnt in the BNP or EDL havent got the guts to put up the flag because they are scared of offending foreigners alot of the time,thats how it worked when I lived in Aston anyway.

[Pyramid*]

Where did I mention racism and bigotry :conf:

That's not what I was on about

Oh forgive me, I excluded the word Xenophobia....

Unless of course, none of that was what you were 'on about'.....

[InOne]

Oh forgive me, I excluded the word Xenophobia....

Unless of course, none of that was what you were 'on about'.....

Nope, you clearly didn't get what I meant :)

[Pyramid*]

Nope, you clearly didn't get what I meant :)


It seems to be a problem with the working class and inner city areas. I bet the people who live in the coutryside and the middle and upper classes don't give it a thought at all. Then again they probably don't read The Daily Mail...


There's your quote above.

Now if it wasn't regarding racism and xenophobia (which is what the thread is about, and the ignorant people who show it), then what are you on about.

[MTVN]

I'd imagine it was regarding the Union Jack actually, seeing as that is what the thread is about

[Marc]

Still looks like a few lines on a blue background to me :shrug:

[Mystic Mock]

Why do racists always look like agressive chavs?

[Pyramid*]

I'd imagine it was regarding the Union Jack actually, seeing as that is what the thread is about


Is the Union Jack slowly becoming a symbol for racism/xenophobia.


See the full title of the thread...

I'm quite sure InOne is able to answer more specifically what I asked.

[Pyramid*]

Still looks like a few lines on a blue background to me :shrug:

if you mean the flag and how it is flown (ie inverted)....



Correct
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/ae/Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg/220px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg)



Incorrect
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4c/Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom_reversed.svg/220px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom_reversed.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom_reversed.svg)

[InOne]

It's about how different classes portray the flag.

[Pyramid*]

It's about how different classes portray the flag.

Are you inferring that the higher up the social classes, that they fly flags only out of patriotism and that very few may indeed be many as equally guilty of being as racist/xenophic as those lower classes, who shout about it.


I don't believe that xenophobia is limited to social class - at all.

[InOne]

Are you inferring that the higher up the social classes, that they fly flags only out of patriotism and that very few may indeed be many as equally guilty of being as racist/xenophic as those lower classes, who shout about it.


I don't believe that xenophobia is limited to social class - at all.

There are racists in all walks of life. But I think people who don't live in multicultural areas probably more likely to be less racist, as they have not experienced it, and still live in a genereally British populated part of Britain.

[Pyramid*]

It seems to be a problem with the working class and inner city areas. I bet the people who live in the coutryside and the middle and upper classes don't give it a thought at all. Then again they probably don't read The Daily Mail...

Racism and bigotry isn't exclusive to the working class and inner city areas. If you believe it is, then you aren't as smart as I usually give you credit for.

Where did I mention racism and bigotry :conf:

That's not what I was on about

Oh forgive me, I excluded the word Xenophobia....

Unless of course, none of that was what you were 'on about'.....

Nope, you clearly didn't get what I meant :)

There's your quote above.

Now if it wasn't regarding racism and xenophobia (which is what the thread is about, and the ignorant people who show it), then what are you on about.

It's about how different classes portray the flag.

Are you inferring that the higher up the social classes, that they fly flags only out of patriotism and that very few may indeed be many as equally guilty of being as racist/xenophic as those lower classes, who shout about it.


I don't believe that xenophobia is limited to social class - at all.

There are racists in all walks of life. But I think people who don't live in multicultural areas probably more likely to be less racist, as they have not experienced it, and still live in a genereally British populated part of Britain.

You pulled me up earlier for mentioning racism in relation to your original comment in blue above, telling me that was not what you were on about.

Are you now are saying it is what you were on about - given your comment above?

[MTVN]

Oh God, Pyramid going crazy with the quotes again

[InOne]

Yeah I'm dizzy lol

[Pyramid*]

Oh God, Pyramid going crazy with the quotes again

I wouldn't need to if people actually stuck to what they said they meant.

Yeah I'm dizzy lol

Maybe stop twisting yourself in circles then.

[InOne]

You pulled me up earlier for mentioning racism in relation to your original comment in blue above, telling me that was not what you were on about.

Are you now are saying it is what you were on about - given your comment above?

You mentioned racism in your reply, that is why I mentioned it, we'd moved on from that little bit, you should keep up.

Now do you actually have a point or are you just going to keep try catching me out with wording? Because that does get rather boring indeed.

[Marc]

Oh God, Pyramid going crazy with the quotes again

:joker:

[Pyramid*]

You mentioned racism in your reply, that is why I mentioned it, we'd moved on from that little bit, you should keep up.

Now do you actually have a point or are you just going to keep try catching me out with wording? Because that does get rather boring indeed.

It's clear that you were refererring to racism and bigotry (despite making out as though you weren't).... - just clearing that little matter up.

[Pyramid*]

Oh God, Pyramid going crazy with the quotes again

:joker:

Love the way mods come into a serious debates thread - to make light of it. Kinda defeats the purpose of having a serious debate section of the forum, does it not.

[MTVN]

Love the way mods come into a serious debates thread - to make light of it. Kinda defeats the purpose of having a serious debate section of the forum, does it not.

Nope

[InOne]

It's clear that you were refererring to racism and bigotry (despite making out as though you weren't).... - just clearing that little matter up.

Wrong.

Next...

[SoBig]

if you mean the flag and how it is flown (ie inverted)....



Correct
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/ae/Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg/220px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg)



Incorrect
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4c/Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom_reversed.svg/220px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom_reversed.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom_reversed.svg)

You can hardly tell the difference.

[Pyramid*]

You can hardly tell the difference.

It's incredibly easy to tell the difference.

[MTVN]

You can hardly tell the difference.

I thought that too, sheer pedantry

[SoBig]

It's incredibly easy to tell the difference.
At first glance? No.

If you stare at it then, yeah.

[Pyramid*]

I thought that too, sheer pedantry

In your opinion MTVN.... anyone who knows anything about their country, should be able to tell when their country's flag is flown the right way or not. It's hardly rocket science.

[MTVN]

In your opinion MTVN.... anyone who knows anything about their country, should be able to tell when their country's flag is flown the right way or not. It's hardly rocket science.

I know plenty about my country thank you, and such knowledge is not determined by whether or not you think there a big difference in the appearance of the flag when it's upside down :rolleyes:

[spitfire]

No, The Union Flag is not becoming a symbol for racism/xenophobia.
What Flag would you expect The British National Party to use?
The Tories use it too.

[Scarlett.]

No, The Union Flag is not becoming a symbol for racism/xenophobia.
What Flag would you expect The British National Party to use?
The Tories use it too.

Nope, it's a tree
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42090000/jpg/_42090432_torylogo_bbc203.jpg

[Pyramid*]

I know plenty about my country thank you, and such knowledge is not determined by whether or not you think there a big difference in the appearance of the flag when it's upside down :rolleyes:

At least I know when the Union Jack is being flown correctly - and I know the reason for it, now that's pretty basic knowledge as far as I'm concerned. You may not agree, but I think being able to tell if your country's flag is hung the right way, is fundamental. :rolleyes:

[MTVN]

At least I know when the Union Jack is being flown correctly - and I know the reason for it, now that's pretty basic knowledge as far as I'm concerned. You may not agree, but I think being able to tell if your country's flag is hung the right way, is fundamental. :rolleyes:

Well woop de doo, there are far more important things to know about the UK

[spitfire]

Nope, it's a tree
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42090000/jpg/_42090432_torylogo_bbc203.jpg

http://www.conservatives.com/

[Pyramid*]

Well woop de doo, there are far more important things to know about the UK

Deary me. Weren't you inferring I was being pedantic only a few posts ago: and now you appear to be doing similar to what you accused me of .

I do believe there may be far more important things to know, but given that this is a thread debating and discussing the Union Jack (as you tried to point out to me earlier on remember), I'd say it was an important part of the discussion - rather than somewhat childish 'well, woop de doo' comment.

After all, it is meant to be a SERIOUS DEBATES thread MTVN.

[Livia]

There are racists in all walks of life. But I think people who don't live in multicultural areas probably more likely to be less racist, as they have not experienced it, and still live in a genereally British populated part of Britain.

That's not my experience. I come from a very ethnically mixed part of east London. While there were tensions at times, on the whole people were more accepting of each other and likely to have friends and colleagues from a variety of nationalities. Now I live in the countryside where it's almost exclusively white, and I have never heard such xenophobic bull**** in my life. Some of the outrageously racist comments I've heard people make with absolutely no shame at all have taken my breath away at times. I think those who don't mix with people of other ethnic backgrounds and have no experience of them see them as different, whereas people who mix with them all the time realise that we all bleed red.

[Scarlett.]

http://www.conservatives.com/

Never see that used in public though, heck even their Facebook uses the blue and green one.

[Liberty4eva]

I wish people wouldn't make big fusses about a piece of cloth. We have a society today where if someone owned a swastika it would be like a big deal but I wish people would just mellow out. BTW, I don't own a swastika in case anyone thinks I do.

[Livia]

I wish people wouldn't make big fusses about a piece of cloth. We have a society today where if someone owned a swastika it would be like a big deal but I wish people would just mellow out. BTW, I don't own a swastika in case anyone thinks I do.

I guess you have to understand what the piece of cloth in question stands for, and has stood for. I'm happy to live in a society where someone owning a swastika would be a big deal.

[Liberty4eva]

I guess you have to understand what the piece of cloth in question stands for, and has stood for. I'm happy to live in a society where someone owning a swastika would be a big deal.

I suppose it may also be a big deal if someone in the MiddleEast owned an Israeli or American flag (unless they got it just to burn it). Those flags to them may represent imperialism or genocide as well. In former UK colonies which still harbor some resentment it may be a big deal to own a UK flag. That's why I think it's so stupid how people make big deals out of pieces of cloth.

[MTVN]

I suppose it may also be a big deal if someone in the MiddleEast owned an Israeli or American flag (unless they got it just to burn it). Those flags to them may represent imperialism or genocide as well. In former UK colonies which still harbor some resentment it may be a big deal to own a UK flag. That's why I think it's so stupid how people make big deals out of pieces of cloth.

I think the difference is that the Swastika is more associated with an ideology and specifically Nazi Germany whereas the Union Jack doesn't necessarily stand for British Imperialism

[GypsyGoth]

I think of it as a symbol of multiculturalism before I associate it with the likes of the bnp & racists. However I think those tiny groups are very loud in the media.

[Livia]

I suppose it may also be a big deal if someone in the MiddleEast owned an Israeli or American flag (unless they got it just to burn it). Those flags to them may represent imperialism or genocide as well. In former UK colonies which still harbor some resentment it may be a big deal to own a UK flag. That's why I think it's so stupid how people make big deals out of pieces of cloth.

We're talking about flying the Union Flag in Great Britain, not in any other country. The British Empire was a long, long time ago and people have moved on, the vast majority of former Empire countries now belonging to the Commonwealth and for some, the Union Flag is a part of their own national flag. Mozambique was never part of the British Empire but sees the Commonwealth as being valuable and chooses to be a member. I would imagine there are a fair few Native Americans who resent the Stars and Stripes, yet in the USA people are proud of their flag, they fly it frequently and no one weeps and wails about attrocities that the USA may have committed generations ago.

The Swastika is something different. It's origins are Indian, and you do see it in some Indian designs, but there's nothing wrong with that. People who own a swastica belonging to the Third Reich do it because they are nazis or nazi sympathisers.

[letmein]

I guess you have to understand what the piece of cloth in question stands for, and has stood for. I'm happy to live in a society where someone owning a swastika would be a big deal.
You're happy to live in a Nanny State where everyone else tells you what opinion is and isn't acceptable. You're the mind police.

[Scarlett.]

You're happy to live in a Nanny State where everyone else tells you what opinion is and isn't acceptable. You're the mind police.

Well I don't think people need to be told that supporting the people who brought about the mass extermination of Jews in World War II isnt acceptable, it's just one of those things that make sense.

[Grimnir]

patriotism and racism are two cheeks of the same arse

[Livia]

You're happy to live in a Nanny State where everyone else tells you what opinion is and isn't acceptable. You're the mind police.

As many of my family were wiped out in WW2 by people wearing swastikas, I'd say yes, I'm very happy to live here.

There isn't a country in the world that loves their flag more than the good ol' US of A. The way some Americans go at it I imagine some of them think Team America, World Police was a documentary.

[Pyramid*]

You're happy to live in a Nanny State where everyone else tells you what opinion is and isn't acceptable. You're the mind police.

Makes me wonder what country you live in, because the way you are portraying it: your country has no laws I suppose then and those who live there must clearly just run riot.

nah...I'd prefer to live in a land where there is a semblence of law and order. I'll stick to the UK and accept that we do at least have laws that deal with reprobates accordingly.

[Pyramid*]

As many of my family were wiped out in WW2 by people wearing swastikas, I'd say yes, I'm very happy to live here.

There isn't a country in the world that loves their flag more than the good ol' US of A. The way some Americans go at it I imagine some of them think Team America, World Police was a documentary.

What do you mean..... are you saying they weren't for real??? I thought some of it was hilariously true to form.