Dundee teenagers locked up for Facebook riot threats

[Omah]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-16144640

Two teenagers who used Facebook to try to start a riot in a Scottish city have been locked up for three years each.

Shawn Divin, 16, and Jordan McGinley, 18, were administrators of a Facebook page called "Riot in the toon" which urged people to "kill some daftys".

The Dundee riot page was published during the summer's unrest in England.

Divin, who was described as an inmate at Polmont youth offenders institute, and McGinley, from Dundee, had earlier pleaded guilty to breaching the peace.

Sheriff Elizabeth Munro sentenced Divin to a total of four years and three months, which included one year for breaching a previous probation order and three months for breaching his bail by inciting riots.

Dundee Sheriff Court heard that the Facebook page encouraged others to smash up buildings, loot shops and attack police officers at the time of the riots which swept several English cities in August.

The sentence seems harsh considering that they'd pleaded guilty to a crime in which no damage was done - what if the "riot" had taken place - would they have got life sentences ?

:conf:

[Ramsay]

I remember some other guys getting the same sentance a few months ago for the same reason
Bit over the top yeah they should just get fined or something

[Scarlett.]

They'll be out in a year, since they already will have served sometime and will probably be out on good behavior.

[Niamh.]

I suppose they need to come down hard on things like this, It so easy for people to organize **** like this on facebook so they need to be discouraged from doing it by harsh sentencing.

[Jack_]

I'm glad they're doing this, if only they implemented such a 'no tolerance' kind of scheme across the board of crimes then things may start to move forward in the right direction with regards to crime levels.

[MTVN]

It's ridiculous, and quite scary really that you can be locked up for years for creating a Facebook page. They did the same to a couple of guys who also made a Facebook event for a riot which never even took place, and that nobody showed up to, I'm not sure if anything actually happened here? Either way it's quite draconian IMO, and judges often hand out a lot more lenient sentences than they did here and for much worse crimes than making an event page on Facebook

[Pyramid*]

Good enough for them and glad it wasn't some pathetic community service and a rap on the knuckles.

Quite a few other Judges could take a leaf out of this sentencing Judge's book.

If anyone thinks it's too harsh: go have a look at the Manchester riots, those hurt and the millions of pounds worth of damaged caused - not just to buildings, but for some: their livliehoods were destroyed.

[Pyramid*]

It's ridiculous, and quite scary really that you can be locked up for years for creating a Facebook page. They did the same to a couple of guys who also made a Facebook event for a riot which never even took place, and that nobody showed up to, I'm not sure if anything actually happened here? Either way it's quite draconian IMO, and judges often hand out a lot more lenient sentences than they did here and for much worse crimes than making an event page on Facebook

They didn't get locked up for creating a Facebook page or making an event.

They got locked up for creating a facebook page which was designed only for one purpose: to trying to incite riots, to smash up buildings, loot shops and attack police officers . Not quite as innocent sounding when you put it into context.

[MTVN]

Good enough for them and glad it wasn't some pathetic community service and a rap on the knuckles.

Quite a few other Judges could take a leaf out of this sentencing Judge's book.

If anyone thinks it's too harsh: go have a look at the Manchester riots, those hurt and the millions of pounds worth of damaged caused - not just to buildings, but for some: their livliehoods were destroyed.

That's such a bad basis for a justice system. It's like giving someone 10 years just for speeding because somebody else who was speeding crashed their car and killed somebody

[arista]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-16144640



The sentence seems harsh considering that they'd pleaded guilty to a crime in which no damage was done - what if the "riot" had taken place - would they have got life sentences ?

:conf:



Harsh?

Its about setting a Example like we did

[InOne]

Take them out to the moors and shoot them.

[arista]

They didn't get locked up for creating a Facebook page or making an event.

They got locked up for creating a facebook page which was designed only for one purpose: to trying to incite riots, to smash up buildings, loot shops and attack police officers . Not quite as innocent sounding when you put it into context.


Yes Great Point

[Jack_]

That's such a bad basis for a justice system. It's like giving someone 10 years just for speeding because somebody else who was speeding crashed their car and killed somebody

Not saying things should ever go that far, but you know if that ever were to happen at least we might be living in a far safer world than we are now. People might actually learn to stop speeding then instead of us all being guilty of doing it, just trying to avoid being caught for it.

[Omah]

If anyone thinks it's too harsh: go have a look at the Manchester riots, those hurt and the millions of pounds worth of damaged caused - not just to buildings, but for some: their livliehoods were destroyed.

But the Dundee two caused NO DAMAGE .....

[Niamh.]

That's such a bad basis for a justice system. It's like giving someone 10 years just for speeding because somebody else who was speeding crashed their car and killed somebody

No it's not at all. The intent here was to actually start a riot. A person speeding doesn't go out with the intent to kill someone.

[Pyramid*]

That's such a bad basis for a justice system. It's like giving someone 10 years just for speeding because somebody else who was speeding crashed their car and killed somebody


It is nothing of the sort, and I suspect you know that all too well.

It's spot on, given that it was when the riots were spreading and starting up in other parts of the UK.

[Pyramid*]

But the Dundee two caused NO DAMAGE .....

I'll let you read my further comment a few posts back for further details.

[MTVN]

No it's not at all. The intent here was to actually start a riot. A person speeding doesn't go out with the intent to kill someone.

But you still going out knowing the potential consequences of speeding and that it's going to be dangerous.. I see your point but I still don't think it's right to give someone a sentence like this on the basis of what could have happened, at the end of the day they were two idiots just being stupid on Facebook, they say it was only as a joke and considering there was stuff like "let's show the English how it's done" it wouldn't surprise me if it was. Nothing even happened as a result of this, and 3 years? That's the kind of sentence that drug dealers get, that rapists sometimes get, it's the kind of sentence that is given for assault or a knife attack, crimes that do actually have serious consequences

[Jack_]

But the Dundee two caused NO DAMAGE .....

And? If someone came up to me in the street and threatened to stab my heart out I'd want them imprisoned for my own personal safety, the same thing applies here except instead of protecting an individual, the idea is to protect an entire area. Why leave things under the pretense that 'oh, it hasn't happened yet so we won't bother', for it then to possibly happen and for it to be too late? Why not prevent those chances of anything happening early?

[Niamh.]

But you still going out knowing the potential consequences of speeding and that it's going to be dangerous.. I see your point but I still don't think it's right to give someone a sentence like this on the basis of what could have happened, at the end of the day they were two idiots just being stupid on Facebook, they say it was only as a joke and considering there was stuff like "let's show the English how it's done" it wouldn't surprise me if it was. Nothing even happened as a result of this, and 3 years? That's the kind of sentence that drug dealers get, that rapists sometimes get, it's the kind of sentence that is given for assault or a knife attack, crimes that do actually have serious consequences

Well, tbh I think that those crimes you've listed, especially the violent ones, should have even higher sentences, but that's for another day!

As for the what could have happened bit, I don't really see it as that, what I see it as is people actively trying to organize another mob of vandals and robbers, during a time when it was rampant across Britain.

[MTVN]

And? If someone came up to me in the street and threatened to stab my heart out I'd want them imprisoned for my own personal safety, the same thing applies here except instead of protecting an individual, the idea is to protect an entire area. Why leave things under the pretense that 'oh, it hasn't happened yet so we won't bother', for it then to possibly happen and for it to be too late? Why not prevent those chances of anything happening early?

But would you expect them to get the same sentence as someone who did actually stab you in the heart?

The lines are being blurred here between potential crimes, and actual crimes, they're not the same thing, you can't create some kind of equivalency between creating a facebook page for a riot and actually causing one, actually causing serious damage, actually causing arson, actually causing theft etc. etc.

[Pyramid*]

But you still going out knowing the potential consequences of speeding and that it's going to be dangerous.. I see your point but I still don't think it's right to give someone a sentence like this on the basis of what could have happened, at the end of the day they were two idiots just being stupid on Facebook, they say it was only as a joke and considering there was stuff like "let's show the English how it's done" it wouldn't surprise me if it was. Nothing even happened as a result of this, and 3 years? That's the kind of sentence that drug dealers get, that rapists sometimes get, it's the kind of sentence that is given for assault or a knife attack, crimes that do actually have serious consequences


Really? You think so?

I'll put you in touch at least 2 drug dealers who got 18 years here in Scotland....... perhaps the English justice system is simply too soft.

so in your mind, if someone started a FB page for no other reason than to incite (for example) let's select fanatical types who loathe the western way, to go burn down chapels, churches, bomb bars and pubs, to attack the Police Officers who help uphold our Laws and put their lives at risk to protect us, you think that that's okay to do, and it's not a problem, nor is it likely to be one?

[MTVN]

Well, tbh I think that those crimes you've listed, especially the violent ones, should have even higher sentences, but that's for another day!

As for the what could have happened bit, I don't really see it as that, what I see it as is people actively trying to organize another mob of vandals and robbers, during a time when it was rampant across Britain.

Fair enough, maybe I'm just too liberal :p

Really? You think so?

I'll put you in touch at least 2 drug dealers who got 18 years here in Scotland....... perhaps the English justice system is simply too soft.

so in your mind, if someone started a FB page for no other reason than to incite (for example) let's select fanatical types who loathe the western way, to go burn down chapels, churches, bomb bars and pubs, to attack the Police Officers who help uphold our Laws and put their lives at risk to protect us, you think that that's okay to do, and it's not a problem, nor is it likely to be one?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/tough-riot-sentences-prompt-new-guidelines-for-the-courts-2339699.html

This is comparing some of the sentences given to rioters to sentences given to non rioters, I know it's 4 years but others who commited the same crime as these did get 4

Riots

Jordan Blackshaw, 21, from Marston, and Perry Sutcliffe-Keenan, 22, from Warrington, were each jailed for four years at Chester Crown Court on Tuesday after setting up Facebook pages encouraging a riot in Northwich. Although the police were the only ones who arrived at the proposed rendezvous, the pair were both arrested.

Non-riots

Tesfaye Bramble, the brother of footballer Titus, was jailed for four and a half years on 5 August for the rape of a 19-year-old who told the court: "I cried like I've never cried in my life."

Rajinder Dutt, 31, was jailed for four years for supplying heroin in November 2008. Dutt, from Leicester, was part of a £10m operation which brought Class-A drugs with a value of £1.3m into Gloucestershire.

There's a huge drug dealing operation right there that only got 4 years

And like I said in my reply to Jack, I think it's blurring the lines between potential crimes and actual crimes

[Jack_]

But would you expect them to get the same sentence as someone who did actually stab you in the heart?

The lines are being blurred here between potential crimes, and actual crimes, they're not the same thing, you can't create some kind of equivalency between creating a facebook page for a riot and actually causing one, actually causing serious damage, actually causing arson, actually causing theft etc. etc.

No, but as Niamh touched on the sentences for those that do commit those sorts of crimes are already too short, so they should be extended and those threatening these sorts of crimes should be given these sort of sentences.

I wouldn't expect them [or want them, for that matter], to be given the same sentence as someone who did commit that particular crime, however I would want them to be given a lengthy sentence not only for my personal safety, but also to teach them that even making threats regarding things like that won't be tolerated, just as it shouldn't be.

[Pyramid*]

Fair enough, maybe I'm just too liberal :p



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/tough-riot-sentences-prompt-new-guidelines-for-the-courts-2339699.html

This is comparing some of the sentences given to rioters to sentences given to non rioters, I know it's 4 years but others who commited the same crime as these did get 4


There's a huge drug dealing operation right there that only got 4 years

And like I said in my reply to Jack, I think it's blurring the lines between potential crimes and actual crimes

Perhaps the English judicial system might want to look to the Scottish side: seeing as they do seem to give out very lenient sentences in comparison.

I think the point you may be missing is: it is less to do with 'nothing actually happened' but more to do with putting over the message, "Don't even think about doing this, or you'll pay dearly for it".

[Pyramid*]

I'm not getting a good feeling about this one........... :bawling:

[MTVN]

I'm not getting a good feeling about this one........... :bawling:

This what? :conf2:

[Mystic Mock]

Good as we didnt want a sequel to the riots.

[Omah]

And? If someone came up to me in the street and threatened to stab my heart out I'd want them imprisoned for my own personal safety, the same thing applies here except instead of protecting an individual, the idea is to protect an entire area. Why leave things under the pretense that 'oh, it hasn't happened yet so we won't bother', for it then to possibly happen and for it to be too late? Why not prevent those chances of anything happening early?

I'll let you read my further comment a few posts back for further details.

The post below sums up my opinion :

But would you expect them to get the same sentence as someone who did actually stab you in the heart?

The lines are being blurred here between potential crimes, and actual crimes, they're not the same thing, you can't create some kind of equivalency between creating a facebook page for a riot and actually causing one, actually causing serious damage, actually causing arson, actually causing theft etc. etc.

Exactly ..... :thumbs:

[Mystic Mock]

So MTVN and Omah,would you wait until its to late like the last time the riots happened? I agree with the new approach and that is stopping them before they get to powerful.

I also will add that if it was Al Qaeda that had threatened to cause trouble somewhere in this country you would not be saying that was harsh that they got sentenced even though they didnt do it.

[Pyramid*]

The post below sums up my opinion :




Good for you. They don't sum up mine. :thumbs:

Prevention is better than cure.

[MTVN]

So MTVN and Omah,would you wait until its to late like the last time the riots happened? I agree with the new approach and that is stopping them before they get to powerful.

I also will add that if it was Al Qaeda that had threatened to cause trouble somewhere in this country you would not be saying that was harsh that they got sentenced even though they didnt do it.

Since when was it a choice between letting riots go ahead or giving them 3 years in jail? No I would have them given what I consider to be a fairer punishment

[Pyramid*]

So MTVN and Omah,would you wait until its to late like the last time the riots happened? I agree with the new approach and that is stopping them before they get to powerful.

I also will add that if it was Al Qaeda that had threatened to cause trouble somewhere in this country you would not be saying that was harsh that they got sentenced even though they didnt do it.

Let's use another example.

Say riots would have taken place on the back of these idiots trying to get it all kicking off up in Scotland........ I bet my house that both Omah and MTVN would be the first ones to say, "They knew they were going to do it, the Police should have acted, they had the info there, rather than let it happen".

If that would had happened, no doubt both of you would have found fault with that also. :idc:

[MTVN]

Let's use another example.

Say riots would have taken place on the back of these idiots trying to get it all kicking off up in Scotland........ I bet my house that both Omah and MTVN would be the first ones to say, "They knew they were going to do it, the Police should have acted, they had the info there, rather than let it happen".

If that would had happened, no doubt both of you would have found fault with that also. :idc:

This is stupid, whatever the sentence was the police arrested them and nothing happened, the fact that no riots took place in Dundee is completely irrelevant to the severity of their sentence which was only given today

[Omah]

So MTVN and Omah,would you wait until its to late like the last time the riots happened? I agree with the new approach and that is stopping them before they get to powerful.

Banging up a couple of kids for Facebook entries is not going to stop riot and insurrection - there are other means of communication and organisation ..... ;)

I also will add that if it was Al Qaeda that had threatened to cause trouble somewhere in this country you would not be saying that was harsh that they got sentenced even though they didnt do it.

Does Al Qaeda use Facebook to arrange meetings ..... ?

[Pyramid*]

This what? :conf2:

I'll let you know when (if) it happens. I'll tip you the nod. ;)

[Omah]

Good for you. They don't sum up mine. :thumbs:

Prevention is better than cure.

Prevention of this non-event cured nothing - it just created a couple of career-criminals ..... :sad:

[Pyramid*]

This is stupid, whatever the sentence was the police arrested them and nothing happened, the fact that no riots took place in Dundee is completely irrelevant to the severity of their sentence which was only given today

It's far from stupid.

I see you are completely avoiding the "Prevention is better than cure" and the fact that these idiots will be used as an example ....... to avoid nutjobs from trying to pull off a stunt like this in the future - a stunt which may actually cause mayhem as was the intention with these idiots.

[Mystic Mock]

Banging up a couple of kids for Facebook entries is not going to stop riot and insurrection - there are other means of communication and organisation ..... ;)



Does Al Qaeda use Facebook to arrange meetings ..... ?

1. The only way you will get these scum to learn right from wrong is by giving them harsh sentences,although I would give higher if the worser crimes was sentenced higher aswell.

2. I was giving an example (yes a bit of an extreme example) but an example none of the less and I still think if it happened and they got caught you know people would be praising the Governments and the Police.

[MTVN]

I'll let you know when (if) it happens. I'll tip you the nod. ;)

Don't talk in riddles, what did you mean with your other post :suspect:

[Pyramid*]

Prevention of this non-event cured nothing - it just created a couple of career-criminals ..... :sad:

The sentence they have been given will have given out a message to other reprobates not to try to pull a stunt like this...... in an effort to prevent such a FB campaign from recurring again. ;)

[MTVN]

It's far from stupid.

I see you are completely avoiding the "Prevention is better than cure" and the fact that these idiots will be used as an example ....... to avoid nutjobs from trying to pull off a stunt like this in the future - a stunt which may actually cause mayhem as was the intention with these idiots.

I hate "making an example" of people, with that reasoning you're chucking them under a bus purely to uphold some principle and to make a point. You might consider it effective but that doesn't make it just.

[Pyramid*]

I hate "making an example" of people, with that reasoning you're chucking them under a bus purely to uphold some principle and to make a point. You might consider it effective but that doesn't make it just.


Hell mend them then - they should have thought of that before they thought it would be an amusing thing to do. They're laughing at the other side of the face now. I doubt they will do the same thing again......if the lesson taught has to be a hard one, so be it.

They were banged up for 3 years, they'll be out this time next year - hardly being chucked under a bus.

[Omah]

The sentence they have been given will have given out a message to other reprobates not to try to pull a stunt like this......

No, it won't - it will have just given out a message that stupid teenagers will get banged up with hairy-assed neanderthals ..... :eek:

in an effort to prevent such a FB campaign from recurring again. ;)

There was NO "campaign" ..... :nono:

[Pyramid*]

No, it won't - it will have just given out a message that stupid teenagers will get banged up with hairy-assed neanderthals ..... :eek:



There was NO "campaign" ..... :nono:

Good....that will make them think twice about doing it again.





Well it certainly wasn't a friendly invite over to their place for Wine and Cheese. :nono:

[Omah]

Well it certainly wasn't a friendly invite over to their place for Wine and Cheese. :nono:

Very true - there was no mention of deep-fried Mars Bars and Buckfast, either ...... :shrug:

:joker:

[Bollo]

There is a guy fairly near to where we are (southampton)going on trial for similar in Feb.
I remember at the time that a lot of people who where working in offices/ shops in southampton went home early and shut up shop because the police took these facebook pages seriuosly, and a lot of people were worried sick.

In my opinion these people deserve all they get

[Pyramid*]

Very true - there was no mention of deep-fried Mars Bars and Buckfast, either ...... :shrug:

:joker:


See..... pair of selfish gits into the bargain. Increase their sentence to 5 years !

:D

[Niall]

Harsh but I suppose its to set an example for anyone contemplating the same thing.