Claire's Law - After mother's brutal murder....

[Ammi]

...women to get the right to check abusive partners' criminal records.

Women who use the internet to seek boyfriends will win the right to force the police to reveal if they have a history of violence under plans being considered by Home Secretary Theresa May.
The controversial move is in response to fears that the growing phenomenon of internet dating means more and more women are going out with men whose backgrounds they know little about.
The proposal has been called ‘Clare’s Law’, after the horrific killing of 36-year-old mother Clare Wood by a man she met on Facebook. George Appleton strangled Ms Wood and set her body on fire before hanging himself

Friends and family were shocked to discover that the killer had a history of violence against women, including repeated harassment, threats and the kidnapping at knifepoint of one of his other ex-girlfriends

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2015564/Clares-law-After-mothers-brutal-murder-women-right-check-abusive-partners-criminal-records.html

[Kazanne]

...women to get the right to check abusive partners' criminal records.

Women who use the internet to seek boyfriends will win the right to force the police to reveal if they have a history of violence under plans being considered by Home Secretary Theresa May.
The controversial move is in response to fears that the growing phenomenon of internet dating means more and more women are going out with men whose backgrounds they know little about.
The proposal has been called ‘Clare’s Law’, after the horrific killing of 36-year-old mother Clare Wood by a man she met on Facebook. George Appleton strangled Ms Wood and set her body on fire before hanging himself

Friends and family were shocked to discover that the killer had a history of violence against women, including repeated harassment, threats and the kidnapping at knifepoint of one of his other ex-girlfriends

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2015564/Clares-law-After-mothers-brutal-murder-women-right-check-abusive-partners-criminal-records.html

I think this is a good law to have,at least if a woman knows about a partners past she can at least then bale out before any harm is done.

[Kizzy]

It is a really good idea, as parents we warn our kids about the dangers of the internet but dont think it can happen to anyone at any age. Only thing is would a preditor use their real name?
I would never add someone on FB i didn't know.

[Marc]

Good idea obviously. Hopefully the police will just say 'yes' then explain or just 'no' though as it's a little too revealing and probing

But it wont stop a first time offender killing/raping/hurting a woman.

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

in the mean time maybe people should stop meeting strangers from the internet :suspect:

[Kizzy]

You may have a point, that 'dating' site advertised on TV is a bit creepy, where she walks out the door in her bra and pants?...How safe can it be joining a site that encourages people to meet up for sex?

[Marc]

You may have a point, that 'dating' site advertised on TV is a bit creepy, where she walks out the door in her bra and pants?...How safe can it be joining a site that encourages people to meet up for sex?

:laugh: that website is designed ESPECIALLY for naughtiness, mind you.

Only girls who really want to go out and 'have it away' will join that. Usually the ugly ones or the *****s :tongue:

[Ammi]

....Interestingly, the charity 'Refuge' have condemned it as they say it's barely workable and dangerous and open to data mismanagement.
...and yes Scott, you are right..it seems that simple...but I guess it's the 'vulnerable' who could be drawn in...people who are too trusting and perhaps live an isolated life.

...another thing....if a woman did seek the information and then confronted the guy with it...would that in itself lead to a violent reaction....

hmmm...tricky

[Livia]

Where can men check out questionable women? Or are we to assume that all women are well-balanced mentally and completely non-violent? If that is the case, what of the 90,000 or so women who are arrested every year for violent crimes? Is their history to remain confidential? And if so, why?

In a court, if you're charged with a crime, in most cases the jury will not be told about previous convictions because it may prejudice the case. But aparently, if you want to check someone out on a dating site, you can have access - so long as you're a woman checking up on a man. Sounds like some misguided feminist bull**** to me.

[Ammi]

Where can men check out questionable women? Or are we to assume that all women are well-balanced mentally and completely non-violent? If that is the case, what of the 90,000 or so women who are arrested every year for violent crimes? Is their history to remain confidential? And if so, why?

In a court, if you're charged with a crime, in most cases the jury will not be told about previous convictions because it may prejudice the case. But aparently, if you want to check someone out on a dating site, you can have access - so long as you're a woman checking up on a man. Sounds like some misguided feminist bull**** to me.

..I didn't realise that..I assumed it would apply to botha and was only named as such because of this particular case..yes, woman can be both perpertrators and accomplices in horrific cases...is it gender specific then?...I mean with CRB's, they apply to both sexes

[Niamh.]

Where can men check out questionable women? Or are we to assume that all women are well-balanced mentally and completely non-violent? If that is the case, what of the 90,000 or so women who are arrested every year for violent crimes? Is their history to remain confidential? And if so, why?

In a court, if you're charged with a crime, in most cases the jury will not be told about previous convictions because it may prejudice the case. But aparently, if you want to check someone out on a dating site, you can have access - so long as you're a woman checking up on a man. Sounds like some misguided feminist bull**** to me.

Good point Livia, it should absolutely work both ways

[Kizzy]

Im sure if a fella was to request the information he wouldn't be denied it.

[Marc]

Livia I don't mean to make your serious point a joke but of those 90,000 women how many of those are just drunken idiots on nights out, I could count about 100 whenever I go out on the razz!
Obviously this doesn't make it okay if they're drunk, but was just wondering whether it was a domestic situation or just a drunken mistake/anger.

[Livia]

Livia I don't mean to make your serious point a joke but of those 90,000 women how many of those are just drunken idiots on nights out, I could count about 100 whenever I go out on the razz!
Obviously this doesn't make it okay if they're drunk, but was just wondering whether it was a domestic situation or just a drunken mistake/anger.

How many men with violent histories are just drunken idiots? Or do you think that getting drunk and being violent is somehow acceptable?

Claire's Law concentrates on men with a "history of violence". How are we going to differentiate? Is it acceptable to date a man who's glassed someone when drunk, but not someone who slapped his girlfriend when drunk?

I am uncomfortable with people's criminal records being available on demand to anyone. Where will it stop? How about having people's medical histories available for public scrutiny in case they're HIV positive, or have some kind of STD?

[Livia]

Im sure if a fella was to request the information he wouldn't be denied it.

Really? You're sure?

[Ammi]

How many men with violent histories are just drunken idiots? Or do you think that getting drunk and being violent is somehow acceptable?

Claire's Law concentrates on men with a "history of violence". How are we going to differentiate? Is it acceptable to date a man who's glassed someone when drunk, but not someone who slapped his girlfriend when drunk?

I am uncomfortable with people's criminal records being available on demand to anyone. Where will it stop? How about having people's medical histories available for public scrutiny in case they're HIV positive, or have some kind of STD?

I do see your point and posted it because I'm undecided on this myself..it is an interesting one but certainly not simple or straightforward

Edit: I hadn't realised it only applied to one sex...which I find....incredible

[MTVN]

Yeah I agree with Livia on this one, I'm a bit wary of this law to say the least

[Niamh.]

How many men with violent histories are just drunken idiots? Or do you think that getting drunk and being violent is somehow acceptable?

Claire's Law concentrates on men with a "history of violence". How are we going to differentiate? Is it acceptable to date a man who's glassed someone when drunk, but not someone who slapped his girlfriend when drunk?

I am uncomfortable with people's criminal records being available on demand to anyone. Where will it stop? How about having people's medical histories available for public scrutiny in case they're HIV positive, or have some kind of STD?

Yeah, I kind of agree with that tbh. Maybe the police should only be able to tell the potential partner if the person has ever been charged with domestic abuse and that's it, no handing over of actual records or no more details given out?

[Jesus.]

I think this is an infringement of civil liberties, and is an example of how isolated/rare events can cause mass hysteria and panic to set in amongst society.

How many men with no history of any of these kinds of things have turned out to rape/murder the women in their lives? This system isn't foolproof at all, and if there are men out there, that are being marginalised by society due to a prosecution, then how do we think these frustrations will manifest themselves onto society?

I've never raised my finger to a woman, but if I was being attacked by a woman, and in the ensuing struggle of me defending myself, I pushed her away and she fell and hurt herself, why should that mean that I would potentially be unable to have any women want to go out with me?

It would be better to empower/educate people of what to do at the first signs of m2f aggression. Some men will always murder/rape women, just like they have throughout history. What happens if I finish with a girl who doesn't take it too well, and reports me to the police for abusing her, knowing full well that it would cost me the chance of future happiness.

[Kizzy]

It would be discriminatory if not surely? And i only agree if the convictions are live and not 'spent' convictions of domestic violence.

[Niamh.]

I think this is an infringement of civil liberties, and is an example of how isolated/rare events can cause mass hysteria and panic to set in amongst society.

How many men with no history of any of these kinds of things have turned out to rape/murder the women in their lives? This system isn't foolproof at all, and if there are men out there, that are being marginalised by society due to a prosecution, then how do we think these frustrations will manifest themselves onto society?

I've never raised my finger to a woman, but if I was being attacked by a woman, and in the ensuing struggle of me defending myself, I pushed her away and she fell and hurt herself, why should that mean that I would potentially be unable to have any women want to go out with me?

It would be better to empower/educate people of what to do at the first signs of m2f aggression. Some men will always murder/rape women, just like they have throughout history. What happens if I finish with a girl who doesn't take it too well, and reports me to the police for abusing her, knowing full well that it would cost me the chance of future happiness.

Yeah, great points actually

[Kizzy]

2 women every week are murdered by a partner/ex partner.

[Jesus.]

2 women every week are murdered by a partner/ex partner.

That wouldn't change with the introduction of this law.

[Ammi]

I think this is an infringement of civil liberties, and is an example of how isolated/rare events can cause mass hysteria and panic to set in amongst society.

How many men with no history of any of these kinds of things have turned out to rape/murder the women in their lives? This system isn't foolproof at all, and if there are men out there, that are being marginalised by society due to a prosecution, then how do we think these frustrations will manifest themselves onto society?

I've never raised my finger to a woman, but if I was being attacked by a woman, and in the ensuing struggle of me defending myself, I pushed her away and she fell and hurt herself, why should that mean that I would potentially be unable to have any women want to go out with me?

It would be better to empower/educate people of what to do at the first signs of m2f aggression. Some men will always murder/rape women, just like they have throughout history. What happens if I finish with a girl who doesn't take it too well, and reports me to the police for abusing her, knowing full well that it would cost me the chance of future happiness.

..this is one of my biggest concerns...it seems to me there are a surprisingly large amount of cases where the man is later proved innocent....what happens in those cases...

[Kizzy]

It won't, and it shouldn't make decent men paranoid if an incident occured and you found yourself in the situation you described your plea would be reasonable force, and it would stop there. On the other hand if you were a convicted abuser of women, then like sarahs law in place to protect children your history of crimes against women will be divulged to your current partner on her request.

[Ammi]

It won't, and it shouldn't make decent men paranoid if an incident occured and you found yourself in the situation you described your plea would be reasonable force, and it would stop there. On the other hand if you were a convicted abuser of women, then like sarahs law in place to protect children your history of crimes against women will be divulged to your current partner on her request.

..the big thing that worries me about that Kizzy...is I'm not convinced Sarah's Law has changed anything.....these monsters find a way, regardless

[Livia]

I think this is an infringement of civil liberties, and is an example of how isolated/rare events can cause mass hysteria and panic to set in amongst society.

How many men with no history of any of these kinds of things have turned out to rape/murder the women in their lives? This system isn't foolproof at all, and if there are men out there, that are being marginalised by society due to a prosecution, then how do we think these frustrations will manifest themselves onto society?

I've never raised my finger to a woman, but if I was being attacked by a woman, and in the ensuing struggle of me defending myself, I pushed her away and she fell and hurt herself, why should that mean that I would potentially be unable to have any women want to go out with me?

It would be better to empower/educate people of what to do at the first signs of m2f aggression. Some men will always murder/rape women, just like they have throughout history. What happens if I finish with a girl who doesn't take it too well, and reports me to the police for abusing her, knowing full well that it would cost me the chance of future happiness.

To punctuate that point... when Sarah's Law was introduced which made information available on paedophiles, the biggest group using the service were ex-husbands raising concerns about their ex-wife's new partner. Likewise Claire's Law is likely to be open to abuse as a tool of revenge.

[Kizzy]

Manipulating preditors do ammi, but at least now if you have any suspicions regarding a new partner you may request information relating to abuse. A tool of revenge? i dont understand that point, there are guidelines in place as to why and when information can be accessed.

[Jesus.]

It's a bit naive to think that the system wouldn't be abused, and some women wouldn't use it to wield power. It's not a case of saying "if you're innocent, you'll be fine" because that's not necessarily true.

Serious question to the women - what would you do if you found a man that had one conviction for spouse abuse?

In my business I have to CRB check people, and it doesn't give you a full breakdown of each scenario on these checks, and go into legal nuances. It gives a date and conviction.

If, as a society, we want to rehabilitate people back into society, then how is this possible for these men that may have reacted badly once? We may end up creating another sub-set of the population. What happens when we deny these men attempting to rehabilitate themselves and manage anger/aggression issues, normal relationships, so instead, they are forced to fantasise over the internet and role play with prostitutes?

Will this really make women safer? Or will it mean we move statistics from women being raped/attacked more by strangers than partners in the future.

Men have done it through history, and will do it throughout the future, unfortunately. Just like there will always be serial killers/sociopaths.

[Kizzy]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1245680/Sarahs-Law-allowing-parents-carry-sex-offender-checks-rolled-out.html

[Jesus.]

To punctuate that point... when Sarah's Law was introduced which made information available on paedophiles, the biggest group using the service were ex-husbands raising concerns about their ex-wife's new partner. Likewise Claire's Law is likely to be open to abuse as a tool of revenge.

Do you remember the paediatrician that was attacked, too?

[Kizzy]

You are overreacting, it can only be used by the woman(or man) who has reason to believe she may be at risk. Only those with CONVICTIONS for abuse will be affected the CPS do not prosecute lightly, there will have been a history of prolonged systematic abuse prior to conviction.

[Ammi]

..I have to say that the supporters of this claim there will be safeguarding in place to stop 'revenge' incidents happening and information will not be 'handed out' to just anyone...obviously there are no details of this yet. It seems to me, that although these incidents are horrendous, as in Claire's case..they are 'extremes' and quite rare and to introduce a law which infringes on privacy in this way seems too extreme and possibly unworkable anyway
...but then, it could be argued...one case is one too many

[arista]

in the mean time maybe people should stop meeting strangers from the internet :suspect:


Yes it was a Facebook date
gone evil.

[Jesus.]

So if I decide to turn into a women beater, then the first time I hit my wife/partner, I'd get a free pass? Then the 2nd time I'd get a free pass, too? Then the third?

The CPS don't prosecute first time offenders?

I'm not saying you're wrong, but that doesn't seem right to me. Especially considering that men are prosecuted for fighting each other in drunken brawls pretty much every weekend.

Maybe Liv can offer a legal perspective on this point?

[Kizzy]

You are being silly now, the severity of the offence would determine wether they chose to prosecute or not obviously.

[Niamh.]

The thing about it is, why would you check out a potential partner in the first place, I mean if you suspected he was a woman beater, then surely that's enough reason for you to not be with him in anyway? Or are they suggesting that all women check out every potential boyfriend before going out with them?

[Livia]

Do you remember the paediatrician that was attacked, too?

Yes, I remember that.

You are overreacting, it can only be used by the woman(or man) who has reason to believe she may be at risk. Only those with CONVICTIONS for abuse will be affected the CPS do not prosecute lightly, there will have been a history of prolonged systematic abuse prior to conviction.

No one is overreacting. You seem very certain of all the facts, how the CPS works, the offender's history of "prolonged and systempatic abuse prior to conviction"... when in fact conflicting media reports would suggest that even those who are proposing this flawed scheme aren't 100% sure of how it will work.

JHChrist's post above demonstrates what happens when information is placed into the hands of the public, a man attacked by an illiterate mob who thought couldn't tell the difference between paediatrician and paedophile.

Leave the law to the lawyers and policing to the police.

[Livia]

So if I decide to turn into a women beater, then the first time I hit my wife/partner, I'd get a free pass? Then the 2nd time I'd get a free pass, too? Then the third?

The CPS don't prosecute first time offenders?

I'm not saying you're wrong, but that doesn't seem right to me. Especially considering that men are prosecuted for fighting each other in drunken brawls pretty much every weekend.

Maybe Liv can offer a legal perspective on this point?

Unfortunately, all I could do is guess, because even those who are trying to steamroller this law into being aren't 100% sure how it will work. Each individual case would depend on a wide range of circumstances. And it's worth bearing in mind that in many cases of domestic violence, the women involved are reluctant to press charges much to the annoyance of the police who are then unable to bring about a conviction. So there will be many men out there who are extremely violent and will not show up in a search like this anyway.

[Ammi]

The thing about it is, why would you check out a potential partner in the first place, I mean if you suspected he was a woman beater, then surely that's enough reason for you to not be with him in anyway? Or are they suggesting that all women check out every potential boyfriend before going out with them?

That's my concern about it Niamh...it seems open to all kinds of abuse..I may be wrong and they have stated there will be safeguarding against this...but it doesn't seem necessary or practical and I think may cause more problems than it solves. What happened to this woman is awful...and I'm sure I'm just being overly cynical...but I do find I'm questioning the reasoning behind it

[Ammi]

Unfortunately, all I could do is guess, because even those who are trying to steamroller this law into being aren't 100% sure how it will work. Each individual case would depend on a wide range of circumstances. And it's worth bearing in mind that in many cases of domestic violence, the women involved are reluctant to press changes much to the annoyance of the police who are then unable to bring about a conviction. So there will be many men out there who are extremely violent and will not show up in a search like this anyway.

Yes, that's how it appears....the monsters out there seem to escape these procedures anyway

[Jesus.]

You are being silly now, the severity of the offence would determine wether they chose to prosecute or not obviously.

Silly would be introducing a new law without fully researching the potential abuses and issues with the law in the first place.

Wherever there are little loopholes or workarounds, people will try to exploit these. It's human nature.

[Kizzy]

I am aware of how it works livia, and I can see the worrys abut vigilantes. Im not a lawyer or a police officer, but i do have an opinion based on fact.

[Livia]

I am aware of how it works livia, and I can see the worrys abut vigilantes. Im not a lawyer or a police officer, but i do have an opinion based on fact.

You think you have an opinion based on fact, but the fact is that you don't know how this is going to work and you're hoping that it will be what you think it's going to be.

[Kizzy]

Silly would be introducing a new law without fully researching the potential abuses and issues with the law in the first place.

Wherever there are little loopholes or workarounds, people will try to exploit these. It's human nature.

As sarahs law, clairs law may follow a similar format, I cant see how it could be exploited. Has this man I am in a relationship with been convicted of domestic abuse yes or no?
It seems it is as a result of the mishandling of clairs case, and investigations by the IPCC that led to this decision.
Niamhs point was the best, if you even suspect that you may be at risk ie some incident has already occurred why continue the relationship?

[Jesus.]

As sarahs law, clairs law may follow a similar format, I cant see how it could be exploited. Has this man I am in a relationship with been convicted of domestic abuse yes or no?
It seems it is as a result of the mishandling of clairs case, and investigations by the IPCC that led to this decision.
Niamhs point was the best, if you even suspect that you may be at risk ie some incident has already occurred why continue the relationship?

Bingo - laws infringing on civil liberties aren't necessary.

I don't believe that men capable of these things, wouldn't at least hint of their capabilities, even if it is just a threatening glance, or a completely uncalled for raising of the voice at an inappropriate time.

[Kizzy]

You think you have an opinion based on fact, but the fact is that you don't know how this is going to work and you're hoping that it will be what you think it's going to be.

I dont know how it will work no, the only fact here is unless the person has been prosecuted for an offence it will not be on the PNC.

[Livia]

I dont know how it will work no, the only fact here is unless the person has been prosecuted for an offence it will not be on the PNC.

Unfortunately, everything is not a case of being black or white.

[Kazanne]

This one for me is hard as I take on board both sides,they have just said on the news that BOTH MEN And women can ask about past lives,where I struggle is in the case of the girl Robert Thompson(one of James Bulgers killers)fathered a child with and she wasn't told of his past,this imo is wrong,to her and her family,in cases like that I think a partner should be told immediately.

[Kizzy]

Unfortunately, everything is not a case of being black or white.

Regarding what?

[Niamh.]

This one for me is hard as I take on board both sides,they have just said on the news that BOTH MEN And women can ask about past lives,where I struggle is in the case of the girl Robert Thompson(one of James Bulgers killers)fathered a child with and she wasn't told of his past,this imo is wrong,to her and her family,in cases like that I think a partner should be told immediately.

Oh God, how devastating that must have been for her when she found out

[Kazanne]

Oh God, how devastating that must have been for her when she found out

They are no longer together Niamh,they split a while ago,but that poor girl and worse that poor child !but better that he is not with them:xyxwave:

[MTVN]

This one for me is hard as I take on board both sides,they have just said on the news that BOTH MEN And women can ask about past lives,where I struggle is in the case of the girl Robert Thompson(one of James Bulgers killers)fathered a child with and she wasn't told of his past,this imo is wrong,to her and her family,in cases like that I think a partner should be told immediately.

I've never heard about that before, can't find anything online about it either?

Edit - never mind, found a post about it on some forum quoting the Mirror

[Roy Mars III]

while the idea of the law is good, it will be abused by people

[Niamh.]

They are no longer together Niamh,they split a while ago,but that poor girl and worse that poor child !but better that he is not with them:xyxwave:

Yeah, but eventually that child will have to find out what it's dad did, poor thing.

while the idea of the law is good, it will be abused by people

Yeah, unfortunately I think you're right

[Livia]

Regarding what?

Regarding what we're discussing here.

Just because someone doesn’t have a record doesn’t mean they are incapable of committing a crime, neither does it doesn't mean they have never committed one. They may have been arrested and had the charges dropped because the victim refused to press charges, or they may have been acquitted because of insufficient evidence or another reason. Furthermore, just because someone was once convicted of violence doesn't mean they will ever reoffend. And details of what kind of convictions are going to be passed on? Just domestic violence or all types of violence? Who decides what's relevant?

It's a mare's nest and will be open to all kinds of abuse.

[bbfan1991]

I think it will be good and help women affected, although we never know what happens behind close doors, the ones who do it are mainly people who come across polite or nasty in public and nasty behind closed doors.

I have always wanted more to be done about Domestic Violence on men though because it does happen.

[fruit_cake]

This one for me is hard as I take on board both sides,they have just said on the news that BOTH MEN And women can ask about past lives,where I struggle is in the case of the girl Robert Thompson(one of James Bulgers killers)fathered a child with and she wasn't told of his past,this imo is wrong,to her and her family,in cases like that I think a partner should be told immediately.

he shouldn't have been let out of prison in the first place, I can't believe they let him out!

[Kizzy]

It has been made much harder for victims to drop charges,
http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/prosecution/domestic/domv.html#a05

As i have said many times only cases where there is a conviction should be made available.What kind of abuse do you mean, who do you think will be privvy to that information?

[Jack_]

This one for me is hard as I take on board both sides,they have just said on the news that BOTH MEN And women can ask about past lives,where I struggle is in the case of the girl Robert Thompson(one of James Bulgers killers)fathered a child with and she wasn't told of his past,this imo is wrong,to her and her family,in cases like that I think a partner should be told immediately.

But you see the problem with that is that if she were told, let's be honest the chances are that she would have told almost everyone else she knew, and vigilante action would have been likely. Not the greatest of ideas I think.

[Shasown]

I think the campaigners who are attempting to push this sexist rubbish into statute would be better spent asking why the police were unable to protect the victim.

Surely an adequate system to protect victims including fast tracking anti harrassment orders, immediate removal of bail when conditions have been broken in such cases etc, would be of far better value than some half assed law that removes the right of the individual, breaks the Rehabilitation of Offenders Acts and gives women one sided power to denigrate males.

I take it that it would be deemed politically incorrect to query where the term bunny boiler came from?

[Jesus.]

I think the campaigners who are attempting to push this sexist rubbish into statute would be better spent asking why the police were unable to protect the victim.

Surely an adequate system to protect victims including fast tracking anti harrassment orders, immediate removal of bail when conditions have been broken in such cases etc, would be of far better value than some half assed law that removes the right of the individual, breaks the Rehabilitation of Offenders Acts and gives women one sided power to denigrate males.

I take it that it would be deemed politically incorrect to query where the term bunny boiler came from?

From the film "Fatal Attraction" with Michael Douglas. His mistress boils the family rabbit alive and leaves it on the hob for them to find. Hence the term "bunny boiler."

[Vicky.]

Seems a bit daft to me, and very open to abuse tbh :/

[Vicky.]

And yes, it is ridiculously sexist also.

Women beat their blokes too. It just doesnt get reported as often

[lostalex]

This law shouldn't be necessary. These monsters should be locked up for decades the first time. Women'shouldn't have to check on this sort of thing, they should trust their government to put these people in JAIL the FIRST time.

It's an outrage that any woman should have to fear these type of monsters are on the streets to begin with.

Forget 3 strikes and yur out, when it comes to domestic violence, it should be 1 strike and your OUT.

As a 1st hand witness to it, i think i can speak with some authority.

[lostalex]

And yes, it is ridiculously sexist also.

Women beat their blokes too. It just doesnt get reported as often
but Men arn't in the position where they have no financial resources because we live in a society where it's still okay that Men make more money than Women, and Women are still expected to be caretakers of the home with no payment. and many women are dependant on their husbands for many reasources.

It's not Equal, so please stop talking about it as if it IS equal.

When a woman leaves a man, she leaves with nothing at first, it can take YEARS to get a man to pay allamony or child support, wtf is she suppossed to do for those years??

Women in western society are literally TRAPPED by the systematic misogyny. Especially women that don't have a wealthy family to rely on.

Please don't pretend that women have the option of just leaving and they "auitomatically TAKE half" as seems to be the common meme.

When a woman leaves, she more often than not has NOTHING to her name, because these type of controlling men make sure she has nothing, that's one of the ways that they maintain control. That is how so many of them get away with it for so long. That's WY they stay so long, because they have no way out, because these MONSTER men make sure that they have no access to money or any resources.

When a woman tells you that a man is abusive, BELIEVE HER.

[Vicky.]

but Men arn't in the position where they have no financial resources because we live in a society where it's still okay that Men make more money than Women, and Women are still expected to be caretakers of the home with no payment. and many women are dependant on their husbands for many reasources.

It's not Equal, so please stop talking about it as if it IS equal.

When a woman leaves a man, she leaves with nothing at first, it can take YEARS to get a man to pay allamony or child support, wtf is she suppossed to do for those years??

Women in western society are literally TRAPPED by the systematic misogyny. Especially women that don't have a wealthy family to rely on.

Please don't pretend that women have the option of just leaving and they "auitomatically TAKE half" as seems to be the common meme.

When a woman leaves, she more often than not has NOTHING to her name, because these type of controlling men make sure she has nothing, that's one of the ways that they maintain control. That is how so many of them get away with it for so long/

What the hell?! Are you still living in the 50s or something?!

As for the bold bit, same goes for the other way round too. Controlling women would make sure their partner had nothing, and relied on them totally.

[lostalex]

Im sorry, but you are very naive if you think it's the same thing Vicky. I disagree VERY strongly.

There is no comparisson between a woman getting drunk and slaping a man, and a man TERRORIZING a woman.

I pray you never know better, cause it'll be a helluva wake-up call for you, and i wouldn't wish it on you.

Unfortunately most people are as naive as you, keep on protecting the rights of the most powerful. That really makes sense to you?

Yes, poor white heterosexual men. Because they are such VICTIMS in this world.

Give me a FOOKING break.

[Vicky.]

Im sorry, but you are very naive if you think it's the same thing Vicky. I disagree VERY strongly.

There is no comparisson between a woman getting drunk and slaping a man, and a man TERRORIZING a woman.

I pray you never know better, cause it'll be a helluva wake-up call for you, and i wouldn't wish it on you. You'd probably kill yourself over the guilt you'd feel over what you've said in this thread.

I didnt compare those though. I know theres a big difference between those two cases.

[Vicky.]

Also, as per your edit...who mentioned colour...and what on earth does that have to do with it?

[lostalex]

Also, as per your edit...who mentioned colour...and what on earth does that have to do with it?

ummm, you do realize the political and justice system is 90% white heterosexual men, right?
so i'm pretty sure they have plenty of people loking out for THEM and THEIR interests.

I'm pretty sure there are plenty of sympathetic ears for str8 white MEN in the British justice system.

That's all i'm saying.

[Vicky.]

ummm, you do realize the political and justice system is 90% white heterosexual men, right?
so i'm pretty sure they have plenty of people loking out for THEM and THEIR interests.

I'm pretty sure there are plenty of sympathetic ears for str8 white MEN in the British justice system.

That's all i'm saying.

Again, what does that have to do with the fact that males get abused by their partners too? Its not always male on female domestic abuse.

[lostalex]

Again, what does that have to do with the fact that males get abused by their partners too? Its not always male on female domestic abuse.

umm, okay, are we gonna play a semantics game? okay then..

then what does men being abused by female partners have to do with the original topic at all???

If you'd like to talk about men being abused by women, then start a new thread, cause it's got nothing to do with this one.

Since yur gonna be such a stickler for the rules, follow yur own advice.

You're the one that hijacked this thread with an off topic conversation, not me.

[Vicky.]

umm, okay, are we gonna play a semantics game? okay then..

then what does men being abused by female partners have to do with the original topic at all???

If you'd like to talk about men being abused by women, then start a new thread, cause it's got nothing to do with this one.

Since yur gonna be such a stickler for the rules, follow yur own advice.

...

The law in the OP is sexist. This is why men being abused by their partners has been brought into it. Its about domestic abuse, and that goes both ways.

What does colour have to do with the law being proposed?

What does how many 'str8 white men' are in the justice system have to do with it?

For some reason you seem to have something against white heterosexual males, this is about the only thing your posts in here have made clear.

[lostalex]

There is not "2 sides" to this conversation. This is about Women being BEATEN by MEN. end of. Nothing in the OP suggests otherwise.

So please explain to me what men being abused by women has to do with this thread? Frankly it's offensive, because it's like your trying to make it seem like it's EQUAL, that WOmen BEAT and ABUSE men in the same way, and they don't.

If you wanna talk about men being abused by women, then feel free to have that conversation, but this is NOT that conversation.

[Vicky.]

There is not "2 sides" to this conversation. This is about Women being BEATEN by MEN. end of. Nothing in the OP suggests otherwise.

So please explain to me what men being abused by women has to do with this thread? Frankly it's offensive, because it's like your trying to make it seem like it's EQUAL, that WOmen BEAT and ABUSE men in the same way, and they don't.

If you wanna talk about men being abused by women, then feel free to have that conversation, but this is NOT that conversation.

They do.

[lostalex]

we disagree.

[lostalex]

Look at the murder rates of men and women.
Do you know where a heterosexual woman is most likely to be murdered?

The most dangerous place for a heterosexual woman when it comes to murder is in her own home with a heterosexual male partner. That's a fact.

Funny, the same can't be said for heterosexual men.

Why do you think that is? What do you have to say about that?

A heterosexual woman is in more danger of being murdered in her own bedroom, than in a dark alley at night. That says a lot.

[Vicky.]

An article about female on male domestic abuse. I think you could maybe do with reading up on wat you are arguing doesnt exist...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence

Men assaulted by their partners are often ignored by police, see their attacker go free and have far fewer refuges to flee to than women, says a study by the men's rights campaign group Parity.

Yeah, I guess its not equal then, you were right. The men seem to get a rawer deal from the authorities.

Ian McNicholl, 47, has painful memories to remind him of the terror he endured when he found himself a male victim of domestic violence.

His then fiancee, Michelle Williamson, punched him in the face several times, stubbed out cigarettes on his body, lashed him with a vacuum cleaner tube, hit him with a metal bar and a hammer and even poured boiling water on to his lap. That at 6ft he was almost a foot taller than her made no difference. He still has burn marks on his left shoulder from when she used steam from an iron on him. Williamson, 35, is now serving a seven-year jail sentence for causing both actual and grievous bodily harm.

During the trial last year McNicholl told the court that, during more than a year of attacks and intimidation, he had lost his job, home and self-respect. He had been too scared to go to the police and had considered suicide. She was only arrested after two neighbours saw her punch him.

Sentencing her at Grimsby crown court last year, judge John Reddihough told Williamson: "Over the period of time you were with him you destroyed him mentally and seriously harmed him physically, leaving him with both physical and mental scars."

Sounds very much like some women dont 'terrorise' their blokes alright eh?



Now I wonder if this sexist law will be passed or not...

[lostalex]

All of the arguments you are using are the same arguments that racist groups use against Affirmative Action laws. Just thought i'd point that out.

Some groups need more protection, and yes, it is unfair, but you need unfair laws to combat an UNFAIR SOCIETY. imho.

[Vicky.]

Look at the murder rates of men and women.
Do you know where a heterosexual woman is most likely to be murdered?

The most dangerous place for a heterosexual woman when it comes to murder is in her own home with a heterosexual male partner. That's a fact.

Funny, the same can't be said for heterosexual men.

Why do you think that is? What do you have to say about that?

A heterosexual woman is in more danger of being murdered in her own bedroom, than in a dark alley at night. That says a lot.

Thats actually really interesting.

Where is a heterosexual male more likely to be murdered?

[Vicky.]

All of the arguments you are using are the same arguments that racist groups use against Affirmative Action laws. Just thought i'd point that out.

Some groups need more protection, and yes, it is unfair, but you need unfair laws to combat an UNFAIR SOCIETY. imho.

And there we have it.

Its fine to discriminate against the majority apparently.

[Shasown]

From the film "Fatal Attraction" with Michael Douglas. His mistress boils the family rabbit alive and leaves it on the hob for them to find. Hence the term "bunny boiler."

Thanks for the unnecessary info, I knew where it come from, please read the part of my post you yourself highlighted, if you have any problems understanding the point I was making please feel free to PM me ;)

This law shouldn't be necessary. These monsters should be locked up for decades the first time. Women'shouldn't have to check on this sort of thing, they should trust their government to put these people in JAIL the FIRST time.

It's an outrage that any woman should have to fear these type of monsters are on the streets to begin with.

Forget 3 strikes and yur out, when it comes to domestic violence, it should be 1 strike and your OUT.

As a 1st hand witness to it, i think i can speak with some authority.

!st hand witness? Do you mean you were the victim of domestic abuse?

but Men arn't in the position where they have no financial resources because we live in a society where it's still okay that Men make more money than Women, and Women are still expected to be caretakers of the home with no payment. and many women are dependant on their husbands for many reasources.

It's not Equal, so please stop talking about it as if it IS equal.

When a woman leaves a man, she leaves with nothing at first, it can take YEARS to get a man to pay allamony or child support, wtf is she suppossed to do for those years??

Women in western society are literally TRAPPED by the systematic misogyny. Especially women that don't have a wealthy family to rely on.

Please don't pretend that women have the option of just leaving and they "auitomatically TAKE half" as seems to be the common meme.

When a woman leaves, she more often than not has NOTHING to her name, because these type of controlling men make sure she has nothing, that's one of the ways that they maintain control. That is how so many of them get away with it for so long. That's WY they stay so long, because they have no way out, because these MONSTER men make sure that they have no access to money or any resources.

When a woman tells you that a man is abusive, BELIEVE HER.

Once again you are gobbing off about things you know very little about. Refuges are available in the UK for victims of domestic violence, allowances and grants are available in a lot of cases for victims to help them start again
Unfortunately as pointed out elsewhere in the thread men arent terated the same.

My wife was an alchoholic, and I mean serious heavy duty alccy, when she had drunk all the available cash around the house on her latest binge, she would then phone me at work demanding I return home with cash for her to buy more drink. I would refuse.

So she would either phone the service police at the establishment I was working at, or later when they wisened to her act the local civilian police to inform them that I was abusing her.heres the funny thing, I never ever hit, though she did hit me, in fact she stabbed me a couple of times scalded me a couple of times too.

Please dont come on here claiming to know the truths of the earth until you have a little experience of life and the ills men do to one another.



Im sorry, but you are very naive if you think it's the same thing Vicky. I disagree VERY strongly.

There is no comparisson between a woman getting drunk and slaping a man, and a man TERRORIZING a woman.

I pray you never know better, cause it'll be a helluva wake-up call for you, and i wouldn't wish it on you.

Unfortunately most people are as naive as you, keep on protecting the rights of the most powerful. That really makes sense to you?

Yes, poor white heterosexual men. Because they are such VICTIMS in this world.

Give me a FOOKING break.

I would live to give you a break, but please dont think a woman terrorising a man on a daily basis is the same as a man giving a woman the odd slap.

Sounds horrible that doesnt it? Think about it.

ummm, you do realize the political and justice system is 90% white heterosexual men, right?
so i'm pretty sure they have plenty of people loking out for THEM and THEIR interests.

I'm pretty sure there are plenty of sympathetic ears for str8 white MEN in the British justice system.

That's all i'm saying.

I take it you are an outraged homosexal male then going by the comments on this post?

[Kazanne]

I've never heard about that before, can't find anything online about it either?

Edit - never mind, found a post about it on some forum quoting the Mirror

It's true MTVN,and so wrong imo.

[Kazanne]

But you see the problem with that is that if she were told, let's be honest the chances are that she would have told almost everyone else she knew, and vigilante action would have been likely. Not the greatest of ideas I think.

She should have been told as soon as she started dating him,then at least she could have made her own mind up,and as for her telling others,you don't have to worry Jack,the tax payers have protected them thus far so no doubt will continue to do so,myself I would broadcast it from the rooftops and let him take his chances and see how brave he really is!now what a GOOD idea,but that is another subject and off topic!

[lostalex]

I take it you are an outraged homosexal male then going by the comments on this post?


Oops, my bad, i didn't realize being a homosexual disqualified me from having an OPINION.

REALLY?

yes he actually did say that to me. WOW> this is the year 2012 and he ACTUALLY said that to me. lol

[Kizzy]

Alex please dont make this thread about you, or america...it isn't. The laws here seem to be amended daily as they struggle with the issues of domestic violence, as a sociological fact these cases rise in times of financial hardship such as the ongoing recession.

[lostalex]

wow, you deleted all that but yu l;eft that post by Kizzy??? REALLY???

REALLY NOW????


think about that.

[Marsh.]

I've got to say some of lostalex's responses are baffling.

Women are just as capable of terrorizing and abusing men, as men are to women.

It is sexist that women are getting these measures to protect themselves from men, whilst men don't have the option to check for a psycho bitch.

[lostalex]

I've got to say some of lostalex's responses are baffling.

Women are just as capable of terrorizing and abusing men, as men are to women.

oh really? because women has as much money as men? women hold an equal number of positions of power as men? Women are usually physically as strong as men?? REALLY?

When a woman goes before a judge to accusse a man of rape, tell me, what percentage of judges are women?

do you know?

Get REAL.

[lostalex]

Unbelievable the amount of ignorance on this forum. And you all have the nerve to criticize the American justice system?

Lord help us all.

[Marsh.]

oh really? because women has as much money as men? women hold an equal number of positions of power as men? Women are usually physically as strong as men?? REALLY?

When a woman goes before a judge to accusse a man of rape, tell me, what percentage of judges are women?

do you know?

Get REAL.

Are all women physically weaker than men, are ALL men big, muscly and strong.

Are all women emotionally more stable than men?

You can say "Women are weaker than men" but that is a BROAD GENERALISATION. There are severe cases of men being abused mentally and physically by their female partners and have just as much right as women do to protect themselves from these psychos MALE OR FEMALE.

BIB, irony at best.

[Marsh.]

Your term "usually" is the key, not all men are strong and not all women are weak. FACT.

It's not ignorance love, get down off your pedestal.

[lostalex]

Alex please dont make this thread about you, or america...it isn't. The laws here seem to be amended daily as they struggle with the issues of domestic violence, as a sociological fact these cases rise in times of financial hardship such as the ongoing recession.

i;'m sorry are you saying that it's understandable for a MAN to BEAT and KILL a woman because the ECONOMY is bad?


Wow, it's making me think of all those posts about how Sarah Palin "only in America" it was cute and ironic at the time, but jesus, i guess it's NOT ONLY IN AMERICA is it...

[lostalex]

Amazing. I've learned more about the UK in 20 minutes on this thread than i have with 3 years of watching Newsnight.

[Marsh.]

i;'m sorry are you saying that it's understandable for a MAN to BEAT and KILL a woman because the ECONOMY is bad?


Wow, it's making me think of all those posts about how Sarah Palin "only in America" it was cute and ironic at the time, but jesus, i guess it's NOT ONLY IN AMERICA is it...

You really do take the slightest comment and blow it out of all proportion.

Economic hardship increases stress, depression and a number of other mental health issues, financial struggles, which then causes marriage breakdowns, violence etc etc. It's not giving the people a way out or an excuse for what they did but it's true. Can you not see that?

It's not the reason for ALL of them and it's no damn excuse but it's valid none the less.

Your main problem is you generalise everything and a mole hill becomes a mountain.

[lostalex]

You really do take the slightest comment and blow it out of all proportion.

Economic hardship increases stress, depression and a number of other mental health issues, financial struggles, which then causes marriage breakdowns, violence etc etc. It's not giving the people a way out or an excuse for what they did but it's true. Can you not see that?

It's not the reason for ALL of them and it's no damn excuse but it's valid none the less.

Your main problem is you generalise everything and a mole hill becomes a mountain.

I would say go back and read the thread, but some mysterious force has deleted a large portion of this thread, so i guess (as i suspect was intended) i'll just have to smile and nod, and pretend that entire PAGES weren't deleted.


SMILES AND NODS. :xyxwave: yay for pretending.

reality, TiBB style.

[Marsh.]

I would say go back and read the thread, but some mysterious force has deleted a large portion of this thread, so i guess (as i suspect was intended) i'll just have to smile and nod, and pretend that entire PAGES weren't deleted.


SMILES AND NODS. :xyxwave: yay for pretending.

reality, TiBB style.

So, nothing valid to add? No actual response to what I posted?
No grown up way to move the discussion forward?

Just a 'fingers in ears, ignore it and it'll go away'?

Should have known this from experience in the past but I won't fall for it again.

Memo to self - Never try to have any kind of discussion with lostalex.

[Vicky.]

I would say go back and read the thread, but some mysterious force has deleted a large portion of this thread, so i guess (as i suspect was intended) i'll just have to smile and nod, and pretend that entire PAGES weren't deleted.


SMILES AND NODS. :xyxwave: yay for pretending.

reality, TiBB style.

No pretending necessary. Only 9 posts have been deleted in here, half of which were just full of abuse, not valid debating.

[lostalex]

No pretending necessary. Only 9 posts have been deleted in here, half of which were just full of abuse, not valid debating.
abuse from who towards who? i think we should make that clear. I certainly never targetted anyone, funny how the person who did seems to have a guardian angel though, and i'm left being accussed of stirring trouble...

hmmmmmm. Yea, that's totally fair......:rolleyes:

[lostalex]

Memo to self - Never try to have any kind of discussion with lostalex.

Memo to self: try to remember if you Ever asked Marsh to discuss anything with you? cause she seems absolutely upset, but i don't remember a single instance where i ASKED for her input...

...how peculiar that she'd think i'd miss her...

[Vicky.]

abuse from who towards who? i think we should make that clear. I certainly never targetted anyone, funny how the person who did seems to have a guardian angel though, and i'm left being accussed of stirring trouble...

hmmmmmm. Yea, that's totally fair......:rolleyes:

I didnt say you targetted anyone, or accused you of causing trouble. I simply stated that what you said (about pages being deleted) was inaccurate. I think actually reading what posts say, rather than inventing things that you think they say...might help you a bit. You seem to get awfully worked up about very little on a regular basis.

And by 'reading what posts say' I mean my earlier post of No pretending necessary. Only 9 posts have been deleted in here, half of which were just full of abuse, not valid debating. Not posts that have already been deleted...clearly.

[Marsh.]

Memo to self: try to remember if you Ever asked Marsh to discuss anything with you? cause she seems absolutely upset, but i don't remember a single instance where i ASKED for her input...

...how peculiar that she'd think i'd miss her...

I'm not a "her", you obnoxious troll.

You didn't ask for my input because it's a damn public forum where ANYBODY has the right to post their opinion on any subject and engage in discussion with any other member of the forum. You seem completely incapable of having a civilised discussion without resorting to insults and abuse.

Do you never ask yourself why your threads always get pages deleted?

[InOne]

With this whole women abusing men thing, I don't think physcial strength has too much to do with it, it's more what the woman is capable of doing. If she is more prone to violence then she will use weapons or whatever means to abuse the partner. Like everyone has breaks that stops us doing stupid stuff, but if you don't have those breaks then violence can be scarily casual.

[Livia]

With this whole women abusing men thing, I don't think physcial strength has too much to do with it, it's more what the woman is capable of doing. If she is more prone to violence then she will use weapons or whatever means to abuse the partner. Like everyone has breaks that stops us doing stupid stuff, but if you don't have those breaks then violence can be scarily casual.

Oi, don't come on this thread making sense and being all reasonable!

[InOne]

Oi, don't come on this thread making sense and being all reasonable!

Someone has to :nono: I'm tired of lostalex taking over threads all the time :bored:

[Kizzy]

With this whole women abusing men thing, I don't think physcial strength has too much to do with it, it's more what the woman is capable of doing. If she is more prone to violence then she will use weapons or whatever means to abuse the partner. Like everyone has breaks that stops us doing stupid stuff, but if you don't have those breaks then violence can be scarily casual.

You mean like a concience? sorry i heard they are obsolete.

[Jesus.]

I'm angry, dammit. I need people to be rude to. Raaaaaaaaarggggghhhhhhhh.

Someone in this thread needs another nip from a dog.

[InOne]

You mean like a concience? sorry i heard they are obsolete.

I mean someone without a conscience

[Roy Mars III]

Someone has to :nono: I'm tired of lostalex taking over threads all the time :bored:

:worship:

[Marsh.]

With this whole women abusing men thing, I don't think physcial strength has too much to do with it, it's more what the woman is capable of doing. If she is more prone to violence then she will use weapons or whatever means to abuse the partner. Like everyone has breaks that stops us doing stupid stuff, but if you don't have those breaks then violence can be scarily casual.

Exactly and also not all men are big and tough anyway.
I don't want to make a joke of it but it's easy for a stronger woman to overpower a pretty physically weak man.

Just the generalisation of lostalex saying it's impossible for women to abuse men just as seriously because all they do is a light slap and it means your justifying men beating women. Just infuriates me that he makes a mountain (and 10 extra pages on the forum) out of one comment.

[Kizzy]

Are you KIDDING me!!!!! (joke)
Haha i know what you mean inone i agree some people just dont seem to have one do they? It should be obvious that they don't but sometimes it isn't.