Was Paul right to call Josh deceitful, when it comes to Josh's Sexuality?

[bonzobravo]

Was Paul right to call Josh deceitful, when it comes to Josh's Sexuality?

Paul often spoke about issues, in which he had no idea what he was talking about! He unintentionally really pi**ed off when he accused Josh of being deceitful when it comes to his sexuality. I forgot about this until it came up in another post. I don't particularly like or dislike Josh it has to be said, but when Paul accused him of being deceitful about his sexuality, I thought:

Why do you care about his sexuality? It is irrelevant,
Who are we to judge if he is gay, straight or bi?
Only he knows the answer and the fact that he slept with a woman does not matter.

My honest PERSONAL opinion is every person in the world is born bi-sexual, but society puts pressure on us to behave a certain way, and 'conform'. A lot of people feel you have to be straight or gay. Why label people? Do we not fancy individuals and not a gender?

Do you realise the stick gay men give men who are bi-sexual, they say they are in denial. Bi-sexual people are not accepted in general by both straight and gay people.

I consider myself bi-sexual (although I don't like to label myself) yet I often tell gay people that I am gay, because I often get hassle for being bi-sexual. And most straight people think I am straight, apart from close friends and close family, So that would put me in the same category of Josh

Does that make me deceitful? Or just some one who wants an easy life.

I don't want to sound ars*y, but technically speaking Josh may have been deceitful, but in life were people have prejudices, you have to be deceitful sometimes. If I am honest I believe everyone is bi-sexual including Josh. But I would imagine he goes out on the 'gay scene' a lot, so if he goes on national TV and says I am bi-sexual he would have got a lot of stick for it.

Even the 'gay' media frowns upon bi-sexuals to a certain degree. I seem to remember Adele remarking on this too. A lot of people think you have to be one or another. I personally like 'individuals' some happen to be men some women. I don't broadcast everywhere I am bi-sexual, why do people need to know if Paul had spoke to me like that I would have just walked away.

I don't dislike Paul, but he just has no idea how complex and difficult it was for Josh in there. You can't speak frankly about issues like that in the BB house.

Paul continuously would talk about things in which he didn't understand, and that's why some people perceive him as thick, and why he got so many nominations. He never did this intentionally, which is why I don't dislike him.

[bonzobravo]

I voted for it was none of his business!!!!!

[Romantic Old Bird]

I'm not voting bonzo, because I think Paul wasn't intending to comment at all about his sexuality.

He was commenting on whether or not Josh had misled or hurt his own family (I think). Paul didn't understand the whole orientation/ confusion thing that bisexual people must go through, but didn't have the nouse to just keep it to himself. He didn't mean any harm, and it's a shame really, because he liked Josh, and until then they got on well.

The one reason it really came up though, IMHO was jealousy. Paul was feeling very protective/possessive towards Helen, and the bath night thing really niggled at him.

What everybody seems to overlook when criticising Paul on this (and even I wish he'd just kept quiet) is that it was Bubble that brought the whole thing up and was VERY forceful about his opinion that Josh and Brian shouldn't be walking in an out freely when the girls were naked. I don't think it would ever have been an issue with Brian, but Josh was a different matter.

Bubble was very strong in his opinion about this and Paul agreed that he thought they had got away with a great deal.

When Bubble left, I saw on live feed that it was Elizabeth who on at least two occasions brought the subject up again with Paul, completely out of the blue. She knew his attitude was an achilles heel, and I think she was eager to expose it.

And, it was certainly Elizabeth whojust before the infamous set to with Josh, said loudly and theatrically,

"Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot, you're not really gay are you Josh?"

Helen went all coy and said

"Josh, if I find out when I get out of here that you are not really gay, I would be disgusted". She was laughing when she said it, and not at all upset, but Paul was set off by it.

He doesn't understand, that's all. I don't either to be honest, but I'm open minded, and I have enough sense (apart from on here!) to just let people get on with whatever makes them happy. As long as no-one gets hurt. And I think THAT is the issue that the often rather lacking in eloquence Mr Clarke was trying to get across.

I forgive him. He made himself look a bit of a prat, but meant no harm, BHLCS.

As Helen said at the time and constantly since, "he's the nicest boy I know. There isn't a nasty bone in his body."

[peachy]

ROB as usual you've explained it fairly and that was exactly how it happened but it was yet another example of Channel4's editing. If you hadn't seen the whole episode on E4 you would certainly get the impression that Paul was, at worst homophobic, and at best crass and illogical about people's sexuality.

I think he was just under terrible pressure and didn't really know how to cope. Remember by then he had survived four nominations on the trot and was anxious and upset by this (although he hid this very well outside of the diaryroom, a lot better than Jonny did by the way) as well as having to cope with his confused feelings about Helen. I'd like to see anyone on this board be coherent about anything after seven weeks of being under that sort of pressure.

[Princess Pink Pants]

Did Josh admit he'd slept with women as well before or after he'd been in the bathroom when the girls were all naked?

If it was after, thats a bit cheeky!

[queenie]

Those comments had nothing at all to do with Paul's or anyone else's perceptions of homosexuality, and everything to do with Paul being in a complete state of confusion and jealousy about Helen. Helen had a very flirty relationship with Josh, which she hadn't really had with anyone else, and Paul got totally worked up about it.
What made it worse is that Josh came across as very sexual (whether the sexuality was hetero or homo is irrelevant) and so threatening to the other men. Brian found Josh just as threatening as Paul did, but obviously in a very different way...

[Ig]

Originally posted by Romantic old bird
When Bubble left, I saw on live feed that it was Elizabeth who on at least two occasions brought the subject up again with Paul, completely out of the blue. She knew his attitude was an achilles heel, and I think she was eager to expose it.



Absolutely spot on, ROB!
She is, was, and always will be A SNAKE!

[susieq]

To put it in it's most basic terms, I think the perception of most people is that 'gay' people fancy people of their own sex, 'straight' people fancy people of the opposite sex and 'bi' people fancy both!

So when Josh, who'd previously told people he was gay, then said he'd slept with a woman this was very confusing. Paul was trying to make sense of it; this was not his understanding of how a 'gay' person acted. Coupled with his growing feelings for Helen, his feelings of jealousy etc, etc, it caused him great problems. Again, it wasn't the matter of Josh's sexuality (or anyone elses for that matter) it was the emotions that this new information caused him. From previously not seeing Josh as a 'threat' when he (Josh) and Helen had been flirting, he now felt as though he'd been deceived and he didn't know how to cope.

Of course, Elizabeth stirring the pot every two minutes didn't help either - she was a nasty little minx and loved to cause trouble. She enjoyed Paul's discomfiture and made no bones about continuing to unsettle him.

Does that make me deceitful? Or just some one who wants an easy life.

I would turn that around and say "If I want an easy life, I sometimes need to be deceitful".

You're right, both gay and straight people have a lot of issues about bi-sexual people, and it is indeed sad that bi's sometimes have to hide who they really are because of people's ignorance and intolerance. It would be a great world if people could just be people irrespective of race, colour, creed, ability, or sexuality - a Utopian ideal I'm sure you agree, but if individuals hide their 'true' identities is this not perpetuating the ignorance? I don't know the answer.

[steve_o]

I'd have problably have said and the done the same as Paul, you couldnt blame the guy at the time, I mean Josh was coming across as somewhat horny :shocked: I mean there was that time when without going into to much detail, he was ha em you know with Narrinder, simulated, and that was probabley just a small clip we saw on the uncut vid. I mean it did look more bi than gay. I can't say I blame Paul for going off on one. It was just a confusing situation in that house at the time.

:spin:

[finch]

I think it's all about different views on the labels that are used which is were this problem arised

[bonzobravo]

Susieq, you are quite write when you said the following:


I would turn that around and say "If I want an easy life, I sometimes need to be deceitful".

You're right, both gay and straight people have a lot of issues about bi-sexual people, and it is indeed sad that bi's sometimes have to hide who they really are because of people's ignorance and intolerance. It would be a great world if people could just be people irrespective of race, colour, creed, ability, or sexuality - a Utopian ideal I'm sure you agree, but if individuals hide their 'true' identities is this not perpetuating the ignorance? I don't know the answer.



This is true, but I know some 'gay' people who I occasionally socialise with, would have had a problem with me If I said I was bi-sexual. In conversations I have heard them speaking passionately about bi-sexuals being in denial etc, they want the best of both worlds.

Maybe I am a coward, but as someone who only in the past 6 months told my family I was bi-sexual, and some of my family only tolerate me now. I don't need the grief of being 'open' with everyone. Maybe when I am older and wiser, and in a 'stable' relationship. Maybe then I could be more open.

Revealing your sexuality, to just family and friends is daunting, but 6 million! Everyone knows that gay people are accepted in general, more then bi-sexuals. So Josh may too have opted for the easy life.

I still maintain, in the environment Paul and Josh were in, Paul should have kept his mouth shut! And I repeat why care if someone is being truthful about their sexuality?, don't project your problems on to someone else!

[Romantic Old Bird]

You know what? I think we have all discussed this particular topic to the stage where we can respect each others views and maybe agree to disagree on some points.

We will individually never understand entirely how another person feels in any given situation.

BB was an extraordinary situation, and I think any one of us might have behaved differently. It is interesting to discuss, but I think beyond a certain point we can get a little too intense.


Hows about leaving it there? :thumbs:

:flower: :flower: :flower:

[Ig]

Not sure I agree there, ROB. I've found this thread fascinating and I love the subjects Bonzobravo has brought up. I wasn't that interested in BB3, so while I read all the threads I can't get myself involved enough to post in them.

If the discussions in these forums get a little intense occasionally, so what? As long as no one is offensive I don't see any problem in raking up the past. It says a lot for last year's housemates that they can still arouse such intense feelings, and it's a real tonic to me to be able to discuss them again.

I thought we all WERE agreeing to disagree and respect each others opinions ... :conf:

Thank you Bonzobravo :thumbs:

[BusyBee]

At the risk of carrying this thread on too long, I think we have all got to realise that at the time Paul had his outburst with Josh he was under a hell of a lot of stress. I remember reading somewhere that BB were so worried about him that they made him see a psychologist. He had had four straight weeks of being up for nomination knowing that apart from Helen he was disliked by everyone in the house. You only have to remember the aftermath of Bubble's eviction it was like he was a pariah.

He had gone into the house to have fun OK he was a bit of a lad and liked to play the field, but I dont think he was prepared for what happened in that house. There he was falling for a girl who already had a boyfriend, feeling guilty about the possibility of breaking them up and how family and friends would perceive what was inevitably happening and also knowing that the others in the house knew she had a boyfriend. All this stress just simply added up.

He was feeling very protective towards the girls and one girl in particular and I think, without wishing to upset anyone, that he felt rightly or wrongly they would act differently around someone who was bi-sexual to one who was gay. He didnt want to see anyone hurt.

I feel that a row could have happened with anyone at that time - Josh just happened to be there at the time - he was so strung up. Elizabeth knew this and just wound him up until he let rip. I thought she was really malicious then. As Paul has said he often says things without thinking and I think this was one of those incidents.

As Helen has said he is the nicest, most honest and genuine person and it was a shame that no-one else in the house had the chance to get to know him properly. Who knows what would have happened if he hadnt been nominated so often. Remember Jonny saying after his nominations that he wanted to shake Paul's hand because of how he coped with all the nominations.

End of sermon.

[bonzobravo]

Yeah, fair play to Paul he coped well in the house when you consider the following

Number of times up for eviction
Most of the housemates were irritated by him (and me)
The stress of how his relationship with Helen would be perceived.
Having to control his feeling for Helen
The fact he had fresh air were his brain should have been!

We have all agreed to disagree, but I have enjoyed reading everyones opinions on this subject.

I am left baffled as to why Paul is so popular.

And being under pressure, is no excuse for constantly putting your foot in it

Paul was nice but dim!

[Romantic Old Bird]

I wasn't trying to censor anyone Ig!

I just thought maybe we were going round in circles. We have talked about it often in the past and it has usually ended in :bawling: .

I think Paul was under masses of stress and handled himself generally very well, not unburdening himself in lots of 'poor me' outpourings to his fellow housemates. I would hazard a guess that he has been brought up to 'be a man', and he was trying to be fair minded.

He constantly talked about being a member of a team. He saw himself as one part of the whole, and in his exit interview he said he kept himself together for the sake of the team. I know the sort of chap he is, because I recognise the psychology from very close to home.

He is 'closed in' to all except the peole he loves and feels safe with. The persona he projected: eg fun-loving lad, was just a part of himself he kept for his mates, and going out and about. It's not deceitful, it's learnt behaviour, and a defence mechanism. He is insecure and he knows being a laugh makes him one of the crowd. He did have lots of devoted friends at all his potential evictions, some travelling each week from Germany, and he is obviously very well liked in his own circle.

If you cast your mind back to the 'life changing experiences' talk he had in the house, you will remember that he said he was mercilessly teased and bullied because of his ears, until he had them pinned back at 16 or 17. That means he will have learned to act the fool to survive.

Here he was, back in a situation where he knew he was being excluded. As Dean said in defence of Paul in week 9 to Brian. Paul was in a difficult position, from the beginning of week 3. He didn't know who he was being nominated by, so he couldn't form any relationships. He closed up.

People who keep themselves under that sort of control eventually do let the mask slip of course, and as Busy Bee has pointed out, and I have also said - Elizabeth just didn't like Paul. She wanted him out, so she observed him, picked her opportunities, wound him up and set him off.

The reason I am confident about my summation of his character is that I recognise it very well.

Josh almost incidental in this. It's just that Elizabeth picked up on his Paul's discomfiture and honed in on it. Bubble was the one who was most put out by it but he was liked by Elizabeth, and he was out a couple of days later.

Paul never instigated an unprovoked verbal affront. Amma was appallingly rude to him over a period of time before he tried (not very well, I admit) to defend himself.

I actually feel that the mockery which surrounded Paul, the muttering behind his back, the Narinder face pulling, etc was classic bullying. Sociometric analysis (Moreno, 1934) identified exactly the behaviour we saw in the house. Moreno called it scapegoating. I felt they were unkind to him and post Bubble they were downright cruel.

He wasn't very good at arguing his corner, and lacked the vocabulary, eloquence and confidence to carry it off. They knew that and exploited it.

The reason Bonzo, that I liked Paul so much was that despite this in general terms he was incredibly affable to everyone. Whenever he did have an issue about someone, we all knew about it and so did they.

He was a gentleman, he wasn't playing to the camera's and he was very sweet.

And, he also looked bloody marvellous in light blue boxer shorts!

See, now, don't you wish I'd just shut up?

:spin2:

[bonzobravo]

ROB, I get the message, you are rather fond of Mr Clarke.

And without wanting to antagonize you. I suspect in your case, the reason is simple:

YOU JUST FANCY THE PANTS OFF HIM!

[Romantic Old Bird]

No, I really like him as well. And I'm old enough to be his mum! :blush:

Oh, and Bonzo, contrary to what you may believe, I like talking to you! I enjoy a bit of banter, and you are always good-natured about it.

I would say you seem very nice, but you might think it's an insult! :flower:

[bonzobravo]

LOL@ROB

I love a bit of banter. I like nothing better then exchanging views with people, whom may have different views. Particularly when they are as articulate as you.

I am delighted you think I am 'nice', but please refrain from calling me 'nice' in the future!

[rabby]

Well since you brought up the subject ROB, it would be nice if you did 'shut up' about Paul. You are obviously besotted with him and therefore are/were blinded to his faults.

I have been reading this board for ages and feel it is totally biased towards Helen and Paul. It is called 'This Is Big Brother' not 'This is Helen and Paul' and although I know you are commenting in the BB2 thread, you do go on and on. Perhaps you should set up your own Website for 'Mr Clarke' and 'H' or do you not think there would be enough interest?

I know that some people are brave enough to have their say about the other BB2 housemates but usually that results in someone very quickly posting a more negative response underneath any positive comments.

Bye!

[Ig]

Originally posted by Romantic old bird
I wasn't trying to censor anyone Ig!

I just thought maybe we were going round in circles. We have talked about it often in the past and it has usually ended in :bawling: .


See, now, don't you wish I'd just shut up?



Absolutely not! I really enjoyed reading that post - very good points, some of which I even agreed with! :thumbs: lol

[bonzobravo]

rabby

I think that is a little harsh, I have manged to talk about many other thing accept Helen & Paul.

The great thing about these FORUMS, is that you are free to post about what you want. This includes ROB, I am not particularly intrested in Helen & Paul, but if ROB wants too, then so be it.

I have had many intresting discussions with ROB about other subjects then Helen & Paul!

Rabby I hope you start to post more as we need people to post more in order to talk about a more wide range of topics.

ROB, as Spencer would say there, there!

[susieq]

Rabby - no need to be so nasty. We have a good time on this board and talk about ALL things Big Brother, from all three series. We have generally good natured exchanges and that's the way we like it.

As you may have noticed, there are threads specifically for each BB as well as for each of the housemates so it's quite OK for topics to be set up, and discussed for any, and all, housemates from whichever series.

I'm sure, once you have had a chance to look through the threads and the postings you will see a wide range of views and topics discussed (some more serious than others!) but all are discussed with respect for eac h other's point of view.

[BusyBee]

Welcome to the board Rabby. Sorry to say (no I'm not sorry to say) I am another of the P and H obsessives here. Its not that I didnt like any of the other housemates cos I do, particularly Brian and Dean, but I am afraid their experience in the house just struck a chord with me and I've taken a 'motherly' interest in them since. If you check, we do talk about other things as well!!!! :thumbs: :thumbs:

[Romantic Old Bird]

Rabby

I am glad you feel able to share your feelings so freely with me.

I am sorry I have offended you.

I am suitably chastened, and will go away and sit quietly contemplating my behaviour until I can completely comprehend the error of my ways. :flower: :flower: :flower:

[Mairi]

Originally posted by Romantic old bird
I am suitably chastened, and will go away and sit quietly contemplating my behaviour until I can completely comprehend the error of my ways. :flower: :flower: :flower:

Don't take too long, ROB. We'd all miss you too much. :love:

[peachy]

Rabby, What you fail completely to understand is that all us 'oldtimers' who've been posting on this board since its beginning LIKE ROB's opinions. We all know that she is going to defend Paul to the death and beyond but she is witty, articulate and has kept us all in fits of laughter for months and months now. We have often wound her up about Paul and she can take a joke with the best of 'em, so leave our ROB alone. She has loads of interesting things to say on other topics and is never rude or unpleasant to anyone who disagrees with her so I don't think you need to be unpleasant either.

[Kaz]

Here here, peachy! :hello:

ROB, the contemplation period is officially over - come out and start posting again now!!! :dazzler:

Admin. has spoken! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[dizzy bint]

Originally posted by rabby
Well since you brought up the subject ROB, it would be nice if you did 'shut up' about Paul. You are obviously besotted with him and therefore are/were blinded to his faults.

I have been reading this board for ages and feel it is totally biased towards Helen and Paul. It is called 'This Is Big Brother' not 'This is Helen and Paul' and although I know you are commenting in the BB2 thread, you do go on and on. Perhaps you should set up your own Website for 'Mr Clarke' and 'H' or do you not think there would be enough interest?

I know that some people are brave enough to have their say about the other BB2 housemates but usually that results in someone very quickly posting a more negative response underneath any positive comments.

Bye!

Absolutely right.


Anyway, I seem to remember reading in the BB2 book that Paul said in general discussion that if he found out that Brian wasn't gay he would punch him. Amma reminded him that violence is unacceptable.

Just where was Paul coming from on this ...

Oh yes, I remember Paul is the best thing since sliced bread and Brian was constantly rude and obnoxious to him especially under his breath and insulted his country of origin etc. Silly me for forgetting that.

[Janette]

I'm closing this thread because it's turning into a "slag another member off" thread, not what it was originally intented for.

[Kaz]

I think you're missing the point, dizzy bint.

As you are aware, differences of opinion are welcomed on this forum. Many a discussion has taken place, but usually in a good humoured and civilised manner.

However, what we do NOT want are personal insults made against members - it is unnecessary and totally unacceptable.

This is a friendly forum where all members' contributions are valued - surely it's not too much to ask for people to be courteous and civil to their follow posters.